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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: Retpara on Monday 21 April 14 10:45 BST (UK)
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Morning all, Could someone please advise me on two counts. I have had help before in trying to search for my Gt Gt Grandfather a Joseph Bayles Winter off members with no success. As Ancestry was free over the weekend I done an extensive search, but could only come up with one possibility. This was on a 1905 departure list from Southampton to New York a Mr J B Winter, but this would have made him 70 years of age also his name appeared under the Foreigner column and single, but as he was Welsh, there was no column for the Welsh people only English, Scotch, Irish and Foreigners, so would the Welsh be classed as Foreigners, just no idea any help greatly appreciated.
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Hi Retpara
Sorry to disappoint you :'(
The man who travelled on the Kronprinz Wilhelm on 4 Jan 1905, from Southampton and arrived in New York on 11 January, was not J B WINTER - but G B WINTER, listed on the NY arrival manifest as: George Bratchwell WINTER. He is listed on the arrival with all the other passengers around him as on the list you found (meaning, it's the same person as you had seen). The writer of the Departure manifest wrote his "G" in a way that does look like a "J" - and if you look at JS THOMSON on that list you found (who is a James) the actual 'J' in JS is quite different. Another actual "G" name mistaken as a "J" on that same page is JH PERLEY who was in full, George Halsey PERLEY.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Many thanks to you Ambly for the information you have given, I did have my doubts. One main thing is you have now confirmed it and I can eliminate this one from my search.
Many thanks again,
Retpara.
(Did you happen to know if the Welsh were classed as Foreigners on these lists).
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More likely a welsh person would be recorded as English than a foreigner
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I saw this earlier, having read your other thread and thought I would post it for information.
1871 5391/ 33 / 6
7 Robert's Square, Merthyr
Eliza Bailey married 29 yrs born Glamorgan Glynn Heath / Neath
Thomas Bailey son 9 yrs born Merthyr
George son 8 yrs born Merthyr
Plus younger children- Ann 5 yrs, Daniel 2 yrs and William 6 months. Also
Mother Ann Davis and Brother Thomas.
I was unsure but have just seen that in 1862 there was a William Youd and an Eliza Davies on the same marriage page and a death for William Youd in 1864.
Regards
Heywood
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Hi Heywood, many thanks for your input hadn't come across this one before, have to check it out as my gt gt grandfather's second marriage was to an Eliza Youd, it was after this marriage they both disappear from any records.
Many thanks,
Retpara.
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If you have the marriage certificate for Eliza Youd, that would confirm the Davies/ Youd theory and it could well be Thomas and George.
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Welsh newspapers online has an advert in an Oct 1863 edition of the Merthyr Telegraph for the auction of three houses, with gardens, adjoining the duke of York Inn in Bridge St. Tenant of one dwelling was William Youd.
I've found him on 1861 in Bridge St- only problem is he has a wife Phoebe who lives until 1901, and the only child of their marriage I can see is called George Alexander.
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I suppose that's why you need a certificate to see if any of this applies.
Yes with the 1864 death, letters of admin are granted to Phoebe so you are right Mabel, thanks.
So who is Eliza Youd?
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Hi Heywood and Mabel, thanks again for your input. It would be the second part of your post regarding Eliza Davies and William Youd, it seems that they are the ones that married. The reason being is that when she married my gt gt grandfather Joseph Winter in 1867 she was classed a widow and her fathers name was William Davies on the marriage certificate. This will be the branch I will have to research later, as the main person I cannot trace is my gt gt grandfather as this is my family name and it is a great pity it might end here.
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For ref: this is the older topic on the search for Joseph
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=540524.0
Hi Retpara,
Because there is such mystery surrounding your Joseph Bayles WINTER……
- His birth/baptism? His whereabouts in the 1841 and 1851 Census?
- The Surname variants he used at different times and why?
- His whereabouts after your last sighting in 1861….or is that, 1867?
- Where was he in 1871, if Eliza (if that's her in the 1871 Census and it certainly seems so) is really still a married woman in that census?
- What became of Eliza and the other children after 1871 : Ann 5, Daniel 2, William 1 - were they Joseph's & how were their births registered?
By confirming that it is Eliza YOUD/DAVIS in 1871 - an excellent find by Heywood - and now quite closely looking into Eliza and those 3 children, is not so much about researching that line at the expense of finding Joseph, but rather looking for any clue, any footprint, no matter how small, as to what happened to Joseph and narrowing down the times in which it may have happened.
Just to clarify, do you already have that 1867 Marriage certificate of Joseph to Eliza? If so, what was his age, occupation and father's name given as?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi Ambly, Many thanks for your interest in trying to help. What I have done is attached cropped copies of the two marriage certificates for Joseph Bayles Winter 1861 and 1867, as I believe you are not allowed to paste full copies on here. I also have him on the 1861 census, but nothing before this date or after his second marriage to Eliza.
Many thanks,
Retpara.
(N.B. If you happen to come across a Joseph Winter also born same year and in Merthyr Tydfil to a John and Margaret Winter (nee Lisles) this is the wrong Joseph Winter thanks).
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2nd Marriage Certificate.
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1st Marriage Certificate.
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Hi again,
Where is he in 1861 please?
Sorry- found him - remembered about Bayles!
Heywood
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now here's something interesting - death report in the Merthyr papers from 27 August 1864, for a James Harrison Youd, in his 54th year, of Bridge St, a silk dyer. It says on Tuesday last, which would have been 23 August, two days later than the date given for William in the probate registry.
I can also see reference to the Bridge St Dye House, next to the Carriers Arms, run by an E H Youd , late of Liverpool, in the 1850s. So there are other Youds about, even if not showing up in the census, who may have a William closer in age to Eliza than the one in Bridge St
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At the moment, it is difficult to see Eliza and the children later - maybe they all emigrated?
I would agree with Ambly's suggestion re the birth certificates of these children. You need to see if Joseph is named and his occupation for any clues.
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Now on Historical Directories -Samuel Youd has taken on the silk dyeing business at 37 Bridge St by 1868. Given he is from the Wem/Ellesmere area as well, i think he must be related. However can' t see he has a son William either
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I can't see a suitable William either ???
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Can't help you with Eliza Davies/Youd, but I have some info for other YOUD mentioned:
William Youd & Phoebe Jackson with son George Alexander Youd
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=kh3&id=I5497
plus Samuel Youd (1815-1874)
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=kh3&id=I6237
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A new thread has been raised on what happened to Joseph
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=785728.msg6408819#msg6408819
but I strongly recommend that new replies be made on this thread as it contains much more information.
In brief (from the 2017 thread):
familysearch has on the 1900 US census in Precinct 1, St Louis, Missouri:
Joseph B Winter age 67 born England (August) Arrived in USA 1870
married 37 years to Sarah A age 66 born England, Arrived in USA 1872
son William G (age 21 born Missouri)
This family is also in St Louis, Missouri on the 1880 census
This Joseph B died 1918 in Missouri.
As this Joseph married Sarah c1863 it is almost impossible (unless he lied on the 1900 census) for him to be the missing Joseph Bayles WINTER.
Philip
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Census information is only as good as the informants knowledge - very often we find there are lots of Idiosyncrasies - dates of birth, marriage dates, immigration dates etc etc.,
There is not enough information contained in the USA finds to determine if this is the correct Joseph Bayles Winter that was found in Missouri - the death certificate gives no parents names at all.
The original poster should have given all the relevant information in the original USA post - this does save duplication and wasted time and effort by those researching.
Sandra
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I saw this earlier, having read your other thread and thought I would post it for information.
1871 5391/ 33 / 6
7 Robert's Square, Merthyr
Eliza Bailey married 29 yrs born Glamorgan Glynn Heath / Neath
Thomas Bailey son 9 yrs born Merthyr
George son 8 yrs born Merthyr
Plus younger children- Ann 5 yrs, Daniel 2 yrs and William 6 months. Also
Mother Ann Davis and Brother Thomas.
I was unsure but have just seen that in 1862 there was a William Youd and an Eliza Davies on the same marriage page and a death for William Youd in 1864.
Regards
Heywood
No Joseph Bayles Winter in sight 1871 ................. The birth of William aged 6 months.......
William Winter - mmn Davies -
GRO Reference: 1870 D Quarter in Merthyr Tydfil Volume 11A Page 337
birth of Daniel under Bailey
Daniel Bailey - mmn Davies
GRO Reference: 1868 J Quarter in Merthyr Tydfil Volume 11A Page 453
birth of Ann under Youd ................
Ann Youd - mmn Davies
GRO Reference: 1867 M Quarter in Merthyr Tydfil Volume 11A Page 416
George Winter - mmn Joseph
GRO Reference: 1863 D Quarter in MERTHYR TYDFIL Volume 11A Page 318
Have these children been found on a later census ???
Sandra