RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: dog_foster_carer on Monday 28 April 14 11:54 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I've just joined this forum and hope someone (or two lol) may be able to help me find some information on Patrick Heffernan. I have not been able to find anything on his parents or ancestry at all. Here is what I have so far:
He may have been born somewhere between 1860-1874 possibly in either the Lithgow/Bathurst/Orange/Dubbo areas or surrounds. I cannot find any birth record for him in the NSW BDM Register although I'm fairly sure he is from NSW. He was either married or began a de facto type relationship with Ada Selmes [1872-1958] in around 1892. Also, I cannot find any marriage record for them in the NSW BDM Register, hence my thoughts that they just lived together. I don't know when or where Patrick died so don't know where to start to look for a death record. He and Ada had seven children and none of them have any birth record in NSW. Their children are:
Sidney Arthur Heffernan [1892-1971] believed to have been born in Lithgow
Olive Maude Brennan nee Heffernan [1895-1964] believed to have been born in Lithgow
Leslie Heffernan [1897-?] No records at all found, so unsure of birthplace
Vespa Raffan nee Heffernan [1899-1985?] (my grandmother) born in Narromine [found on her marriage certificate]
Alice Victoria Emily Mahon nee Heffernan [1902-1973] believed to have been born in Lithgow
Lawrence Charles Heffernan [1903-1951] believed to have been born in Trangie, Narromine
William Sidney Heffernan [1914 or 1916-1982] believed to have been born in Lithgow
The names and dates of the children have been determined from Ada Heffernan's death certificate. I am still unsure if they married or if Ada just used Patrick's surname anyway.
Lawrence Charles Heffernan was the father of Lawrence "Roy" Heffernan (the wrestler) and Terrence Heffernan (who murdered his father in self defence)
I have managed to find the ancestry for his wife Ada Selmes but have come to a complete standstill regarding Patrick Heffernan.
Any help or information regarding Patrick's ancestry would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Julie :)
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Hi Julie,
Not much help but here is Ada's death notice in case you don't have it
SMH 4 June 1958
HEFFERNAN Ada -- June 2 1958 at her residence, 93 Boronia Road, Greenacre, loved mother of Sidney, Olive, Leslie, Alice, Vesta, William and Lawrence (deceased) aged 86 years
regards,
Ros
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Do you have a marriage certificate for one of children of Ada eg.
16792 / 1914 Olive M HEFFERNAN m. Willaim A BRENNAN Lithgow
it would name parents, and birthplace of Olive and occupation of father.
SMH 19 AUG 1929
SELMES - The Relatives and Friends of Mr. and Mrs. E. FITZGERALD,
Mr. and Mrs. R. SWIFT, of Lidcombe;
Mr and Mrs J. WHITTAKER, Toongabbie;
Mrs A. HEFFERNAN and family, of Lithgow,
Mr and Mrs J. SHANKLEY and family, of Lithgow;
Mr and Mrs W. SELMES of Cowra;
Mr ROBERT SELMES, of Hornsby;
Mr and Mrs W. FARRELL and family, of North Sydney
........ Funeral of their late dearly loved FATHER and GRANDFATHER Samuel Charles Selmes to leave the residence of his daughter, Oramzi-road, Girraween, THIS DAY, MONDAY, at 1.56pm for the Church of England Cemetery, Rookwood (Motor Funeral).
WW1 record Sidney Arthur HEFFERNAN #297 AND #2487
POB Portland NSW NOK mother Ada Lithgow St Lithgow
age 22 years 7 months at Aug 1914
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Thanks for your replies.
Wivenhoe: I do have Vespa Heffernan's marriage certificate and it states that she was 21yo at time of marriage on 10Sep1919 so I assume she was born in 1898-1899. On her marriage certificate is states she was born in Narromine NSW. Her mother is shown to be Ada Selmes and her father to be Patrick Heffernan (deceased) - Baker. That is all the information it provides. I still have no further information regarding Patrick.
Thanks for the SMH and WW1 info. I'll check and add and/or confirm these details in my tree.
;D
Julie
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Well, here is one, but the cert. might be unlikely to tell you anymore than you know.
21175/1896
SELMERS, LESLIE
Father not named
Mother:ADA
Registered at DUBBO
Sidney's WW1 records show that he was Roman Catholic so I wonder if it would be worth tracking down the church registers for baptisms. Again though it might not get you any further with Patrick, but I would want to know if he actually existed.
Debra :)
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Hi Debra,
Thanks for that info. I would love to think that it is the same Leslie Heffernan or Selmes that I'm seeking and I'll keep it in mind. It looks like it could be him but I just wonder because even though none of the children had a birth registered, they all (bar Leslie) had a marriage record using the surname Heffernan. It would seem odd that Leslie would be the only one to use his mother's name and not his (supposed) father's. I'll keep looking just in case something turns up or if someone from the Heffernan family reads this and can help.
Cheers!
Julie :)
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In the first post you have suggested birthplaces for the children of Ada.
For Vesper it is from her marriage certificate, but where do the other birthplace suggestions come from? Who are the witnesses on this certificate please?
If you google Selmes/Heffernan/Wallerang you see these families connecting, so it is possible that Patrick does exist.
Ada would hardly be able to have several children, and keep them together with her, without a spouse to support them.
It is interesting that with several sons Patrick does not give his own name to one of them, a common practice at the time.
Do you see the Heffernan sons with a son Patrick...any effort to perpetuate father's name?
Any bakers among the sons...following father's trade?
Absence of the name/occupation pattern I am suggesting does not prove anything, but it would be encouraging to see some evidence of Patrick........and some influence in their lives
Who is the witness for Ada's death certificate?
My interest in this marriage certificate.......
16792 / 1914 Olive M HEFFERNAN m. William A BRENNAN Lithgow
is the proximity to the birth of last child (..by thirteen years?)...William Sidney.
I wonder if it would identify Patrick as deceased?
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NSW Electoral Roll 1913, HARTLEY, polling at Lithgow (Elections were Dec 1913,)
Ada HEFFERNAN, Lithgow St, domestic duties
Cheers, JM
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Hi
there is an obit in the Lithgow Mercury
Main Title: Heffernan, Sidney Arthur [newspaper article]: (Death)
Source: Lithgow Mercury 6 Sep. 1971, p.3
Lithgow Mercury 7 Sep. 1971, p.6
Maybe it may help, there are also other articles for the Heffernan family that may give you a lead
http://library.lithgow.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/MSGTRN/ART/BSEARCH
Cass
ps have you seen the headstone photos http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=8442896
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Usually the father is named first as next of kin if he was around at the time.
WW1
HEFFERNAN Sidney Arthur : Service Number - 297 and 2487 : Place of Birth - Portland NSW : Place of Enlistment - Sydney NSW : Next of Kin - (Mother) HEFFERNAN Ada
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Have you checked the Probate Packets for the various Patrick HEFFERNAN listed at the NSW SRO’s Deceased Estates indexes? http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-online
There’s quite a few, but perhaps of interest is a Patrick HEFFERNAN died 18 Dec 1912 with his real property as Murrumburrah. Likely this would be the same chap as NSW BDM’s index shows as 72 years, death at Young, registered Young. (#18925). I would expect to find a copy of the death cert in any NSW Probate Packet, as it would be a requirement of the NSW Supreme Court to have proof of death before proceeding to prove the application for Probate.
Cheers, JM
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NSW ER 1903 MACQUARIE, polling at Wallerawang
James HEFFERNAN, of Wallerawang, railway fireman
Lucy HEFFERNAN, of Wallerawang, domestic duties
None with Selmes (or similar) surname, and NO Patrick. However, it was NOT yet compulsory to enrol to vote. :D
Cheers, JM
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A wildcard maybe, but.
A Patrick HEFFERNAN married an Ann M at Orange in 1882 and she passed away in 1886. ???
Neil
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;D
NSW ER 1903 ROBERTSON, polling at Trangie
Ada HEFFERNAN, of Trangie, domestic duties
Michael HEFFERNAN, of Trangie, labourer
Patrick HEFFERNAN, of Trangie, engine-driver
Thomas HEFFERNAN, of Trangie, hotelkeeper
Cheers, JM
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Sands 1903 Country Directory
T HEFFERNAN, Trangie Hotel, Trangie
Cheers, JM
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NSW SRO Deceased Estate Index
Thomas HEFFERNAN, of Homebush, retired hotel keeper, DD 11 Oct 1931.
NSW BDM death index has him as aged 78 years, registered Burwood #19454. The index does NOT have his parents given names displayed :(
Cheers, JM
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Lawrence Charles Heffernan [1903-1951] believed to have been born in Trangie, Narromine
William Sidney Heffernan [1914 or 1916-1982] believed to have been born in Lithgow
Quiet a large gap between the last 2 kids. Maybe Patrick died between 1903 and 1914 and William isnt his kid.
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Well, here is one, but the cert. might be unlikely to tell you anymore than you know.
21175/1896
SELMERS, LESLIE
Father not named
Mother:ADA
Registered at DUBBO
NSW Birth certs list the names of the older siblings. However, as there is no father named on the index, it is likely there will not be older siblings (listed) on that cert. BUT :) It ought to give you details about Ada that will help confirm or eliminate her from the Heffernan search.
In that era, the information on these certificates was actually given verbally. The informant would stand at one side of the counter, likely the Court House, and the deputy registrar (likely the Sheriff or perhaps the Clerk of Petty Sessions) would ask the questions and record the info in their local register, a large leather bound book. This book would of course face the Sheriff, and the counters in those (General Admin) offices were quite wide and high. When all the info had been written down (long hand, long before typewriters were readily available and issued by NSW Govt) then the ledger would be swung around and the officer would say "Sign here" and the informant would sign or make their mark. Spelling on these documents was as per the Deputy Registrar's best efforts, based on what he heard and his local knowledge. Selmers is likely how Selmes was pronounced by the Sheriff's office.
Cheers, JM
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A marriage registered DUBBO in 1882 and indexed at NSW BDM :) (index prepared by volunteers reading under natural light in the 1930s, reading longhand script from the summary documents sent through to NSW BDM in 1882)
Patrick KEENEHAN and Ada KEITH. #3688.
I would not rush out and purchase the NSW BDM real deal cert. If this were likely to be my family I would spend some pennies and seek out the official transcription of that 1882 record. Likely it will not have been reconciled by NSW BDM, but it will have the details of the location and denomination and other info that can be followed up.
Here's a thread that may help with the likely blanks on a NSW BDM marriage cert from the 1880s. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Cheers, JM
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NSW ER 1878 THE BOGAN (covers several police districts including Dubbo)
James KIETH (yes, the 'i' is before the 'e') of Barbigal, residence, Talbragar River, Dubbo PD
Terrence KEEF (yes, K not R, the roll is alpha by surname) residence Burrawang, Forbes PD
Cheers, JM
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from post #4
21175/1896 birth SELMERS, LESLIE
I think this certificate would be very useful. With Ada d. 1958 age 82 , b. ~1872, she is 22yrs at birth of first recorded child. It would be good to see her age from this early source, and self-reported, also birthplace, and previous issue. If Ada is a few years older she might have earlier children, and already be married.
Or, although identified as a Selmes (from death notice of Samuel Charles), she might not be born a Selmes or use that name.
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Ada's Birth:
NSW BDM Birth: 6031/1872 Ada SELNIS [sic]; Father- Samuel; Mother- Emily; Armidale
cheers :)
cupoflife
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Re Vespa RAFFAN nee Heffernan
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZM-PHQ notice that the transcriber has transcribed the bride's given name as Vesper, and her place of birth as Norromine and her mother as Ada SALMES.
The marriage at Granville 10 Sept 1919.
In the first post you have suggested birthplaces for the children of Ada.
For Vesper it is from her marriage certificate, but where do the other birthplace suggestions come from? Who are the witnesses on this certificate please?
May I add to the request for info from that marriage cert.... what occupation is given for Vesper and also for her late father, and for her mother? Was she listed as a spinster? Also, who were the witnesses? perhaps family members :) What denomination?
RED POST .... well found cupoflife, it seems very likely :) to be Ada's birth. I have 1870 Electoral Roll, for that district :)
Cheers, JM
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NSW ER 1870 NEW ENGLAND
Charles SELMES residence of Hill Grove.
NSW ER 1878 NEW ENGLAND (changed to amend year .... a JM typo :-[ )
Charles SELMES residence of Armidale.
A sister for Ada .... Rosannah SELMES, registered 1874 at Armidale. (#6614)
I wonder if Charles and Samuel would be related? Or perhaps same person, Charles Samuel or Samuel Charles? I am speculating, sorry :)
Cheers, JM
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Lawrence Charles Heffernan [1903-1951] believed to have been born in Trangie, Narromine
New South Wales Electoral roll 1903
Division Robertson Sub division Trangie
HEFFERNAN Ada Trangie Domestic duties
HEFFERNAN Michael Trangie Labourer
HEFFERNAN Patrick Trangie Engine driver
HEFFERNAN Thomas Trangie Hotel Keeper
Division Ilawarra Sub Division Roberston
SELMES Harriet Robertson Domestic Duties [?Samuel's wife]
Division Macquarie Sub division Oberon
SELMES Charles Oberon Baker
SELMES Emily Oberon Domestic duties
Division Werriwa Sub division Goulburn
SELMES Samuel Wayo Street, Goulburn Attendant
SELMES Laura Wayon Street, Goulburn Domestic duties
Cando
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NSW BDM online index .... ::) is a typical index, with the usual flaws due to mis-reads of original records usually created decades (or longer) before the index was prepared. 19thCentury entries are of course in longhand, ink bleeds, more script, thumbed corners, tears, and general wear and tear led to volunteers preparing the initial index in the 1930s. That index remains the basis of the current online index. :)
Samuel C and Emily SELEMS as parents 1887 birth of Ceci registered at Drake. #35399
There's births Armidale, Bathurst, Drake, Lithgow, Narrabri, Tenterfield and Vegetable Creek for Samuel and Emily and variations on Selmes
Harold, registered Lithgow in 1898 may well have all his older siblings listed on it. #13225. The official transcription is the cheaper and quicker option, and has the same info as a real deal cert.
Cheers, JM
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z2r/
Death of Mr Charles SELMES Snr in 1928.
Headstone for Charles and Harriet
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=7866886
Cando
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http://austcemindex.com/other-sources.php?id=7866887 Amazing, the website is now offering extra hints :) I learn something new everyday at RChat ;D
Cheers, JM
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NSW ER 1878 THE GWYDIR
Samuel SELMES, residence, Narrabri
And from Lithgow City Council website
http://www.council.lithgow.com/cemetery.html (there's a downloadable pdf there for their cemeteries)
Cheers, JM
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Hi Wivenhoe
Vesper's marriage certificate states her father was deceased in 1919 when she married and the witnesses for the marriage were William Frost and Susan Barber. The birth place of the other children would likely have been from other family trees on ancestry.com.
I googled Wallerawang/Selmes/Heffernan and I'll have a better look at those result later, could be very interesting.
I've just checked and as far as I can determine, none of Patrick and Ada's children named any of their sons Patrick. The closest was a daughter Patricia. I don't know how to find out if any of them are in the bakery trade - I will keep looking re this.
Ada's baptism certificate shows she was born and baptised in Armidale, NSW. The informant on Ada's death certificate transcription is her last son William S Heffernan who also lived in Greenacre at the time of her death. After looking more closely it states that her marriage to spouse Patrick Heffernan was at Wallerawang NSW and that she was 21yo at the time. It shows that her father, Samuel Selmes, was a master baker. Perhaps Patrick worked for Samuel at some stage and that is how they met. I will try to follow up on this, any suggestions on how or where to start looking into this would be appreciated.
I'm thinking her son William Sidney Heffernan must have been born illegitimately to another father but used the name Heffernan like the other children.
I think I will request copies of the marriage and death certificate of Olive and the death certificate of William Sidney as see what it tells me.
Thanks so much for your help. Please let me know if you come across anything else or have any ideas on how to further my investigation. :)
Hi majm,
Thanks for that info. I had managed to find that info in my searches. Please keep looking and suggesting! ;)
CassT
Thanks for that obit link, I didn't know about that one! Yes, I did have the headstone pic. Cheers...... ;D
giblet
Thanks for the info, I didn't have that before! :)
majm
I will look into the probate link, hopefully there will be some more info there. Thanks for the 1903 ER info, will follow up on that :)
Neil Todd
Mmmm, very interesting, worth following up methinks! Thankyou! ;)
majm
"quote: NSW Birth certs list the names of the older siblings. However, as there is no father named on the index, it is likely there will not be older siblings (listed) on that cert. BUT :) It ought to give you details about Ada that will help confirm or eliminate her from the Heffernan search." Can you please expand on the bolded part?
cupoflife
Yes, that certainly is Ada's birth record. Father was Samuel Charles Selmes and mother was Emily Whittaker. I did have it but well found, with all the spelling discrepancies it was a hard one to locate lol! ;D
majm
Vespa (Vesper) Heffernan's marriage certificate shows that she was a tailoress, lived in Good Street, Granville and was a spinster at the time of her marriage to Alfred. Her father, Patrick, is listed as a baker, no occupation is listed for her mother Ada. Samuel Charles Selmes [1852-1929] was Ada's father and his father was Charles Samuel Selmes [1814-1894].
I can't thank everybody enough for all your help. I have quite a bit of follow up to do with all this info. I appreciate all your efforts very much!!!!!! THANKYOU!!!! ;D
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majm
"quote: NSW Birth certs list the names of the older siblings. However, as there is no father named on the index, it is likely there will not be older siblings (listed) on that cert. BUT :) It ought to give you details about Ada that will help confirm or eliminate her from the Heffernan search." Can you please expand on the bolded part?
Civil registration for births commences in March 1856 in NSW. And the questions asked of the informant include seeking the details of the previous issue of the marriage. So the older siblings are listed, usually by name, in chronological order as their age is noted too. If they had succumbed before the birth of the baby being registered, then the record notes their gender only. ADD, sometimes the cert only gives number and gender for the then living older siblings. (I have examples from my own NSW centric tree showing both alternatives).
Sometimes the registrar recorded all the names, but if the mother was not married (ie she did not give the registrar the details of when and where she married, no proof required) then in the 19thCentury, her older children were not eligible to be included on their younger siblings birth registrations, as their father was (at law) not known, and therefore the father's given name is not displayed at the online index. This can happen even if the father was the informant.... So, on those historic bdm records, often there's birth certificates that contain info as to when and where the baby's parents married, and when we search, there's no record found of a likely marriage. But when the online index does not give a father's name, I would not expect the birth cert to provide details of when and where the mother married the baby's father.
I hope this helps explain. :)
Cheers, JM
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Hi Julie,
I am going to State Records Office on Thursday so will have a look at the 1912 probate (and photograph if relevant). JM's instincts are usually correct :)
Sorry my list is quite long so I can't look at all possibilities this visit.
cheers,
Ros
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Ros,
That is so kind of you, and way more than expected. Thankyou so much. It would be good if something regarding the true Patrick turns up. Excuse me for this but :-*
Julie ;D
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Ros, the online index has it as P Heffernan, and it is only in the remarks as Patrick. So, if you pre-order, :) that would be P. Heffernan Remarks "File now at Z08091 [20/7004]. "Z" entry lists name as Patrick and locality as Murrumburrah. I have not found the Trove notice :-X for the Probate.
Fingers crossed .... I have been known to be way off on the wrong tangent.... :)
Cheers, JM
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Thanks JM :) (I'm so slow these days :( )
And a pleasure to help a dog foster carer, Julie :)
cheers,
Ros
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Do we know who the following Patrick HEFFERNAN was?
Reefer’s Hotel, Wagga, Monster Reef Junee, Patrick HEFFERNAN 1869-1870
http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~surreal/NSWW/Hotels/publicans-licences-N-R.html If this is Ada’s Patrick, then he would be many years older than Ada.
NSW ER 1913 CASTLEREAGH, polling at Trangie
Edith Emily HEFFERNAN, of Trangie, domestic duties
Thomas HEFFERNAN of Trangie, Hotelkeeper
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16826090 , Obit (SMH SMH 14 Oct 1931) gives no family history info. He was a pioneer of Trangie District, late of the Trangie Hotel, Trangie, and Honorary President of Trangie Jockey Club. Mrs Heffernan survived him. He was interred Rookwood RC.
Family notices:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16817376 SMH 13 Oct 1931.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16802231 SMH 21 Oct 1931 Probate notice (retired hotelkeeper)
Julie, please don’t order the real deal certs, but spread your pennies around and instead order the Official Transcriptions of any of the three official agents appointed by NSW BDM. You get the same info, already transcribed, and without the fancy priced certificate. Better still, they can send it to you as an email attachment.. http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html#transcription
Cheers, JM (Ros, I ought to have typed it up as P Heffernan in the first instance, you are not slow, it was my sloppy wordsmith skills getting sloppier ::) )
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Do we know who P Heffernan was?
Mr P Heffernan and his ventriloquism and P Heffernan, ploughman pronouncing the ploughs first class…. From the Narromine News and Trangie Advocate Fri 28 Jan 1898
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/99227082
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/99227069
Thomas becomes a grandfather (perhaps?, the cutting implies Mrs H’s son’s surname is Mooring, likely Leonard G MOORING and Sarah OC TRUE married the previous year at Narromine #13244)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/119994494 Narromine News & Trangie Adv. 29 April 1925
Thomas and his good wife retire
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/119992397 Narromine News & Trangie Adv 25 May 1927
27 years in Trangie
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/119987326 Narromine News & Trangie Adv 1 June 1927
NSW BDM marriage
1906 Thomas Heffernan and Edith E MOORING marriage registered Sydney #6455 I wonder who the witnesses were for that 1906 marriage, fingers crossed that Thomas asked Patrick and Ada Heffernan’s family members to be official witnesses. I think Edith was previous married to Alfred S MOORING, and that her son Leonard was born 1899, registered Dubbo #20539 I can see a death indexed 1901 for an Alfred S MOORING, (#1978)
I hope I am not getting too far off track, but I am trying to confirm or eliminate Thomas HEFFERNAN as a possible relative of Patrick HEFFERNAN …. Afterall, there’s that 1903 Electoral Roll entry showing Ada, Patrick and Thomas all at Trangie. Of course, no street address, so possibly all at different households in the small community likely around the Railway Station.
Cheers, JM
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I've just ordered transcripts of Olive Heffernans marriage and death, Sidney Arthur Heffernan's death and William Sidney Heffernan's marriage. I'm hoping there will be some further info on them. I'll have to wait and see if on Olive's marriage cert it says that Patrick is deceased or not. If so, he couldn't be the one that died in 1931. It would be interesting if the T Heffernan in the trove obit was Patricks brother as he would've been born around 1852 - about the right timeline.
No, I don't know who the Patrick Heffernan, Reefer Hotel, Wagga is but it could possibly be him or his father perhaps?
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I hope I am not getting too far off track, but I am trying to confirm or eliminate Thomas HEFFERNAN as a possible relative of Patrick HEFFERNAN …. Afterall, there’s that 1903 Electoral Roll entry showing Ada, Patrick and Thomas all at Trangie. Of course, no street address, so possibly all at different households in the small community likely around the Railway Station.
Cheers, JM
Funny you should say living around the railway station as cando mention in their post:
New South Wales Electoral roll 1903
Division Robertson Sub division Trangie
HEFFERNAN Ada Trangie Domestic duties
HEFFERNAN Michael Trangie Labourer
HEFFERNAN Patrick Trangie Engine driver
HEFFERNAN Thomas Trangie Hotel Keeper
I feel that this Patrick Heffernan, engine driver may be the one as the timline of the birth of the children is right. Is there anyway of finding out railway personnel records from around that time?
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:) Might be worthwhile asking NSW SRO if they have records of NSW Government Railways employees for pre WWI. I am aware that there's many records that have not yet been indexed, there's many that are part indexed, and there's indexes that are yet to be readied for uploading to their website.
Here's their contact email etc info http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/contact-us/contact-us I find using the general enquiry email option is often the best way.
Agh, Cando has kindly confirmed my post :) ;) :) ;D :D ;D
NSW ER 1903 ROBERTSON, polling at Trangie
Ada HEFFERNAN, of Trangie, domestic duties
Michael HEFFERNAN, of Trangie, labourer
Patrick HEFFERNAN, of Trangie, engine-driver
Thomas HEFFERNAN, of Trangie, hotelkeeper
Cheers, JM
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Well, SRNSW has some NSWGR employee records for that era .... ;D
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Entity.aspx?Path=\Series\19551 but this is for the Southern District. Trangie is on the Main Western Line, and from a geographical point of view, is basically Western Division. But, fingers crossed, the Western Line records were retained too.
Cheers, JM
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Hi Julie,
I don't think the Patrick HEFFERNAN who died in 1912 is yours. There was no mention of wife or de facto or any children and a vague mention of a gratuity from a brother (unnamed). However the will was made shortly before his death while he was in hospital and he left everything to the nurse (Sister Mary) who was caring for him. I did photograph it in case I missed something.
Interestingly (from the point of view of NSW research) the deceased estate which MAJM directed us to was missing - in fact all the deceased estates which had paid duty in February 1913 were missing. The lady on staff did ask them to check in the bins either side but yes they were missing. She then asked if I had checked for a probate packet and I said there was no mention online. No there wouldn't be she said as none of the probate packets from 1890 to 1928 are indexed online and need to check the microfiche index. This I did and found a probate reference and retrieved the probate packet. I hadn't realised that there was this huge gap in online index before. :o (But yes it says so in heading if you read it properly)
I also expressed my surprise that there was both a deceased estate (potentially ;D) and probate packet available as I thought it was one or the other. The lady confirmed that probate packets contain a will and possibly death certs etc as well as the same info as in deceased estates (valuations) so they don't bother to keep deceased estates if there is a probate packet these days. But in the early days they kept both.
I learnt a lot today :D :)
But sadly not much help to you :(
cheers,
Ros
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Thanks for looking into it Ros, at least I can cross him off the list of possibilities. Hopefully one day another descendent of Patrick's, who may have been kept more up to date on the family history than I was, may join this forum and my questions may possibly get answered then. I hope I'm still here to see it lol! Again, thanks for your efforts, and I'm glad it wasn't a total waste of time and that you got some good 'other' information to use in the future.
Regards
dfc
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I can add a couple more possibilities each time I visit State Records - about every four - six weeks. Who knows we may be lucky :)
cheers,
Ros
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I can add a couple more possibilities each time I visit State Records - about every four - six weeks. Who knows we may be lucky :)
cheers,
Ros
That would be wonderful, you're a legend, thanks so much! :D
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http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-deceased-estates-and-related-records/indexes-to-deceased-estate-files
"Z series files
When you have located an entry with a 'Z' number in the item column, record both the 'Z' file number and the [20/-] item number. This is enough information to request the file in the Western Sydney Reading Room. We cannot determine whether the file has survived until the container (held at the Western Sydney Records Centre) is checked."
Ros, the online index has it as P Heffernan, and it is only in the remarks as Patrick. So, if you pre-order, :) that would be P. Heffernan Remarks "File now at Z08091 [20/7004]. "Z" entry lists name as Patrick and locality as Murrumburrah. I have not found the Trove notice :-X for the Probate.
Fingers crossed .... I have been known to be way off on the wrong tangent.... :)
Oh dear, NO deceased Estate, and Probate Packet it seems points to JM off on the wrong tangent.... very sorry Ros, and of course, very sorry Julie. :-[ Was there a death cert found at SRNSW? Would it be # 18925 (aged 72 years, registered Young)
Fingers crossed that there's new info on the transcriptions....
Cheers, JM
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No need to be sorry JM - I learnt a lot and we eliminated one possibility. It was a good a guess as any :) He was a labourer near Murrumburrah and was in the Young Sacred Heart Hospital near his death. There wasn't a death cert included.
cheers,
Ros
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It just amazes me that somebody can be this invisible. No record of his birth that we know of, no record of his marriage, no birth record of his kids, (I even wrote to NSW BDM and had them conduct a search for Vespa Heffernan's birth record - zilch) and if there is a death record, how do we find the date/place with nothing else to go on. Does this sort of thing happen very often? So frustrating! ???
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I'm just wondering if someone can point me in the right direction. I've just been looking at Patrick's father-in-law's death certificate and it states that he was a baker and that his father before him was a baker. On my grandmother's marriage certificate is states that her father's (Patrick) occupation was a baker too. Is there possibly some way of searching down that track to see if there is a link? Perhaps Patrick was apprenticed to his father-in-law to learn the trade and maybe that's how he and my great grandmother Ada met. I feel that they may have met in the Tenterfield, Bathurst or Lithgow areas as Ada was still having siblings born around the time I feel she met and partnered up with Patrick. Is there a bakers union/guild that would have records re apprenticeships or employment for bakers around the 1890s?
I figure it's worth a try.
dfc
I forgot to mention, I'm waiting on transcriptions of two death certs and two marriage cert of some of his kids, hoping that may tell me something but still may be a week or so away before I get them.
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Yes, happens OFTEN .... particularly 1870s to 1930s .....
The paperwork system went something like this
1. You went to town to get the essentials, and went around to the court house to register your new baby. You gave the info verbally across a wide counter in the Sheriff's admin area.
2. Depending on who was on duty depends on how accurate the info was recorded. If the Sheriff or his offsider was a long standing local, who attended same Church as you, then pretty good chance your info is easily found by us in the 21st century. If the clerk asking the questions was new on the job, a poor speller, and perhaps not a local, then the info can be harder to find as there was a great deal of creativity with spelling.
3. So you answer all the questions, your own schooling was not of a university standard (compulsory primary schooling starts in NSW in late 1870s) so you have no idea WHAT was actually recorded, as you are not able to read 'upside down' as the clerk kept the big book facing him while he wrote the answers down.
4. The book is swung around to face you. You are holding your baby, watching your other children running wild, your husband is about to get into an argument with someone else you spot, so you SIGN or make your mark, trusting that the info is as per your own verbal statements just made.
THEN thats not all.....
There's the back office .....
Once every quarter (beginning April, beginning July, beginning Oct, and beginning Jan) the Deputy registrar is MEANT to transfer that info and remit the Quarterly returns to the Registrar General. BY THE POSTAL SYSTEM, to Sydney. Remember the Bush Rangers, well, they also nicked the ROYAL MAIL BAGS.... not just the Gold Dust.... So quarterly returns could get lost right from the beginning of civil registration. Then there's floods, fires, etc. Then there's lazy clerks .... and NO protocols for following up NON receipt of summaries.... And then there's summary returns that were received and not actioned..... eg poor handwriting, lack of staff numbers, or simply staff avoiding making the effort....
Then there's the indexes.... The current online index stems from the index that volunteers made in the 1930s .... yes, the Early Church Records date from 1787 .... indexed in the 1930s .... ink bleeds, torn pages, misplaced records .....
We are lucky there is ANY index ::) ::)
Marriages were meant to be registered at the local registrar's by the clergy ....
and Deaths ... well .... the householder was meant to report the death to the registrar so that a pro temp certificate could be provided to the funeral director for the burial. If a sudden death then the police became involved and sometimes, despite the Sheriff's office usually being the registrars centre too (same person/s doing dual roles), "they forgot" ....
I think you should consider the marriage I mentioned earlier, and once you have an official transcription of it, then try the following thread's tips
KEENEHAN (yes, could be long hand transcription errors) KEITH It is from 1882, and registered Dubbo DISTRICT. NSW BDM districts were very large in those rural areas, and were different from the electoral districts, the lands districts, the pastoral districts, the police districts.... The Colonial Administration was very cumbersome, and no department had same geographical boundaries as the next one. (#3688, Patrick KEENEHAN and Ada KEITH, registered Dubbo 1882)
I am suggesting that Keenehan could be transcription error for Heffernan and Keith could be similar for Selmes. I have seen far worse. You know Ada's parents .... and it is possible there's going to be hurdles with blanks on the 1882 rural marriage. DON'T PANIC ...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=660501.0
Cheers, JM
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A marriage registered DUBBO in 1882 and indexed at NSW BDM :) (index prepared by volunteers reading under natural light in the 1930s, reading longhand script from the summary documents sent through to NSW BDM in 1882)
Patrick KEENEHAN and Ada KEITH. #3688.
I would not rush out and purchase the NSW BDM real deal cert. If this were likely to be my family I would spend some pennies and seek out the official transcription of that 1882 record. Likely it will not have been reconciled by NSW BDM, but it will have the details of the location and denomination and other info that can be followed up.
Here's a thread that may help with the likely blanks on a NSW BDM marriage cert from the 1880s. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Cheers, JM
Fingers crossed :)
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Me again with another thought.
I looked up one of Patrick's grandchildrens electoral record, this grandchild died a couple of years ago but there is still a current Heffernan at the same address as was listed in 1980. I found the phone number in Telstra white pages, would it be improper of me to ring them explaining who I am, what I'm doing and asking them if they know anything about Patrick?
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No not improper but I would be inclined to write a letter - it gives them time to digest the information and decide what to do. I have found that when I have included scans of family photos of ancestors that it is more successful as it grabs their interest (even if they weren't previously interested in family history).
But who knows? Worth a try :)
cheers,
Ros
(beautiful dog with such lovely eyes :) )
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If that was ME you had found in the white pages, I would much prefer you to write me a letter, (typed would be OK) a short note, asking me if I was related to ......... and giving them a very short outline of how you fit into this particular family (careful you don't give too much info as you too are entitled to privacy) and offering me a stamped addressed envelope to reply to you. You could of course, give your phone number in your letter.
Then IF I were to get such a letter, I would DROP EVERYTHING and phone you up, and we would have a very long yarn on the phone. ;D
That way, you are giving THEM the chance to absorb some of the info that you are finding. :) and have absorbed already.
Cheers, JM
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Can I share :
Back in 1997, I thought I had found a "new" rellie .... So I wrote such a letter, enclosing a photo of my late Grandparents and their brother, a favourite Uncle of mine. with this "new" rellie .... So, I got a lovely hand-written reply, confirming they knew the identity of everyone in the photo. I was overjoyed, so I phoned one of my rellies (my Uncle in the photo) to share my joy. They chuckled and chuckled away, and finally they said "You wrote to your own first cousin, He bought THE FARM ..... But we were going to tell you at Christmas"
Cheers, JM
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cheers,
Ros
(beautiful dog with such lovely eyes :) )
Thanks Ros,
That's my beautiful Zoey, she is just the apple of my eye along with my other iggy Beau. I'll put a pic of him up one of these days lol!
And thanks for your reply. I will take your and jm's advice and spend the weekend composing a letter to that person and a couple of others I found. I don't have any pics as mine is a very small and distant family. But it's worth a try as I'm obviously finding it hard to track down any information at all regarding Patrick. If he truly is as elusive as I'm finding, perhaps they won't know anything either, but here's hoping!!!
dfc
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A marriage registered DUBBO in 1882 and indexed at NSW BDM :) (index prepared by volunteers reading under natural light in the 1930s, reading longhand script from the summary documents sent through to NSW BDM in 1882)
Patrick KEENEHAN and Ada KEITH. #3688.
I would not rush out and purchase the NSW BDM real deal cert. If this were likely to be my family I would spend some pennies and seek out the official transcription of that 1882 record. Likely it will not have been reconciled by NSW BDM, but it will have the details of the location and denomination and other info that can be followed up.
Here's a thread that may help with the likely blanks on a NSW BDM marriage cert from the 1880s. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Cheers, JM
Fingers crossed :)
I just went to look at this one and checked Ada's birth and she was born in 1872 so not old enough to be this Ada Keith, unless brides of 10yo were allowed back in the day lol :o So, gotta keep looking.
Were most marriages performed in churches in regional/rural areas in the 1890s or was there some sort of registry office/chambers or court house that performed the ceremony as well? If I wanted to check out church records, how would I start to go about that?
dfc
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NSW (not sure of elsewhere)
a) Bride 12 years and Groom 14 years were minimum ages at that time. As minors they needed consent to be given their behalf as they were not legally old enough to give their own consent.
b) It has never been a requirement that a clergyman needed a Church Building to conduct a marriage. Clery on a circuit carried their parish registers in special saddles in the 19th century. Marriages often in private homes even in hotel parlours.... if the community was still fund raising for their church building. Diocese (or equiv.) archives often have their completed parishes registers.
Cheers JM
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NSW (not sure of elsewhere)
a) Bride 12 years and Groom 14 years were minimum ages at that time. As minors they needed consent to be given their behalf as they were not legally old enough to give their own consent.
Cheers JM
Well, I never :o lol!!!!!!! I've learnt another new thing today. This forum is gonna keep me on my toes, methinks..... :P
dfc
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I'm back again,
Well, I took your advice and wrote a letter to two of the Heffernan families I found and I have had a response from one of them. I've also got transcriptions of some of the marriage and/or death certificates of Patrick's children [and I'm also contemplating getting transcriptions of the rest].
So, I've found no further information regarding Patrick as yet but I may be getting closer. It turns out that Harold Heffernan [1918-1964], who is Patrick's first grandson from his oldest son Sidney Arthur Heffernan aka Snow, was a councilman for the Lithgow City Council for a number of years prior to his death and he was selected to attend the Duke of Edinburgh conference in 1956 at Oxford University in England. Harold and his wife Ysobel [aka Billie] also met the Royals when they visited the area in 1954.
On the certificate transcriptions that I have received so far, all the kids have stated that they were born in Lithgow or in Trangie/Portland/Narromine which are in the Lithgow/Dubbo general areas. It'll be interesting to see where the others state they were born when I received the rest of the transcriptions.
These transcriptions state that Patrick was either a labourer, station hand, machinist or baker and on Vespa's marriage certificate in 1919 it states Patrick is deceased but on all the other transcriptions, nothing is mentioned about him being deceased. Also, on Olive's marriage certificate it states in the notes that "the consent of Ada Heffernan, being the mother of the bride, was given in writing to the marriage, father out of NSW".
Another thing, Patrick's supposed last son William Sidney Heffernan's [1914-1982] second marriage transcription states that his parents are "Sidney Heffernan and Ethel Simpson" and not 'Patrick Heffernan and Ada Selmes' as first thought although William was the informant on Ada Heffernan nee Selmes's death transcription and he states he is Ada's son.
Also, on Ada's death certificate it states the she and Patrick were married in Wallerawang when she was 21. So, it's all a bit confusing as there are no birth records that I can find for any of their kids.
Is there anyone in the Lithgow and/or Narromine/Trangie areas that may be able to either have a look or ask at the local libraries for information regarding the Heffernans as I think that because Harold was so well known there that there could/should be some references/history regarding his family? Or can someone advise me on how to proceed with finding out from either the council or the library if there is any information on the family available? Or is there a local Lithgow/Trangie/Narromine family history type association that could help?
Sorry for the long read but I figured I should put as much info as I've found out here.
Thanks for reading
dfc
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Hi there,
May I please ask you to list the NSW BDM docs you are now holding.... Perhaps into three groups (births if any, deaths, marriages) with the leading surname and the NSW BDM ref no. and the year.
If you get the chance, perhaps also, check these again, looking at the "informant/s" relationship to the person ..... so for example, is Patrick the informant for all/some/none, and when did he stop being the informant (perhaps indicating when he left the relationship).
Re Ada's death cert info stating her marriage, with the informant stating he was her son.... I wonder if he was her grandson? . It is important to remember that info given to the funeral director (the one who lodges the paperwork) is only as reliable as the informant's own knowledge, which if a family member is info given at a time of grief. There was no systematic check of the info. NSW BDM's function was (still is to) record the info provided to it and to store the info safely, it was not to verify that the info was accurate.
Lithgow family history group: http://www.lisp.com.au/~ldfhs/
http://dubbofamilyhistory.org.au/index.php
Portland is near Lithgow.
Trangie and Narromine are near Dubbo.
Lithgow is NOT near Dubbo.
Olive HEFFERNAN married William BRENNAN in 1914. and Vesper HEFFERNAN married Alfred RAFFAN in 1919. So, it seems that their father, Patrick died 1914-1919, but perhaps not in NSW.
These transcriptions state that Patrick was either a labourer, station hand, machinist or baker and on Vespa's marriage certificate in 1919 it states Patrick is deceased but on all the other transcriptions, nothing is mentioned about him being deceased. Also, on Olive's marriage certificate it states in the notes that "the consent of Ada Heffernan, being the mother of the bride, was given in writing to the marriage, father out of NSW".
Another thing, Patrick's supposed last son William Sidney Heffernan's [1914-1982] second marriage transcription states that his parents are "Sidney Heffernan and Ethel Simpson" and not 'Patrick Heffernan and Ada Selmes' as first thought although William was the informant on Ada Heffernan nee Selmes's death transcription and he states he is Ada's son.
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Long walk from Lithgow to Trangie :o Ada Selmes was born 1899 at Gunning to Spencer and Annie along with a few more siblings. so if William was born 1914 then Ada was only 15. Not impossiblebut. There seems to be a strong marriage tie between the Selmes ladies born in other areas but married in the Lithgow, Dubbo, Narromine area? What is the connection because their is no marriage listed for Ada Selmes, ANYWHERE, did she use another first name?
Lithgow council and or family history society would have something on your Heffernan if he held a position there.
Neil
Whoops crossed messages Majm :-[
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Birth
HEFFERNAN, William S.
Yr. 1914
Father-Not listed
Mother Ethel E.
At Lithgow
Reg. 34019
Death
HEFFERNAN, Sidney Arthur
Yr 1971
Father Patrick
Mother Ada
At Lithgow
Reg 64878
Sue
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OK, here is the list
Ada Heffernan nee Selmes -
Birth: Armidale 17Oct1872 to Samuel Selmes and Emily Whittaker; baptism date 27Oct1872; NSW BDM Registration No. #6031/1872; Name is incorrectly registered as Selnis instead of Selmes.
Marriage: no NSW BDM records found
Death: Greenacre, Sydney 02Jun1958; NSW BDM Registration No. #9500/1958; States she was married to Patrick Heffernan at age 21 at Wallerawang. Children of marriage: Sidney 65, Olive 63, Leslie 61, Vespa 58, Alice 56, Lawrence (Deceased), William S 42; Informant: William S Heffernan, son, 40a Noble Avenue, Greenacre; Buried 04Jun1958 at RC Cemetery, Rookwood.
Patrick Heffernan -
no information whatsoever other than he is named as the father on the following certificates/transcriptions.
Sidney Arthur 'Snow' Heffernan -
Birth: no NSW BDM record found.
Marriage: NSW BDM Registration No. #15592/1916; haven't yet received transcription.
Death: Lithgow 04Sep1971; States place of birth is Portland, NSW; Patrick Heffernan (engineer) father/Ada Selmes mother; Children: Harold Charles (deceased 1918-1964), Allan Arthur 50 [1921-2012]; Informant: Eileen Gladys Heffernan nee Johnson, widow, Lithgow; Buried 06Sep1971 Lithgow Catholic Cemetery.
Olive Maude Heffernan -
Birth: no NSW BDM record found.
Marriage: St Paul's Church, Lithgow 21Oct1914 to William Brennan; Age 20; Born Lidsdale via Lithgow; Patrick Heffernan (labourer) father/Ada Selems mother; Note: The consent of Ada Heffernan, being the mother of the bride, was given in writing to the marriage, father out of NSW. NSW BDM Registration No. #16792/1914; Witnesses: H G Streamer, R E Swift.
Death: 07Jul1964 at Wybenia Private Hospital, Neutral Bay; Widow, age 71; Birth Place: unknown; Patrick Heffernan (station hand) father/Ada Sellem mother; Children: William A L 49, Jean 45, Oliver (deceased), Adrian (deceased); Informant: W Brennan, son, 130 Wollongong Rd, Arncliffe; Buried 09Jul1964 Roman Catholic Cemetery Rookwood.
Leslie Heffernan -
Birth: no NSW BDM Records found. Birth year calculated from Ada's death certificate.
Marriage/Death: no records found at all
Vespa Heffernan -
Birth: no NSW BDM records found. I had NSW BDM do a search for a birth record for Vespa for between 1895-1904 incl and the result was 'no trace could be found'.
Marriage: 10Sep1919 at Holy Trinity Church, Granville, Sydney to Alfred James Raffan [1892-1965]; Age: 21yo Spinster; Birthplace: Narromine NSW; Patrick Heffernan (deceased/baker) father/Ada Selmes mother; NSW BDM Registration No. #8779/1919; Witnesses: William Frost, Susan Barber.
Death: no NSW BDM record found - I'm guessing she died between 1984-1990. Children: James Stuart 1920-2012, Malcolm Robert 1921-abt 1988; Paul 1924-1987
Alice Victoria Emily Heffernan -
Birth: no NSW BDM records found
Marriage: Lithgow in 1920 to Victor Hamilton Mahon, age 18; NSW BDM Registration No. #8341/1920; Transcription not yet received
Death: 26Aug1973 at Main Beach, Gold Coast; Age 72; Place of birth: Trangie, NSW; Patrick Heffernan (labourer) father/Ada - mother; Children: Victor Sidney 52, Jack Leslie 51, C**** C**** 47, Patricia June 41; Informant: Harold Cohen, son-in-law, Main Beach, Gold Coast; Buried 28Aug1973 Southport Cemetery.
Lawrence Charles Heffernan -
Birth: no NSW BDM records found.
Marriage: 1924, Lithgow to Ida Madge Arkinstall; NSW BDM Registration No. #3279/1925; Transcription not yet ordered.
Death: Transcription not yet ordered; NSW BDM Registration No. #17328/1951; Children: Lawrence Roy [1925-1992], Terrence [1927-2011].
William Sidney Heffernan -
Birth: no NSW BDM records found but estimated dob from Ada's death certificate is 1914
Marriage: 1947 in Canterbury, Sydney to R***** M******* H*****, age 33; NSW BDM Registration No. #2458/1947;
Divorce: 1950
Marriage: 1951 in St John's Church, Campsie, Sydney to Patricia Elise Davis, age 36; NSW BDM Registration No. #15292/1951; **Both names are mis-spelled in the BDM registry**; Place of birth: Lithgow NSW; Sidney Heffernan (machinist) father/Ethel Simpson mother; Witnesses: N Myles, J Stuart Raffan (my uncle)
Death: 19Jul1982 in Sydney, age 68; Transcription not yet received; NSW BDM Registration No. #201677/1982; Sidney Heffernan father/ Ethel mother; Children: A*****, B****, E****, K***, D*****; Buried: Rookwood Cemetery.
So, even though William, as the informant, states on Ada's death certificate that he is her son, clearly he has stated different parentage on his marriage certificate. I was also wondering if he was Ada/Patrick's first sons child and he was raised as one of their own kids but the person who responded to my letter doesn't seem to know anything about this. She was married to one of Sidney Arthur's sons.
If you want me to attach copies of the transcriptions/certificates that I already have, let me know.
Hope this is what you wanted JM
thanks for helping
dfc
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Oops, please check your most recent post, and remove the names of anyone who you cannot confirm as NO LONGER LIVING.
My poor wordsmith skills have led you to post all that info. I apologise.
Cheers, JM
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Birth
HEFFERNAN, William S.
Yr. 1914
Father-Not listed
Mother Ethel E.
At Lithgow
Reg. 34019
Death
HEFFERNAN, Sidney Arthur
Yr 1971
Father Patrick
Mother Ada
At Lithgow
Reg 64878
Sue
Hi Sue
Thanks for that re William Sidney, I didn't know for sure his birth date or the reg no.
dfc ;D
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Oops, please check your most recent post, and remove the names of anyone who you cannot confirm as NO LONGER LIVING.
My poor wordsmith skills have led you to post all that info. I apologise.
Cheers, JM
Sorry JM
Have checked and most of the named people have passed, only a few of the children still alive so have updated their names with ****
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Please don't apologise to me. It was my post that led you to type up all that info. I am the one at fault, but you have fixed, so I thank you. :)
I have pulled thinking cap down harder ::) and working on where was he 1913-1919 anywhere outside of NSW .... now where would a chap go, during WWI if he was removing himself from NSW, leaving his wife in Lithgow. I cannot find him on Dec 1913 electoral rolls for NSW, and this is months before the Archduke was shot in end of June 1914, with hostilities quickly following on from that. ::) Patrick H is elusive.
Cheers, JM
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Yes JM
I've almost run out of thoughts on where to seek info about Patrick, it's like he is a ghost. A few minutes ago I rang a parish church in Trangie to see if they may have baptism records from around 1900 for the Heffernan family. The priest? said he'll have a look to see how far back the parish records go and for me to ring back next week to find out. At least if I can get baptism info about Patrick's kids, it may give me a little more info to go on. Fingers crossed!!! Maybe I'll try a few different churches in a few possible areas and hope at least one of them pans out!
dfc
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So I've just rung the Lithgow Family History Society and they are going to send me a form to fill in as much info as I know and then get a researcher to have a look at what info they may have re the Heffernans. Fingers crossed that this turns up something!
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The lad born in 1914 errr .... on Ada's dc, his age is given as 42 ..... Ada born in 1872 .... Errrr .... There's a public tree at Ancestry with a transcription of her death cert uploaded there. Ada is shown there as aged 86, when she died (2 June 1958 1958 - 42 = 1916 ). Burial at Rookwood Roman Catholic section. Also, I think Olive Heffernan was married in the Anglican church Lithgow, which I thought was St Pauls.
Need to pull thinking cap down further,
Cheers, JM
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When you send your reply to the family history group, please consider sending clear (without any handwritten comments) copies of the transcriptions, as these can contain details to cross match other researchers interests. For example, one of my own interests is sorting out which rural deputy registrars were sending handwritten registrations to Sydney HQ and when did each get a typewriter, and also a typist/e. (It is in the 1950s, and NSW BDM's online website has it as 1952, but umm, I know there's some deputies who were sending handwritten entries to Sydney as late as early 1960s ... )
So the 1958 transcription uploaded to Ancestry has a note re the Rev'd for that Burial. The spelling on the register must be of some concern (perhaps slightly different from other certs for possibly same Rev'd), for the transcriber has noted “MINISTER IS CLEARLY RECORDED AS M DONOUGHUE IN THIS REGISTER (ENTRY IS TYPED)” Family history group members who undertake local lookups can often spend hours discussing quite trival matters, and consequently find the key to unblock many a brickwall. :) so copies of transcripts should be invaluable to the group. :)
Cheers, JM
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I may have given you the link earlier, not sure, but here is the online link to Lithgow Cemetery records.
http://www.council.lithgow.com/pdfs/140325_CemeteryList.pdf
Cheers, JM
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The lad born in 1914 errr .... on Ada's dc, his age is given as 42 ..... Ada born in 1872 .... Errrr .... There's a public tree at Ancestry with a transcription of her death cert uploaded there. Ada is shown there as aged 86, when she died (2 June 1958 1958 - 42 = 1916 ). Burial at Rookwood Roman Catholic section. Also, I think Olive Heffernan was married in the Anglican church Lithgow, which I thought was St Pauls.
Need to pull thinking cap down further,
Cheers, JM
That'd probably be my tree. I've attached copies of all the transcriptions, certificates, State Records Office (divorce) and Australian Archives/Australian War Memorial (army service) docs that I could find. I'm waiting on transcriptions for William Sidney's death and Alice Victoria's marriage to arrive. And I think I'll order transcriptions for Lawrence's marriage and death, Sidney Arthur's marriage and William Sidney's first marriage and see if they can offer any extra info. Surely something's gotta give sooner or later lol!
Olive was married at St Paul's Lithgow.
dfc
ETA: I just looked and found that I haven't uploaded all my records to ancestry yet, so am doing so now.
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What do you know about the following person
L HEFFERNAN, with a locality as Bowenfels (on the index as Bownefels) died 26 Feb 1900, Probate 12 June 1900? I cannot find a corresponding NSW BDM death registration .... so it may be pointing to a death outside of NSW ... perhaps a generation older than the elusive Patrick, or perhaps it is just a co-incidence .... the surname and Bowenfels being so very close to but on the eastern side of Lithgow whereas Wallerawang is on western side. ???
NSW SR http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-deceased-estates-and-related-records/indexes-to-deceased-estate-files and
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/
Also, is there a connection between your elusive chap and the 77 year old chap Patrick Heffernan who died at Condobolin? .... Condo is much closer to Dubbo/Trangie/Narromine than to Lithgow. There's a Probate Packet for this chap at NSW SRO, index has his DD as 30 May 928, Probate granted 27 July, 1928. NSW BDM online index #9966 gives "(Carlisle) " suggesting to me that while the deceased's parents given names are NOT known to the informer, the informer has provided other family names/clues to the funeral director to register. I will leave it to you for follow up through Trove etc.
Cheers, JM
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What do you know about the following person
L HEFFERNAN, with a locality as Bowenfels (on the index as Bownefels) died 26 Feb 1900, Probate 12 June 1900? I cannot find a corresponding NSW BDM death registration .... so it may be pointing to a death outside of NSW ... perhaps a generation older than the elusive Patrick, or perhaps it is just a co-incidence .... the surname and Bowenfels being so very close to but on the eastern side of Lithgow whereas Wallerawang is on western side. ???
NSW SR http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-deceased-estates-and-related-records/indexes-to-deceased-estate-files and
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/
Also, is there a connection between your elusive chap and the 77 year old chap Patrick Heffernan who died at Condobolin? .... Condo is much closer to Dubbo/Trangie/Narromine than to Lithgow. There's a Probate Packet for this chap at NSW SRO, index has his DD as 30 May 928, Probate granted 27 July, 1928. NSW BDM online index #9966 gives "(Carlisle) " suggesting to me that while the deceased's parents given names are NOT known to the informer, the informer has provided other family names/clues to the funeral director to register. I will leave it to you for follow up through Trove etc.
Cheers, JM
still looking re above
I don't know anything at all about the probate packets stuff. I've just found one for Patricks son Lawrence Charles : Series 4-399390; Lawrence Charles Heffernan - Date of Death 02/06/1951, Granted on 14/01/1953; 13660 Probate packets starts by 01 Apr 1817 ;
I figure there would be nothing about Patrick but could there be any clues in there somewhere?
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Yes, there can often be clues in those files. Sometimes there can be disputes among those who were expecting to be a beneficiary, sometimes the will may be poorly worded and it is unclear who is to be the beneficiary. Sometimes the apparent beneficiary needed to supply proof of birth/baptism/parents etc and sometimes that proof stayed with the files when they were moved from the NSW Supreme Court to the Archives Office. ;D
I will alert an RChatter who may be able to add the files to a possible TO DO list that they MAY have at hand for a possible visit in the next several weeks.
Cheers, JM
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No problem :) planning to go on Monday
cheers,
Alerted Ros
adding : I notice there are 2 probate packets for the same man - I wonder if that means there was a dispute or ...?
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Thanks for that JM
I will keep my fingers crossed that it reveals the first genuine clue about Patrick!
dfc
Oh, and a big thanks to you too rosball ;D
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Birth
HEFFERNAN, William S.
Yr. 1914
Father-Not listed
Mother Ethel E.
At Lithgow
Reg. 34019
Death
HEFFERNAN, Sidney Arthur
Yr 1971
Father Patrick
Mother Ada
At Lithgow
Reg 64878
Sue
There is a second registration for William Sidney with the cross reference R as annotation beside the reg number.
SIMPSON, William S
Yr 1914
Mother Ethel E SIMPSON
Father not listed
Lithgow
Reg 34019 R
This of course makes it clear the birth was outside a marriage.
However, it is also clear that William Sidney used the surname HEFFERNAN and he registered to vote in that name in 1954 at Bankstown NSW.
It looks likely from the records that Ethel married and had children.
There was no marriage between HEFFERNAN and SIMPSON.
Sue
Sue
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Birth
HEFFERNAN, William S.
Yr. 1914
Father-Not listed
Mother Ethel E.
At Lithgow
Reg. 34019
Death
HEFFERNAN, Sidney Arthur
Yr 1971
Father Patrick
Mother Ada
At Lithgow
Reg 64878
Sue
There is a second registration for William Sidney with the cross reference R as annotation beside the reg number.
SIMPSON, William S
Yr 1914
Mother Ethel E SIMPSON
Father not listed
Lithgow
Reg 34019 R
This of course makes it clear the birth was outside a marriage.
However, it is also clear that William Sidney used the surname HEFFERNAN and he registered to vote in that name in 1954 at Bankstown NSW.
It looks likely from the records that Ethel married and had children.
There was no marriage between HEFFERNAN and SIMPSON.
Sue
Sue
Wow Sue, that is so interesting and sort of what I suspected all along. I reckon he was the illegitimate son of Sidney Arthur Heffernan (Patrick and Ada's first born son) and Ethel Simpson, the dates align, as Sidney would've been 22yo when William was born. It's making sense now, but Sidney's daughter in law doesn't seem to know anything about it so it must've been kept hush hush. I think I'll update my tree now that you have confirmed all that for me.
Yay, finally an answer to one of my questions.
THANKYOU!!!!!!
dfc
BTW, how do you find 1914 NSW births as I can only view up to 1913?
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Were people able to change their name without paperwork in the 50s/60s? Or do you think that perhaps Patrick/Ada adopted William knowing he was their grandchild? Is there anyway of finding out? Or could Sidney Arthur, being his birth father, have adopted him so he could be added to Williams birth certificate?
ETA: And Sue, is this the Ethel Simpson you mean #20236/1893 and who did she marry and when?
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Were people able to change their name without paperwork in the 50s/60s? Or do you think that perhaps Patrick/Ada adopted William knowing he was their grandchild? Is there anyway of finding out? Or could Sidney Arthur, being his birth father, have adopted him so he could be added to Williams birth certificate?
Marriage
Reg 15592 Yr 1916 HEFFERNAN Sidney A
To JOHNSON Eileen G
At BATHURST
A child was born to this couple in 1918 and registered at Lithgow. So Sidney was still there.
I think it would have been difficult for the new daughter in law not to notice in a rural community that Ada HEFFERNAN had a little 2 year old at the time of this marriage. :-X
Regarding use of a name. I believe is not illegal in Australia to call yourself whatever you wish as long as it is not done for purposes of deception or fraud.
There were no formalised laws for adoption in the times we are looking at.
BTW, how do you find 1914 NSW births as I can only view up to 1913?
I think this was discussed between you and another chatter on another thread earlier this month.
Sue
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ETA: And Sue, is this the Ethel Simpson you mean #20236/1893 and who did she marry and when?
I cannot say if that is her birth.
There are two marriages in the name Ethel E Simpson and you can see them for yourself on http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/
Both these women (who by the way are not the same identity) went on to have children.
Sue
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Were people able to change their name without paperwork in the 50s/60s? Or do you think that perhaps Patrick/Ada adopted William knowing he was their grandchild? Is there anyway of finding out? Or could Sidney Arthur, being his birth father, have adopted him so he could be added to Williams birth certificate?
Marriage
Reg 15592 Yr 1916 HEFFERNAN Sidney A
To JOHNSON Eileen G
At BATHURST
A child was born to this couple in 1918 and registered at Lithgow. So Sidney was still there.
I think it would have been difficult for the new daughter in law not to notice in a rural community that Ada HEFFERNAN had a little 2 year old at the time of this marriage. :-X
Regarding use of a name. I believe is not illegal in Australia to call yourself whatever you wish as long as it is not done for purposes of deception or fraud.
There were no formalised laws for adoption in the times we are looking at.
BTW, how do you find 1914 NSW births as I can only view up to 1913?
I think this was discussed between you and another chatter on another thread earlier this month.
Sue
Sorry, I obviously wasn't very clear, the daughter-in-law I mean is Sidney Arthur's second sons second wife and she wasn't on the scene until the late 1950s early 1960s when William was in his late 30s. She has mentioned William but not in the sense that he was a half brother-in-law to her but more of an uncle type relation, unless I misunderstood her. I'll check with her again but I'm trying not to be insensitive and pushy, seeing as how I've only just found her this week - it's hard to know how to ask such a difficult question as it relates to her recently deceased husband. Is William her husbands half brother or his uncle - maybe she does know and still wants to keep it quiet. I'm hoping to hear from a couple more of her rellies in the near future so perhaps more answers will come then.
Quote from: dog_foster_carer on Today at 08:03
I cannot say if that is her birth.
There are two marriages in the name Ethel E Simpson and you can see them for yourself on http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/
Both these women (who by the way are not the same identity) went on to have children.
Sue
Thanks Sue, that's what I thought. I'll wait and get Williams birth transcriptions (there will be two of them won't there?) and hopefully that will tell me who she is.
Cheers!!
dfc :)
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Regarding names.
While not illegal then and now, it cannot be used on a government form, you may have noticed on them a section on alias's. "Have you ever been or do you use another name other than your birth name."It is still frowned on, as normally it is for "DUBIOUS" reasons :o
Also as Sue says, it cannot be done to confuse or defraud or to escape legal custody under the law.
Neil
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I've received a copy of the death certificate for Patrick's son Lawrence Charles Heffernan and it states that in 1951 Patrick was a grazier (although he must be getting on in years by then). There is no mention of him being deceased like there is on his daughter Vespa's marriage certificate. The informant on Lawrence's death certificate is his grandson Harold and I would've thought he would have known if Patrick was deceased or not. So the dilemma continues. I'm still waiting on further transcriptions regarding Patrick's childrens deaths and/or marriages.
Also, this was included in Lawrence's probate packet. I don't know what it means and I was hoping someone here could decipher it for me please. See attached.
dfc
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In NSW, between the years cited, no registered adoption of a child took place by a man called Lawrence Charles Heffernan, the husband of Madge Ida Heffernan.
Sue
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In NSW, between the years cited, no registered adoption of a child took place by a man called Lawrence Charles Heffernan, the husband of Madge Ida Heffernan.
Sue
Was that a normal type of search that was done prior to finalising probate? Or any ideas why this type of search would've been done as he and his wife had two of their own kids? I just don't understand why a search for him having adopted someone was undertaken as there is nothing in any of the family info that I've found already to suggest that he adopted someone. Would he have been able to adopt someone without the rest of his family knowing about it? I just find it odd.... ???
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Yes they frequently appear in probate packets of that era - I've seen a few (all with negative finds). I think it was a standard form to be completed.
cheers,
Ros
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Yes they frequently appear in probate packets of that era - I've seen a few (all with negative finds). I think it was a standard form to be completed.
cheers,
Ros
Thanks Ros,
that explains it then. This is the first probate packet I've seen so it was just a little strange to see but I understand now.
See, you are all a wealth of information!!!
Thanks again
dfc :)
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If you google Selmes/Heffernan/Wallerang you see these families connecting, so it is possible that Patrick does exist.
Ada would hardly be able to have several children, and keep them together with her, without a spouse to support them.
It is interesting that with several sons Patrick does not give his own name to one of them, a common practice at the time.
Do you see the Heffernan sons with a son Patrick...any effort to perpetuate father's name?
Any bakers among the sons...following father's trade?
I was trolling through NSW BDM and came across a death registration for a Patrick Heffernan and for some reason bought the transcription. It turns out that I got lucky as it was for a Patrick Heffernan (aka Wade), mother = Ada Selmes, father = Patrick Heffernan, estimated year of birth 1896, and the informant was W Heffernan, nephew, 40A Noble Avenue, Greenacre. It seems this is the elusive Leslie Heffernan that was listed on Ada's death certificate. So it seems that Patrick did have a son named after him and I assume that Leslie was his middle name and was the name used by family members.
Absence of the name/occupation pattern I am suggesting does not prove anything, but it would be encouraging to see some evidence of Patrick........and some influence in their lives
Who is the witness for Ada's death certificate?
My interest in this marriage certificate.......
16792 / 1914 Olive M HEFFERNAN m. William A BRENNAN Lithgow
Transcription received. Patrick Heffernan, father listed as a labourer, not noted as deceased but a note states that "The consent of Ada Heffernan, being the mother of the bride, was given in writing to the marriage, father out of NSW".
is the proximity to the birth of last child (..by thirteen years?)...William Sidney.
I wonder if it would identify Patrick as deceased?
It seems that the only time Patrick is noted as deceased is on his daughter Vespa's marriage certificate in 1919 and his son Lawrence's marriage certificate in 1924. No mention of his living/death status is mentioned on any of his other children's marriage/death certificates.
dfc
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I've been ringing about once a week to ten days for about a month or so to a local parish church in the Trangie/Narromine area asking the Reverend if he or his admin officer could possibly have a look to see if they have any baptism records available for the period 1890-1920ish. And if so, could they please look to see if any records exist for the Heffernan family. Every time I ring he states he hasn't had time to have a look, or is finding some excuse for not having an answer - well it seems like that to me. I said as much this morning (politely) when I spoke to him and said that if it is too much trouble or you don't have the time, please just tell me so and I won't bother ringing him again. He was so rude to me and said if you want to ring, fine, if you don't, fine - I've got to go now and just hung up whilst I was still talking. Are members of the clergy often as rude and as unhelpful as this one? I'm wondering if it's worth bothering to phone again.
dfc
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I've been ringing about once a week to ten days for about a month or so to a local parish church in the Trangie/Narromine area asking the Reverend if he or his admin officer could possibly have a look to see if they have any baptism records available for the period 1890-1920ish. And if so, could they please look to see if any records exist for the Heffernan family. Every time I ring he states he hasn't had time to have a look, or is finding some excuse for not having an answer - well it seems like that to me. I said as much this morning (politely) when I spoke to him and said that if it is too much trouble or you don't have the time, please just tell me so and I won't bother ringing him again. He was so rude to me and said if you want to ring, fine, if you don't, fine - I've got to go now and just hung up whilst I was still talking. Are members of the clergy often as rude and as unhelpful as this one? I'm wondering if it's worth bothering to phone again.
dfc
Hi there,
Many I please gently suggest that the main function of clergy has very little to do with looking up family history records, and in rural districts they often are responsible for parishes that cover vast geographical expanses, requiring them to drive for many hours between the meeting places for their local community.
I find it is a better option to send a snail mail enquiry, enclosing a self addressed stamped envelope (bigger than the DL size, so at least a C5 size one, or bigger) and a copy of the NSW BDM certificate that I am asking for the further details from the relevant church register.
Clergy are humans, just like you and me. Family History matters are of course important to family history buffs, but these are WANTS rather than NEEDS, and so clergy are likely to find phone enquiries about family history matters from persons who are not regulars within the community served by that clergy to errrr..... fall into the WANTS category rather than the NEEDS category.
So, perhaps a snail mail letter, with the documentation supporting the enquiry, along with perhaps even a couple of sheets of blank paper, and definitely an envelope with a stamp and your postal address may well be very well received.
It can sometimes take months and months for the clergy to reply. Sometimes this is simply because of the pressure of their workload, other times it can be the delay in locating the exact register, or perhaps in the lack of priority they assign to phone call requests for "look up" info about those who are no longer living.
"I've got to go now" does mean just that ! So that is why the clergy hung up even though you were still talking. I have retired clergy as elderly rellies. When they have to go, they have to go. :) :) :) ;D
Cheers, JM
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Thanks JM
I fully understand what you are saying and I don't disagree. But, after the time he spent talking with me he could just as easily have said something like - "We get a number of enquiries like this. Unfortunately time constraints can often get in the way of fulfilling these type of requests. It would be preferable if you could send me/us a letter with the information you are wanting, and we will get to it as soon as time permits". Or something like that anyway. I gave him an out when I said to just let me know if it isn't possible..... As much as I understand they are very busy and do have more important things to be doing, courtesy doesn't cost them anything!
But thanks for making me smile at your last para..... did definitely lighten the moment for me lol!
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So, I've just sent copies of all the Heffernan kids marriage and death certificates, photocopies of newspaper articles re a couple of his grandkids along with a spreadsheet of Patrick and Ada and their kids and grandkids (with birth/marriage/death info) to the Lithgow Family History Society Inc. asking them to do some local research into the Heffernan clan, but especially regarding information about Patrick.
Can anyone think of anything else I can try.
I've noticed that Patrick was declared deceased on two of his kids marriage certificates:
1919 - Vespa
1924 - Lawrence Charles
although he wasn't noted as deceased on Alice Victoria's marriage certificate in 1920 nor on Sidney Arthur's marriage certificate in 1916.
I've looked on NSW BDM and there are two Patrick Heffernan's with a death registration between 1914 (Olive Maude's marriage where he wasn't noted as deceased)-1919 (noted as deceased on Vespa's marriage cert):
1965/1914 - Camden
5320/1915 - Junee
Does anyone think it would be worthwhile to buy a transcription of one or both of these registrations? Honestly, I really feel the brick wall regarding Patrick is getting higher the more info I get about his family! ???
dfc
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:)
So, go ahead, write the letter, enclose photocopy/ies, and ask the questions.... and provide the SSAE and then cross your fingers and do not hold your breath.... The register could be with the Bishop, or it may have being used as a door stop in past years and in need of a good conservator. :)
Just put the past several weeks of phone calls down to some "got to go now" hiccups and let the records surface.
It is entirely possible that the family were not of the denomination you are looking at, in the time frame you are looking at....
But here's links to the two diocese offices of each of the two main denominations. I would expect that the 'full' parish registers would be sent to their respective head offices for safe keeping once they are full.
It is also important to remember that these parish registers are NOT public registers, and contain information that is recorded in accordance with Church Laws.
Roman Catholic
http://www.wf.catholic.org.au/ (Wilcannia-Forbes) includes Trangie and Narromine BUT NOT Dubbo, Wellington, Bathurst, Lithgow, etc which are http://www.bathurst.catholic.org.au/
Anglican
http://www.bathurstanglican.org.au/Parishes/Parishes.html includes Trangie and Narromine
and Lithgow is in the Sydney Diocese http://www.sydneyanglicanarchives.com.au/
Cheers, JM
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Don't forget that Patrick was noted as OUT OF NSW on themarriage cert for one of his daughters, so that gives you a start date for searching for his death .... he was known to be still alive when Mum gave consent for that marriage :)
I cannot find which daughter, but from memory was it Olive, marrying in 1914 at St Pauls, Lithgow (Anglican).
Cheers, JM
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:)
But here's links to the two diocese offices of each of the two main denominations. I would expect that the 'full' parish registers would be sent to their respective head offices for safe keeping once they are full.
It is also important to remember that these parish registers are NOT public registers, and contain information that is recorded in accordance with Church Laws.
Roman Catholic
http://www.wf.catholic.org.au/ (Wilcannia-Forbes) includes Trangie and Narromine BUT NOT Dubbo, Wellington, Bathurst, Lithgow, etc which are http://www.bathurst.catholic.org.au/
Anglican
http://www.bathurstanglican.org.au/Parishes/Parishes.html includes Trangie and Narromine
and Lithgow is in the Sydney Diocese http://www.sydneyanglicanarchives.com.au/
Cheers, JM
Thanks once again JM
I'll definitely follow up with your suggestions as advised above. And I promise I won't hold my breath lol!
I know I need to learn some patience as I guess all ancestry buffs want answers now rather than having to wait, like me. As I'm so new to this family history stuff, I haven't had to wait as long for answers as many on this forum have, I'm sure. Just keep reminding me 'Patience is a virtue'. Maybe one day I'll get some and be a lot more virtuous lol!
Thanks again for your help and advice, very much appreciated.
dfc
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I've looked on NSW BDM and there are two Patrick Heffernan's with a death registration between 1914 (Olive Maude's marriage where he wasn't noted as deceased)-1919 (noted as deceased on Vespa's marriage cert):
1965/1914 - Camden
5320/1915 - Junee
Does anyone think it would be worthwhile to buy a transcription of one or both of these registrations? Honestly, I really feel the brick wall regarding Patrick is getting higher the more info I get about his family! ???
dfc
These are some articles on the Junee chap 1915 and the Camden chap 1914:
Patrick HEFFERNAN - Junee:
Cootamundra Herald 21May1915 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/139524053
Daily Advertiser 19May1915 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/141938634
Freeman's Journal 27May1915 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/115308947
Albury Banner and Wodonga Express 21May1915 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/108150149
Patrick HEFFERNAN - Camden:
Freeman's Journal 29Jan1914 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/111290178
The Southern Record and Advertiser 24Jan2014 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/125777977
The Bega Budget 24Jan2014 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/130342821
SMH20Jan1914 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15478555
cheers :)
cupoflife
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Hi there,
Some initial online searchings brings up :
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search/Search.aspx?Path=%2FqueryEntry.m%3Ftype%3Ddeaths
There’s a 1941 death in New Zealand for a Patrick HEFFERNAN aged 77 years
NZ Archway has a New Plymouth probate file on their index for a Patrick HEFFERNAN, 1941. .
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
RChatters on the NZ Board may know about gaining access to that file. From memory, a new thread “WELLINGTON Probate File enquiry” and then the file no. and name etc in the Opening post may help confirm/eliminate your chap (and of course, include a link back to this thread too)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=299.0
https://www.qld.gov.au/law/births-deaths-marriages-and-divorces/family-history-research/
There’s a 1925 death in Queensland for a Patrick HEFFERNAN, aged 89 years, born Ireland
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/20919635 Brisbane Courier 23 Feb 1925 seems to eliminate this chap.
Then from TROVE
1924 Detectives investigating disappearance of a Patrick HEFFERNAN aged 66 years, in Tasmania
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/51348669 Examiner 26 June 1924
Cheers, JM
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I've looked on NSW BDM and there are two Patrick Heffernan's with a death registration between 1914 (Olive Maude's marriage where he wasn't noted as deceased)-1919 (noted as deceased on Vespa's marriage cert):
1965/1914 - Camden
5320/1915 - Junee
Does anyone think it would be worthwhile to buy a transcription of one or both of these registrations? Honestly, I really feel the brick wall regarding Patrick is getting higher the more info I get about his family! ???
dfc
These are some articles on the Junee chap 1915 and the Camden chap 1914:
Patrick HEFFERNAN - Junee:
Cootamundra Herald 21May1915 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/139524053
Daily Advertiser 19May1915 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/141938634
Freeman's Journal 27May1915 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/115308947
Albury Banner and Wodonga Express 21May1915 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/108150149
Patrick HEFFERNAN - Camden:
Freeman's Journal 29Jan1914 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/111290178
The Southern Record and Advertiser 24Jan2014 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/125777977
The Bega Budget 24Jan2014 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/130342821
SMH20Jan1914 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15478555
cheers :)
cupoflife
thanks for that cupoflife
you have definitely saved me some money, thankyou!!!!!
I've thoroughly looked at every one of those links you posted above and can now exclude them from the Patrick Heffernan I'm looking for.
Cheers!
dfc
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Hi there,
Some initial online searchings brings up :
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search/Search.aspx?Path=%2FqueryEntry.m%3Ftype%3Ddeaths
There’s a 1941 death in New Zealand for a Patrick HEFFERNAN aged 77 years
NZ Archway has a New Plymouth probate file on their index for a Patrick HEFFERNAN, 1941. .
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
RChatters on the NZ Board may know about gaining access to that file. From memory, a new thread “WELLINGTON Probate File enquiry” and then the file no. and name etc in the Opening post may help confirm/eliminate your chap (and of course, include a link back to this thread too)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=299.0
https://www.qld.gov.au/law/births-deaths-marriages-and-divorces/family-history-research/
There’s a 1925 death in Queensland for a Patrick HEFFERNAN, aged 89 years, born Ireland
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/20919635 Brisbane Courier 23 Feb 1925 seems to eliminate this chap.
Then from TROVE
1924 Detectives investigating disappearance of a Patrick HEFFERNAN aged 66 years, in Tasmania
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/51348669 Examiner 26 June 1924
Cheers, JM
Thankyou once again JM for your help and advice.
I have now just put the query request on the NZ board asking for help regarding the 1941 Probate Packet for a Patrick Heffernan.
I agree the Queensland chap isn't my Patrick Heffernan.
The missing 1924 Tasmanian could be a possibility. Is there any further newspaper articles printed about him? Was he found? Did he have an obit in Tassie?
:) dfc
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:) Trove is free to search, and the digitised newspapers section allows for volunteers to help with the transcribing of the OCR offered text.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/
The missing 1924 Tasmanian could be a possibility. Is there any further newspaper articles printed about him? Was he found? Did he have an obit in Tassie?
Perhaps you could consider extending your online searching at Trove to include "Paddy" or "Snowy" Heffernan.... :)
Cheers, JM
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Sidney Arthur HEFFERNAN, born Portland, NSW joined AIF 17 August 1914. He was twenty two years and no months. (Later in July 1915 it has him as 22 years and 11 months) He was a Machinist by trade. His next of kin was his mother Mrs Ada HEFFERNAN, Lithgow St, Lithgow. He was Roman Catholic. The file is available to view online. I think you will find that it is unusual for the next of kin to be “Mum” when “Dad” is still an active member of the family.
So, I think Patrick and Ada had at least informally separated.
Patrick, NOT as NoK in August 1914, and still NOT NoK in July 1915
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx
https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=133541
https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=133540
Cheers, JM
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Sidney Arthur HEFFERNAN, born Portland, NSW joined AIF 17 August 1914. He was twenty two years and no months. (Later in July 1915 it has him as 22 years and 11 months) He was a Machinist by trade. His next of kin was his mother Mrs Ada HEFFERNAN, Lithgow St, Lithgow. He was Roman Catholic. The file is available to view online. I think you will find that it is unusual for the next of kin to be “Mum” when “Dad” is still an active member of the family.
So, I think Patrick and Ada had at least informally separated.
Patrick, NOT as NoK in August 1914, and still NOT NoK in July 1915
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx
https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=133541
https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=133540
Cheers, JM
Thanks JM
I did have this info about Sidney on my tree but one thing I hadn't considered that you mention is that mum being listed as the next of kin could likely mean that Patrick and Ada had separated. I just thought that she was probably named next of kin as dad may have been away working. I sort of wondered about Patrick and Ada being split up but then thought probably not as no divorce record could be found. I'm assuming that if this is the case it will make it much harder to trace/find him???? I almost feel like giving up with frustration but I won't. Perhaps I need a break from thinking about him for a while lol!
Thanks again, every new comment gives food for thought. ;)
dfc
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Roman Catholics and Divorce simply do not mix, so it is more likely to be a separation. He is not found on the NSW Dec 1913 electoral roll and still not around in July 1915 .... and not noted as deceased with Sidney marries Dec 1916.
When Sidney married Eileen on 9 Dec 1916, the reverse side of the mc shows that Patrick give his place of birth as Portland NSW, and that he was aged 23 years, His father was Patrick HEFFERNAN, an Engineer, Trangie and his mother was Ada SALMES. The printed form clearly required the Clergy to indicate against the names of the parents any who were known to be deceased
“ † If deceased, the fact should be stated”
Add a snip, I think it reads Engineer Trangie for Patrick's occupation. What do other RChatters think?
Noting NO sign of the †
Cheers, JM
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I agree that it does JM.
The funny thing is I thought at around that time Patrick was an engine driver for the railways and lived in Trangie. A couple of months ago I sent an email to the Railway Department asking for information about employment records for that period of time and place for Patrick, and of course, I haven't heard anything back from them as yet.
Any other suggestions lol!
dfc
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A couple of months ago I sent an email to the Railway Department asking for information about employment records for that period of time and place for Patrick, and of course, I haven't heard anything back from them as yet.
NSWGR (As in Government Railways) records may well be with the NSWSR (State Records) so perhaps a general enquiry email to NSW SR asking if they hold employment records for NSW GR employees and if so, for what years, and how to access these.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/contact-us/contact-us (usually takes three to four weeks for a reply)
Cheers, JM
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A couple of months ago I sent an email to the Railway Department asking for information about employment records for that period of time and place for Patrick, and of course, I haven't heard anything back from them as yet.
NSWGR (As in Government Railways) records may well be with the NSWSR (State Records) so perhaps a general enquiry email to NSW SR asking if they hold employment records for NSW GR employees and if so, for what years, and how to access these.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/contact-us/contact-us (usually takes three to four weeks for a reply)
Cheers, JM
Would you believe it! I have just received a reply from my enquiry to the Railways. Unfortunately it doesn't make much sense to me and it seems that I would need to go in to their offices to view the records, or order records via their copy service (although I don't know how I'm supposed to know which records I would want seeing as how I can't see them) or alternatively hire a professional research agent all of which seems difficult and/or costly.
Other than that, the suggestions they offered are all the things that I've been doing to search for him anyway such as NSW BDM, SRO Archives Investigator etc.
So, unfortunately I think I'll forgo this line of investigation.
dfc
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Hi dfc,
Now, don't panic, I am not advocating you spend up on more NSW certs/transcriptions but ...
Have you considered following up on ALL HEFFERNAN on the NSW ER as eligible to vote at Trangie in Dec 1903?
To save others going back of the thread
NSW ER 1903 ROBERTSON polling at Trangie (eligible to vote : 21 and over, and British Subjects)
Ada HEFFERNAN, of Trangie, domestic duties
Michael HEFFERNAN of Trangie, labourer
Patrick HEFFERNAN of Trangie, engine-driver
Thomas HEFFERNAN of Trangie, hotel-keeper
So I wonder about Michael :)
I can see a Michael HEFFERNAN, 17 May 1912, in a spot of bother at the NSW SR index…. He was at Nymagee … And from the NSW Police Gazettes “First Offenders Discharged …. Michael HEFFERNAN, (70) tried at Dubbo Quarter Sessions sheep stealing… So that chap was 70 years of age. I wonder if he was the father/uncle/cousin/or otherwise related to Thomas the hotel keeper?
And then there’s the following
NSW ER 1903 MACQUARIE, polling at Wallerawang
James HEFFERNAN, of Wallerawang, railway fireman
Lucy HEFFERNAN of Wallerawang, domestic duties
Could this be part of the same Heffernan family as Patrick ? (Yes, I checked the Portland polling place too, NO sightings of Heffernan .... ::) he is elusive :) and Nymagee .... NO sightings of Heffernan )
Cheers, JM
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Michael HEFFERNAN aged 70 .... just one sheep :) and he was first offender, and hungry and was able to raise sureties.... :)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15341350 SMH 5 June 1912
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/101280160 Leader 6 June 1912
Cheers, JM
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Hi dfc,
Now, don't panic, I am not advocating you spend up on more NSW certs/transcriptions but ...
Have you considered following up on ALL HEFFERNAN on the NSW ER as eligible to vote at Trangie in Dec 1903?
To save others going back of the thread
NSW ER 1903 ROBERTSON polling at Trangie (eligible to vote : 21 and over, and British Subjects)
Ada HEFFERNAN, of Trangie, domestic duties
Michael HEFFERNAN of Trangie, labourer
Patrick HEFFERNAN of Trangie, engine-driver
Thomas HEFFERNAN of Trangie, hotel-keeper
So I wonder about Michael :)
I can see a Michael HEFFERNAN, 17 May 1912, in a spot of bother at the NSW SR index…. He was at Nymagee … And from the NSW Police Gazettes “First Offenders Discharged …. Michael HEFFERNAN, (70) tried at Dubbo Quarter Sessions sheep stealing… So that chap was 70 years of age. I wonder if he was the father/uncle/cousin/or otherwise related to Thomas the hotel keeper?
And then there’s the following
NSW ER 1903 MACQUARIE, polling at Wallerawang
James HEFFERNAN, of Wallerawang, railway fireman
Lucy HEFFERNAN of Wallerawang, domestic duties
Could this be part of the same Heffernan family as Patrick ? (Yes, I checked the Portland polling place too, NO sightings of Heffernan .... ::) he is elusive :) and Nymagee .... NO sightings of Heffernan )
Cheers, JM
Thanks JM
That 1903 ER registration you mentioned is what made me think to contact the NSW SR.
I would like to follow up on all the Heffernans but atm with all the info that has come to light with the Heffernans and the Rawson families (and others) I feel I'm having information overload, or more likely it feels like brain drain. Seeing has how this family history research stuff is so new to me (only four months since I started) I do tend to sometimes find it difficult to determine what to do or where to go next and how to get there. I've learnt so much about my ancestry and how to search for them, especially with the wonderful help from all the RChatters here, you guys are so knowledgeable and helpful, a BIG thankyou to you all.
That being said, I appreciate your tips above JM but unfortunately I'm at a loss on how to follow up on this information, unless you mean to write/phone the Hotel in Trangie about Thomas. Perhaps I should take a week or so away from the ancestry stuff and give the brain a rest and maybe I'll come back re-inspired for more. I think the fact that Patrick is proving to be so elusive is disheartening me, I know it shouldn't, but it's starting to get hard to stay positive.
If there are any tips on where to start with the info you have given me above, welcomed.
Thanks again everyone,
dfc
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I'm at a loss on how to follow up on this information, unless you mean to write/phone the Hotel in Trangie about Thomas. Perhaps I should take a week or so away from the ancestry stuff and give the brain a rest and maybe I'll come back re-inspired for more. I think the fact that Patrick is proving to be so elusive is disheartening me, I know it shouldn't, but it's starting to get hard to stay positive.
May I suggest you keep separate notes of each of the 'bits and pieces' sightings of various 'possibles' perhaps on a pin board or similar and 'ignore' them for that week or so, and then when you come back to them, you consider them as simply jigsaw pieces, belonging to at least one jigsaw, but possibly several different jigsaws. You do not yet know how many pieces need to be found for any of the jigsaws, and the cover on the box does not give you any picture to follow. :)
Every family history buff has 'brickwalls' that are challenging, and some endure for decades and even generations. :) These brickwalls can be so confusing, sometimes until the very last brick in the wall is found/cleaned up/minutely examined, or othertimes until the very last brick in the wall is removed. But the journey in seeking to crack any brickwall down can be full of grand experiences, so the journey is often much longer than the collapse of the wall. :)
Family History is addictive and the addiction, once entrenched is there for life, and can be inherited even..... I inherited my addiction from both sides of my family.... :) and on one side, I have private family papers which show the addicition goes back errrr .... generations :) Now, errr .... some of my younger set are definitely showing signs of inheriting that same addiction. Others 'tolerate' the addiction, and some ... well, they have very different hobbies. Of course, not everyone inherits the addiction, some are able to choose to become addicted to family history.
Cheers, JM
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I just wanted to update this thread and thank everyone for their help earlier on. I have since found the elusive Patrick Heffernan, confirmed with the very generous assistance of Rootschatter "rosball". Wow, what a journey it's been looking for this very secretive man. But, it has let me find another family of relatives that we knew nothing about. Anyway, mystery solved!!!!
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Regarding Patrick Heffernan, he was my great grandfather. i think the reason he and Ada may have never married is because Ada was part aboriginal.
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Regarding Patrick Heffernan, he was my great grandfather. i think the reason he and Ada may have never married is because Ada was part aboriginal.
Hi, Welcome to RootsChat.
I think Ada and Patrick did marry. :) in 1882, and there has been a misread of his surname. I posted about this earlier.
JM
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Here is the post re Ada and Patrick's marriage.
JM
A marriage registered DUBBO in 1882 and indexed at NSW BDM :) (index prepared by volunteers reading under natural light in the 1930s, reading longhand script from the summary documents sent through to NSW BDM in 1882)
Patrick KEENEHAN and Ada KEITH. #3688.
I would not rush out and purchase the NSW BDM real deal cert. If this were likely to be my family I would spend some pennies and seek out the official transcription of that 1882 record. Likely it will not have been reconciled by NSW BDM, but it will have the details of the location and denomination and other info that can be followed up.
Here's a thread that may help with the likely blanks on a NSW BDM marriage cert from the 1880s. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Cheers, JM
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Patrick Heffernan was my great grandfather, I am the grandaughter of Olive (Heffernan) Brennan
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I am not really sure what I am doing on this site but I Patrick Heffernan was my great grandfather, I am the grandaughter of Olive (Heffernan) Brennan
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Hi brennan1239,
Welcome to rootschat :)
dog_foster_carer will have been notified of your post and will probably be along shortly. I'm sure she will be happy to be in contact with you so that you can both share information.
Ros
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Julie, (the person who started this thread back in 2014) has not been online since mid March 2018, so perhaps she has turned off all notifications. Looking back at her posts, it could be that Ros may have contact details for her as Julie was seeking some look ups at NSW State Archives, at that time.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=229494
And of course, brennan1239 has now posted 3 times, so she can send Private Messages too.
Julie's opening post did note that she had found 'the ancestry for his wife Ada Selmes but ... complete standstill regarding Patrick Heffernan'...
I have a great deal of local history for much of NSW, particularly from the Blue Mountains to the Western Division (South Australian Border).
The NSW BDM index for Patrick's possible 1928 death includes the mention of Carlisle which I recognise as a name for a Creek in the Condobolin district of NSW. If you are still seeking information, please let me know and I will look through my offline resources to add further to this thread. (Of course, It may be a different Patrick Heffernan who died in May 1928 and death registered Condobolin)
JM
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Good to see that Julie has been back online now, so hopefully our new RChatter and Julie have exchanged PMs.
:)
JM
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Thanks JM
I have been in touch with brennan1239 and I'm sure we will be comparing notes :D
I have found all the details regarding Patrick Heffernan and have found a whole new branch of the family, from Patricks first marriage/relationship that we never knew about.
You are correct, the 1928 death record is of this Patrick, but it took seeing his probate record thanks to Ros that confirmed it.
Hopefully brennan1239 and I will exchange some Heffernan family information.
Thanks for your help
Regards
Julie
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Excellent news.
I wonder if either of you have come across any connection between your Patrick and a Norman Stanley MacLEAN (Norman McLean) in your research? Norman was station manager for the rural property known as Fairholme, on the Lachlan River, between Condo and Forbes. I can see from my family’s archived private papers that Norman engaged a P Heffernan as a rough carpenter ‘on and off’ during the 1920s.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/212702209 Lachlander & Condo 4 Feb 1931.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/218497299 Lithgow Merc 14 Nov 1910 – Capertee
PS I have quite a number of archive boxes of family history for Norman Stanley MCLEAN and his NSW ancestors, siblings etc, so I am just noting that a 'rough carpenter' named as P HEFFERNAN was recorded in the Accounting Books for the Station in the 1920s in anticipation that that info may be of help to the HEFFERNAN family historians.
JM
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If you are still on this site please contact me mde1953@yahoo.com
Maureen Brennan
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I am not really sure what I am doing on this site but I Patrick Heffernan was my great grandfather, I am the grandaughter of Olive (Heffernan) Brennan
Patrick was my grandfather as well with his first marriage to Christina Heffernan spring Hill Bathurst.
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I am too lazy to read the 15 pages of fantastic conversations about the Heffernans, but they are an interesting family from the little I did read a while ago. I read a Trove article about one of the Mr Heffernan's who was 'exiled' to Australia... his wife arrives in Australia under the name of her cousin... a Dwyer. The police worked out who she was and she confessed her name was Mrs Heffernan and I believe she was sent to the US....
If there are any Dwyer links (or Condon, Glasheen, Gleeson, Ryan)... around Tipperary then you are more than welcome to come and join us on Facebook in the Condon Dwyers of Australia Genealogical Project. We are just a bunch of Aussies with Dwyers in our ancestry and sharing info, helping each other.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/condondwyersofaustraliagenealogicalproject/
Hope to see you soon :)