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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: traynorm on Tuesday 06 May 14 01:27 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I am interested in chatting with anyone that has knowledge about Arthur Spence Cleaver who was born about 1870 and married Adelaide Pollock in 1905 in Belfast.
Thank you,
Michael.
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPBT-F7S
the marriage and re your other post - Adelaide Pollock - can`t find the marriage ?? or the birth of Adelaide Pollock
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Hello and welcome :)
There are some general references here and perhaps contacts for you http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=467656.0
Heywood
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Arthur is in London in 1911 - as you know Adelaide is in Ireland
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XW48-SMG
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Hello Heywood,
Many thanks for your interest and assistance.
That was good to find him already in London. Thank you.
I'll check out the references you suggest this evening.
Adelaide was in Bangor, Co. Down when the 1911 census was taken. By then she had given birth to 2 children, but only one was with her that night..... Cecil Alwyn Cleaver aged 4 years.
I don't know as yet if Arthur and Adelaide were separated by then or was it a case he was working in London while she stayed in Bangor to rear the children??
Many thanks again,
Michael.
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From what I find, Adelaide was born, married as Adelaide Franklin Pollock and died as Adelaide F. Cleaver 14/8/1839 in Sussex.
The other child referred to is with his father Arthur Spencer Cleaver (always Spencer, not Spence)in Stanmore, Middlesex, just 11 months.
He was Gordon Neil S. Cleaver -birth reg'd June qtr.1910 Hendon.
Gordon married 1939 Kensington, and died in Hampshire 1995 - birthdate given as 27/4/1910.
Electoral rolls from 1921 show them living in Paddington - he as Arthur Spencer Cleaver and she as Adelaide Franklin Cleaver. In 1932 it shows also Cecil Alwyn Cleaver and a Spencer Cleaver (wonder if this is the younger son, the 'S' in his name standing for Spencer).
1933 Electoral Roll shows Arthur Spencer Cleaver, Adelaide Franklin Cleaver and Gordon Neil Cleaver.
Cannot see any other references to Cecil Alwyn Cleaver in England after 1932 and can't see that Arthur and Adelaide had any more children in England either.
So, whilst we cannot know why they were apart in 1911 she clearly returned to England after.
Arthur appears in Westminster in 1939 (the year Adelaide died in Sussex) and he is alone - shown as 'Lt.-Col.'??
Annette
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I see that Cecil Alwyn died in Tanganyika, South Africa on 11/1/1935 with Probate to Sir James Frederick Cleaver, Knight and Arthur Spencer Cleaver, Lt. Col. H.M. Army.
When Arthur Spencer Cleaver himself died 4/4/1941 probate was to Barclays Bank Ltd. and Gordon Neil Spencer Cleaver, Sqd. Ldr. RAF - he left a sizeable estate!
Annette
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Hello Annette,
Many thanks for your prompt response. I much appreciate it.
That is fantastic information. I only started researching Adelaide yesterday and with help from you and a couple of others in Roots Chat I'm building a picture already. Resulting from the information you supplied could I trouble you for a bit more information based on those answers please?
Cecil Alwyn Cleaver was their 4 year old son listed on the 1911 census for Bangor, Co. Down.
1). Do you have the address in Paddington that they were living at in 1921 rolls ?
2). I might follow up Arthur's service career. Like Adelaide he may have been a pilot. Perhaps he was in the RAF?. How did you find his rank as Lt. Col. ?
3). Do you know the address Adelaide was residing at when she died in Sussex on 14 August 1939 please?
4). When you found that Gordon died in Hampshire in 1995, did your source show an address he was residing at and a date of death?
5). I saw a reference to a Mrs. Hylton Spenser Cleaver. I'm not sure at this stage where the name "Hylton" comes into the conversation ??
Thank you very much for such valuable information Annette. I'm sorry I didn't find out about RootsChat for some of my previous research.!!. It seems an excellent site for sourcing valuable information.
Best regards,
Michael
(Dublin)
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Annette,
My apologies............ our messages crossed !!
Would you be so kind as to send me a link to those sources you found the probates for Arthur and Cecil please?
I am researching Irish female pilots that earned their licences pre-WW2, of which Adelaide is one of very few. Most of them had a large degree of wealth behind them..... and it seems Adelaide had good financial support from her husband to pursue her flying career.
Its interesting her son Gordon followed the aviation trail !!. Perhaps his father Arthur was also in the RAF ??
Kindest regards and many thanks again,
Michael.
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Michael , Gordons page on Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Cleaver
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Hello Jan57,
Many thanks for sourcing the flying career of Adelaide's son Gordon. That's fabulous information to have about him.
Thank you very much,
Kindest regards,
Michael.
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In answer to your questions:
1. Lived at 2 Southwick Crescent from 1921 to 1935.
2. Arthur was in His Majesty's Army - found 2 references - WW1 Medal Roll Index Card show he was in R.G.A., 1st Res. (or 1st Reg.) Bty. - Lt. Col. and in Hart's Annual Army List 1908 it shows he was a Major in Mid-Ulster Artillery 1/7/1907.
3. No - only copy of death certificate would show you that.
4. ....... ditto ........
5. No idea where that name comes from.
All the above details (and others mentioned before) are found on ancestry.co.uk.
Annette
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Annette,
You are a mine of information !!.
Thank you very much for talking the trouble to source all that information. I do appreciate it.
I'll check through Ancestry as you suggest.
Kind regards,
Michael.
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Michael , Answer to your question 5 ( you'll need to scroll down a bit to find Adelaide, (pictures of her also)
http://mail.afleetingpeace.org/index.php/aviators/c
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Hello Jan57
I think the writer of the article in Flight may have confused the Christian names. Hylton was a UK author (1891 - 1961). I don't think at this stage there is a link between Adelaide and Hylton Cleaver ??
Regards,
Michael.
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Hello Annette7,
In your reply 6 May you said "he left a sizeable estate". Were you referring to Arthur or his son Gordon??
Do you have a link to his Probate please as this may give me additional information.
Thank you,
Michael.
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It is on Ancestry as I said before in Index of Wills and Administration 1858-1966
You did say you were going to check there but if you are not a member even if I gave a link to the index entry you have to be a subscriber to view the actual entry in the index.
The entry simply says:
CLEAVER, Arthur Spencer of 1a Queens Gate, Kensington, London died 4/4/1941 at 35 Southernhay-west, Exeter. Probate Llandudno 25th July to Barclays Bank and Gordon Neil Spencer Cleaver, Squadron-Leader, RAF.
Effects £117,692 2s 9d Resworn £110,490 8s 7d.
Other entries on the page range from just a few hundred to £4-5 thousand so you can see how the value of his estate stands out.
(Tried to find out what this would be worth today but not easy. One site came out at just under £3.1/2 million, another at £4.75 million).
You'd have to purchase a copy of the will to find out the actual content.
Annette
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Annette,
Thank you very much for that info. That explains how his wife Adelaide could afford to purchase a number of aircraft and embark on long distance flights............ it would have been no bother with all that wealth behind her !!
Thank you very much for all your co-operation. Its very much appreciated.
Best regards,
Michael.
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For information and to hopefully avoid too much further duplication of effort, some other posts connected with same (or extended) family group:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=686031.new#new
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=686033.msg5309764
Newspaper sources from the time indicate Arthur was, at time of death, formerly a director of a firm called Robinson and Cleaver Ltd, so presumably:
http://www.culturenorthernireland.org/article/770/famous-belfast-stores-robinson-and-cleaver
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As I am following the life of Arthur and Adelaide Cleaver I have posted the following threads.....
Adelaide at .... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=686031.new#new
Adelaide's father Hugh Pollock at .... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=686033.new;topicseen#new
and also the family business Robinson & Cleaver at ... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=467656.new#new
Any assistance with any of these family members would be very much appreciated.
Thank you,
Michael Traynor,
Dublin.
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Hello again Annette7,
When you kindly replied on 6 May 2014 (11.57am) you were able to say "Gordon married 1939 Kensington,". Did the record you found showing that detail give any information like a wedding date and name of spouse and possibly a location in Paddington please??. Ancestry mentions a spouse's name of 'Newporth'. Does your source give any further information please?
I'm hoping there are living relatives belonging to Gordon but to date I'm drawing a blank !!
Thanks again for all your help.
Kindest regards,
Michael.
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The Kensington marriage suggests Pauline E Hepworth as spouse.
This seems to concur:
www.downhillonly.com/download/journals/1995.pd (http://www.downhillonly.com/download/journals/1995.pd)
note, Gordon seems to have had the nickname 'Mouse'.
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New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
Gordon N S Cleaver age 36 pob Stanmore England
Pauline E Cleaver age 31 pob Bushy Heath North England
Arrival Date: 12 Dec 1946
Port of Departure: Southampton Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: Queen Elizabeth
Pauline E Cleaver Dec 1955 Pancras London Volume: 5d Page: 355
Pauline Elizabeth Cleaver of 49 Caversham St Chelsea London married woman
died 7 Oct 1955 at Fitzroy House Fitzroy Square London W1
Probate London 29 Dec 1955 to National Bank Ltd Effects £7767 2s 8d
New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
Gordon Neil Cleaver married age 37 occ manager
Arrival Date: 18 Apr 1947
Port of Departure: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Intended future permanent residence 49 Cavensham St England SW3 London
Ht 5ft 10 1/2inches complexion Fair Hair Brown eyes Grey
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Hello Scotmum,
Thank you very much for that terrific lead about Gordon's wife. It should be enough info for me to contact the Registry in Kensington for a copy of the marriage cert.
Yes, 'Mouse' was his nick name when he flew with 601 Squadron during the Battle of Britain. An eye injury he sustained when he was shot down led to a major breakthrough in medical science when his surgeon made the discovery about Intraocular Lens for eyes, having conducted 18 operations on Gordon's eyes.
As yet I am unable to locate any living relative of Gordon's..... but the hunt continues !!
My apologies to you for not linking the forum threads thus causing you to waste some of your valuable time a few days ago. Hopefully I've corrected my error and thank you for the tip in that regard.
Kindest wishes
Michael.
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Hello Ladyhawk,
Thank you very much for locating those passengers listings. Yes that also confirms his spouse's name. So that gives me a good lead.
Like Annette7 you also are a mine of terrific information.!!
My next quest is to locate a descendant and living relative of Gordon's. Any suggestions please ??
With every good wish,
Many thanks,
Michael
Dublin.
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Thank you very much for locating those passengers listings. Yes that also confirms his spouse's name. So that gives me a good lead.
For info. here's a little more on Pauline Elizabeth confirming her mn Hepworth
from London Electoral Register Kensington & Chelsea
dates 1947/51 address 49 Caversham Street
Gordon N & Pauline E CLEAVER
Paul M & Hilda HEPWORTH
P & H are living at this address in 1945. P & H are on their own from 1953 onwards
They are parents to Pauline birth entry 1915 mmn FOX
P & H married Mar 1914 Marylebone
Paul Montagu HEPWORTH age 28 occ Stock Broker, 10 Cornwall Terrace
father Montagu (dec’d) occ Architech
Hilda Mary FOX 24 17 Melrose Avenue Cricklewood
father Ernest William occ Dentist
married 7 Mar 1914 at St Marylebone Parish Church
Witnesses
Ernest W Fox, W J R Wallace, Una F Millar, Eileen M Fox, Violet C Treherne
again purely for info.
Witness Una F(lorence) is Paul's sister, her son John Humphrey Millar born 14 Mar 1903 a picture of him (1934) can be seen on Great Britain, Royal Aero Club Aviators’ Certificates, 1910-1950
British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920
Paul Montagu Hepworth rank Capt.
[see A M Hepworth]
13 Cornwall Terrace Regents Park NW1
Regiment or Corps: R West Surrey R 4th Bn
Paul Montague Hepworth of 49 Caversham Street London SW3 died 30 Aug
at 31 Queens Gate Lonond SW7
Probate London 16 Nov 1956 to H R Hobson retired insurance manager & E K Dipple stockbroker Effects £17638 9s 11d
Hilda Mary FOX born 1890 Cheltenham Glouc
1889 Cheltenham Hilda M FOX mmn NASH
1889 Cheltenham Ernest William FOX to Maud NASH
her siblings baptized at St Mary Harrow parents Ernest William FOX occ Dental Surgeon & Mary Maud
Eileen Marjorie 19 Jun 1896, Walter Basil Newsom 26 Jul 1899, Vera Maud Isabel 24 Mar 1902
You probably have these passengers lists details but thought I post just in case.....
A Franklin Cleaver 29 Ireland
Nearest relative H M Pollock College Gardens Belfast
Arthur Spencer Cleaver 44 Ireland occ Director
Nearest relative J Cleaver Dunraven Belfast
Arrival Date: 10 May 1915
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: St Louis
Port of Departure: Buenos Aires, Argentina Ship Asturias
Arrival Date: 28 Feb 1938 Southampton, England
Arthur Spencer Cleaver 67 Independent
Adelaide 52 housewife
1 Chesterfield Ct. Curzon St W1
and these details of Gordon's brother
Cecil Alwyn S Cleaver Jun 1907 Paddington Volume: 1a Page: 26
Cecil Alwyn Spencer Cleaver
Death Date: 11 Jan 1935
Death Place: Northern Ireland
Record Date: 9 Apr 1935
Record Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z91/
Re-sealed Belfast 21 October,
Annette has given details of above probate
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Hello Ladyhawk,
Again, a very big thank you for all that very helpful information. It sure seems that Adelaide and Arthur liked to travel !!. I didnt have those passenger lists, so thank you very much for that.
I am surprised to see the location of Cecil Alwyn's death place as Northern Ireland. I had read elsewhere that he died in Tanganyika on 11 January 1935.??
You seem to have access to some amazing databases for your information !!.... that's terrific.
Would any of your sources show any children to Gordon and Pauline Cleaver after their marriage in 1939 please?
Thank you again,
Michael.
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I am surprised to see the location of Cecil Alwyn's death place as Northern Ireland. I had read elsewhere that he died in Tanganyika on 11 January 1935.??
He did die in SA the details were from Northern Ireland, Will Calendar Index, 1839-1943
that gave a link to the Proni site for the full abstract, perhaps a mistake with transcripton of place of death :-\
New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
Cecil A S Cleaver single age 23 London occ Army Officer
Arrival Date: 3 Oct 1930 New York
Port of Departure: Southampton Ship Name: Berengaria
The London Gazette 3 Sept 1926 – Cecil Alwyn Spencer Cleaver
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z9b/
Re: the Proni site it's
a fully searchable index to will calendar entries three District Probate Registries of
Armagh, Belfast and Londonderry................
introduction
If you see an 'image' icon next to an entry on the will calendars application,
simply click on this to see the full content of a will as recorded by the District Registry
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/will_calendars.htm
this is Adelaide's entry
Adelaide Franklin Cleaver of 2 Southwick Crescent Hyde Park London and of The Sundial Beaulieu Road Cooden county Sussex married woman died 14 August 1939 at latter place
Probate London 23 January 1940 to Gordon Neil Spencer Cleaverflying officer in R.A.F.
Effects in Northern Ireland £185 14s.
Re-sealed Belfast 9 August.
date of grant was 23 January 1943
you have Arthur's from Annette but it also says
Arthur Spencer Cleaver Re-sealed Belfast 14 November
date of grant 25 July 1941
There's also a Sir James Frederick Cleaver probate to Arthur Spencer Cleaver Lieut. Colonel
There are others by the name of Cleaver don't know if they are related to your Cleaver family
have a look just enter surname Cleaver (11 names come up)
Would any of your sources show any children to Gordon and Pauline Cleaver after their marriage in 1939 please?
I checked FreeBMD http://www.freebmd.org.uk/ using surname Cleaver mmn Hepworth
but NO Births showing
have you seen theses
Gordon Neil Spencer Cleaver joined 601 Squadron 1937 skied for Britain in the years before the war. Mobilised on November 24th 1939 went to Merville in France May 16th 1940 with 'A' Flight of 601……..
On the 18th Cleaver and F/Lt. Hope brought down a Do17 of 2/KG76 west of Mons……..
http://www.bbm.org.uk/Cleaver.htm
THE LONDON GAZETTE, 29 NOVEMBER, 1938 – Gordon
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z9c/
THE LONDON GAZETTE, 13 SEPTEMBER, 1940 – Gordon
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z9d/
THE LONDON GAZETTE, 3 DECEMBER, 1940 – Gordon
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z9e/
THE LONDON GAZETTE, APRIL 17, 1900 – Arthur
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z9f/
THE BELFAST GAZETTE, MARCH 22, 1935 = Arthur
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z9g/
THE BELFAST GAZETTE, MAY, 1, 1936 – Arthur
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z9h/
THE LONDON GAZETTE, 8 AUGUST, 1941 – Arthur
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z9i/
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Thank you very much for all that information Ladyhawk. Brilliant !!
What does "re-sealed" mean in reference to the Wills ?. I was unaware they were available on the PRONI site. Thanks for that lead also.
It would be great to get in touch with some of Adelaide's descendants...... they may not even be aware of how adventurous an aviatrix she was back in the 1920's.!
Ive requested copy of Gordon's death cert so maybe there might be a name on that that will give me a clue to another family member that was alive in 1994.
Her other son Cecil was single in 1930 according to that passenger list. I don't know yet if he was still single when he died in 1935.
Thanks again Ladyhawk,
Regards,
Michael.