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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: littleorme on Wednesday 07 May 14 20:48 BST (UK)
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I'm looking for descendants of Clara Moore and her husband X Saunders. Clara was born in Rathfriland, Co Down ,Ireland, in 1884. Either before or after her marriage to X Saunders, she emigrated to New Zealand. Anyone any ideas? :)
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Is the X because you don't know his name? How do you know that they married?
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Hi
I don't see a death in the NZ BFM's for a Clara Saunders with the birth year 1884
These are the only ones
1981/28645 Saunders Clara born 18 April 1888
1983/37128 Saunders Clara born 22 October 1890
1994/58180 Saunders Clara Elizabeth born 27 March 1917
Cheers Janette
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Hi
I don't see a death in the NZ BFM's for a Clara Saunders with the birth year 1884
These are the only ones
1981/28645 Saunders Clara born 18 April 1888
Cheers Janette
Hi,
This person can be eliminated. This Clara Saunders was born in England,and she was a spinster. Cemetery, Te Aroha.
Cheers
KHP
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There is a travel record
SAUNDERS CLARA born 1889 travelled 1930 Passenger Lists leaving UK 1890-1960 to Auckland, New Zealand
Cheers Janette
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Hi littleorme,
Do you have any further information on the couple you are seeking, to help us with your quest?
Cheers
KHP
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There is a travel record
SAUNDERS CLARA born 1889 travelled 1930 Passenger Lists leaving UK 1890-1960 to Auckland, New Zealand
Cheers Janette
She travelled on the Corinthic from Southampton and was a waitress. She was with a Florence Saunders, 39, and their last address was 22, New Hall Street, West Bromwich. It says last permanent residence was other parts of the British Empire. Place of intended residence NZ.
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Hello,
She is at home in 1901 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Rathfriland/Downpatrick_Street/1250151/
But not in 1911 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Rathfryland/Downpatrick_Street/258398/
Maybe that is an indication. I don't see a marriage in Ireland.
Heywood
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Hi all,
Thanks for such a quick response.
I'll try to answer all the questions as best I can.
Clara was one of 15 children born to Edward & Mary Moore, in Rathfriland, Co Down, Ireland.
She was born in Aug 1884 - from parish register of the baptism in the Roman Catholic Church.
I was aware of the census info for 1901/1911. I was told by a cousin - now deceased, that Clara emigrated to New Zealand. We believe her married name was Saunders/Sanders, but we don't know where or when she married. Certainly not when she migrated.
That's all we have to go on. Not a lot, I'm afraid, but I hoped that possibly an descendant might recognise the names. :)
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Did she have a middle name?
Cheers Janette
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Hi,
As far as I'm aware, there was no middle name for Clara.
I should also have said that we don't know the first name of her husband. Hence the X.
Thanks
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Hmmmm,Mr X ;D ;D :P :P
I don't see a marriage for a Clara Moore to a Sanders/Saunders up to this date in 1934 which is the cut off for marriages
Cheers Janette
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She was with a Florence Saunders, 39
Florence Saunders first appears on the Tauranga, Bay of Plenty Electoral Roll in 1935 ... Florence and Clara were both spinsters, living at Hinemoa House, Te Aroha.
Cheers
KHP
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I am guessing that the Clara mentioned in Reply #4 is the Clara Saunders that died in 1981.
Cheers
KHP
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I am guessing that the Clara mentioned in Reply #4 is the Clara Saunders that died in 1981.
Cheers
KHP
Yes, I think we can discount that one KHP. I cant see a passenger list for a Clara Moore of the right age though.
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I know that when I did shipping transcribing, some passengers did a round trip, some stopped over until the next ship, could it be possible that Clara might have done something similar?
Cheers
KHP
EDITED: Sorry was only thinking out loud ;D
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Hello..
Can't really help (sorry) but have you thought of looking at the mother's Will. Might (or might not) throw up a clue.
I'm guessing Mary MOORE's Will is at PRONI.
Calendar of Wills and Administrations 1915-1916
Image 236 of 792
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z5u/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z5u/)
If the link doesn't work all the Index really says is...
"Probate of the Will of Mary Moore late of Downpatrick Street, Rathfriland County Down
Widow who died 23 October 1915 granted at Belfast to Edward Fegan and John Kelly. Farmers"
Hopefully the Will will mention her children.
Any idea who Edward FEGAN and John KELLY were. Sons-in-law maybe?
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Clara is at home in 1901
[...]
But not in 1911
By 1911 Clara, her sister Annie and brother Thomas had all moved to Clifton, Antrim. They were all still single.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z5s/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z5s/)
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Just for elimination purposes the two Belfast marriages for a Clara MOORE mentioned on LDS are in 1915 to a Francis Lawson BEGGS and in 1920 to an Alfred McGUIGAN. Might be part of the puzzle. Might not.
For what it's worth, there is another Rootschat thread mentioning a "Lawson BEGGS" who lived in Clifton, Antrim.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=663159.0 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=663159.0)
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Interestingly (or not) a 99 year old Clara SAUNDERS died in Napier, NZ in 1983, giving her a birth year of 1884. I think her maiden name may have been THORNBORROW/THORNBURROW but that may be from a second marriage....or not.
May just be a coincidence of name and age but I occasionally pass through Napier so I'll sort out a death notice look-up. Her probate file is available at Wellington Archives so maybe ask for a lookup if the death notice is of no help.
Saunders, Clara (R23483024) 1977 - 1983
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23483024 (http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23483024)
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Do you know if any of Clara's siblings ended up in NZ or Australia.
Regards
Beg
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Thanks for continued advice and info. Much of it confirms what I already have looked at in Belfast records.
I have a copy of the will of Mary Moore - Clara's mother. She refers to her other children, several of whom appeared to be still living in Rathfriland, but no mention of Clara.
Don't know of other family members who migrated to NZ or Australia.
I do know of a surviving Moore. He lives near Dublin, but hasn't helped - so far!
Cheers.
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She refers to her other children, several of whom appeared to be still living in Rathfriland, but no mention of Clara.
I wonder if Clara left home "under a cloud" and was disowned by the family and that is why she isn't mentioned at all in the will?
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Hi,
It's certainly possible. Four of her sisters became nuns, and she had two nephews who were priests.
Who knows what was expected of her?
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Interestingly (or not) a 99 year old Clara SAUNDERS died in Napier, NZ in 1983, giving her a birth year of 1884.
[...]
I'll sort out a death notice look-up.
Hi again...
I had a look at the 1983 death notice for the Clara SAUNDERS who died in Napier, NZ. No family mentioned except her late husband Bill. It says she was 92 years old which agrees with the following death listing on the BDM NZ website...
1983/37128 - Clara SAUNDERS d.o.b 22 October 1890
Of course the informant for the death certificate and death notice may well be wrong and the age of 99 years given for Clara on the Hastings Cemetery website is correct. Who knows :-) I tend to think the informant is more likely to be right and that the cemetery website is a typo.
If you want to take it further you can start a probate look-up thread and some kind soul will have a look at this Clara's probate file. It might mention a family member (niece/nephew) which might enable you to pinpoint who this Clara was. Just include the following info...
Wellington Archives Probate Look-Up
SAUNDERS, Clara (R23483024) 1977 - 1983
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23483024 (http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23483024)
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Have you considered doing a "Full GRONI Search" to find out the father(s) of the Clara MOORE(s) who married in 1915 and 1920. Might be helpful. Might not.
Full GRONI search results
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z6s/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z6s/)
As I read it, it only costs two quid a pop. Sounds like a bargain to me :)
GRONI search fees explained
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z6t/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z6t/)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Littleorme,
To save you the trouble of starting a lookup topic I'll have a look for this file for you.
SAUNDERS, Clara (R23483024) 1977 - 1983
http://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=23483024
Spades
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Many thanks Spades for the offer to look up the Probate.
Also many thanks Beg for the tip re GRONI. I couldn't find a marriage for Clara between 1900 and 1927, but I did find her dob 26 August 1884, which will exclude some possibilities.
The Hastings Cemetery website showed the funeral directors as Dunstalls in Napier. I've sent them an email for help.
Thanks for advice/help.
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The ability to do a search of bmd at GRONI is very recent. So when I did a search for Clara, I was pleased to find her birth: 26 August 1884! The info from Hastings cemetery might well be correct, therefore. (I also saw death certificates for her parents, and a brother)
I did not find a marriage certificate, so I assume Clara married in NZ. I looked from 1900 to 1927.
I noticed that the funeral directors were Dunstalls, so I sent them an email asking for any info they can share.
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There is this marriage
1927/9475 Clara Thornburrow to Wilbert Pullman Healy Saunders
Wilbert Pullman Healy Saunders lived in Napier according to the ER's
Wilbert Pullman Healy Saunders 1911 Napier Hawke's Bay
Wilbert Pullman Healy Saunders 1919 Napier Hawke's Bay
Wilbert Pullman Healy Saunders 1928 Napier Hawke's Bay
Wilbert Pullman Healy Saunders 1935 Napier Hawke's Bay
Wilbert Pullman Healy Saunders 1938 Napier Hawke's Bay
Wilbert Pullman Healy Saunders 1949 Napier Hawke's Bay
Wilbert Pullman Healy Saunders 1954 Napier Hawke's Bay
Wilbert Pullman Healy Saunders 1963 Napier Hawke's Bay
Wilbert Pullman Saunders 1957 Napier Hawke's Bay
Welbert Pullman Healy Saunders 1946 Napier Hawke's Bay
Cremation
Details for SAUNDERS, WILLET PULLMAN HEALY
Surname SAUNDERS
First name WILLET PULLMAN HEALY
Age at death 78
Date of death/burial 7/4/1967
Cemetery Cremation
Address 0
District NAPIER
Occupation
Block name
Plot number 0
Site D26_M
Purchaser
Funeral director
Reference C04102
Cheers Janette
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re GRONI. I couldn't find a marriage for Clara between 1900 and 1927
Hi again...
So just to clarify.... on FamilySearch the Irish Civil Registration Indexes 1845-1958 mention two likely marriages for a Clara MOORE in the Belfast district, one in 1915 and one in 1920.
You've done a "full" GRONI search and neither of the marriages list Clara's father as Edward, so both the marriages and grooms (mentioned in reply #16) can be discounted.
Is that right?
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And just for the record, if Dunstans send you a copy of the 1983 death notice for Clara SAUNDERS the lady mentioned after "All messages to..." is the following...
Hastings Cemetery
http://cemeterybase.hdc.govt.nz/Details.aspx?id=C23451 (http://cemeterybase.hdc.govt.nz/Details.aspx?id=C23451)
Hope the above link worked. As it's relatively recent I'll not give her name on the main board but you'll know it's the right record if the address is Ngarimu Street (although it should be Ngarimu Crescent, another typo). A cremation record for her husband K is also on the cemetery website.
As an aside, I'm not 100% sure to what or where the "Site: D26_M" refers. Might be a niche. Might not. Seems a bit strange for Napierites to be interred in Hastings cemetery.
"Site: D26_M" seems to be a common entry in the Hastings cemetery website cremation records so I'll send an email to the sexton asking what it means.
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Hi Spades... :) thanks again for your offer. If time allows would you be able to look up this Clara's ITM as well as her probate file. Hopefully it will indicate a previous marriage for Clara as there's very little chance that THORNBURROW is a transcription error of MOORE :-)
Wilbert Pullman Healy SAUNDERS to Clara THORNBURROW
Married 21 Dec 1927 in Napier
Personally I think she's a red herring as her "22 Oct 1890" date of birth given on BDM NZ Deaths is so specific. Not even close to the "26 Aug 1884" mentioned by Littleorme. Hopefully your efforts will clear things up.
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg,
Always in harness, aren't we? 8) Yes, I'll look up that ITM.
Spades
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Oooops....I should really have noticed earlier the FreeBMD entry for a Clara THORNBURROW born in the Oct-Dec quarter of 1890. Pound to a penny she is the Clara SAUNDERS b.22 Oct 1890 who died in 1983.
You may want to save yourself a trip Spades. Sorry about that :-)
Regards
Beg
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Ok, I'll stand down on both the probate and ITM.
Spades
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Hi,
I think Clara Thornburrow could be the one that left Southampton, on the 23 April 1927, aged 36, dob given 1891 on the Corinthic arriving Wellington, and was classed as an "Lady".
Cheers
KHP
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Hi,
Full GRONI search showed that those Clara Moore's fathers were not Edward. Different occupations too. So I can discount those two references.
Can I search for a death notice in a local newspaper?
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Hi Littleorme...
Thanks for clearing up the two Belfast marriages. A shame neither of them were for your Clara.
Not sure where that leaves you now, there being no likely looking SAUNDERS to MOORE marriages in either Ireland or NZ. My guess would be Australia or the UK, possibly the US.
I'm thinking the surviving MOORE who lives near Dublin is looking the best bet for making any progress. Any chance of writing him a letter.
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Can I search for a death notice in a local newspaper?
Not sure what you mean by that.
The BDM NZ website lists pretty much all NZ deaths of the last hundred years. I can give you a list of all the Clara's who died in NZ, since your Clara was mentioned in the 1911 census, who also have a birth year of 1884 plus or minus five years (found by "year of death" minus "age at death"). You end up with just over two hundred deaths.
The list doesn't include Clara's with a middle name.
You can then lock yourself away in the National Library in Wellington and look up all of the death notices.
Not sure if you'll have much success unless the death notice specifically says something like "Clara, born in Rathfriland, daughter of Edward and Mary MOORE."
Regards
Beg
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Good morning Beg,
Thanks for your information. Last night I decided to start looking in UK records too! Other family members "drifted" from Ireland, so it'll be worth looking for a landfall.
The cousin living near Dublin - Brendan, responded within hours of my initial post to "All the fun of the Fair" site. He promised to share information as his father and uncle were still alive then. I've written several times since with no luck - just promises. Now the uncle he said would know everything is no longer with us. How often would Family Historians hear that?
By a newspaper item I meant the "notice of death" that the family would insert. Often this referred to place of birth of the deceased, and late spouses etc.,
Thanks again.
Clive
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You can then lock yourself away in the National Library in Wellington and look up all of the death notices.
Be a bit hard to do from the UK ;D
Cheers
KHP
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I have been investigating the Wilbert Pullman Healy Saunders whose second wife was Clara, and we've always thought it was Clara Thornburrow who was born 22 October 1890 in Lancashire. In 1891 UK census she is shown as the youngest daughter of 7 aged 6/12 of William and Annie Thornburrow. Wilbert had married Adeline Mary in 1921, but she died in April 1922 having given birth to a stillborn child only weeks before.
The Clara Saunders who died in 1983 was born in 1890. Recently I sighted Wilbert's probate, and he left his estate to his wife Clara - no mention of any children. Wilbert was, my great grandfather's grandson. Unfortunately when at NZ Archives I did not have time to sight Clara's (1983) probate but intend to next time I am in Wellington.
Wilbert and Clara Thornburrow married in December 1927 (NZ BDM). Has anyone the marriage certificate of Wilbert and Clara so we can ascertain if there is any indication of her parentage or place of birth. (NZBD doesn't appear to have a marriage between a Clara Moore and a male Saunders. - nor could I find one on Ancestry UK).
So on reading these posts it seems to me that there is confusion between Clara Moore, and Clara Thornburrow. Would appreciate information to confirm which of these is correct.
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I've no idea of the name of Clara Moore's husband. Or when or where they were married. I do understand there were children, however. So perhaps that helps? All I know for certain is that she was born in Rathfriland, Co Down, Ireland on Aug 26, 1884, and emigrated at some time to NZ.
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Don't know if this of any importance, but I looked at the 1901 Census and saw that Edward and Mary had 10 children, but by following the link for the 1911 Census Mary is there (no husband) with six of the children (Clara, Annie, Patrick and Thomas are not there).
However I then did a search for Clara Moore in the 1911 Census and one showing as 24 is living at 19 Antrim Road, Clifton, Antrim; she is said to be the head of the house, and with her is sister Annie aged 22, brother Thomas (14) and a boarder.
Is it too much of a coincidence that they are missing from the family, but three of the four with ages that could relate are all in one place together?
So perhaps Clara did not come to NZ about 1900.
I am sure this Clara is not of our family (Saunders) but was just intrigued to see if I could help solve the riddle. Hope someone can find her marriage or more details of her existence.
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I don't know how the year of 1900 crept in ??? I did know about the census returns and Clara probably living in Antrim. All the information we had about Clara and NZ was "third - hand" - although reliable. The source is no longer with us, so we can't check out anything now.
Good luck with your own research.
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I'm looking for descendants of Clara Moore and her husband X Saunders. Clara was born in Rathfriland, Co Down ,Ireland, in 1884. Either before or after her marriage to X Saunders, she emigrated to New Zealand. Anyone any ideas? :)
Hi Clive
It seems possibly there was "not much joy" in finding "answers" regarding this search back in 2014 ???
[I've only skimmed over replies posted here - so if I've missed something important, then my apologies are offered in advance. ;) ]
However when I was looking for information relating to your latest query (Sylvia WILLIAMS in NZ), I happened upon this older thread .... and so extended my searching.
Edited to add - link to thread on NZ board re: Sylvia WILLIAMS
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=793172.0
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Your Clara MOORE actually emigrated to New South Wales, Australia, in 1913 (rather than coming directly to New Zealand, and that will be the reason that no listing was found for her amongst the passenger / immigration lists, pertaining to NZ. )
So here she is (and there's a "romantic touch" to follow) > >
Vessel : "ORAMA" (Orient Line) - departed London, 6 June 1913 for Australia (various ports).
# 109 : MOORE - Clara - 27 years (bc 1886) - dressmaker
Country of last permanent residence : Ireland
Contracted to land at - Sydney (NSW) : 3rd Class Passenger
continues next > >
~ Lu
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Clara MOORE -- continued
Australia - Marriage Index
# 5174
Clara J. MOORE
Charles J. SANDERS
Year : 1914
Registered at Sydney, NSW, Australia
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... a shipboard romance perhaps ? Also travelling on the "ORAMA" voyage to Australian ports in 1913, was >
# 131 (3rd Class)
SANDERS - Chas. - 24 years [bc 1889 ] - Occupation: Chemist
Country of last permanent residence : England
Contracted to land at (port of ) - Brisbane, (Queensland, Australia)
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Results from later NZ records show that Clara was more commonly known as "Clare Josephine" SANDERS and her husband was Charles James SANDERS, whose occupation for the most part, was given as "an industrial or analytical chemist".
At an unknown date they moved from Australia to Christchurch, (South Island) New Zealand, where their first son, Charles, was born in 1915.
[ Charles James SANDERS was born on 27 May 1889 at St. Helen's, Lancashire- the son of William SANDERS, a schoolmaster, and his (first wife) Martha Elizabeth (nee COOK - married 1884). Martha SANDERS died in 1889 aged 26 years (possibly in childbirth ?) and in 1890 his father William, married Janet Frances HEDLEY a schoolmistress. Charles was living in Lancs. with his father, stepmother and two older sisters in 1911.
{Info sources from - UK census / Baptism - C of E - Parish of Parr, Lancs. / Free BMD } ]
~ Lu
more to follow > >
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New Zealand Birth Index (online)
1915 - SANDERS - Charles Edward
Parents : Clare Josephine and Charles James
1916 - SANDERS - William Joseph
Parents : Clara Josephine and Charles James
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Not yet listed on the online version of NZ Birth Index, but known to have been children of Clare (or Clara) Josephine and Charles James SANDERS > >
1919 - SANDERS - Mary Sylvia
[Date of birth shown on her death registration listing = 25 June 1919 ]
c. 1925 - SANDERS - Kevin Patrick
[With other siblings, he is named in the death notices of his parents and sister, Sylvia. Also appears in the 1969 Western Hutt (Wellington) electoral roll, resident at 8 Akatea Street, Korokoro along with his sister Mary Sylvia WILLIAMS and his father, Charles James SANDERS.
Kevin Patrick SANDERS was a Medical Practitioner - a graduate of both Canterbury (NZ) and Otago (NZ) Universities -- 1950 - MSc. and 1957 - MC Ch. B ... he died at Wellington in 1970 aged 45, his death doesn't appear to have been noted in Wellington newspapers. Seems not to have married. ]
~ Lu
more to follow > >
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Clara MOORE (Clare Josephine SANDERS -- family) ... continued
It was possibly following the death of Sylvia's husband in 1962 that her parents Charles and Clare (Clara) moved from Christchurch to Wellington ?
Both Charles James SANDERS (retired) and his son (Sylvia's younger brother) Kevin Patrick SANDERS (Medical Practitioner) are shown on the 1969 Western Hutt (Wellington) electoral roll as residing at 8 Akatea Road, Korokoro. Sadly, Clare had died in 1969 (3rd January) and was buried at the Taita Lawn Cemetery, in the suburb of Lower Hutt.
Her son, Kevin Patrick SANDERS, passed away on 8 January 1970 - aged 45 years.
Charles James SANDERS - 93 Years - died on 22 March 1983.
Charles and son Kevin, are also buried at the Taita Lawn Cemetery.
http://cemeteriesonline.huttcity.govt.nz/RG1DeceasedSearch/HCCDeceasedSearch.aspx
~ Lu
more to follow > >
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SANDERS family - records for :
Archives New Zealand hold the following records relating to the SANDERS family >
https://archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24778498
This ^ file (Probate) is for Charles James SANDERS who died in 1983. I notice that the year range though is 1971 to 1983 so it may be that it's contents include some detail of the Estate of his late son, Kevin Patrick SANDERS - died 1970 ??
There didn't appear to be a Probate record for Clare Josephine SANDERS.
NZ Probate records (which include Letters of Administration files) have an index at the FamilySearch website. The process of photographing these and making them available for viewing online, is ongoing - unfortunately though it may be a while before files dated 1970's - 1980's are photographed and added. [Archives NZ charge the exorbitant fee of $NZ50 if you order a record directly from them. DON'T. ;D If a record is considered to be of importance, it's' far better to place a request on the NZ RootsChat board for a lookup at Archives. Often a kindly soul is visiting there and may offer to photograph or transcribe files for you. ]
Archives New Zealand link to access "Archway" site >
https://archway.archives.govt.nz/
There are also Inquest and Coroner's files for Kevin Patrick SANDERS - 1970 and a Probate file for Charles Edward SANDERS - 2002 (input names to Archives search box to bring up record details).
[These files of course may be of no interest to you - just adding details to let you know what's available. ]
~ Lu
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SANDERS family :
Burial at Eastern Cemetery, Invercargill - William Joseph SANDERS [and his wife Catherine Maureen (known as Maureen) ]
Headstone photo and details at following link >
https://icc.govt.nz/cemetery-result/?id=62018
~ Lu