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Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: Westy11 on Thursday 08 May 14 13:07 BST (UK)
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Hi all
This is a really long stretch and a shot in the dark.. I am looking for Ada Thornhill who married William Dillwyn Janson in about 1850 - 1855 [early]. The only reason I am posting is that I have searched in English records for Ada and did find that she was born on 20 Oct 1831 at sea. Her father was Robert Thornhill.
Through another post a family was discovered that is potentially related to Ada and in this instance the father Robert's occupation was given as gentleman and Ada's mother as Charlotte Eliza. When Ada was 9 she was at school in England boarding.
This family also had a daughter baptised in England in 1844 to the same couple named Emily Amber Frances. The fact that Ada was born at sea and her father was a gentleman made me wonder if perhaps they lived in Jamaica? Tenuous at best isn't it...
As you can see this is the sum total of what I have which is hardly enough even to post BUT I have had some spectacular successes through Rootschat Forum on which I had thought was useless.
So i am posting and have my fingers crossed. ;D
Westy11
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I don't know anything about Jamaican records but I see that William Dillwyn Janson b 1828 Hornsey is enumerated as unmarried in both 1851 and 1871. Why is it thought there was a marriage to Ada c1850-1855?
1851: HO107/1769/327/49
1871: RG10/2414/33/15
Added -I see that in fact an 1853 marriage in Switzerland was found on a parallel thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=686041.msg5302502#msg5302502
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Yes I assume William and Ada married and I assumed they married after the 1851 census. They had one child who was born in 1855 at Upton Cum Chalvey, Buckingham and died at Devon when she was 2. This is my reason for selecting the date range I did.
I did see the 1871 census record you mentioned where William was listed as unmarried and I wondered if perhaps Ada had died although I could not locate a death record for her on FreeBDM. I could not locatre the 1861 census record for the couple.
I do know that many people did not marry or married after the birth of the child however William Dillwyn Janson came from a long line of Quakers and with that came strong principles: but this is just an assumption and i certainly know of one other instance where a Quakeress had a child outside of marriage [but I don't know if she was excommunicated as a result or if the birth was kept hidden].
Westy11
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The other thread also gives an 1844 London address for Robert & Charlotte Eliza Thornhill - to be honest if it were me I would be following that up first. Is there any particular reason to think they were connected with Jamaica (other than having been on a ship in 1831)?
I see that the death of a British national named Charlotte Eliza Thornhill was registered with the consulate at Leghorn (Livorno), Italy, 1866-1870.
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I did try to follow the 1844 London address for Robert & Charlotte Eliza Thornhill but I couldn't get any traction. I did find that the other daughter Emily married Eustace Neville Rolfe but it occurred to me to also try for Jamaica. No - no other reason other than a gut feeling.
As to William he died aged 48 of rapid consumption on 13 Jun 1876 living at Garsdon Rectory Wiltshire. I couldn't locate any probate records for him nor have I been able to determine why he was at the Rectory. As you will have seen in the 1851 Census he was working with his father Alfred Janson - Alfred was an underwriter for Lloyds Bank so this doesn't indicate he took hold orders.
Its a bit of a mystery ???
Westy11
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For what it is worth my feeling is that there may be a significant link to Italy for this family.
We have:
1866-1870: Death of a Charlotte Eliza Thornhill at Leghorn, as already posted
1892: Death in Naples of Ivy Rolfe, 22, second daughter of Eustace Neville Rolfe of Heacham Hall Norfolk
1908: Death of Eustace Neville Rolfe aged 63, Naples
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Actually it seems Eustace Neville-Rolfe was the Consul-General at Naples when he died, having entered the consular service at Naples in 1895.
His Times obituary (16 Dec 1908) says that in 1867 he married Emily Auber Frances, daughter of the late Mr Robert Thornhill. Emily died in 1900, leaving issue.
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I don't know anything about Jamaican records but I see that William Dillwyn Janson b 1828 Hornsey is enumerated as unmarried in both 1851 and 1871. Why is it thought there was a marriage to Ada c1850-1855?
1851: HO107/1769/327/49
1871: RG10/2414/33/15
Added -I see that in fact an 1853 marriage in Switzerland was found on a parallel thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=686041.msg5302502#msg5302502
AVM228
I have to admit I totally missed those posts....... :-\
What a doofus. [me]
Westy11
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The Norfolk Chronicle of 5 Oct 1867 announced the marriage of Eustace Neville-Rolfe to Emily Auber Frances, daughter of "the late Robert Thornhill, Esq", so he was already deceased.
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avm228
Where did you locate the records for the deaths mentioned re Rolfe and Thornhill please???
Westy11
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I suggest you try the GRO Overseas Records (available on FindMyPast) and if you can the Times Digital Archive (may be available via a library subscription).
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thank you so much avm228. Your assistance has been invaluable.
Westy11
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You are welcome.
A descendant of Emily Auber Frances Thornhill has her parents as Robert Thornhill and Jane Charlotte Eliza nee Adams, with a Barbados connection:
http://family.minney.org/source.php?sid=S20566&ged=palmer.ged
So perhaps your Jamaica hunch was not all that far off after all :)
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More from that tree - Robert's marriage in India & death "near Mauritius":
http://family.minney.org/individual.php?pid=I1851&ged=palmer.ged
Death of (Jane) Charlotte Eliza confirmed as Leghorn, 1866:
http://family.minney.org/individual.php?pid=I1850&ged=palmer.ged
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Extracted details of the India marriage:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGNW-N4M
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avm228
Superb.... Once again Rootschat expertise has been invaluable.. I cannot thank you and everyone who has contributed to this post enough.. Now if we could just work out where Ada, William's wife died & why he was at the Rectory I too will be more than a happy camper...
Westy11
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I believe I have something for your Robert and Charlotte Thornhill. Get in touch at:
giunti.matteo (at) gmail
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As a descendant of Robert Thornhill, I might be able to help if you are still interested. Robert and Charlotte Eliza had four children, a son and three daughters. Robert was a ship's captain and peripatetic, dying at sea off Mauritius of dysentery in Jan 1858. Charlotte brought up her daughters mostly on the continent, so doesn't feature in English censuses. Ada married William Jansen, had a child who died at two, and was herself probably dead by 1866, because Charlotte was the only relation at Emily's wedding to E N-Rolfe in October 1867. Charlotte married Fredk. Wetherall in 1854 when she was 19.
Robert was the son of Dowding Thornhill, whose family owned sugar plantations in Barbados, and his wife Charlotte Eliza was the daughter of an indigo manufacturer in Calcutta.
Happy to help with more if you want.
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Hello chikombingo,
I will send you a PM shortly.
regards,
Westy
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Chikombingo and Westy,
we have Robert and Charlotte's graves in Livorno. I have created an association several years ago to take care of the TWO English cemeteries we have here and in the "newest" cemetery I have surveyed their graves.
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I didn't make it clear in my last post that it was the mother, Charlotte Eliza married to Robert Thornhill, who died in Livorno (Leghorn) in 1866, whereas it was her daughter, Charlotte Jane Eliza Thornhill married to Frederick Wetherall in 1854, who was with her younger sister Emily Frances Auber Thornhill when Emily (age 23) married Eustace Neville-Rolfe in October 1867. Emily died at the Palazzo Caprioli, Naples, on 14 December 1900.
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chikombingo,
Thanks so much. My specific interest is in Ada THORNHILL and William Dillwyn JANSON and any issue they may have had other than their daughter who died aged 2.
In my research I like to be able to have a synopsis of the family into which my ancestors married and this is why I was looking for Robert THORNHILL as father to Ada. ;D
i am still looking for Ada's death/burial and the reason why William may have died at the rectory at Wiltshire, England.
Additionally I am hoping to find them in the 1861 census as this will help to narrow the timeline for Ada's death. ???
I was unable to locate a Will/Probate for William which also may have contributed some information.
Notwithstanding that the information that has surfaced in the last day or so is valuable information and many thanks.
Westy
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Chikombingo and Westy,
we have Robert and Charlotte's graves in Livorno. I have created an association several years ago to take care of the TWO English cemeteries we have here and in the "newest" cemetery I have surveyed their graves.
Thanks so much.
I think we may have been in contact previously around the burial of Peregrine BOWEN who died in 1845 and is buried at The Protestant Cemetery of Florence.
Is this correct???
Westy
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Hi Westy and Madmats
First - Livorno
I have it recorded that Charlotte Eliza Thornhill was buried in the Campo Santo Inglese, Leghorn in either Jan 1866 (my record) or Jun 1866 (her grand-daughter's record) Which? Her husband Robert had died at sea of dysentery off Mauritius on 10 Jan 1858, having left Calcutta as Master of the SS Clarendon, 802 tons, on 15 Sep 1857. I think he would have been buried at sea. Unfortunately his effects were put on a transport which foundered, all his papers and belongings being lost. I imagine that it can only be a memorial to him in the cemetery in Livorno, rather than an actual burial.
Second - Ada (Thornhill) Janson. She was born at sea on 20 Oct 1831. She was privately baptised 12 Nov 1831 in Hounslow and then baptised again in Southwark 6 Aug 1834! She and her sisters would have seen little of her father as he was often away for a year at a time on voyages to East Indies and Australia. She married William Dillwyn Janson in December 1853, when she was just twenty, and initially they lived in Paris. Their only child, daughter Ada Charlotte Mary Dillwyn Jansen, was born in Eton (probably Upton-cum-Chalvey) in October 1855, baptised in Upton-cum-Chalvey 19 Dec 1855 and died in the district of Dover Apr 1858, being buried on 12 April. Was the family going to or returning from France?
Why, in the 1871 census did William describe himself as unmarried? He was buried in Garsdon, Wilts on 13 Jun 1876. My aunt's book mentions that the marriage was unhappy and that it ended in separation, and my great-aunt's book says that in 1900 Ada was living in Paris. I have no record of her death.
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Thanks so much for that 'insider' information.
It makes sense to me. It must have been so very tragic for William and Ada to lose their only child and I can imagine their loss may well have added to an already strained relationship.
I will draw a line under this aspect of my research.
Thanks so much.
Westy