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Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: Karytay on Thursday 08 May 14 18:32 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find more info on the Transvaal Scottish Regiment during WWII. My Uncle was a member and he fought in Egypt. I have found out that the regiment had three battalions. I have no idea how it works? My Uncle spoke about staying in Cairo and men from there sent out into the desert to fight. What battalion went where? how does Sollum fit in and Tobruk? And how do I go about finding out where my Uncle fought? and what battalion he was in?
I have attached some of his photos of soldiers, maybe someone will recognize a relative.
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Here is some more photo's
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If you google Transvaal Scottish Regimental Association there is a tab of the left which says history. Clicking on this will give you quite a bit of the history of what they did in the Second World War.
I am sure you could also contact the secretary mentioned on the site for more information.
Hope this helps.
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Yes Thanks I saw that site, I will contact them and see if they can help.
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Been a while since you posted this - did you come right with your uncle?
I'm working on my grandfather's war diary, and have done a bit of research. I gather you aren't sure whether he was in 1st, 2nd or 3rd Battalion of the Transvaal Scottish? I think all three ended up in Egypt at some point of another, but I suspect he may have been 1st TS... I may be wrong, though.
If you can let me know his name I will be happy to see what I can find. You didn't mention whether he survived the war - so I am guessing he did?
N
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Hi neillsun
Found out that my Uncle was in the 2 Transvaal Scottish they were responsible for attacking Sollum on the Libyan border. After that they moved towards Tobruk were they were captured by the Germans on the 20 Jun 1942.
My uncle ended up in Italy as a prisoner and then later in Germany. He was in Stalag 4B Muhlberg with ranking officers. He was among the men that were rescued, flown to England and then onto South Africa.
He's name Pte.Frank Allan Dally, Army number 32325
If you have anything more about the fight in Sollum and the prison camp Stalag 4B will be most grateful. Thanks
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http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol145ds.html
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_IV-B the external links at the bottom are worth looking at.
maxD
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Thanks pampoen and max D for the links. Will look at them, for I want to add a bit about the prison camp in my book. I have completed the section on the battle of Sollum.
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This translated Polish blog has snippets not on the other sites as seen from a prisoner perspective.
http://szczepon.blox.pl/2009/08/Mhlberg-Zeithein.html
maxD
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Thanks maxD interesting and sad. My uncle just stayed there till he and the others were rescued. Not like some who tried to escape.
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@katytay one of the gentlemen in one of the photos looks exaclty like my grandfather. I know he was injured at el alemain do you know if there is somewhere i could get more infomation
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Hello and welcome to Rootschat.
This site http://www.national.archives.gov.za/index.htm has been cited a number of times on here. Once you find (hopefully) his service record that will tell you what battalion he was in and you could proceed from there.
Roots member 3sillydogs in Durban has been helpful to others and may see this. I'll send a message to her.
MaxD
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Hello cands, I got my Uncles service records from the South Africa Defense force Archives. So if your grandfather was South African that is the place to try. But if he is British then you will have to try Kew Archives in England. Give as much info as you can about what you know of his service and give his full name and birth date. If you know his Identity number give that as well.
This is the email address of the South Africa Defense force Archives, documentation centre - sandfdoc@mweb.co.za
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Hi neillsun
Found out that my Uncle was in the 2 Transvaal Scottish they were responsible for attacking Sollum on the Libyan border. After that they moved towards Tobruk were they were captured by the Germans on the 20 Jun 1942.
My uncle ended up in Italy as a prisoner and then later in Germany. He was in Stalag 4B Muhlberg with ranking officers. He was among the men that were rescued, flown to England and then onto South Africa.
He's name Pte.Frank Allan Dally, Army number 32325
If you have anything more about the fight in Sollum and the prison camp Stalag 4B will be most grateful. Thanks
Kartay,
Really, sorry, looks like I never got back to you!! I see you have managed to get your uncle's record from the SANDF. I found them quite helpful.
So I have Dally, Pte. F.A.* listed under 2 Transvaal Scottish. The asterisk denotes, as you mentioned, a P.O.W. Unfortunately that is all I have here.
Neill
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Thanks Neil
I have already written up the short booklet for my cousin, including photos and documents. I looked up what others said about their experiences as a POW and also found info on the German camps. I added a general description to the booklet. My cousin now has it, all I have to do now is finish his family tree.
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Dear Karytay. That´s my Dad!!!!
In the first photo 2nd from right. I have shown it to my family and they are all quite sure it is too. Lieutenant Hugh Hamilton known as Ginger. 3rd Transvaal Scottish Regiment. South African.
I am guessing the photo was taken in Mersa Egypt after they had came from the East Africa Campaign against the Italians in June 1941. The Regiment was destroyed by Axis forces at Sidi Rezegh in Operation Crusade in November 1941. He was captured and spent the remainder of the war in Italian and German prison camps. He never mentioned any battles only amusing training excersies and escape attempts and being on the run in occupied Europe. I have learnt most thing through the internet while locked down piecing together fragments of information remembered as a boy. I would love to learn more from any one especially if the name ring any bells. My Dad would be 100 this May 25th, he died in 1993.
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Hi Robert
Nice to hear from you. Glad you recognize your dad. Unfortunately my uncle pass on long time ago so I cannot ask him anything about the men he was with in the photo's.
Hope you get more answers.
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Hi, Wondering if anyone could help please. My grandfather fought with the 3rd Transvaal Scottish. His full names are Thomas Martin Baptist Warren. If anyone has any info regarding his battalion. i would greatly appreciate it. Also I know that he was on the SS Nova Scotia when it was torpedoed. Thank you.
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Hi Karytay
I am convinced that the man second from the left is my maternal grandfather, William Custance. He was captured at Sidi Rezegh in 1941. Would you be able to send a higher resolution photo to me, please? I'd love to increase the zoom on the photo to ascertain whether it is my grandfather or not. My mother agrees with me that this looks like her father but the photo is quite small and she is also struggling to make out the details.
I'm also trying to find further information on his service record. Any ideas of where I could find further information in this regard?
Many thanks!
Arthur
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Hi Arthur
Which photo are you wanting? I posted 6 and the originals are also small. But will gladly sent you a high resolution if I can.
You can try the South African defense force web site - https://www.defenceweb.co.za/contact/
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https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16741796
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Thanks so much, Karytay.
The photo I'm referring to is https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=686313.0;attach=396086
I appreciate your help with this.
Kind regards
Arthur
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Dear Dathai
Thanks so much - I really appreciate you taking the time to find this record - much appreciated!
Kind regards
Arthur
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Hi Karytay
I am convinced that the man second from the left is my maternal grandfather, William Custance. He was captured at Sidi Rezegh in 1941. Would you be able to send a higher resolution photo to me, please? I'd love to increase the zoom on the photo to ascertain whether it is my grandfather or not. My mother agrees with me that this looks like her father but the photo is quite small and she is also struggling to make out the details.
I'm also trying to find further information on his service record. Any ideas of where I could find further information in this regard?
Many thanks!
Arthur
Dear Arthur
In the photo your referring to, I honestly believe that is my father to the right of your grand father leaning on him. I see from your grand fathers records he was a private and my father was a lieutenant. Would this joviality take place between the ranks, no idea?
My father was also captured at Sidi Rezegh in November 1941 where the 3rd Transvaal Scottish were effectively wiped out and possibly South Africa's biggest military loss, when a German panzer unit attacked there rear flank during Operation Crusade, You can find this action well documented on Youtube. He spent the rest of the war in Italian and German prisoner of war camps.
If anyone reading this has access to army records and wishes to look up my father, I would be very grateful.
Hugh Hamilton,
Date of birth 25th May 1920,
Place of Birth, Witbank South Africa
Sorry no idea of service number but I would be intrigued to know if the service records throw up any more information.
Best regards
Robert H.
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Can I suggest you join the group South Africans in world war 1 and 2 and Korean War on FB. There are a vast number of members and photos on the group. One of the members is Dewald Nel. For a small fee he goes to archives in Pretoria and makes copies of the military records. This should help a lot of you get some closure.
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Hi All,
For those who had family members who were POW's, I’m wondering whether- if they spent time in Italy- they were in Campo 57 at Grupignano or the attached work camps before capitulation?
I’m compiling a comprehensive list of men who passed through 57. There were over 5000 and to date I have about 4,100-4,200.
Cheers and Thank You
Chris
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Here is a synopsis of a book written by John Bosman about his time when he was captured at Tobruk. I first met John in 1998 at my mom’s funeral. John was with my dad's brother Claude Austin in one of the POW camps in Italy. John wrote a book called Providence was my guide. Here is some information extracted from the book which may help others with their research.
On the 9/6/1941 General Smuts announced they would be sailing to Egypt. The next day the division travelled to Durban and embarked on The Mauritania, The Ile De France and The New Amsterdam. John was on the first ship and at 4 PM the convoy left Durban. Ten days later (20/6/1941) the ships entered the Suez Canal and docked at Port Tewfik. From here they disembarked and travelled by train to Amaryia arriving there on the 22/6/1941. From there they later travelled to Mariopolis. While there John found out his brother William who had joined sixths months before him was at Amaryia, so he went to visit him. William was attached to the 4th Armoured Cars who then went to Mersa Matruh.
On the 18/11/1941 the Division left headed for the Front. Along the way John saw a vast array of burn out Lorries, Tanks and Jeeps. This was after the battle of Sidi Resegh which lasted from the 22-25/11/1941. John was based at a spot called Point 207 where he spent Christmas and New Year there. On the 1/1/1942 the Germans surrendered at Bardia and on the 4th Sollum surrendered. On the 18/1/1942 Halfaya pass was captured without a battle. A, C and D companies remained with 4 and 6 Brigade at Sollum to fortify the area. While at Tobruk 3 German 88mm guns were captured. John was allocated with some others to man the gun on which they had had no training. However, they were later given training by the Transvaal Heavy Artillery.
By the 17/6/1942 General Ritchie withdrew his troops to Egypt, his allowed to Germans to capture El Adem airfield along the Stuka bombers to attack Tobruk where John was. On the 20/6/1942 the main onslaught on Tobruk began with bombing raids, this allowed Rommels tanks to break through the defences. At 8 AM on the 21/6/1942 General Klopper surrendered.
John decided he would make a run for it. Packing some stuff into a small patrol bag and with some meagre rations and water he set off in a Southerly direction. After covering about 10 miles, he stopped to have a rest. In the morning he proceeded in a Easterly direction but as the day got hotter his pace slowed down. Just then he saw British vehicles approaching but when they got close, he saw it was Italians in the captured vehicles and he had to surrender. The Italians proceeded to take his valuables and then prepare lunch. A short time later a English speaking German officer pulled to talk to John. When John told him the Italians had robbed them, he pulled out his Luger ordering them to return the goods. An Italian officer kept John`s ring so when John told the German he fired 2 shots into the ground in front of the Italian officer who then returned the ring. The German officer told the Italians to leave, and he took John`s pistol and compass and took John prisoner. John was taken back to Tobruk and put in a POW camp where he met up with George Hurford, Jan Pucjlowski, Phillip Cohen, Freddy Silberstein. The 5 of them made a pact to stay together. About a week later the Italians put them on a truck and drove them to Derna for the night. The following morning at 6 AM they got onto another truck which drove them to Benghazi where they were to remain for several weeks. On the 11/7/1942 John and his friend’s part of 3000 troops boarded the Monviso. The other 3000 troops sailed on the Nino Biscio. At 3 PM on the 13/7/1942 the ships docked at Brindisi and from there they marched to Camp 85 POW Tuturama arriving on the 14/7/1942. Three days later Red Cross food Parcels arrived but there was only enough for 1 tin between 6 men. This was where John met my uncle Claude Austin who had been in the RDLI. Being a sergeant Claude had to take some soldiers to collect several Red Cross food Parcels and then distribute them. Amazing that 46 years later John still remembered Claudes name. From Tuturama they were sent to Camp 60 POW Lucca. The British troops were put in Settore 1 and the SA troops were put in Settore 2. From Camp 60 POW Lucca they left on the 16/11/1942 bound for Camp 65 POW Gravina. Here they were placed in Settore 3&4. Settore 2 was a mixed bunch of soldiers from various countries who were not English. At Christmas time a play was organised by Dan Bosman (no relation to John) Ted Pearson and Don Proctor.
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Part 2 of the story. At one stage Jon and some other prisoners worked at Mottola Farm between 26/5/1943 until the 19/7/1943 when they were again moved to Foggia and then on the 22/8/1943 they left for POW Camp 82 in Florence arriving on the 24/8/1943. Here they were placed in Settore 2. The camp had several French Foreign Legion prisoners of war who were not afraid to murder someone who stole from them. At this camp about 20 prisoners tunnelled out of the prison and escaped. A rumour went round the Italian guards were going to be replaced by Germans which aggravated the French. On a Sunday the 12/9/1943 the French stormed a wire fence attempting to escape on the Easterly side. While this was going on John decided to make a break for it by scaling the fence on the Southerly side. John then ran about 3Km where he reached the Arno river. This is where he met Antoine a Frenchman and Fernando a Spaniard who had also just escaped. These 3 eventually reached the Americans later after the Americans landed in Sicily and were freed.