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Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: iwccc on Friday 16 May 14 02:54 BST (UK)
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Does anyone have contact with South Africa or know how I can find the father of James McKay Bishop born Cape of Good Hope 1837. Died 1887 O. Free State. Married Mary Elizabeth Venables in 1867.
I know there are sites but my problem is I don't know which town is in which site etc. I am trying to find when this family first came to South Africa. Was it James' parents - if so where did they come from?
I would appreciate any help.
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Does anyone have contact with South Africa or know how I can find the father of James McKay Bishop born Cape of Good Hope 1837.
Died 1887 O. Free State.
Married Mary Elizabeth Venables in 1867.
I know there are sites but my problem is I don't know which town is in which site etc. I am trying to find when this family first came to South Africa. Was it James' parents - if so where did they come from?
I would appreciate any help.
Sorry don't have any contact with SA, if you haven't already used it perhaps the link below might be useful
A guide to researching in SA from an amateur genealogist who found it difficult to know how to research in SA has complied info. and has had enormous success in finding family
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0z8w/
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Hi I found a link with some records for J Bishop http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm300ds?20140516092106B13F1B63
DEPOT McGregor Museum, Kimberley
TYPE Manuscript
REFERENCE MMK7590/1-989
DESCRIPTION Griqualand West Board of Executors.
STARTING 1900
ENDING 1960
REMARKS Donor: Griqualand West Board of Executors, Kimberley. Book
catalogue and card catalogue available. 22,40 lin. m.
SUMMARY + Solvent and insolvent estates done by the Griqualand West
Board of Executors.
Not sure how to search these records perhaps someone with more experience can tell us.
Regards Derek
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Thanks pampoen, I have tried this link but can't seem to get through as yet. I will have to put aside some extra time and try it again. Thanks for your answer.
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Thanks Ladyhawk, Your suggested website is very interesting. Such a lot of information that I am sure will take weeks to sort through. Much appreciated.
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My Introduction Letter to RootsChat, Hi Everyone :). My name is Edward Rodney Bishop van Gass. I was raised in South Africa, where I lived 35 years of my 70 years. The second 35 years have been spent in the United States, where we live in the little town of Grace, Idaho.
My Adoptive Mother was Sarah Louisa Bishop (S. L. Bishop), Daughter of George Bishop and (Wiessie) Marg. van Soelen. Her mother was a daughter of Provincial President Boshoff. S. L. Bishop. She is the only daughter and had five brothers. All six have since passed away. She was the second child, yet outlived all her brothers, when she died at almost 89 years old. She was never married. She raised her nephew Kevin Bishop, because his mother died when he was very young. His father married later again. This lady (Joyce?) had a son by her previous husband. Together Joyce and (AB) Arendt Boshoff had a daughter names Patricia.
I was adopted at the age of 7, some 63 years ago by S. L. Bishop, who was never married. She was a schoolteacher. My name was not changed until I emigrated to the U.S.A. and added the Bishop as my third given name.
As far as I can remember, George James Bishop was the grandson of James McKay Bishop.
I understand that we have the birth and death dates of James McKay Bishop. Has anyone ever seen the Birth certificate or Birth Record? I would think that his parents’ name should be on that record. Since I live in the United States, I do not have the constant availability for receiving South African Civil records.
The last time I tried to search family history on both the van Gass and Bishop lines, the receptionists were not very friendly and not quite willing to help. However, they wanted rather large amounts of money for the records, which they would “Forward) to me in the States. I was informed by other researchers that the records would never arrive, since the receptionist would only pocket the money, once we leave the Civitas Building in Pretoria. I supposed that it would not be easy to just hop over to South Africa, in order to find out why the records were not sent in the first place.
That is why I wondered if someone possibly had seen the Birth Certificate or other actual records that would indicate the information as to the parents of James McKay Bishop.
I would love to continue chatting with anyone regarding the bishop family. I have a few pictures of some of the Bishop and van Soelen families.
Take care and thank you,
Ed van Gass.
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Hello, welcome to Roots Chat. I have over the years been researching the Bishop Family. (My daughter has married a South African Bishop 5 years ago). I was stumped for years about how the Bishops came to South Africa - always thought it may be from Scotland. I found this site very helpful and if you look at all the entries under "Bishop family from South Africa) you will find the journey we took some years ago about James McKay Bishop. This may give you some leads. My son in laws family is still in South Africa. We would be happy to share any information or photos with you. Our line is through John Bishop. I haven't seen the birth certificate. I am led to believe that James McKay was in the 91st Reg.and came from Scotland with that group to St. Helena (where I believe he would have been guarding and later at the exhumation of Napoleon Bonaparte- exciting info.?)
He then went with the 91st to Cape of Good Hope where he served 9 years 3 months (was part of the Kaffir Wars of 1846 and 1850,51,52). He then left the army and decided to stay in South Africa.
Happy to help any way I can. Regards
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I presume you found his death notice
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939J-67W6-Z?i=173&cc=3040532
and Mary's DN
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939J-674Z-F?i=174&cc=3040532
They appear to have died a month apart both aged under 50 so it would appear that he was born c 1840. There would be no official birth record in SA ,if indeed was born in SA, that would mean you would need to find a baptism. Do you know where the children were born and also what religion they were - perhaps we can find a marriage which may give some clues through the witnesses to the marriage. Most SA records available on-line are on familysearch.org - there are masses of un-indexed records so it may be possible to find some details with oodles of patience.
Just found someone has started a tree on familysearch https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/MR4Y-T57
gives Mary's parentage and has the children's baptisms in the Methodist church attached. Unfortunately only a small number of the Methodist church records are on-line - you may need to contact them directly
Here is a link to their marriage record
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSK8-G967-W?i=382&cat=257099 wich discloses that Mary was a widower ! No other Bisphop's mentioned sadly
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Do you know where the children were born and also what religion they were - perhaps we can find a marriage which may give some clues through the witnesses to the marriage.
You have just added extra info. to your post - as I was adding this
James Mac Kay Bishop Age: 26
Place of Origin: Bloemfontein
Marriage Date: 25 Dec 1867
Marriage Place: Free State, South Africa
Church: Bloemfontein
Spouse: Mary Elizabeth Clarke age 28
Occupation: Skrynwerker
Religion: Methodist
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Alfred John Bishop
Baptism 03 Oct 1869 Vredefort, Orange Free State, South Africa
James Mckay,
Mary Elizabeth born VENABLES
Mary Agnes Bishop
Baptism 06 Jul 1868 Vredefort, Orange Free State, South Africa
James Mckay,
Mary Elizabeth
George James Bishop
Baptism 11 Jun 1872 Vredefort, Orange Free State, South Africa
James Mckay,
Mary Elizabeth
Gertrude Bishop
Baptism 31 Mar 1878 Vredefort, Orange Free State, South Africa
James Mc Kay,
Mary Elizabeth
Edgar Arthur Bishop
Baptism 03 Aug 1873 Vredefort, Orange Free State, South Africa
James Mc Kay,
Mary Elizabeth
Ethel Emma Bishop
Baptism 16 Mar 1876 Vredefort, Orange Free State, South Africa
James Mckay,
Mary Elizabeth
Agnes Hannah Bishop
Baptism 11 May 1875 Vredefort, Orange Free State, South Africa
James Mckay,
Mary Elizabeth
Grace Mary Bishop
Baptism 16 Mar 1876 Vredefort, Orange Free State, South Africa
James Mckay,
Mary Elizabeth
South Africa, Methodist Parish Registers, 1822-1996
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Thank you all for the Bishop information. I feel inclined to believe that the St Helena stint for John (Sgt. Major) is correct. Now, just to actually have a copy of James McKay's birth record (certificate), which should determine if he was born in the Cape Colony (which at tat time was part of the British rule), or on the island of St. Helena, where his father Sgt. Major John Bishop was stationed for several years.
I am not sure if the St. Helena civil records (or for the ecclesiastical records) were held in the UK or in the Cape Colony, South Africa. Does anyone have a clue how to find the civil and/or ecclesiastical (church) record are currently held? I will look on FamilySearch to try to find something there. Anyone else, who has more suggestions, please share with us. Thank you much, Ed v.
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If you look in the catlog on FS there are some films for St Helena
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/156110?availability=Family%20History%20Library
I searched the indexed one for Bishop - no records found.
You may need to look for regimental records at Kew Gardens for a Bishop serving in St Helena. Again there would be no birth certificate you need to find a parish record. His DN says he was born in the Cape - there are no on-line Bishop baptisms in the Methodist church for the time of his birth so you may need to approach a researcher to go the Cory Library in Grahamstown to look for one (thats where the bulk of Methodist records are stored).
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You're lucky that I'm a hoarder of links ... had saved one for St Helena years ago
It’s hard to read but James’ baptism is on page 21 in document http://www.historicalpapers.wits.ac.za/inventories/inv_pdfo/AB2073/AB2073-1-1-5-03-jpeg.pdf
(Diocese of St. Helena, 1680-1986 - ST JAMES Baptisms)
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Well done Tree Spirit - I had looked at the Cape Town baptisms but forgot that Wits had the St Helena baptisms - the register page number as opposed to the PDF page no is 135
He appears to have a brother William in this register
http://www.historicalpapers.wits.ac.za/inventories/inv_pdfo/AB2073/AB2073-1-1-5-02-jpeg.pdf
Pdf pg 42 register page 108
Cant see any records in SA for John and Catherine Bishop
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Well done Tree Spirit
Yes I felt good about it too until I realised that "iwccc" would have known about it already:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=698172.0
::) ::) ::)
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8 June 2021 – Hi Everyone at RootsChat interested in the Bishop line. Now this is a good day for the Bishop Family from Scotland. I spent this morning and found the following information. Finally, we have more information about John Bishop and his parents’ names and their place in Scotland. There seems to be confusion about birth date and place names. At least, I am grateful for the kind available resources. Now to find William's and Janet's parentage. Please feel free to join in the fun.
John Bishop Male Birth 11 June 1870 ? Lasswade,Midlothian,Scotland Parents: William Bishop Male Janet Douglas Female Child: John Bishop Male Birth 13 March 1879 ? Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland, United Kingdom Death 9 March 1902 South Africa.
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So sorry, I am not sure why the information is transformed into a step-like fashion.
John Bishop Birth: 11 June 1870 Lasswade, Edinburghshire, Scotland, United Kingdom Principal - Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950 Father: William Bishop Mother: Janet Douglas
Son: John Bishop
take care, Ed - vangasser
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Hello Vangasser. Excitimg news - so good to have a document showing baptism etc. Where exactly were you researching? Are you also related to the Bishop family. For your information currently two Bishop sons from South Africa are now permanently living in Australia and married to Australian girls. So some of the Bishops are moved again.
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Vangassers connection is in reply 5
In case you don't know about scottish namimg systems ;
James may have had the middle name McKay after one of his grandparents .
There was a mention of a brother William .was he younger or older ?
Second son usually named after mothers father
Third son named after father so william .
unless fathers father was also william in which case first son would be william .
Middle names are great clues.
MCKAY.s seem to be everywhere .
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Hello, Thanks for asking. I found most of this information in:
William Bishop in entry for John Bishop, “Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950”
I still want to figure out about the dates and places I found.
About the two Bishops in Australia. I might have communicated with them.
My mother was - Sarah Louisa Bishop. She is the daughter of George James Bishop, who is the son of James McKay Bishop, who is the son of John Bishop (St Helena Scottish Soldier). John Bishop is the son of William Bishop.
I hope this helps. vangasser
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Some confusion regarding the Bishops in South Africa - possibly resolved.
Dear Family & Friends, Every now and then we find that the two main Bishop Families in South Africa are/is seen as the "Same one." There are few suggestions to consider, which might just help.
John Karst Bishop Male
Birth about 1840
Grahamstown, Cape, South Africa Parents
William Karst Bishop - Male
Anna Johanna Carolina Timm - Female
This (unrelated to me) Bishop Family had its start round about the arrival of the 1820 British Settlers. It would seem that they settled in the Eastern Cape area, also making their way to Natal, where many still are descendants. I have visited on occasion with members of this Bishop Family. Very good people. One just has to mention the 1820 British Settlers and they would immediately claim you as theirs.
The other Branch of the Bishop Family is the one that arrived at the Cape of Good Hope, from Scotland. John Bishop was the son of William Bishop, which seems to be the reason why some researcher are misguided, since both original Bishop men had the name ‘William’ in their families. This Scottish William Bishop's son John, was a British soldier, who served both on the Atlantic island St. Helena. (Yes, the same place where Napoleon was held.) and in the Cape of Good Hope, now known as Cape Town. His wife gave birth on the Island to a son named James McKay Bishop. John eventually briefly returned first the Cape, then to Scotland after his service. Then finally settled in South Africa. This James M. Bishop had several children, one of them was named George James Bishop. George had several children, while living in the province of Orange Free State, South Africa. One of those children was my Mother, Sarah Louisa Bishop who died in 2005 at the age of 89.
Surely, the best proof we have of people is found in Birth, Christening, Marriage, and Death notices or certificates. Following those records, lead to better and more secure researching of Genealogical lines. Please be so kind as to share with others the information you have. Your knowledge and recorded proof would be most welcomed by others who might just be a little confused. You are so appreciated for reading and learning about the two (2) main Bishop families in South Africa. Do have a good day. Edv. vangasser .