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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: Lleucu on Tuesday 20 May 14 11:38 BST (UK)
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I'm looking for any information on Mary Davies, nee Clifford, who states that she was born in Lavister Flintshire on the 1851 census. Her age at that time is 43 - in 1841 its slightly different, she was 30.
Both census show the family in Gayton in the Wirral
Her first born was named Mathew followed by Betsey - don't know if they are a clue but they are not the names of her husbands' parents. ( They are John and Isabella and husband is James)
Would be very grateful for any details, especially those of her birth.
Thanks in advance,
Lleucu
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Sorry missed the Gayton Wirral connection.
Deleted info
Tinam
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In the 1871 Census Mary is given as born in Pulford Cheshire.Though this is no real help either as I have searched across the three counties,Denbighshire,Flintshire and Cheshire for a suitable Mary Clifford birth but to no avail.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Hello Lleucu,
The search for Mary Clifford has drawn a complete blank. Do you know when and where she married James Davies?
Lavister is very close to Rossett and I would have expected a baptism to have been found there. Pulford has a church but I am not sure when it dates from. Pulford is on the Grosvenor Estate. The church at St Mary, Eaton, is a possible place to search too.
Jo.
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I notice that in the 1871, Mary is shown as aged 66 years, James as 59 years. That puts her year of birth as c1805.
In the 1881, Mary's place of birth is Pulford again. This time her age is given as 79, so year of birth c1802. James age shown as 69!
There is no sign of her in the 1891 census.
There is a tree on Ancestry which shows her as born 1802 in Pulford, Cheshire. She died in 1884 according to that source.
You might be better posting this on the Cheshire Board and the Denbighshire Board possibly as Lavister is in Denbighshire.
Jo.
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I have just seen that in the 1851 census in Pulford, there are entries for Matthew Clifford age 72 born Gresford and his wife Betty, age 71, born Pulford.
Are they the parents of Mary?
Jo
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Hi William and Jo, many thanks for your interest and help. Yes, its very frustrating. Her ages, as you say Jo are all to pot and is no help.
As to her marriage. Mary married James Davies on 20th October 1834 at St Peter, Church Street, Liverpool - long gone! I do not understand why they got married there but I have another couple in my family who married there as well. If anyone knows why people from the Wirral marry in Liverpool I'd be interested to know.
I have also found the Clifford family in Poulton but have been unable to find the link, although there are a number of names in common. There is a Mathew Clifford( Born in Gresford) who died in 1860 aged 81 and a Betsey Clifford who died in 1865 aged 85??? So?
I have the birth certificate for Mary and James' daughter Isabella in 1840 and Mary is described as Mary Davies formerly Clifford.
But she is a mystery!
Is there any other way of pinpointing her?Please come forward with any suggestions.
In the meantime thanks for everything -and for checking the 3 counties William.
Lleucu
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Hello Lleucu,
Have you seen the entry in the parish registers for their marriage in 1834? This might reveal the name and occupation of Mary's father.
I also have ancestors who married in Liverpool. They were from Mold, Flintshire and Chester/Cheshire. I don't know of any obvious connection to Liverpool. Why they should marry in Liverpool is a mystery to me. I do wonder if the marriage was disapproved of by one, or both, sets of parents and they went out of the area. One possibility is that the groom was working for the railway and working in Liverpool when they married.
The 1841 census shows Matthew and Elizabeth Clifford living in Pulford village. The household includes Sarah Clifford, age 20 and James Clifford, age 15. All four people show they were born in county, ie Cheshire. Relationships were not given in the 1841 but it looks reasonable to assume that Sarah and James were children of Matthew and Elizabeth Clifford. Bear in mind that in the 1841 census, ages were rounded up, or down, to the nearest 5 years, so 20 and 15 would be rounded figures.
I don't know if you have tried to link Sarah and James to Mary Clifford. I noticed that Sarah married in St Oswald's, Chester, in 1843. Her father is shown as Matthew Clifford.
I noticed that Matthew Clifford was buried in Pulford in 1860. Betty was buried there in 1865.
Elizabeth Clifford can be found in the 1861 census in Moor Bridge, Saltney. She is aged 81, a widow and described as "Mother". The head of the household is William Evans, age 40, Railway Lab. born Pulford, his wife is Martha Evans, age 42, born Pulford.
I wonder if Elizabeth was married before in view of her age difference to Matthew Clifford. Could Mary have been a daughter by her first husband?
My advice would be to put a post on the Cheshire Board requesting that someone do a look up in Chester RO to see if they can find a baptism for Mary Clifford in Pulford. It could be that she was baptised in one of the churches in Chester however.
Jo.
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Marriage: 20 Oct 1834 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
James Davies - (X), Labourer, This parish
Mary Clifford - (X), Spinster, This Parish
Witness: William Birch; Elizabeth Davies
Married by Banns by: Richard Appleton, Ass Curate
Lancs online parish clerks
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Hello, been away for a few days. Thanks Jo and Wilcoxon for your messages and suggestions. I was thinking along the same lines as you Jo, re Elizabeth (Betty) after finding her with William and Martha Evans. However I think that it should have read 'mother in law' on the census ( or 'mother' was linked to Martha) as I have found a marriage for a William Evans and a Martha Clifford in St Mary's Pulford in 1845. Martha was born 1819 father Matthew.
As you can see from Wilcoxons' post the marriage details of James and Mary do not help with their parentage.
Thanks for the info on Sarah's marriage - it helps to build a picture but still no sign of Mary or of Matthew and Elizabeth's marriage.
Still looking, you've all been a great help. If you come across anything further please let me know.
Lleucu
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I thought a search of the Tithe maps may help, oddly there is only one Clifford showing in Cheshire .
http://maps.cheshire.gov.uk/tithemaps/Search.aspx?srch=st.1!n.clifford!x.0
You can see the plot was opposite the Church and very close to the Grosvenor Arms, very close to the border of Wales.
Pulford
Landowner Daniel Lea ,
Occupiers Matthew Clifford, John Davies, John Hall, William Roberts.
Cottages and Gardens Building and Garden .
There`s only two Cliffords in the Cheshire Will section. Both much later than yours.
http://archivedatabases.cheshire.gov.uk/RecordOfficeWillEPayments/results.aspx?srch=basic&fn=&sur=clifford&ab=&sy=&ey=&sort=Surname
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Another little dig finds Matthew Clifford at Pulford in 1838.
Chester Chronicle 2 November 1838
To be sold by Auction at the house of Mr Timothy Lee , the Talbot Inn in Pulford on 6th November 1838.
Five dwelling houses etc in several occupations of Matthew Clifford, William Roberts, John Davies, John Hill and Joseph Catherall. .
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There is a Mathew Clifford( Born in Gresford) who died in 1860 aged 81
Denbigh baptisms. Probably Gresford as other place names fit.
March 24th 1780
Twins, Sam`ll & Mathew children John Cliffer Allington.
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looks like last find is a wrong un, Free reg has this.
Gresford Church
Burial Date 04 Nov 1780
Mathew Son of John
Surname CLIFFER
Age Abode Burton
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Gosh Wilcoxon you have been busy.
Grateful thanks for all that you have discovered, its all interesting and I wish that it lead somewhere.
Why do you suppose that there is no record of Matthew and Elizabeth (Betty) being married.
Is it possible that there are still some records from this area that have not been included on the usual sites?
It is a puzzle isn't it - looks like Gresford needs to be investigated!
All the best,
Lleucu
;)
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Not much more, but I found a sister to Sarah Clifford.
At the marriage of Sarah Clifford / Edward Tilley 1843
One of the witnesses was Fanny Clifford. Frances was Sarah`s elder sister.
https://familysearch.org/search
Frances Clifford Cheshire Bishop's Transcripts, 1598-1900
christening: 26 May 1822 residence Pulford,
father: Matthew Clifford mother: Betty
Sarah Cliffer ,Cheshire Bishop's Transcripts, 1598-1900
christening: 9 July 1815 Pulford, Cheshire, England
residence: 9 July 1815 , Pulford, Cheshire, England
father: Matthew Cliffer mother: Elizabeth
1851 Everton Liverpool
Edward Tilley 31 b Liverpool
Sarah Tilley 34 b Pulford ( Clifford)
Name: James Clifford Event Type: Intended Marriage Event Date: 21 Oct 1855
Event Place: , Stoke (near Chester), Cheshire, England
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Lloyd .
I can`t find an image to check that his father is Mathew.
1861 Pulford
James Clifford 33 b Pulford
Elizabeth Clifford 29 b Llay
Matthew Clifford 3
Name: Barbara Clifford Event Type: Christening
Event Date: 04 Jul 1869 Event Place: Pulford, Cheshire, England
Father's Name: James Clifford Mother's Name: Hannah
1871 Pulford
James Clifford 44 b Pulford
Hannah Clifford 40 b Gresford
Barbara Clifford 1
James Clifford
England, Cheshire Bishop's Transcripts, 1598-1900
birth: 1825 burial: 7 June 1892 residence: 7 June 1892 St. Mary, Pulford,
There was another girl whose baptism hasn`t been found.
Elizabeth Clifford England, Cheshire Bishop's Transcripts, 1598-1900
birth: 1810 burial: 25 March 1827 Pulford, Cheshire, England
There is nothing on the register entry to say who she is.
I wonder if there are years missing in the registers of Pulford and Gresford ?
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What can I say Wilcoxon, you're a star. Thanks ever so much for putting all that together for me. Believe me its much appreciated.
I too have been wondering what has happened to the earlier records of Pulford district. I think that they might be under St Oswalds Chester but so far I have not found any trace of them.
A visit to Chester record office would probably be the most sensible thing but unfortunately I am not able to do this at the moment.
My gut feeling is that this family is connected to 'my' Mary but need to prove it. Besides my gut may be wrong!!
One of these days I may get that 'Eureka' moment. Wouldn't that be something.
Cheers,
Lleucu
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I`m like a dog with a bone at this one ;D Could this be Frances Clifford.
1851 Huyton
Samuel Hamilton 28 farm lab b Gayton Cheshire
Frances Hamilton wife 29 b Pulford
William 5 b Gayton
John 1 b Raby
William baptised 3 Nov 1845 at Heswall son of Samuel and Fanny Hamilton.
No marriage found ?
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You're a trier Wilcoxon! That couple do look right with Gayton and Pulford together. It's really irritating that Mary is off the radar.
I imagine that she was the eldest in the family but will we ever know.
Still hunting!
All the best,
Lleucu - with thanks.