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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: DonnaLaundon on Tuesday 20 May 14 15:11 BST (UK)

Title: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: DonnaLaundon on Tuesday 20 May 14 15:11 BST (UK)
I am researching my family and have become stuck at my 2nd Great Grandfather who was called William Lawrance born in 1831 and died 1891 aged 59.  His father was called James but we have no dates for him or the name of his wife.

William was married twice but first wife name is missing although we have the children called Eliza (1870) and William (1872 - Bethnal Green).  His second wife was Emma Keen (1842) and they were married in 1873 in Stepney.  They had two children Henry J (1883 Bromley) and Alfred Arthur (1880 Bethnal Green) - He is my Grandmothers father who married Sarah Snellgrove (1883) from Mile End in 1901.

I would be very interested if anyone recognises these names or can help fill in the gaps as I would love to go back further.

Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: dawnsh on Tuesday 20 May 14 15:19 BST (UK)
Hi Donna

Welcome to Rootschat  ;D

Have you found your families in the censues?

If so, which ones?

Dawn
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: DonnaLaundon on Tuesday 20 May 14 15:32 BST (UK)
Hi Dawn ty for the welcome

A family member did a family tree trace and printed it out and gave it to my nan for her 100th birthday .  We have only got the information as far back as James Lawrance and Stephen Snellgrove (1794) who was Sarah Snellgrove's Paternal grandfather.

William was married twice and had two children by each wife.  We have the 2nd wife's children (which is my direct line) but do not have the first wife name or any information
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: dawnsh on Tuesday 20 May 14 15:58 BST (UK)


The first thing I notice is that the Lawrance surname is prone to variant spellings!
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 20 May 14 16:02 BST (UK)
Welcome Donna :)

Is this your William with a wife named Elizabeth in 1881?

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X32G-QR1
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: rolnora on Tuesday 20 May 14 16:19 BST (UK)
I have been looking at that 1881 census thinking it was a good fit.
But it can't be if he married Emma Keen in 1873.
 There is a marriage for this couple 14 April 1873, Stepney Middlesex
Added
It does say William Widowed

Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 20 May 14 16:22 BST (UK)
The children are with widowed Emily Keene in 1891 - odd for her to be Keene if she'd been married to William.

1891 census: RG12/323/63/19

2 Gale St, Bromley


Emily KEENE Head Wid 47 Coke dealer Hackney
Alfred L do Son 11 Scholar Bethnal Green
Henry LAWRANCE Son 8 Scholar Bromley
William LAWRANCE Son 19 Coke dealer Bethnal Green
Eliza J LAWRANCE Daur 21 Tin polisher Bethnal Green
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 20 May 14 16:26 BST (UK)
We then see the marriage of Eliza as follows:

Marriage, Dec qtr 1893

Eliza LAWRANCE
John Hamilton P NICOL

Poplar 1c 975.

In 1901 John & Eliza Nicol have Alfred A (20) and Henry (18) Lawrence with them: RG13/349/135/17.
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 20 May 14 16:44 BST (UK)
I have been looking at that 1881 census thinking it was a good fit.
But it can't be if he married Emma Keen in 1873.
 There is a marriage for this couple 14 April 1873, Stepney Middlesex
Added
It does say William Widowed

Are there any ages or addresses on the 1873 marriage - & what is William's occupation?
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: rolnora on Tuesday 20 May 14 17:00 BST (UK)
No nothing other than
 William is widowed his father is James,
Emma is single father is Edwin
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 20 May 14 17:04 BST (UK)
William's age given as 41 and Emma's as 30, I see:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJ8Z-7FY
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: DonnaLaundon on Tuesday 20 May 14 17:06 BST (UK)
Well it all seems to fit with the information we have so far and indeed Eliza did marry a John Hamilton Pratt Nicol (what a name lol) and went on to have 4 children with him

The only stumbling blocks are the DOB for William which we have down as 1831 and the marriage to Emma which is given as 1873 although I suspect this could actually be 1883 as that seems to fit with the DOB of the children and would tie in with him still being married to Elizabeth in 1881.

I love how you have managed to find a residence and also an occupation
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: rolnora on Tuesday 20 May 14 17:15 BST (UK)
William's age given as 41 and Emma's as 30, I see:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJ8Z-7FY

I didn't think to look on family search for the marriage ???
William's age does fit for 1831/2
Emma/Emily  is about right  and coincides with the 1891 census
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 20 May 14 17:17 BST (UK)
I agree there are quite a few wrinkles still to sort out, including the following:

1. Where is Eliza's birth registration and who was her mother? (Ditto William)
2. Where was the family in 1871? (also where was Emma/Emily Keen(e), if not with them)
3. The 1873 marriage was definitely in 1873 - so why no children before 1881?
4. Oddities about the 1881 census if we have the right one - William's age & his wife's name of "Elizabeth".
5. What happened to Eliza & John Nicol after 1901 (you may know this?)

Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: dawnsh on Tuesday 20 May 14 17:18 BST (UK)
The marriage is definitely 1873, freebmd, familysearch, ancestry etc

The parish clerk/vicar has written Lawrence, William signs Lawrance so it is in the indexes as Lawrence
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: DonnaLaundon on Tuesday 20 May 14 17:25 BST (UK)
I think from the info you have found we can assume Elizabeth(?) died in 1872 possibly as a result of giving birth to son William :(

Eliza Lawrance was born in 1870/71 and married John H P Nicol in 1887.  From my records her mother was William's first wife
The only clue as to location is Bethnal Green in 1872
Unsure about Eliza Nicol after 1900 as my records only list the 4 children being born in 1894(John H P),1896(Eliza A),1898(Henry A) and 1900 (Alexander P)
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 20 May 14 17:29 BST (UK)
I don't think you should assume anything about William's first wife. 

We don't know her name (the only Elizabeth we see is enumerated as William's wife in 1881; that may be a census error or it may not).

We don't know whether she gave birth to Eliza and/or William.  Without their births or baptisms or an 1871 sighting it remains possible that they were born to Emma/Emily before she married William in 1873.  Or for that matter they may be something to do with the Elizabeth we see in 1881, if she is a separate person.

William stated he was a widower on remarriage in 1873, but might have been widowed many years earlier, for all we (currently) know.

Hence the (suggested) forensic approach to try & find each record & piece together the chronology step by step :)
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: DonnaLaundon on Tuesday 20 May 14 17:43 BST (UK)
Just trying to see if it is possible to find out more details using the children.  It is a pity there is no mother listed on Williams marriage record as that is one of the pieces we would love to find out
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 20 May 14 17:58 BST (UK)
Unfortunately an English marriage certificate does not name the mother of either party as such (she may appear as a witness of course).

There is no reason in principle why the identity of William's mother should not be ascertainable from the censuses, but you will have to trace him back through them in order to make sure you are following the right person, until (with luck) you find him with his parents in early life.  There may be a baptism for him but if you are right about his birthdate there will not be a civil registration of his birth as that only started in 1837.

Obviously his names are not uncommon which is why we want to help you amass as much detailed information as possible (documented ages, marriages, occupations, addresses can all be invaluable) so as to ensure the wrong man is not followed.
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: dawnsh on Tuesday 20 May 14 22:48 BST (UK)
According to the School admission registers, Eliza Lawrence was admitted to St Pauls Road School, 16 May 1881, dob 22.10.1870

Father shown as William, a Coke Dealer, of 1 Gale Street but they weren't at that address on the 1881 census 6 weeks earlier.
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: DonnaLaundon on Tuesday 20 May 14 22:52 BST (UK)
Think we need a "tearing hair out" smiley lol I have spent the last few hours going over the details we have along with those that you guys have found a lot faster than I ever could.  Again only a possible but I think I have found a reference to a wife for James Lawrence, the father of William,which is Elizabeth Banks, although no dates for either which is annoying as it would allow me to go back further.

How some of you manage to do this all the time for your own trees let alone others and manage to find the correct information is amazing.
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: Millmoor on Tuesday 20 May 14 23:47 BST (UK)
Hi

Here is some further info from the parish record of the marriage of William Lawrence and Emma Keen

William Lawrence 41  Widower General Dealer Residence 40 John Street Father named as James Lawrence, a silk merchant
Emma Keen 30 Spinster No occupation given Residence 40 John Street Father Edwin Keen Blacksmith.

William signed his name but Emma made a mark. I cannot work out the first names of the witnesses but surnames were Price and possibly Rickett. There is also a banns notice dated 6 April 1873. Marriage was on 14th April Stepney St Dunstans and All Saints.

Cheers

William
Title: Re: Researching the Lawrance and Snellgrove families
Post by: avm228 on Tuesday 20 May 14 23:55 BST (UK)
Father shown as William, a Coke Dealer, of 1 Gale Street but they weren't at that address on the 1881 census 6 weeks earlier.

The address is interesting given that the widowed Emily Keene (coke dealer) and children were at 2 Gale St in 1891.