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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: dzj53 on Thursday 22 May 14 03:21 BST (UK)
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having A problem finding out what happened to Duncan Fraser &his wife Mary kempt, William kempt Mary Fraser were her parents, Duncan in 1841 gairloch census has them in sands gairloch, nothing about him in 1851 census, they had 11children which most of them are in nova Scotia,I am new to all this any help would be greatly appreciated thank you Douglas fraser
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I'm totally bewildered by this - the Duncan Fraser in Sand, Gairloch is married to an Isabella and familysearch shows Duncan Fraser married Isobel McKenzie 8/3/1805 Gairloch.
Nowhere can I find a Duncan Fraser married to a Mary Kempt and nor can I find any children born of such a union. There a 3/4 trees on Ancestry but all vague to say the least.
What are the sources besides the 1841 census entry you cite which, as already said above, was for Duncan married to Isabella?
Right now this isn't making any sense to me at all, I'm afraid.
Annette
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Apologies - I should, of course, have said welcome to Rootschat (where we all like to help if we can).
Which child of Duncan (and Mary Kempt??) are you connected to? Which ones ended up in Nova Scotia? Perhaps we can attack the problem from that angle.
Annette
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Hi Douglas and Annette
Welcome from me too, Douglas :)
I think this is the death of one of the children's of Duncan and Mary. An Ann Fraser who looks to have married an Alexander Hamish MacPherson. Likely death details here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F2P6-2V3
Marriage for Ann and Alexander showing in Scotland in 1829 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYQV-9TY A son's marriage in NS here marriage https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F2L4-LRZ?cc=1520608
Struggling to see much more at present. Except as you mentioned, Annette, Duncan shows with an Isabella in 1841 so perhaps Mary Kemp died and he remarried in 1805?
Monica
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Hi Monica
I don't think they have the right Duncan. Unfortunately the online trees give no real sources, with children born in Canada when family supposedly living in Ross & Cromarty. Contradictory facts i.e. some say Mary Kempt, another Margaret. The latter states she was b.1791 and yet gave birth to Ann in 1797!!! - at least one of them states Duncan died 1841 in Berwickshire! They seem totally at odds with each other which is why I suggested we take a step or two forward thus working back from the known to try and unravel it.
When, for instance, did these various children of Duncan and Mary/Margaret go to Nova Scotia.
The trees have them in 2 places at once.
Annette
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I know, Annette :-\ Hard to connect to records or online trees really. Hopefully Douglas you can add a little more details :)
Monica
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hello Annette and Monica and thank you so much for helping me, Duncan Fraser, b1871 m Mary Kemp living in sands, gairloch 184 1 census
C-1. Ann Fraser 1797gairloch d 2/17/1871, m, Alexander McPherson 12/25/1829, d, 5/15/1871 cape north N.S. c2. Annabel Fraser 1799 silteag na comraich ross-shire m, john McKenna, both died in cape north,N.S. c3. Donald Fraser 1801, gairloch d. 2/7/1874 Kemp head N.S. m. Isabella McGregor c4. Mary fraser1812 gairloch still living 1851 gairloch c5. Roderick 1814 gairloch d.1892 pleasant bay,N.S. m. Isabella brain c6. Alexander 1821 gairloch (41 census)was living 1866 m. Murdina maclenna 3/10/1853(church record) c7. Margaret 1826 gairloch m. Donald McDonald from ported Skye. C8. Catherine 1826 gairloch, was a widower 1881 Clifton, Ontario m. Robert Anderson 1/10/1850 (twin to margaret ?) C9. Kenneth 1827 gairloch (41 census) d. 1906 gairloch c10.Isabel 1828 gairloch (41 census) d.1906 gairloch(died during snow storm a couple days apart from c.9 kenneth) c11.Alexander 1831 gairloch (41census) m. Murdina McDonald 2/26/1857(vital records 1857. C3. Donald, c1.Alexandre 1825 cape Brenton m.Elean'Or Anderson 5/21/1853 wolfe island, Ontario d. 10/29/1908 Riverdale township, iowa USA. Alex had son donald roderick 1867,wolfe island, his son Donald alexander 6/19/1892, riverdale twps. Iowa, his on carol 1921, Iowa is my father I hope this will help, sorry about delay in getting back to you,douglas
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Hi Douglas
As Annette mentioned earlier, did Duncan remarry after Mary Kemp? From the 1841:
Duncan Fraser 60 carpenter
Isabella Fraser 50
Mary Fraser 25
Alexr Fraser 20
Kenneth Fraser 15
Margaret Fraser 15
Isabella Fraser 13
Alexr Fraser 10
Address: Sand, Gairloch
The 1841 census is the most limited in terms of info. Relationships within the household were not included and ages for those over 15 were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5 years. For example, the Duncan above showing as 60, could actually be anywhere between 60-64.
From your info, certainly looks like a lot if not the whole family (or at least the children, maybe also parents) headed off to Canada/US?
Monica
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Unfortunately, Douglas, you haven't mentioned any source that cites 'Mary Kempt or Kemp' as the mother of your Donald Fraser or Duncan Fraser as his father.
I personally do not believe that the Duncan Fraser bc.1781 in Gairloch in 1841 with wife Isabella (nee Mackenzie whom he married in 1805) is the father of Donald - however, even if he was, the children you list from 1812 to 1829 (youngest, Alexander, was actually born 1829) are all children of Duncan Fraser and Isabella Mackenzie!
Unfortunately, parish records for Gairloch pre 1801 do not appear to be on line. I'm afraid I simply do not have the time to be able to check all the individuals here - have done some looking on Scotlands People for you but can't afford to do any more checks there. However, I can tell you that Kenneth b.1827 was not the one to die in Gairloch in 1906. That Kenneth Fraser was aged 89 (i.e. bc.1817) and death certificate shows his parents as James Fraser, Farm Grieve, and Mary MacKenzie!! You say that Isabel 1828 also died in Gairloch in 1906. I actually searched 2 years either side of this year and only one entry comes up: Isabella Fraser 82, single, d.5/1/1907 and this confirms her parents to be Duncan Fraser and Isabella Mackenzie.
With no access to online records for Gairloch pre 1801 I cannot, therefore, find Donalds' birth/baptism to confirm his parents names, nor that of his 2 given older sisters Ann 1797 and Annabel 1799. All the births/baptism of children from Mary 1812 are certainly children of Duncan and Isabella (and not Mary Kemp/Kempt).
Annette
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I thought this may be interesting....
https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/fraser/2700/
I do own a copy of the Cape North book. There is actual suggestion that Mary Fraser actually had two marriages as well and it's supported with DNA descendants of both that are suggested to be the same person.
This Mary Fraser connects with the Kempt/Kemp family of Kemptville, Boularderie, Nova Scotia and with some Fraser families in the Cape North area. I was REALLY confused for a while via DNA matches. I'm working on it more tonight and came across this message.
If anyone is interested I can share more via email. My email is (*).
Jessie
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Well since my email was edited out, please message me for more information.
I can confirm without a doubt that Duncan Fraser was married twice. Firstly, to Mary Kempt and secondly to Isabella McKenzie. Mary Kempt was the daughter of William Kempt and Mary Fraser.
Currently I'm working with DNA of about 30-40 people to see if the family story that Mary Fraser was married before to my ancestor is true. DNA looks to support this and if that's true, then Mary Fraser was also married to a Captain John McKenzie from Smithtown, Gairloch. They had a daughter named Annabella/Arabella McKenzie who married Murdoch Weaver McKenzie. They were my 4th great grandparents.
These families heavily migrated to Cape Breton and settled St. Ann's and Boularderie in Cape Breton. In the early 1850's a bunch of them decided to follow Reverend Norman McLeod and ended up in Australia for a year or so and then onto Waipu, New Zealand.
I can provide more information if anyone wants to private message me and we can switch to email or something. I have a few books from Cape Breton that also support the DNA.
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Jessiboo, I am interested that you say you can confirm "without doubt" that Duncan was married to Mary Kempt.
Duncan is my 3x great grandfather and I can only find a record for him marrying Isobell McKenzie.
Looking through OPR records, there is no record for a marriage to Mary Kempt.
In fact searching for all marriage records across all of Scotland for records where the bride's name begins with "Kemp" during 1780-1805 there are no records where the grooms name is either Duncan or Fraser, so I would be really interested to know how you are able to "confirm without a doubt".
If my 3x Great grandfather has other descendants, I would love to be able to include them in my family tree.
Regards
Well since my email was edited out, please message me for more information.
I can confirm without a doubt that Duncan Fraser was married twice. Firstly, to Mary Kempt and secondly to Isabella McKenzie. Mary Kempt was the daughter of William Kempt and Mary Fraser.
Currently I'm working with DNA of about 30-40 people to see if the family story that Mary Fraser was married before to my ancestor is true. DNA looks to support this and if that's true, then Mary Fraser was also married to a Captain John McKenzie from Smithtown, Gairloch. They had a daughter named Annabella/Arabella McKenzie who married Murdoch Weaver McKenzie. They were my 4th great grandparents.
These families heavily migrated to Cape Breton and settled St. Ann's and Boularderie in Cape Breton. In the early 1850's a bunch of them decided to follow Reverend Norman McLeod and ended up in Australia for a year or so and then onto Waipu, New Zealand.
I can provide more information if anyone wants to private message me and we can switch to email or something. I have a few books from Cape Breton that also support the DNA.
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Hello Cmbh1,
By using DNA I am able to segregate lines of descendants. Because it's rather close to about the year 1800 when the split in the DNA (a married couple that are common ancestors of all the DNA testers that descend from separate siblings), I am able to find common segments of DNA. The length of the segment would indicate the likely distance of the relationship along with the total amount of DNA shared on all shared segments.
For example, children share 50% of their DNA with parents, 25% with grandparents, 12.5% with great grandparents, etc.
Among the descendants in the family lines, there have been rumours of a double marriage for Duncan Fraser, and going back a bit further, for the mother of Mary Kempt who married Duncan Fraser.
There is one descendant of Ann Fraser, daughter to Duncan Fraser and Mary Kempt (daughter of William Kempt and Mary Fraser).
There are about 5 descendants of Katherine Kempt, daughter of William Kempt and Mary Fraser.
There are 30+ descendants of Murdoch Weaver McKenzie and Arabella/Annabella McKenzie (daughter of Captain John McKenzie and Mary Fraser).
There are about 5 descendants of Gregor Kempt, son of William Kempt and Mary Fraser.
The common ancestor of all descendants is a Mary Fraser. At this point we do not know her parents names, but there are connections to MacRae/McRaes via DNA for her and her descendants.
Mary Fraser married a William Kempt. The "T" on the end of Kempt seems to have been added about this same time. I have an article on William's father who married many times and fathered over 20 children.
Mary Fraser and William Kempt had a few children of which, descendants of Mary Fraser's first marriage and second marriage are matching in extremely large segments.
Duncan Fraser married a daughter of Mary Fraser and William Kempt and had a few children in the 1790's. Records for Gairloch do not exist unless they were in records kept by the well to do families. There are patches of unkempt records all over Western Scotland that simply do not have records at all for that time period. The Hebrides are a perfect example.
I have been working on the DNA of this group of descendants of these families for about 3.5 years now and have done paper trail genealogy for 24 years and am in the process of becoming certified. I have more in the way of DNA showing the relationship and paper trails for what is available in Gairloch, Cape Breton, Australia, and New Zealand during the time frame. If helpful, I have a book from Cape Breton written in 1933 that shows the author then knew of the family connection of the Kempts to the Frasers.
Actually, as far as I know, we have never been in contact with a descendant of Duncan Fraser and Isabel McKenzie. It would be interesting if you or anyone in your family that descends from them have been DNA tested. I'm certain there will be matches between any of you and any of us on these other lines. I'd be interested in discussing this further too if you would be interested.
If you read this older post as well, it has more information on it. I'm in contact with the author too who is a genealogist. It may give more information you can check on Scotland's People. (https://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/fraser/2700/)
Please feel free to message me and I can give you my email. I'm more than willing to share everything I have on this small project I'm working on. It's all to try and tell who Mary Fraser's Frasers are and exactly where our McKenzie line breaks off from the major line. We have the mutation SNP on the Y chromosome which is considered an identifying marker for Gairloch McKenzie line.
Let me know if that makes sense or if you have any other questions. :)
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Hi Jessieboo,
I tried to message you but it says I’m not allowed to send messages.
I’ve just ordered a DNA kit so will hopefully have results early next year.
Regards
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Hi Jessieboo,
I tried to message you but it says I’m not allowed to send messages.
I’ve just ordered a DNA kit so will hopefully have results early next year.
Regards
Reply to this message and then you can send PMs.
Jamjar
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Thanks Jamjar 😀
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Duncan Fraser is also my 3x great grandfather, I am descended from his son the second Alexander Fraser who did not emigrate to Nova Scotia. I have researched the family tree over the last 3 years by the use of paper records and now have a tree with 3,973 people in it. I would be interested in sharing my information with you both.
Please contact me through the PM facility
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Please contact me through the PM facility
Welcome to RootsChat :)
To send or receive PMs, you will need to post twice more. Just saying hello would be sufficient.
Carol
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Hello
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Hello