RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: fantasyfudge on Saturday 24 May 14 22:27 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I was wondering if anyone can help?
I have been trying to research an ancestor for a while now and apart from on her children's baptism records I cannot find anything about her at all.
Her married name is Rebecca Judith Larcher I believe that her maiden name is Martley.
Her date of birth is approx. 1771 in Shoreditch, Middlesex and she died in approx. 1836 in Bethnal Green ( I have this info from other family trees in Ancestry.
Her first child was born in approx. 1801 and she was married to Andrew Larcher, dob 1777, death 1847 Bethnal Green.
I believe that they lived in Gibraltar Gardens, Bethnal Green.
Any info or help on this would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
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First of all - trees on Ancestry are not a reliable source! Unless the person can back them up with evidence, I wouldnt take any notice of them.
If you have found the children's baptisms, and they are the correct people you are tracing, then work back from them. HAve you found Andrew on 1841 census?
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As a aside, is this one of her children's marriages?
21 Aug 1821
St Giles, Cripplegate
John Miller , bachelor of this parish to Ann Rebecca LArcher spinster of this parish
He signed, she made mark
Witnesses : William Miller and Rebecca Larcher (both signed)
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My first reaction is that 1771 seems early for Rebecca's birth, making her some 6 years older than her husband and aged 30 on the birth of her first known child.
When was her last child born? I see an 1820 nonconformist baptism for a son Thomas Mark on Familysearch - was this an infant baptism?
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Hi
Trees on Anc* are definitely wrong, one marriage quoted in May 1790 is NOT correct. This Andrew Larcher married Sarah Grafton, and only 13 years old :o
claire
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This old thread mentions the same couple several times:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=91844.0
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Hi,
Thanks for your replies.
I have learnt my lesson the hard way with regards to Anc and have had to scrap my first tree before now and start a new one which is why I am now checking on the Family search website and also asking questions on here from you lovely more experienced researchers.
Yes, the Ann Rebecca is a child of My Rebecca Larcher and Thomas Mark is her last know child, but try as I might on the various websites I cannot find any birth, marriage or death record for her.
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Not all Parish Registers are online anywhere. So she must have either not been christened , or was done in a parish not online. Likewise a marriage, maybe she didnt marry, or it was in a parish where the records are not online. As for burial , well she couldnt opt out of that!
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What is the basis for thinking she was born c1771, and born in Shoreditch?
Has Thomas Mark been traced in other records to find his approximate date of birth? If he was a baby when baptised in 1820 then Rebecca must have been younger than you think.
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The birth record of Thomas Mark LARCHER in 1820 names his mother as Rebecca Judith, daughter of John MARTLY (or HARTLY?) weaver of Bethnal Green.
I have not yet found any information on Rebecca's baptism, marriage (to Andrew LARCHER before 1804), or death/burial.
Andrew is alone on the 1841 census in Gibraltar Gardens, Bethnal Green (so Rebecca may have died before 1841. I can't see a death for her on FreeBMD so she may have died before 1837.
If any Rootschatter could cast fresh eyes on the search for Rebecca's B,M or D record I would be most grateful.
Philip
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Hi Philip
Her death is registered as ANN Rebecca Larcher in 1838 ( if it is her)
Ann Rebecca Larcher buried 26 July 1838 aged 54 at Bethnal Green.
Abode: Gibralter Gardens.
Claire
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Hi Philip
Her death is registered as ANN Rebecca Larcher in 1838 ( if it is her)
Ann Rebecca Larcher buried 26 July 1838 aged 54 at Bethnal Green.
Abode: Gibralter Gardens.
Claire
Many thanks for this, Claire. I had seen and discounted this entry on FreeBMD as the name Rebecca does pop up in the family several times. However, given that the family was in Gibraltar Gardens in 1820, and as the age is given as 54 (a little young, but not unreasonable) I will have to think again.
Could I be cheeky and ask if a kind Rootschatter would do a quick search for this Rebecca on the 1841 and 1851 census around the Bethnal Green/Spitalfields area?
Philip
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Hi
Can't see a Rebecca on either 1841 or 51. Sorry.
The burial for Ann Rebecca was at St Matthews Bethnal Green.
Can't find a baptism either, the nearest is a NC baptism of an Ann HARLY, parents Timothy and Ann. At Holborn Lying in Hospital in 1784.
Claire
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Rootschatter Barbara_F has kindly found a non-conformist baptism for:
15 April 1764 - Rebekah, daughter of John Hartley, mercer, Fleet Street.
My Rebecca's youngest child (Thomas Mark Larcher) was born 15 Jan 1820. On the Protestant Dissenters Register Andrew Larcher marks, but Rebecca signs Rebeker Larcher. Her father is named as John Hartly, weaver.
For the two to be the same person, John would have to have changed occupation from mercer (textile merchant) to weaver, and Rebecca would have been (at least) nearly 56 when Thomas was born. However, Fleet Street is less than 3 miles from where the Larchers lived.
My gut feeling is that they are different Rebeccas, but is there a link?
Philip
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Hi
Can't see a Rebecca on either 1841 or 51. Sorry.
The burial for Ann Rebecca was at St Matthews Bethnal Green.
Can't find a baptism either, the nearest is a NC baptism of an Ann HARLY, parents Timothy and Ann. At Holborn Lying in Hospital in 1784.
Claire
Claire - many thanks for checking.
It is reasonable to believe that Rebecca died before 1841 and that the death in 1838 might be her (despite the first appearance of the name Ann). The given age (if reliable!) would mean she would have been in her early twenties when she married.
I think I will have to buy the certificate.
Philip
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The Larcher who was buried 30 October 1836 is Sarah Larcher wife of Andrew Larcher.
She was Sarah Grafton and married Andrew Larcher 24 May 1790 St Mary Spitalfields.
Their children were baptized 1791 (another Andrew) at St Leonard's through 1811 mostly at Spitalfields. Ten found so far.
Andrew Larcher on 1841 census appears to be the above Andrew (widower of Sarah) he is a silk weaver at Gibralter Gardens, Bethnal Green. His death is recorded 1847 Bethnal Green buried 2 May 1847 age 72 of Princes Street.
My reasoning is a poor law examination of Andrew Larcher junior who states he was apprenticed to Andrew Larcher senior in 1806 to learn the silk weaving trade. He would have been 14/15 years old.
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Whereas the Andrew son of Andrew and Rebecca was not born until 1813 and was buried 22 July 1838 age 25.
Rebecca is still alive 1821 when daughter Ann Rebecca marries John Miller 27 August 1821 as a witness she signs Rebecker Larcher, other witness William Miller
Again a witness when daughter Esther marries William Stevens 23 June 1823.
I found it odd that Rebecca could write but her daughters could not.
Is it possible Andrew had already died by 1821, given the time period in question wouldn't the father have made his mark rather than the mother even though she could write.
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Hi Philip
I will have a look through this whole thread later today as there is so much in it. The number of Andrew Larchers is definitely an issue and we need to distinguish between them. The Rebekah I found is really too old to be having a child in 1820.
Barbara
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Is it possible Andrew had already died by 1821, given the time period in question wouldn't the father have made his mark rather than the mother even though she could write.
Many thanks for this suggestion, and all the information.
Sorting out the different Andrew Larchers is a real nightmare. This is not the best thread to deal with the various Andrews as there are other threads dealing with the Larcher lines
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=91844.msg4804466#msg4804466
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=745484.msg5942702#msg5942702
I know from register images that my Andrew and Rebecca had 6 children (Esther 1804, Mary Ann 1806, Harriet 1811, Andrew 1813, and Thomas Mark 1820) from 1804 to 1820. They were living in Worship Street, then Gibraltar Gardens. I have seen a reference to Ann Rebecca's baptism in 1801 but not an image. Also, I have not seen images of the children's marriage registrations (except for Elizabeth to John Monks in 1828 where an Andrew Larcher makes his mark as witness). Ann Rebecca is the first born child found so far, and this would suggest a Larcher/Hartley(Martley?) marriage before 1801.
Sadly, the birth found by Barbara_F for Rebecca daughter of John Hartly in 1764 is unlikely to be my Rebecca as she would probably be too old to be having a child in 1820. However, I do think there must be some family connection.
The search goes on!
Philip
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Elizabeth Larcher married John Monks could also be the daughter of the other Andrew Larcher born 25 June 1802, he couldn't write either. Unfortunately the other witness seems to be the parish clerk.
The tree on ancestry has both families mixed together.
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Elizabeth Larcher married John Monks could also be the daughter of the other Andrew Larcher born 25 June 1802, he couldn't write either. Unfortunately the other witness seems to be the parish clerk.
The tree on ancestry has both families mixed together.
I previously wrote:
Sorting out the different Andrew Larchers is a real nightmare. This is not the best thread to deal with the various Andrews as there are other threads dealing with the Larcher lines
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=91844.msg4804466#msg4804466
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=745484.msg5942702#msg5942702
Please would it be possible to concentrate on Rebecca here, as this thread was originally about her?
Trees on Ancestry (and other sites) are too unreliable, so the only trustworthy information has to come from images and reliable transcripts.
With thanks
Philip
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Hi Philip
In your situation I think I would buy some death certificates.
Andrew b 1813 and Ann Rebecca were both buried in 1838 and the burial records show abode at death as Gibraltar Gardens. In 1841 there was an Andrew Larcher at that address aged 65.
Seeing who registered the deaths and any other information about the individuals may well help solve some problems eg Ann Rebecc's certificate should state whether she is a widow and if so will probably give her husband's name and occupation.
Barbara
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Hi Philip,
I agree here with Barbara, the death certificate should answer your questions regarding (Ann) Rebecca.
Going beck to the early baptism that Barbara found - this John Hartley baptised children until at least the late 1770's that I can see. Maybe ( I can't see a burial) this early Rebecca died and there is a later child born, more fitting with the 1784 YoB we are looking at.
Claire
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Many thanks, Barbara and Claire.
I have ordered the death certificate for "Ann Rebecca" 1838 to see if it can give extra information.
The age of Rebecca is a concern- I am inclined to agree with the idea that Rebekah bap1764 may have died young and another child been given the name. At the very least, I feel sure there is some degree of kinship.
Just to see if the names changed I checked the images for birth/baptism I have:
Mary Ann 1806 - Andrew and Rebecca (nonconformist)
Elizabeth 1808 - Andrew and Rebecca Judith (nonconformist)
Harriet 1811 - Andrew and Rebecca Judith (nonconformist)
Matthew 1813 - Andrew and Rebecca Judith (Shoreditch PR)
Thomas Mark 1820 - Andrew and Rebecca (cert of birth)
so no help there, except to confirm that the middle name Judith was not a one-off.
amondg has found "Rebecker" signing as witness to children's marriages in
As yet, I haven't looked at the siblings of Rebecca bap1764 (I'm holding back until I prove my Rebecca's birth). If the age on the death of Ann Rebecca 1838 (found by Claire) of 58 is correct this would suggest that Ann Rebecca was born c1784.
My next step is to see what the 1838 death cert says. Hurry up, GRO!
Philip
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The death cert has arrived.
Ann Rebecca LARCHER d 23 Jul 1838 at 10 Gibraltar Gardens, age 54, wife of Andrew LARCHER a weaver. Informant Andrew LARCHER widower (his mark). This has to be my Rebecca. I don't know where the name Ann is from (maybe the registrar made an error which Andrew, not being literate, would not have noticed or, more likely, the grieving Andrew got confused and gave his daughter's name by mistake).
The age of 54 gives a birth year of c1784 - which is 20 years after the baptism of Rebekah daughter of John HARTLEY, mercer of Fleet Street. Perhaps my Rebecca was the daughter of a brother of Rebekah?
The search goes on!
Philip
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That is good news Philip, at least one thing answered.
Here are the other children baptised to John Hartley at Carter Lane London, John was a mercer living on Fleet Street on all records
Thomas bpt. 12 Dec. 1762
Benjamin bpt. 23 Nov 1766
Fowler Bpt. 19 Feb. 1769
Smith John bpt. 13 Sept 1772
Martha bpt 16 Feb 1777
There is this one too -
Elizabeth HEARTLEY bpt. 7 June 1773 daughter of John HEARTLEY and Susannah his wife, he a weaver of ChristChurch Spitalfields
Not sure if it's the same family - only 9 months after the baptism of Smith John in 1772, possible but not sure.
Claire
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The above Elizabeth is a different family, the couple baptise a son Israel in 1777
Israel bpt. 1 June 1777 City Road, London, father John a weaver from ChristChurch Spitalfields and Susannah.
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The above Elizabeth is a different family, the couple baptise a son Israel in 1777
Israel bpt. 1 June 1777 City Road, London, father John a weaver from ChristChurch Spitalfields and Susannah.
(following your discovery of:
Elizabeth HEARTLEY bpt. 7 June 1773 daughter of John HEARTLEY and Susannah his wife, he a weaver of ChristChurch Spitalfields)
This is a great find. Thank you so much, Claire. I thought I had looked at all reasonable spelling variants of HARTLEY(MARTLEY?) but I had just not thought of HEARTLEY.
With this new discovery it seems much more likely that John HARTLEY (mercer) is a red herring (although possibly a relative) and that John and Susannah HEARTLEY are the couple of whom to track offspring.
Philip
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Found another child surname transcribed as HURDLEY
Mary bpt. 10 Feb 1771 dau of John a weaver of Red Lion Street, a weaver of the parish of ChristChurch Spitalfields and Susannah his wife.
I think we are getting there Philip - just need a bit of imagination when looking for a surname :)
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I'm going to throw this one in there too because of area etc.
St Matthew Bethnal Green
Ann Rebecca dau. of John HARVEY a weaver and Hannah his wife, bapt. 23 August 1786 born 13 July.
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I'm going to throw this one in there too because of area etc.
St Matthew Bethnal Green
Ann Rebecca dau. of John HARVEY a weaver and Hannah his wife, bapt. 23 August 1786 born 13 July.
Could you tell me if this is from a transcript, or if it is clear on the register page? I am reluctant to discount it, but (until I find a marriage record) my Rebecca's surname (as per snippet below) does not look like Harvey.
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Hi Philip
This family is definitely HARVEY, they have quite a few children all baptised at St Matthew, Bethnal Green, father a weaver quite clear on other baptisms, this is quite a poor record
Rebecca 1792, Jno 1779, George 1780 and James 1789
claire
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Hi Philip
This family is definitely HARVEY, they have quite a few children all baptised at St Matthew, Bethnal Green, father a weaver quite clear on other baptisms, this is quite a poor record
Rebecca 1792, Jno 1779, George 1780 and James 1789
claire
Many thanks for the confirmation, Claire. I think this has to be the wrong family. What I need to find (and I just can't see it) is a marriage for Andrew LARCHER and Rebecca. One day, I'll find it!
Philip
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Hi,
Just wondering if anyone has had any luck in tracing Rebecca yet?
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Hi,
Just wondering if anyone has had any luck in tracing Rebecca yet?
karennewman? fantasyfudge?
Still no luck on Rebecca yet.
Philip
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Hi Philip
I’m Jan, newbie to Rootschat and another cousin from Andrew and Rebecca Judith Larcher ...via their daughter Harriet and a very grateful one thanks to your emails with richarde1979! I have been stuck at John Larcher for sooooo many years (c.1990!) but now can take the leap back to Jacques in La Mothe ...Wow! ...Wandsworth magic!
Have not been in touch with Karen yet but it looks like three of us now linked from Andrew and Rebecca?
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Hi Philip
I’m Jan, newbie to Rootschat and another cousin from Andrew and Rebecca Judith Larcher ...via their daughter Harriet and a very grateful one thanks to your emails with richarde1979! I have been stuck at John Larcher for sooooo many years (c.1990!) but now can take the leap back to Jacques in La Mothe ...Wow! ...Wandsworth magic!
Have not been in touch with Karen yet but it looks like three of us now linked from Andrew and Rebecca?
Yay - a newly discovered cousin! Welcome to Rootschat! :) :) :)
richarde1979 is an awesome source of information on the Huguenots.
Rebecca Judith is still a mystery - there is some debate as to whether her surname is HARTLEY or MARTLEY - I haven't found the answer yet, but one day.........
Philip
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Thanks for the welcome. We’ve been hunting ancestors since the 1980s and still have lots of gaps in the numerous families, but regarding the origin of Rebecca Judith Larcher may I make the following observations....
There are two key issues 1) her given name 2) her birth date
I’ve found only 3 instances where the name Judith is written....the baptism records of her children: Elizabeth 1808, Harriet 1811, Andrew 1813. The other children just have the mother’s name as Rebecca. What’s more, on two instances where she signed her name, she writes Rebeker Larcher. NOTE : She COULD sign her name and no Judith.
Interestingly, her upward sloping signature might suggest she was left handed?
So I believe the Judith second name is a red herring regarding official records.
Rebecca Larcher (wife of Andrew) was recorded at her death (1838) as Ann Rebecca Larcher ...by her husband. Suggesting that WAS her given name, at least as far as HE was aware.
It’s quite plausible that with daughter and mother both Ann Rebecca some name modification was necessary to avoid family confusion. The use of Judith might have been personal choice ....or was it perhaps honouring some family member..... that might be a further clue?
There has been a lot of discussion about her maiden name....Martly, Hartley or Harvey. On the 1829 Thomas Mark Larcher birth record, the words Mark and Middlesex show how the M is formed by that scribe. It is clearly different from the letter that starts Rebecca’s maiden name. That’s an H!
The suggestion it could be Harvey is an interesting one. There is an Ann Rebecca born to John and Hannah Harvey in Bethnal Green in 1786 which, on face value, ticks her given name, father’s Christian name and is close to the birth date derived from the death certificate. It however poses 2 concerns....
1. Her first child Ann Rebecca was born 28/11/1801 when Ann Rebecca Snr would have been 15yr old! Not impossible of course and maybe a reason there isn’t a marriage to be found?
2. Unlike her husband and many poor weavers at that time, Rebecca could sign her name. Does this suggest a different community for her family origins?
For what it’s worth, I think there is an earlier Ann Rebecca Hartley out there ....somewhere.
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Hi,
I have recently started looking at this family for my cousin who is a descendant via Thomas WATLEY.
I have just located what looks very much like John HARTLEY's death ( record found on Findmypast & Ancestry.com)
First name(s) John
Last name Hartley
Age 67
Birth year 1744
Burial year 1811
Burial date 28 Jun 1811
Place Bethnal Green, Gibraltar Row Burial Ground
Denomination Protestant Dissenters
Original record states he was of the parish of Christchurch, Spitalfields and aged 67 years
,,,,
There was also a John HARTLEY aged 6 weeks buried at the same place on 7 Nov 1813
a Susannah HARTLEY aged 34 buried in the same place, of the parish of St Matthew BG, on 03 April 1803 ( she might be the daughter of Edmund & Susannah)
Then going to Spitalfields:
First name(s) Charles
Last name Hartley
Baptism date 01 Jan 1769
Address Red Lion Street
Father's first name(s) John
Father's occupation Weaver
Mother's first name(s) Susanna
Parish Christ Church, Spitalfields
.....
And this one:
Name: Mary Hartley
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 10 Feb 1771
Baptism Place: Christ Church, Spitalfields, Tower Hamlets, Middlesex, England
Father: John Hartley
Mother: Susanna Hartley
John is a weaver of Red Lion St ( see ancestry.com)
There is this one.....
Name: Ruth Hartley
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 23 Jan 1780
Baptism Place: St Mary, Whitechapel, Tower Hamlets, Middlesex, England
Father: Jno Hartley
Mother: Susannah Hartley
of Ducking Pond Lane
.................
after hours of searching, I found this marriage...I wonder?? They were both of Surrey ( see ancestry.com)..it is the only marriage with a Susannah
First name(s) John
Last name Hartley
Marriage year 1760
Marriage date 30 Jan 1760
Marriage place Newington St Mary
Spouse's first name(s) Susanna
Spouse's last name Corke
,,,,,
a poss death:
Name: Susanna Hartley
Birth Date: abt 1736
Event Type: Burial
Death Age: 53
Burial Date: 14 Oct 1789
of Ratcliffe Highway
Source
Parish Register Transcripts
County Surrey
Its late here now, so will get back to this tomorrow, all going well!
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OK...just a bit more and then its to bed!!
First name(s) Susannah
Last name Heartley
Birth year 1764
Birth date 16 Sep 1764
Baptism year 1764
Baptism date 21 Oct 1764
Father's first name(s) John
Mother's first name(s) Susannah
Parish St John the Evangelist, Smith Square
...............
First name(s) Mary
Last name Hurdley
Birth year 1771
Baptism year 1771
Baptism date 10 Feb 1771
Address Red Lion Street
Father's first name(s) John
Father's occupation Weaver
Mother's first name(s) Susanna
Parish Christ Church, Spitalfields
................
Name: Elizabeth Hartley
[Elizabeth Heartley]
Gender: Female
Event Type: Baptism
Father: John Heartley
Mother: Susanna
Baptism Date: 7 Jun 1773
Baptism Place: City Road, London, England
Denomination: Independent
Weaver of Christ Church Spitalfields
a child of Mr HEARTLEY's of Spitalfields:
Burial date 24 Apr 1766
Place -
Denomination Dissenters
Name: Israel Heartley
Gender: Male
Event Type: Baptism
Father: John Heartley
Mother: Susannah
Baptism Date: 1 Jun 1777
Baptism Place: City Road, London, England
Denomination: Independent
as above..weaver, etc
But he died young:
First name(s) Israel
Last name Hartley
Gender Male
Burial date 26 Jan 1784
Burial place Spitalfields, Middlesex, England
I have hunted everywhere for Rebecca, under all sorts of spellings. Am crossed eyed now! Not sure why she isn't coming up. I wonder if John remarried or something. Will try some more thoughts tomorrow as I have turned into a pumpkin ( it is now 1.00am!)
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Wow ...you are a Speedy Gonzales. ;D. Well done!
I had only just started the Hartley search this afternoon but had discovered Ruth, Israel and Susannah. We are on the same track! You just saved me some hard work. Thanks 😆
I had also seen the death of young Israel in 1784 and had been temporarily distracted from further sibling searching, by the notion that maybe, just maybe...the death of a child might have in some way distracted them from Christening Ann Rebecca????, as it WAS 1784, the very year that Andrew gave as her birth, in her death certificate???
The child of Mr Heartley buried in 1766 is in all probability a child of John / Susannah as there would seem to be a gap in their children’s baptisms in 1766.
John remarrying would have no bearing on AR. If HIS Susannah lived till 1789 and AR was born in 1784 she would be their offspring.
Time for bed here now. Wedding anniversary tomorrow so no genealogy. Thanks once again for your hard work. 👍
BTW...I am descended from Eliza Watley d. Thomas and Harriet Watley
One final tantalising thought... there is a Judith Corke being buried in 1768 in Godstone, Surrey (admittedly some miles south of Southwark) ..... Susannah’s mother?? Ann Rebecca’s grandmother......Judith!!?!?!?
Bed.
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Hi again!
Psssst...have you done a DNA test yet? Let me know because I have my cousins results and would LOVE to do some chromosome work on this line...if not, make sure you do the My Heritage test..it is amazing. ancestry.com is useless re DNA testing IMHO ( I did both)...I got MH to run a test on the ancestry.com results and was absolutely amazed at the difference in quality, and sheer amount of info, that was there but ancestry couldn't be bothered telling me about. Plus MH has some brilliant tools to help research. Ancestry is great for records but not for DNA ( IMHO)
My job today was to put on paper ( and later here), in chronological order, everyone we are pretty sure about....I was so tired last night I was just whacking things in!
Re Susannah...no g'tee that death in 1789 is her, or indeed the marriage is the right one...they just LOOK so promising. If both are ours, then Susannah was 7 or 8 years older than John and John was VERY young to be marrying this older woman!.
There was a victualler, William HARTLEY, married to a Rebecca, who had a daughter Rebecca 1785. I am toying with the idea she was given to John & Susannah ( if related), but I have also found a couple of Rebecca HARTLEY marriages in the early 1800's, so I'm not holding out tooo much hope.
It is very possible our Rebecca didn't get baptised as you say....I will see what other gaps appear when I get stuck back into this
The name HARTLEY is abundant in the North of England, so am thinking the origins will be found there somewhere
I'll get back later.
Congratulations and best wishes for your anniversary!
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Sitting here re reading all the posts and realised I am talking to my very own cousin......laugh my head off ...JF??...its JB here ( the clue is right there in my user name) :) When you mentioned wedding anniversary, I thought...oooh someone else mentioned that recently.....then I received your email just now, and REALLY thought it was you:)!!
Too funny.
So I'll take the opportunity to suggest ANYONE who has a DNA test, really should load it up to GEDMATCH ( Genesis)...it will give you matches from other DNA testing companies, and a whole lot more, it is free ( or a small fee for advanced stuff) and has some fun stuff too.
https://www.gedmatch.com/login1.php
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Re Susannah...no g'tee that death in 1789 is her, or indeed the marriage is the right one...they just LOOK so promising. If both are ours, then Susannah was 7 or 8 years older than John and John was VERY young to be marrying this older woman!.
That is, if we assume his age at death was given correctly. Ages on census returns and death/burial records were often inaccurate in the 19th century. Imagine a grieving son or daughter being asked: "How old was your father?" - how many would know the right answer! For the labouring classes (with varying levels of literacy and numeracy) there was no advantage to being seen as old. John might have been 77 - we just don't know yet.
Philip
ps - I discounted Rebecca the victualler's daughter (but I can't recall why - I will have to rummage through my notes) and a Rebecca baptised 1785 in Bishop's Waltham Hampshire who seems to have died young.
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Sitting here re reading all the posts and realised I am talking to my very own cousin......laugh my head off ...JF??...its JB here ( the clue is right there in my user name) :) When you mentioned wedding anniversary, I thought...oooh someone else mentioned that recently.....then I received your email just now, and REALLY thought it was you:)!!
Too funny.
So I'll take the opportunity to suggest ANYONE who has a DNA test, really should load it up to GEDMATCH ( Genesis)...it will give you matches from other DNA testing companies, and a whole lot more, it is free ( or a small fee for advanced stuff) and has some fun stuff too.
https://www.gedmatch.com/login1.php
When we’ve stopped laughing I will email you.
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;D...same :)
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Re Susannah...no g'tee that death in 1789 is her, or indeed the marriage is the right one...they just LOOK so promising. If both are ours, then Susannah was 7 or 8 years older than John and John was VERY young to be marrying this older woman!.
That is, if we assume his age at death was given correctly. Ages on census returns and death/burial records were often inaccurate in the 19th century. Imagine a grieving son or daughter being asked: "How old was your father?" - how many would know the right answer! For the labouring classes (with varying levels of literacy and numeracy) there was no advantage to being seen as old. John might have been 77 - we just don't know yet.
Philip
ps - I discounted Rebecca the victualler's daughter (but I can't recall why - I will have to rummage through my notes) and a Rebecca baptised 1785 in Bishop's Waltham Hampshire who seems to have died young.
There are also John/Mary and a John/Elizabeth having children at the same time in same or adjacent parishes. So not yet cut and dried it is John/Susannah.
The problem is we have several snippets of info ....which ones are correct is the question.
She said her father was John; she signed her name Rebecca yet she was obviously known as Rebecca Judith. We instinctively assume she gave her fathers GIVEN name. But what if John was his family name? We get into the realm of best guessing too easily. :'(
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Ok Ancestry experts explain this entry ....
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=1351&h=755653650&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=1351
I am guessing it’s a spurious error outputting datafields from the 1829 baptismal confirmation of Thomas Mark Larcher.....as it’s the only place where the dreaded Martly/Hartly name is mentioned alongside Rebecca Larcher.
I’ve sent a challenge to Ancestry to supply the date and place for that record. ::)
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Hi Cuz ;D
That link doesn't help...maybe post the transcript version so we can look it up.
Is it the nonconformist baptism record?
I am curious about Ann ?BENTOTE?
BTW..you did good figuring out the M / H conundrum. I'm definitely with the H
I just spotted another typo spelling of LARCHER so may give that a go to see what might pop up on a fuzzy search.
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OK, this time I read the WHOLE document, lol...the 1829 ref is the date his baptism was FILED & REGISTERED as per dissenter custom. Looks the Dissenting Minister dragged his heels somewhat!
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A number of years have passed so previously interested parties may no longer be listening in.
Summarising the points I have come to believe as Most likely…..
John Hartley married Susannah Corke in Southwark in 1760. This is a mere 3-4 miles walk from Wandsworth where the nucleus of Huguenot weavers lived at that time. Over the coming years the Huguenots moved across the river and to the east end….so did John& Susanna.
In fact they lived at the same addresses /locations at various times as the Larcher families.
It’s therefore my contention that Rebecca Judith was a child of John (a weaver) & Susanna and her close association with the Larchers resulted in her marrying Andrew c 1801.
At Rebecca’s death she was called Ann Rebecca. This could have been a confused scribe or Andrew or maybe she was Ann Rebecca? Having their first child named after the mother could have led to confusion as the family grew. Maybe Ann Rebecca snr preferred her second name or with increased religious non conformist fervour preferred to be known by her biblical name …to also avoid confusion with her daughter…so she dropped the Ann? We will never know.
I have no idea why the name Judith came and went throughout her child bearing years or where it originated. Again it may have been a biblically inspired addition? Suffice to say it has all the hallmarks of a chosen rather than a given name.
Ann Rebecca snr recorded age at death could be wrong or quite simply living as they did around the Larchers maybe the resp. families condoned a younger than normal marriage?
As has been noted Rebecca could write. So could this John Hartley (witness at some children’s marriages) Without being cruel, it seems like John Hartley was from a more educated background. Which may put some credence to a family connection with the other more prosperous? Hartleys around in London at that time….William (Vintner) & Rebecca his wife and John (Mercer) with his daughter Rebecca.
It wouldnt be too far fetched to think that Rebecca Judith was homage to an aunt or a grandparent??
One final point on possible origins of John Hartley. The recent Gallows Pole series on tv marks the plight of Yorkshire weavers and their migration to find work and survive as the Industrial Revolution squeezed them out of their manual jobs in Yorkshire. Was John Hartley (a surname also used in the series and common in West Yorkshire) one of the migrants…going to London and to the proximity of the Huguenot community?
Interesting there is a migratory example in Johns family. Flora (his daughter) married lace maker Thomas Peet (a native of Nottinghamshire) in London. The married duo then returned to Nottingham to continue ‘mechanised’ lace making. I also believe they were involved in the transfer of expertise to Calais where a huge community of Nottingham/Derby lace makers went and greatly influenced the mechanisation of French lace making.
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One final final point I missed….
The penultimate child of John & Susanna was Ruth in 1780.
I can find no evidence that Ruth married or died either as a child or in later life. Ruth doesn’t seem to exist after her birth. Although this lost tracking is far too common at this time, is it too fanciful to consider that Ruth was wrongly named and she was actually Rebecca? Now that is perhaps a step too far.
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A number of years have passed so previously interested parties may no longer be listening in.
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I'm still here and most definitely still interested. Many thanks for reviving this thread.
I haven't looked at the Hartley's jam (sorry! ;D ;D) for a few years, so it's time I gave it fresh thought. I have always been pretty certain that Martley is a misreading and am convinced by Hartley. Placing Hartleys in the same location as Larchers is very significant. I am intrigued by the idea of Ruth vanishing and Rebecca appearing but I wouldn't be brave enough to put money on it. At the moment my thinking is: "there is strong circumstantial evidence to suggest that Rebecca is the daughter of the John Hartley who married Susan Corke".