RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Kirkcudbrightshire => Topic started by: Kwicknit on Tuesday 27 May 14 05:22 BST (UK)
-
Hello out there,hope I have right thread first time for me,i am looking for Ancestors of James Anderson my GGGrandfather born in Scotland married Margaret McKeand not sure when i cant find certificate for them their daughter Jessie born 1812,son William born 1814 and daughter Jane born 1816 all the children were born in Balmaghie,when the children were born they list my GGGrandfather as being a tenant farmer at Brackenbreck Hall wherever that is, Census records in 1841 I pick up my GGrandfather living in York UK in 1841 and listed as a Draper on the Pavement until his death in 1873,he married Charlotte Caroline (nee Thompson)in 1863,Jessie died in 1896 she married in 1837 to Copeland Anderson same as her Maiden name in the UK, I am having problems finding a lot about Jane I know she married a William McQueen in Scotland in 1842,i live in NZ and would dearly love to know whether I have some Scottish ancestors out there.
-
Welcome to Rootschat Kwicknit. :)
Can I just confirm a couple of things please?
Your direct line is through William b 1814? You say he married Charlotte in 1863? He would have been about 49 years old in 1863 - is this correct? Do you have their marriage certificate? Do you know if he had been married before?
You also say that James was a tenant farmer - presumably this is his occupation on the children's birth entries? Then you say you found him in the 1841 census in York and he is a Draper. It is quite a leap from farmer to draper - how sure are you that you have the correct James Anderson? Does he have family with him? Does it say he was born in Scotland? (if indeed that is where he was born).
I may have got some of this wrong - please put me straight if I have. :)
Lastly, have you been using Scotland's People for your research?
-
I found Balmaghie Church but no sign of Brackenbreck Hall in the vicinity. http://www.rootschat.com/links/0zgf/
It was probably a farmstead - they are often named on these OS maps but I can't find it (yet). :)
-
For those trying to help;
1841 Census
Alton, Hampshire
HO107/381/6/Alton
Jessie ANDERSON, 25, no occp, born Scotland
Alexander, 3
Margaret, 1 and a half
Jean, 15
All others born in County
1861 Census Alexander and Margaret are with their Uncle in Yorkshire.
William Anderson born c 1814 Scotland.
He is unm, and a Woollen and Linen Draper
RG9/3551/84/20
1851 Alexander is with William also in Yorks
Its a strange entry as he has a Sister transcribed a Silsie with him who is Widowed.
It may be Jessie and she should be Sister in Law.
HO107/2355/171/6
Now in 1871 William is married to a C C Anderson, born c 1824 Scotland.
A Mary G Thomson, Neice is with them.
RG10/4283/10/12
FreeBMD has a William ANDERSON Marriage Reg, Dec 1863, St Geo Hanover Sqr, 1a 400
Charlotte Caroline THOMPSON on same page
-
Hi and Welcome :)
Some of my ancestors moved from the same area in the the 1830s. At that time the landowners were forcing 'improving leases' on their tenant farmers, and many of the tenants refused to take them on so moved. This might have happened to your ancestors. However, |I'm not totally convince that you have the same family - there's something odd about the census series that Trish has listed - are they all the same family? Anderson is a fairly common surname - as are William, Jane, Jean, Janet, Jessie. Which is the latest census in which you can positively identify them as your ancestors?
Also, I think the farm was called Lochenbreck Well and not Brackenbreck Hall - see attached from the baptism entries.
I'll have a search around my local records and report back if I find anything.
Gadget
-
Hi Ruskie
I've found Lochenbreck Trust to the East of Bellymack and to the West of Drumlane on the 6 ins OS series.. It runs across Bellymack Moss. I assume that Lochenbreck Well was in that area.*
Gadget
* See Reply #22
-
Just to confirm the marriage of Jessie to Copeland Anderson:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/2DHS-VTQ
The GRO ref is given in the link and it would be worth getting the certificate to be sure of her father's name.
Gadget
-
Hi Gadget,
I have followed them through and it seems to add up to me.
1841 is Jessie, the Sister who married Copeland Anderson.
Her Children are with William her Brother (1814) after that and William married 1863.
Trouble is there is a Christening for a William Anderson 1814 on F/S.Org with Parents named but someone else has his Father as William and a very exact DOB for him, 31st July 1814.
I wonder if they have the M/C to CC Thompson?
Do you have the M/C Kwicknit?
-
Agree Trish - I've just following them through. I think I was confused by the OPs description.
Not sure why Jessie's down as Silsie - or whatever - on the 1851. It's definitely an S not a J. I wonder where Margaret is on the 1851 - have you found her?*
Gadget
Added -* found living with grandparents in castle Douglas - not sure why's she's described as 'niece' - see my later post - Reply #18
-
Havent found Margaret in 1851 yet, should be making Dinner!
-
1881 Jessie Anderson is born c 1812 Castle Douglas, Scotland, living with Daug Margaret (now Widowed also) in Clifton, Yorks)
Castle Douglas is not in Kirkcudbrightshire.
EDIT 1891 in Balmaghie, Scotland
Researching more there is a Castle Douglas in Kirk...;
http://www.kirkcudbright.co/balmaghie.asp
-
Castle Douglas is not in Kirkcudbrightshire.
Castle Douglas is in Kirkcubrightshire. My ancestors lived there for a while! Kelton is the parish that it is in. It's just to the south of Balmaghie.
I was about to post this.
I am having problems finding a lot about Jane I know she married a William McQueen in Scotland in 1842,
There's a banns/marriage entry for a Jane Anderson marrying a James McQueen, both of Castle Douglas, 6 Dec 1842, Kelton (parish which contains Castle Douglas).
Gadget
-
Just corrected myself :-[
-
Just corrected myself :-[
Tut. Tut. Trish ;D ;D ;D
-
1851
Queen Street, Castle Douglas
James McQueen, 36, joiner, b. Balmaghie
Jane, 32
William, 8
James. 6
John, 4
Margaret, 3
Alexander, 1
All but James, snr, b. Castle Douglas
Gadget
-
I'll see if my MIs for Balmaghie and Kelton are still to be packed. If so will check up for James Anderson and Margaret McKeand.
Gadget
-
:D
Got an MI for them - Kelton:
By William Anderson in memory of James Anderson of Castle Douglas (d 7. 2. 1855*) 81 (wife Margt McKeand d. Castle Douglas 10.3. 1853, 75. Daughter Elisa, 25.12.1825, 16. Son in law, Copeland Anderson, d. Castle Douglas 14.9. 1845, 36, children James and three Elizabeths, d. inf)
A bit of a messy MI but I think all after the parenthesis before Margaret refers to relatives of James Anderson.
Gadget
* a good year for a BMD in Scotland :)
-
:)
From James Anderson's death cert of 1855:
James Anderson, bookbinder, 81.
Born, Hermitage, Urr.
Lived - 36 years in Castle Douglas
Parents - William Anderson, farmer and Elisabeth m.s. McLellan
Wife - Margaret McKeand (deceased)
Children - Elisabeth, 41; Jessie, 39; William, 37; Jane, 35
Date of Death - 7 Feb 1855, Castle Douglas
Added - informant was Jessie Anderson, daughter.
Gadget
-
1851 Census
Cotton Street, Castle Douglas
James Anderson, 76, bookbinder, b. Dumfriesshire
Margaret, 76, b. Anwoth. KKD
*Margaret, niece, 11, b. England
Gadget
* Obviously where Margaret was in 1851 - strange as she's down as niece not granddaughter!
-
For ref - I always find that these parish maps are really helpful as a starting point if you're not familiar with the area:
http://www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-wigtown.htm
http://www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-map-dumfries.htm
Interesting that James says b. Dumfries and the death cert has him b. Urr - worth checking in both counties.
Gadget
-
I'm wondering if Copeland Anderson was in the Navy - a possible baptism for a daughter Elisabeth in Liverpool in 1843
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NN4D-PP5
Gadget
-
jumping back to Lochenbreck
Could this be the farmhouse:
http://lochenbreck.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/home-page/layer_3.jpg
http://lochenbreck.co.uk/
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2023723
Lots more on Google (geograph.org)
It's just to the North of Laurieston
Gadget
-
On a modern OS map with Lochenbreck Well marked:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0zgk/
Gadget
-
I see Trish and Gadget have been going great guns with this.
Also, I think the farm was called Lochenbreck Well and not Brackenbreck Hall - see attached from the baptism entries.
Gadget
Gadget, thank you for clarifying this. I spent quite a time searching for a Brackenbreck Hall that doesn't (seem to) exist in the area.
The entry is extremely clearly written as Lochenbreck Well, and I have now located it on the map.
Quite a hike to Balmhagie where I probably wrongly assumed the children were christened. Oh well, never mind - you can't win them all. :)
-
They don't seem to have stayed on the farm very long, Ruskie. On James's death cert in 1855, it says that he'd lived in Castle Douglas for 36 years - so they must have moved by 1819. He became or was a bookbinder From reading my 3xgrt grandfather's letters, tenant farming in the Loch Ken/River Dee area didn't really pay around then.
Gadget
-
I'm wondering how/why Jessie married and had children in Alton, Hants. It's inland so not naval . Can't find anything about Copland Anderson apart from his death on the MI.
Alton is associated with Sweet Fanny Adams!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alton,_Hampshire
-
I'm wondering if Copeland Anderson was in the Navy - a possible baptism for a daughter Elisabeth in Liverpool in 1843
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NN4D-PP5
Gadget
Just found this baptism. Born 10th March, bpt 6 August 1843. Cop(e)land Anderson was down as a police constable.
Gadget
Added - Also another Elizabeth, baptised 9 Nov 1845. This seems to be after he died (from the MI). Maybe the MI was a year or so out ::)
-
They don't seem to have stayed on the farm very long, Ruskie. On James's death cert in 1855, it says that he'd lived in Castle Douglas for 36 years - so they must have moved by 1819. He became or was a bookbinder From reading my 3xgrt grandfather's letters, tenant farming in the Loch Ken/River Dee area didn't really pay around then.
Gadget
Beautiful country but I can imagine very difficult to eke a living ...
-
They don't seem to have stayed on the farm very long, Ruskie. On James's death cert in 1855, it says that he'd lived in Castle Douglas for 36 years - so they must have moved by 1819. He became or was a bookbinder From reading my 3xgrt grandfather's letters, tenant farming in the Loch Ken/River Dee area didn't really pay around then.
Gadget
Beautiful country but I can imagine very difficult to eke a living ...
Welcome to Rootschat Kwicknit. :)
Can I just confirm a couple of things please?
Your direct line is through William b 1814? You say he married Charlotte in 1863? He would have been about 49 years old in 1863 - is this correct? Do you have their marriage certificate? Do you know if he had been married before?
You also say that James was a tenant farmer - presumably this is his occupation on the children's birth entries? Then you say you found him in the 1841 census in York and he is a Draper. It is quite a leap from farmer to draper - how sure are you that you have the correct James Anderson? Does he have family with him? Does it say he was born in Scotland? (if indeed that is where he was born).
I may have got some of this wrong - please put me straight if I have. :)
Lastly, have you been using Scotland's People for your research?
-
Hi and Welcome :)
Some of my ancestors moved from the same area in the the 1830s. At that time the landowners were forcing 'improving leases' on their tenant farmers, and many of the tenants refused to take them on so moved. This might have happened to your ancestors. However, |I'm not totally convince that you have the same family - there's something odd about the census series that Trish has listed - are they all the same family? Anderson is a fairly common surname - as are William, Jane, Jean, Janet, Jessie. Which is the latest census in which you can positively identify them as your ancestors?
Also, I think the farm was called Lochenbreck Well and not Brackenbreck Hall - see attached from the baptism entries.
I'll have a search around my local records and report back if I find anything.
Gadget
-
Hi and Welcome :)
Some of my ancestors moved from the same area in the the 1830s. At that time the landowners were forcing 'improving leases' on their tenant farmers, and many of the tenants refused to take them on so moved. This might have happened to your ancestors. However, |I'm not totally convince that you have the same family - there's something odd about the census series that Trish has listed - are they all the same family? Anderson is a fairly common surname - as are William, Jane, Jean, Janet, Jessie. Which is the latest census in which you can positively identify them as your ancestors?
Also, I think the farm was called Lochenbreck Well and not Brackenbreck Hall - see attached from the baptism entries.
I'll have a search around my local records and report back if I find anything.
Gadget
-
Hi kwicknit
I've answered most of the PM questions that you sent me, but here is a summary:
All of the info I gave is from parish records or the Monumental Inscriptions. I cannot put up the full images here because of copyright.
1. From James's death cert and the MI - James and Margaret (both born circa 1776 ish) - appear to have had 4 living children - Elisabeth , William, Jessie/Janet and Jane. They also had children who died in infancy. Don't worry too much about the ages given - they're not usually accurate.
2. The parish records in Liverpool have the 2 Elizabeths as being the daughters of Copeland and Jessie Anderson with Copeland as a police constable/police man.
3. The 2 baptism records that I looked at from Balmaghie have James as tenant of Lochenbreck Wells, which would mean he rented the property on a lease. it doesn't say that he was a tenant farmer. I don't know if Lochenbreck Wells was a farmstead or just a house. Sometimes you might find properties/land advertised for rental in the local newspapers of the time. Copies of these would be in the local archives/libraries in Dumfries and Kirkcudbright. It might be worth contacting them at:
http://www.dumgal.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2300
http://archives.dumgal.gov.uk/DServe/DServe.exe?dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Index.tcl
http://www.dumgal.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3787
Castle Douglas Library also has a local studies section. They were very helpful when I visited:
http://www.dumgal.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3776
Gadget
-
If James Anderson was born in Dumfries (census info) rather than Urr (Death cert info), there's a possible baptism in Dumfries 2nd June 1777 - son of William Anderson. Unfortunately, mother's name was not recorded for Dumfries records at that time :(
Also a marriage/banns on 19 August 1773 in Dumfries - William Anderson and Elizabeth McLellan :D
Gadget
-
You're in luck
From the banns entry:
William Anderson, son to the deceased Alexander Anderson in this place (meaning Dumfries) and Elizabeth McLellan, daughter to the deceased Samuel McLellan in the parish of Urr
So that's where the Urr comes from!
Gadget
-
If we assume that Jessie mixed up her father's place of birth with his mother's residence , then Hermitage, Urr is here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0zi7/
Gadget
-
Just for ref, here's a small photo of the main street in Castle Douglas - I have lots but this is the only one that's handy.
-
Just found a piece from the Statistical Accounts on Lochenbreck Well:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0zi9/
It seems that there was a small house , built by Walter Sloane (the owner), at the Well - no farm mentioned.
A full listing of all the Statistical Accounts for the Scottish Parishes (1st and 2nd Accounts), ca nbe selected here:
http://stat-acc-scot.edina.ac.uk/sas/sas.asp?action=public&passback=
Gadget
-
At the bottom of the page (previous ref)
'Feus or building leases may be had on very moderate terms'
So maybe James had a building lease. Note that this was written 15 years or so before the baptism of their first child, so things might have changed. *
Gadget
* added - I don't think that they changed very much. The 2nd Statistical Acoount (1830s-1840s) has a similar account of the springs, except that the owner is now a William Sloane.
-
A Street View of part of Cotton Street, where James and Margaret lived on the1841 and1851 censuses:
http://goo.gl/maps/0y221
It's just to the NE of King Street (in the photo that I put up)
Gadget
-
Hi Gadget,thanks for all the new information,i hope I am replying on thread not personal takes a while to get used to this,anyway it is Wednesday night 11.55pm here and it is time I went to bed,enjoy the rest of your day.
-
You've got the right button this time :)
I'm not sure if there's anything else that I can find. I'll leave you to digest it and get back with any queries.
Just thinking that my Carson/Burgess/Wilson ancestors might well have known yours - Great X 3 Aunty Mary and her husband lived in King Street, Castle Douglas in the 1820s and 30s.
Gadget
-
:D
Got an MI for them - Kelton:
By William Anderson in memory of James Anderson of Castle Douglas (d 7. 2. 1855*) 81 (wife Margt McKeand d. Castle Douglas 10.3. 1853, 75. Daughter Elisa, 25.12.1825, 16. Son in law, Copeland Anderson, d. Castle Douglas 14.9. 1845, 36, children James and three Elizabeths, d. inf)
A bit of a messy MI but I think all after the parenthesis before Margaret refers to relatives of James Anderson.
Gadget
* a good year for a BMD in Scotland :)
-
:D
Got an MI for them - Kelton:
By William Anderson in memory of James Anderson of Castle Douglas (d 7. 2. 1855*) 81 (wife Margt McKeand d. Castle Douglas 10.3. 1853, 75. Daughter Elisa, 25.12.1825, 16. Son in law, Copeland Anderson, d. Castle Douglas 14.9. 1845, 36, children James and three Elizabeths, d. inf)
A bit of a messy MI but I think all after the parenthesis before Margaret refers to relatives of James Anderson.
Gadget
* a good year for a BMD in Scotland :)
-
I'm related to the McKeands of Kirkcudbright (my GG grandmother being Agnes McKeand) and can tell you that their surname is often transcribed as McKean.
There is a birth record for Margaret McKean born 5 February 1774 in Anwoth, Kirkcudbright. Parents are Alexander McKean and Jean Cowan.
Cheers,
Rodeo
-
Hi Rodeo,thanks for that I thought the name was McKeand having their MI and James Death Cert as you probably saw on my postings James was my GGGrandfather, you don't by any chance have any more information on James do you apart from whom he married I have found his father and I am trying to go further back than that I would love to have a copy of any photos etc,i am coming over to Scotland next year and intend to go to Kirkcudbright so I can go to Kelton Grave Yard, I am also going to Kirkpatrick Durham where James father is buried and a few other places.
Thanks Kwicknit