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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: far away on Monday 02 June 14 09:47 BST (UK)
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My ggg-grandfather Walter Gordon, a weaver from Aberdeen married Catherine Lamond(t) 1827 in MacDuff. He spent his life from then as a weaver in MacDuff then suddenly I find him as a Labourer in Glasgow when he died at the Royal Infirmary Glasgow 20 April 1835,two months before the birth of his youngest child. His family were still in MacDuff. His residence at the time of his death is stated as Parkhead. Is this in Glasgow? He was buried in the lair of St Marys churchyard Glasgow in Common Ground,would anyone have any knowledge of the whereabouts of this church and whether records would exist for it please? And what does "Common Ground" mean? I imagine he must have come upon hard times as a Weaver to suddenly be labouring.Another thread to research? I live in New Zealand so am unable to visit Archives so any help is most appreciated. Thank you.
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How did you confirm it was the correct Walter Gordon?
Common ground is unmarked burial for those who couldn't afford a lair.
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Hi Sancti
I have Walters death record from the Infirmary and the Sheriffs Court inventory of the disposal of his personal effects to his wife Catherine. I am wondering if there would be any records for the Church burials as I haven't had any luck from over here (NZ). I thought local knowledge might come up with something . . .
Thank you for your interest. I thought as much about common ground but it's nice to have it confirmed.
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Far Away as Sancti has stated common ground was for those who couldn`t afford their own lair and if your relative was RC and you say he lived in the parkhead area then he may have come under St Mary`s abercromby st in the Calton district which lies between the Royal Infirmary and Parkhead and covers that area you could apply to the Catholic Archdiose at the above chapel or Glasgow itself.
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I'm not sure St Mary's existed in 1835 and haven't heard of a cemetery attached to it.
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As has been said, St Mary's, Calton is in Abercromby St in the Calton area. I went to the school in the mid 60's, but never heard of a cemetery/churchyard. If Walter lived in the Parkhead area the nearest catholic cemetery woud have been St Peter's, Dalbeth on the London Rd, about 5 minutes away. You could email Sharon at the Archdiocese, she is usually very helpful.
Sharon.Scullion@rcag.org.uk
Davie
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Sancti and aryenes your correct forget to tie in the dates it is to early for St Mary`s in the Calton but there seems to be a few other denominations who have used St Mary`s the name that is and im sorry that I confused the issue there did seem to be a few churchs that have ceased all around the east end of Glasgow and maybe writing to the main dioceses of them you maybe eventually come across the correct faith and then burial ground if it still here.
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just had a glance at my old 1857 Glasgow map. There is a burial ground marked near the Convent just above St Mary's, near Henrietta St off Gallowgate. So that is probably the one?
Davie
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Hi,
I was just wondering if there are 2 Walter Gordons here?
You say you have his Infirmary records and from these I assume you have the information about the burial in common ground (which is usually for people who could not afford to buy a lair)? Or do you have that from other documents?
You have also said that you have obtained an Inventory of his Estate from a Sheriff Court. It would be very rare, I would have thought, for someone with very little money to have to get Confirmation of an Estate in 1835? Also, did he die intestate or is there also a Will?
Carolineasb
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I agree with Carolineasb,
If there was an "estate" I can't imagine a burial in common ground. I think you may have another man of the same name.
Fact - St Mary's Catholic Church in Abercromby Street was completed and opened in 1842, making it the second oldest Catholic church in the Archdiocese of Glasgow. If that church didn't open until 1842 surely there could not have been a "churchyard" in Abercromby Street before that date?
According to an old booklet published by the Glasgow & West of Scotland FHS, St Mary's Catholic burial ground in Abercromby St was opened in 1839, that is stretching it a bit I think. However, if it is the correct date, it is still too late for Walter.
Fact - St Peter's (Dalbeth) Catholic cemetery didn't open until around 1851, so that rules Dalbeth out.
Fact - There was another burial ground in Abercromby Street, the Calton burial ground, first burial there was about 1786 but it wasn't specifically for Catholics.
St Mary's Abercromby St would have been for Catholics only, do you know what his religion was?
Parkhead would have been well outside the city in the 1830s. Again, Janefield (Eastern Necropolis) in Parkhead, didn't open until 1847.
I just can't imagine someone leaving his family in Macduff and going all the way down to the other end of the country to work as a labourer in the 1830s. Why? Aberdeen was much closer, as was Dundee and Perth. Even Edinburgh would have been easier to get to by ship. Glasgow in those days wasn't the bustling metropolis that it was at the latter end of the 19th century.
Does the information from the infirmary mention that he was from Macduff? It's the only way to prove that you are on the right track.
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I have just had a look at Wills and Testaments on Scotlands People
The Inventory of Walter Gordon, Weaver at Macduff is there.
Dated 1 Jan 1838. Banff Sherrif Court. Ref : SC2/40/7
I am presuming that this is where Far Away obtained his info.
Does this say he died in Glasgow?
Edit:
Far Away states Walter died in 1835 yet the Inventory is dated 1838.
Did anyone in Glasgow know who he was? Is that perhaps the reason that he was buried in common ground?
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Thanks Annp, The inventory states Walters date of death - 20 April 1835. It doesn't say where he died and the Glasgow death is the only one I can find in all the records. Other family were in Glasgow also. One of his sons and his wife also died there after spending all their life in Banff. I will obviously have to do some more 'digging' to verify the Glasgow Walter is mine, or not? So much to think about.
Thank you all.
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It's probable that you are on the right track after all.
Walter's Invetory is dated 1 Jan 1838 yet it states he died almost 3years earlier... 20 Apr 1835.
The death and burial index for Walter who died in Glasgow is dated 9 May 1835 a difference of just 19 days
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Now I'm wondering if he is the same person!
Perhaps, he just disappeared from home in MacDuff and went to Glasgow and had no family/friends near to pay for a lair at the time of his burial. The fact that Confirmation was not expede until 3 years after his death does happen but is pretty rare for that amount of time later and so I'm wondering if his wife/family found out about his death a long time after the event? Nowadays, the usual reason for a delay in Confirmation is if people die intestate and are estranged from family or property (sometimes policies or accounts not necessarily heritable property) turns up at a later date that wasn't known about by the Executor at the time of death and cannot be released for some reason without Confirmation.
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Is it possible that he was a labourer on the railway or even the canals and maybe was transient maybe explaining his movement from the highlands chasing a pay for whatever reason and also he died with not having anyone knowing to much about his relatives hence his pauper burial but all the while he had roots that came to light later and still has by faraway post.Sorry to warble on but it fascinates me that people like walter and my relatives and others moved around without ease when today some people cannot leave their street without a nose bleed.
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It might be worth checking to see if his wife made a poor relief claim during the years between 1835 and 1838.
If he was missing, she may have needed financial help.
Someone on RC may be able to tell you where the Banffshire records are held and if they cover this period.
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There wouldn't be a "Poor Relief Claim" before 1845. There may be a record of payment in the Old Parochial Records from the parish in which she lived but it would only be an entry of how much she was paid - or what she was paid with. (Sometime it was just a load of firewood or a sack of meal).
But the poor law system didn't begin in Scotland until 1845.
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Thanks Lodger,
I realised after I posted that the time period was probably too early for PR.
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Someone on RC may be able to tell you where the Banffshire records are held and if they cover this period.
As Lodger says, the formal poor relief system didn't start until 1845, so will not be any use here. (The extant poor relief records for Banffshire are in the Aberdeen Archives).
You might want to take a look at the Banff Kirk Session records. The Kirk Sessions did occasional include some information about why a particular person might need to claim on the parish. But I wouldn't get too excited as there may be nothing to find. The KS records are in the National Archives Records of Scotland and require a visit from someone to consult them. They can also be consulted in Glasgow and Inverness and in Aberdeen Archives, and possibly in some other archives that I don't yet know about, if that is any handier for you, or someone taking a look on your behalf.
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Thank you all, The later Census records I have for Walters wife Catherine state she was a 'Merchant' and 'Formerly Innkeeper' so perhaps she was self supporting. Darn, I had the most fantastic trip to the UK/Scotland in 2007. Wish I knew this information then, however I did get to see the home of my gg-grandfather in Banff which was very special. Also found the family headstone of another of his sons in Banff cemetary. It is so much easier to be there than over here in NZ! Thank heavens for the internet at least :) Now, where to look next ???