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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: AlanR83 on Tuesday 03 June 14 19:55 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I have found on the Skibbereen Heritage Loan Database that one of my ancestors Tim Hallihane from Castlehaven was named as a Surety for a 2 pound loan on 01 December 1846.
He is listed on the follow up on 15 December 1846 as a poor labourer still living off the land.
I also know that he was still alive in Castlehaven in 1866 as he is listed as a witness on the marriage cert of his daughter (my Great Great Grandmother).
I have done some research into his family and I have found that at least 2 of his brothers from Castlehaven were also still alive in the 1860's.
My question is does anyone have any ideas how he, his daughter and his brothers could have survived the famine years without emigrating if he was listed as a poor labourer living on the land in 1846 at the start of the famine, I am curious as to the possible ways you may think that he and his brothers may have been able to survive the 4 worst years of the famine and remain in Castlehaven? I have checked a lot of information on the famine in West Cork but its all about how people died, there is not really anything on how some people did manage to survive it for over 4 years - any thoughts on this?
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Working at the fishing?
Skoosh.
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He was a poor farm labourer, not a fisherman
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Hi,
I found this
Charity and Remittances
Many lives were saved by the charitable efforts of others. The Society of Friends distributed over 200,000 worth of food and clothing. Irish charities were responsible for over 300,000 of relief. The British associations handled over 400,000 but were used by government to prop up bankrupt unions, which should have been their responsibility. A considerable proportion of this money had been donated be Irish people in the colonial services and the military. Remittances from relatives and friends living abroad must run into millions and saved many from starvation by providing money for food or emigration. The amount of food shared by neighbours is incalculable and must run into millions. In a lot of cases the charitable relief was only temporary and just postponed the moment of death.
http://www.wolfetonesofficialsite.com/famine.htm
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Castlehaven is beside the coast, so he may have foraged for winkles, limpets .. shellfish attached to rocks on the shore.
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Who was his landlord?
Many of them were very good. http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/the-widows-mite-private-relief-during-the-great-famine/
Quakers did a lot. http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/quakers-the-famine/
Famine Relief Works http://www.nationalarchives.ie/topics/famine/relief.html
And as conahy calling said, foraging, there was a man in Kildare so convinced there would be no birds left in the country he did a Norah's Ark like thing with a large barn and kept pairs of birds in it.
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His Landlord in the Griffith's valuation in 1853 was a Cornelius Buckley, he was renting a house from him for 2 shillings at Inane, Castlehaven.
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His Landlord in the Griffith's valuation in 1853 was a Cornelius Buckley, he was renting a house from him for 2 shillings at Inane, Castlehaven.
Buckley was a middleman landlord; Col. French was head landlord.
I hope this doesn't sound smart but a lot more people survived the Famine than died during it. Apart from whatever resources people had themselves (was someone paying him a wage?) and other possible income mentioned already, there were relief works and soup kitchens. Also, even if he is only described as a labourer that doesn't preclude the possibility he also worked as a fisherman.
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Sonas, I think there was a programme of road improvements in the Skibbereen area.
Skoosh.
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Not sure this will answer your question or even if it will play for you.
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/blighted-nation/programmes/2013/0304/371964-episode-1/
Or this http://static.rasset.ie/documents/radio1/famine-experience-in-skibbereen.pdf
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I think Giblet's reasons may be the most accurate - I had not considered that some who emigrated during the Famine may have sent money home (a John Hallihane did emigrate to England, its recorded in one of the Loan follow up's). Also there were an awful lot of Hallihane's in Castlehaven and Toe Head, so it may have been safety in numbers and relatives gave food, work and money when they could. I dont think the Road works would have saved them as I have read that they paid a pittance and many actually died while working the roads, also the soup kitchen's apparently were not enough, the demand was huge and the soup itself was deficient in a lot of the calories and nutrients required to keep a body healthy. I think it must have been relatives and money sent back that kept them surviving as I have read there was always food in the Skibbereen marketplace people just did not have the money to purchase it. I have since found a good link about all the different aspects abount the famine and also an explanation why Fish was not always an option: http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/famine/hunger.htm
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Sonas, I think there was a programme of road improvements in the Skibbereen area.
Skoosh.
Road improvements were a common form of relief works all over the country.
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I think Giblet's reasons may be the most accurate - I had not considered that some who emigrated during the Famine may have sent money home (a John Hallihane did emigrate to England, its recorded in one of the Loan follow up's). Also there were an awful lot of Hallihane's in Castlehaven and Toe Head, so it may have been safety in numbers and relatives gave food, work and money when they could. I dont think the Road works would have saved them as I have read that they paid a pittance and many actually died while working the roads, also the soup kitchen's apparently were not enough, the demand was huge and the soup itself was deficient in a lot of the calories and nutrients required to keep a body healthy. I think it must have been relatives and money sent back that kept them surviving as I have read there was always food in the Skibbereen marketplace people just did not have the money to purchase it. I have since found a good link about all the different aspects abount the famine and also an explanation why Fish was not always an option: http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/famine/hunger.htm
I think it's fair to say that a combination of things saved people from death during the Famine and all posts in the thread might be read together to gain an overview of the various factors. Information on websites, rather than quality work by quality historians, is only going to give a generalised view of the Famine.
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3 brothers and a daughter found. Of course there could be more of the family survived but I wonder if that's an average number for that area out of a family of possibly ten, eleven for the brothers
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Maybe a person's health before the famine comes into play with loss of life also.
If they werent of good health to start with they probably had little chance of survival when the famine started.
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My relations were also from Castlehaven and it always surprised me to find out that they all seemed to survive the famine. Traditional life down there seemed to centre around the landed gentry in Castletownshend and the peasants out in the countryside - might the gentry have been responsible for a better than expected survival rate (my family were with the peasants btw).
On the other hand, my great great grandmother from the Ballydehob area had an unusual surname - "Child". According to church records there were a number of boys born with this surname in the 1820s and 1830s. However there was nobody with that name in the 1901 census in County. Cork - I assumed that was death or emigration due to the famine
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life down there seemed to centre around the landed gentry in Castletownshend and the peasants out in the countryside - might the gentry have been responsible for a better than expected survival rate.
That was the case in the entire country.
The landlords varied as people always do, some helped a bit, some saw it as an opportunity to clear their land of tenents, many saw it as not their problem. They continued to expect the rent to be paid, and continued to export crops while their tenents went hungry. Generally their reputation (which wasn't good to start with) was destroyed during the famine and added to the reasons for the Land War at the end of the century.
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My family are from Killaderry Castlehaven.
They survived.
I understand from word of mouth passed down through the generations that there were many sub tenants on their farms.They did not own the land then so I don't know if or to whom they may have paid rent.
My Grandfather( born in 1864) always cared for others as when ever a pig was killed he would insist that the best cuts were given to those in the surrounding farms.My Mother told me it was a habit left from the famine years .Her grandmother born around1830s lived with them until the 1920s/30s.She made the Southern Star as being so old when she died.Of course she had survived.
I know they did eat sea weed from the strand but understood that was just as a thickener for a milk pudding.
The famine should never have happened because the English should have organised a proper system of care which they didn't as they did not want the Irish to be dependant on food hand outs ! :'(
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Lots of edible seaweed here, Irish seaweed is going to Japan now because they won't eat their own after the nuclear problem recently.
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John McCarthy my ancestor from Reen was also described as a labourer in Griffiths. His son, Tim, who married a Hallihane was a labourer, but also a fisherman as many in that area were. Fishing was seasonal and needed other forms of support.He was also in the Royal Navy and merchant navy. I suppose what I am saying is that the word "labourer" does not necessarily tell the whole story of what people did during the Famine.
Spalpeen
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I suppose what I am saying is that the word "labourer" does not necessarily tell the whole story of what people did during the Famine.
Spalpeen
Quite. It is, after all, just what they said in answer to a question one day every ten years. It doesn't describe a lifestyle.
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My people are also from this area. My GG Grandfather, John Driscoll, worked at the Rineen Mill. The mill employed a number of people - although I understand they did not pay 'wages' as such, but subsidized with food. There were a number of houses on the land that the workers and families lived in. Although listed as a 'laborer' I know that he too spent some time working in the army, and that this was a common thing for local lads. Members of the family also did time with the coastguard.
Unfortunately for John and wife Kate (O'Neill) times were so tough and with a growing family they could not manage on what they had, and they emigrated to London. Their health status was very low, and most of the children perished with TB, or in childbirth, or with other disease. So far I have found that 9 out of 11 children died before their parents. A very sad indictment for the conditions they must have faced.
One brother, Jeremiah, remained but in a census I see that 5 out of his 7 children had not survived.
I have heard that the Castlehaven landlords were keen to see people leave the land, and strong 'advice' was given to the young men of the area to emigrate. This was around 1864.
Tough times.
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I also have heard through family that the men were advised to leave .It was suggested they join the British army or navy.One of my distant relatives turns up in Portsmouth dockyard and you can track his service record.
From all I have read over the years the most straight forward situation appears to be that the potato crop failed repeatedly and the British continued to send food to the mainland as they thought the Irish peasant would become dependant on handouts…hence the road schemes where men worked for a few pennies a day. The articles in The Times newspaper are worth a read. The recipe for soup for the soup kitchen was useless but worth reading about….mainly water and salt !
I know that my ancestors ate seaweed, various shellfish and pork ( I am guessing they were a little better off) as my mother lived with her grandmother who made it to 106 ! She remembered the famine. :'(
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Hello,
I have a follow up question - I have found a civil marriage cert for my Great x Grandparents in Castlehaven for 1865 - Mary Halihane and Cornelius Sweeney. On the Marriage cert Mary states her father as Tim Halihane which has allowed me to trace that family pretty well but Cornelius Sweeney does not state his father's name on the cert - I have not seen this before, normally even if deceased the groom will list his father's name and occupation on the cert. Could this mean he abandoned the family or some other reason? Cornelius address on the cert is North Street, Skibbereen and in the Griffith's valuation 1853 there is a Mrs Mary Sweeney also renting on North Street - I think this may be his mother, any ideas why he would not list his father's name on the cert?
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Soup kitchen
http://www.skibbereen.ie/the-great-famine
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I think I may have found an answer to my original question - I found that Timothy Hallihane's wife was Mary Collins, and one of the sponsors at their child Jeremiah Hallihane's baptism in Castlehaven in 1853 was a Michael Collins. I checked the Griffith's Valuation list and I found that Michael Collins is listed for Aghills, Castlehaven as renting house, office and land of 19 acres. I also saw he is jointly renting land with a John Collins senior of 26 acres and a John Collins junior of 12 acres - so if this is the family that Timothy Hallihane married into - it would explain how he had enough resources to survive the famine years, it seems likely that his wife's family helped him out. The curious thing I found about the Collins family is that in the 1825 Tithe Applotment John Collins is listed for Aghills as renting only an acre and there are two Jerry Collins listed renting 1/2 acre and 3/4 acre between them, it seems a long way for the Collins family of Aghills to advance in under 30 years?
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They are not the same measurement.
The Applotment books are Irish or Plantation acres which is 1.62 times larger than the statute acres used in GV.
I was trying to read those Aghills entries but I can't figure out what the first column says but I'm not convinced it's the total of land each has.
It's a bit clearer here but I still can't read it.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-12230-24359-60?cc=1804886&wc=M6LC-YZ9:147767101,147925401
Near the end it's not even filled in
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-12230-24644-14?cc=1804886&wc=M6LC-YZ9:147767101,147925401
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Tithes were due on tillage land. So the tenant farmer may have grown a plot of potatoes.
Tithes were not due on pastureland.
It was a very unfair form of taxation.No wonder there was a Tithe War
Shopkeepers and publicans did not have to pay tithes