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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: jimmain on Friday 06 June 14 21:35 BST (UK)
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I am researching my Florence ancestors in Aberdeenshire. I am now researching James Florence, born 1781, Auchterless to James Florence/ Ann Cruikshank. James apparently married twice, according to a credible Florence researcher: first to Isabella Moir, about 1799. They had the following children in Auchterless: James 1800 (Mary Falconer); John 1801 (Marjory Bannerman). James next married Margaret Wright, 1809, Auchterless. They had the following children in Auchterless: Mary 1809; Leslie 1810; Isabel 1813-1902 (William Morrison 1840); Alexander 1814-1884 (Isabella Dougall 1852/ Amelia MacArthur 1874); John 1816-1880 (Isobel Cran 1841). John Florence/ Isobel Cran are my ancestors. I’ve looked at Scotlands People records, but have not been able to confirm his first marriage to Isabella Moir. I would appreciate hearing from anyone who might be able to clarify this situation for me.
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Hi Jim
Mary Florence b 1809 was the mother of an ancestor of mine but I know little about her. She married a John Moir, where and when I know not and had 9 children. Her parents were James Florence and Margaret Wright. But that's the sum total of my knowledge. Perhaps you can help me?
Regards
Colin
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If a marriage record doesn't exist - and many didn't make it into the records that have survived - then one way of getting some clarification is the marriage or death certificates of their children. Would be worth looking at a death certificate for one of his children with Isabella Moir, or a marriage certificate for one of them if any of them married after 1855.
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A question: As u are a descendant of John Florence/Isabel Cran - I was wondering if u have done
any searching on the Florence families.... John florence/Isabel Cran's son James b. 1849 married
Jane Smith, their son James b. 1875 married Catherine Ann Williams.
My interest lies in George Florence b. 1905 son of James/Catherine Ann - he was killed by a train
at Leucher Fife in 1930...
He was presumably the father of my half sister Molly Roberton Wright b. 1924 at Oyne, she died
in 1979 at Brighton England... Her children are interested in hearing anything abt their paternal
grandfather & his family...Eronically Margaret Wright/Wight was an ancestor of mine too...
One more thing I have Isabel Florence 1813-1851 married to John Morrison u have her 1813-1902 married to William Morrison - I'll have to check that out - do u have confirmation?
An answer to Colin Cam - I have a copy of a death certificate fm Scotland People 225/00 0011
for Mary Florence (71) died Feb 27th, 1880 pauper widow of James Garden Crofter daughter of
James Florence/Margaret Wight (in this case) she died in a poorhouse in New Deer..
Was she married twice - Colin has her married to a John Moir with 9 children - I'll have to get back to the drawing board..
wld appreciate hearing fm u both
Rosina Jarvis
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Hi Rosina
To recap, a direct ancestor of mine married Barbara Moir in Udny in 1864. In their marriage record, her parents are given as John Moir, blacksmith and Mary Florence, both alive.
In the 1841 Census, the Moir family are shown living in Hatton Crook, Udny with Mary Moir nee Florence aged 30 and Barbara aged 6
In the OPRs there is only one Mary Florence who is born around 1811 and she was born to James Florence and Margaret Wright. So with no other information, I assumed that was her.
However from the Mary Florence death certificate that you have, it looks as though I am totally wrong and that the birth of my Mary Florence has not been registered.
Sorry to cause you confusion. Can you send me a copy of the death certificate?
Regards
Colin
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Hello jimmain,
Like you I cannot find a record for a James Florence / Isabella Moir marriage and, as you have seen, most births during your time frame were registered under the father's name only.
However, as the attached death record for James Florence (born 1800) shows, this marriage did take place. Although it does not necessarily connect James Florence/Isabella Moir to James Florence/Margaret Wright, it may help to shed some light.
1856 FLORENCE JAMES/MOIR M 56 PETERHEAD BURGH /ABERDEEN 232/01 0118
brigau
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Colin:
I just went into Scotland'sPeople and here is what I found for u..
Mary (Florence) Moir widow of John Moir died 31st August 1896 (88) at parish of Cluny dau of
Peter Florence/Barbara Tough. Informant: James Gordon (grandson) cause of death: disease of
heart several years... 181/00 0019..
I always go for the death - hoping it is after 1855 which gives more information - hope this is a
help to u.
I wld send u a copy of this if I knew how to do attachments; but, being 81 yrs of age I'm lucky I
know how to do searches, my son keeps showing me but it doesn't sink in..
Rosina
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Rosina
A huge thank you for finding that record. There is no need for you to send it to me; I can easily get it from Scotland's People myself.
I'm impressed that you are still active genealogically at the age of 81. Keep up the good work!
If I can reciprocate in any way, do not hesitate to ask through this topic.
Regards
Colin
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Hi Rosina, Yes, I am a decendant of John Florence/ Isobel Cran. Their son James (Jane Smith) had a daughter, Elspet, who married my grandfather, Drummond Main, 1911, Toronto Ontario Canada. I have done a lot of work on the Florences & can send you the information I have if you let me know your email address.
RE: James Florence/ Isabella Moir/ Margaret Wight: As I noted previously, one credible Florence researcher had James first married to Isabella Moir. This couple had two sons, James 1800 (Mary Falconer 1826); John 1801 (Marjory Bannerman). Both sons were blacksmiths who lived in Peterhead, a fishing village on the easternmost part of Scotland in Aberdeenshire. I am convinced that was a different James Florence. James Florence (Margaret Wight) lived in Auchterless. James’ death record states that his spouse was Margaret Wight, so I know that this information is correct. However, I was not able to find any record of that marriage, nor of the one between James Florence/ Isabella Moir. Regards, Jim Main
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There does seem to be a bit of a mix up with other people's research results. I'd a quick look at the 2 Florence blacksmiths in Peterhead. In 1851 census James' place of birth was Auchterless. James Florence's death certificate states that his father was James Florence, farmer (no mention of him being deceased.) His mother was Isabella Florence m.s. Moir, deceased. John , on the other hand, has his parents as James Florence & Ann Cruickshank. James Florence, the widower of Margaret Wright also has his parents as James Florence & Ann Cruickshank. So John, the blacksmith in Peterhead, was a brother of James, the farmer in Auchterless.
flst
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I also noticed that James Florence, farmer, was not recorded as deceased on that death record, flst. Further, as an example of how things get muddled, this 1841 census is from freecen. Note how it differs from Ancestry's transcription.
1841
Parish 192 Ellon, Aberdeenshire, Carn Leith
John Black 45 Farmer
Elspit Black 40
James Florence 78 – Ancestry transcription = Jannet Florence
Margaret Walker 5
James Willson 20 Ag Lab
John Geddes 20 Ag Lab
James Cruickshank 15 Ag Lab – Ancestry transcription = James Emrcker
John Moir 10 Ag Lab – Ancestry transcription = John Morr
Isbel Clark 20 Servant - Ancestry transcription = Isabel
All born Aberdeenshire
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One thing I've noticed is that there are sometimes several families recorded in a census records that don't necessarily live together which does confuse the situation.
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Ancestry does have a tendency to do this. the only solution is to download the original entry from scotlands people
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You're correct in saying it's always best to view the original documents & not transcriptions. Transcriptions are handy for pointing you in the right direction though. I find that Ancestry's transcriptions are often incorrect & I always submit a correction if I can. Every little helps :)
flst
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Jim: I'm a Canadian - are you??
In reply to yr last posting - u might be right I just found two James Florences born Auchterless
as follows:
17/04/1781 father James Florence Loggie Old Town Auchterless 173/00 0020 0089
19/07/1783 father James Florence Gordontown Auchterless 173/00 0020 0100
Only birth I found for Margaret WIGHT born July 21, 1776 dau of Peter Wight Tarves Aberdeen
243 00 0010 0295
No marriage found for James Florence & Margaret Wight
Children found for James Florence & Margaret WIGHT as follows:
Leslie August 15, 1810 173 00 0020 0199
Isobel May 19, 1813 173 00 0020 0207
Alexander July 01, 1814 173 00 0020 0210
John April 18, 1816 173 00 0020 0217
Death: Margaret WIGHT wife of Jas Florence Fisherford, Auchterless Sept 25, 1839
!841 census Everton Auchterless for James Florence
James Florence (55)
John `` ` (20)
Robert (15) couldn`t make out his last name
William (15) `` `` `` `` ``
Isobel Florence (25)
Isobel Cran (20)
Death: James Florence widower of Margaret WIGHT November 2, 1863 Fisherford Auchterless
173 00 0035
MARGARET WRIGHT born April 25, 1789 father John Wright Auchterless 173 00 0020 0120
No marriage found for James Florence & Margaret WRIGHT
Child of Margaret WRIGHT & James Florence (as per certificate) Mary born August 24, 1809 173 00 0020 0197
her dearh certificate February 24, 1880 New Deer gives her parents names as James Florence
& Margaret WIGHT 225 00 0011
I searched censuses & deaths for Margaret WRIGHT & James Florence to no avail..
Trust u can decipher all of the above.
Rosina
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Just a quick reminder that when searching, try looking for Florances as well as Florences :)
flst
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Hi Rosina, I live in Ontario. I'd be happy to send you my Florence info if you would like it. Just let me know. Regards, Jim
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Jim: I too live in Ontario abt one hr west of Toronto
Re: Florence I have done extensive search, just as a sideline for my niece in England who is
interested in hearing of any descendants of her paternal grandfather George Florence's siblings. I
think she just wants to hear abt him fm anyone who may have some knowledge.
Then I got sidetracked over James Florence/Margaret Wight or Wright as Margaret Wright of
Auchterless was an ancestor of mine (whether Wight/Wright are one & the same remains to be
seen)
Have u been into the website Rogers online Genealogy - maintained by Roger Moffat
http://testing.lisaandroger.com
they have data on the Florence family back to Andrew Florence abt 1580 of Fyvie whether all
is confirmed or not I don't know - I just happened across it one day...
Thx for yr offer of sharing yr Florence data - if u have any data on living descendants of James Florence/Catherine Ann Williams I wld appreciate hearing abt them...
Thx & have a great day
Rosina
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This is what I have on James Florence/ Catherine Williams:
James, born 8Jan 1875, Balhaggardy, Chapel of Garioch, was the son of James Florence/ Jane Smith.
Catherine, born 23Nov 1868, Monymusk, Aberdeen, was the daughter of John Williams/ Isabella Barrack.
Marriage record: James Florence 22, Bogend Oyne, cattleman, bachelor. Parents, James Florence, farm servant/ Jane Smith. Catherine Anne Williams 29, Bogend Oyne, housekeeper, spinster. Parents, John Williams, railway labourer (dec)/ Isabella Barrack. Witnesses, Jane Florence, William Williams.
It appears that Catherine had two children out of wedlock – George & John Handie. She then married James Florence 1897 and had at least 3 children – James, Isabella & William.
In the 1891 census: Catherine Anne Williams 23, poorhouse Inverurie Aberdeen; George Williams
12 (Catherine’s son); John Handie Williams 1m (Catherine’s son); Isabella (Barrack) Williams 49 (Catherine’s mother).
In the 1901 census: James Florence 26 labourer, Hillwell Oyne; Catherine 32; James 3; Isabella 10m; John Handie Williams 10 (stepson); Annie Johnston Williams 7; Annetta Morrison Williams 4.
Catherine Williams died 1901, Oyne.
James Florence death record: Died 11Dec 1960, Kirktown Oyne, railway surfaceman (retired), age 85. Spouse, Catherine Anne Williams (dec). Parents, James Florence, farm servant (dec)/ Jane Smith (dec). Died of myocardial degeneration with arteriosclerosis. Informant, William Florence, son, Inverurie.
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Jim:
Re: James Florence 1875-1960 & Catherine Anne Williams 1868-1949 (have copies of death
certificates)
I didn't have the 2 sons of Catherines before marriage - will check that out.
James Florence had a son John Hardie b. Feb 18, 1891 with Florence Hardie before his marriage
to Catherine.
John Hardie enlisted in 27th Battalion Canadian Infantry March 30th, 1916 at 252-1/2 Main Steet
Winnipeg, Manitoba. He died November 6, 1917 (26) buried Menin Gate (Ypres) memorial
Belgium plot panel 24-26-28-30 commemorated: Oyne War Memorial
The following are children of James Florence/Catherine Anne Williams m. Dec 4th 1897 Kintore. JAMES b. 28/02/1898 Glenbogie, Oyne - didn't find any marriage or death for him
ISABELLA b. 1900 Glenbogie, Oyne m. Alexander Wilson Kennedy Feb 17, 1932 168/02 0053
she died 1977 (76) at Peterhead 313/00 0018
WILLIAM b. 1902 Glenbogie, Oyne m. Jessie Jane Elizabeth Ingram 1943 Inverurie 204/00 0022
he died 1961 (58) Royal Infirmary Northern District Aberdeen 168/01 0507
GEORGE b. 1905 Glenbogie, Oyne killed by train Leuchars, Fife Aug 21, 1930 (25) 445/00 0008
CATHERINE JANE b. 1906 Glenbogie, Oyne m. John Joiner April 14, 1928 Oyne 230/00 0001
she died Peterhead 2003 (96) 313/00 0036 John Joiner b. 1903 died 1982 (79) 313/00 0025
ELSIE MARY B. 1909 Glenbogie, Oyne spinster d. November 29, 1997 (88) Insch 318/00 0019
HENRY WATSON b. 1911 Glenbogie, Oyne d. Jan 6, 1913 (1) 230/00 0002
I've searched for descendants of all of the above children - I only found what I believe are the
children of Catherine Jane Florence/John Joiner.. I cld not confirm as Scotlands People had NO
Images just data.
JOHN JOINER b. 1928 Peterhead 232/01 0149 m. Mary Strachan 1949 Peterhead 232/00 0014
Mary Strachan d. 1990 Peterhead 313/00 0145
ALEXANDER JAMES JOINER b. 1929 232/01 0322 d. 2012 (82) Peterhead 313/00 0035
LEONARD JOINER b. 1932 232/00 0092 m. Sheila Wardlaw Birnie 1955 Peterhead 232/00 0026
d. 2013 (80) Peterhead 313/00 0145
CATHERINE ANN JOINER b. 1936 232/00 0241 m. Alexander Stephen 1960 Peterhead 232/00 0032
as I forementioned the above 4 children have not been confirmed as there were no images to obtain copies of B.M.D. certificates...
Next I will try to do some confirming & perhaps find descendants of the Joiner family who
hopefully maybe able to enlighten me if any of the family had heard mention of George Florence
fathering a daughter (my half sister)... The irony of it all my mother never told any of my siblings
or myself that she had a daughter (our half sister) and had left her back in Scotland to be raised by our grandmother - mom passed away in 1958 and an old auntie in Scotland proceeded to tell me in the early 90's about Molly who had died in 1979 - I flew to England in 1994 to meet Molly's daughter & son...Mom had never put the father's name on the birth certificate - but, the detective in me ferreted it out by way of Molly's name - Molly Robertson Florence Wright ..Why mom kept it a secret is beyond me...
I cld prattle on, as my brother-in-law always said I write like I talk never ending, so I'll close
on that note.
Regards,
Rosina
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Jim:
Have you been in contact with a Fergus Kennedy he has the Kennedy website 120115 at MY
HERITAGE.
He has data on James Florence/Jane Smith - of all their children he only had a marriage for
Catherine (Kate) Florence to William Knowles Third and their children William J. & Catherine J.
both born 1898 (twins)
I don't know the connection to the Florence family altho I do have Isabella Florence dau of James
Florence/Catherine Anne Williams married to Alexander Wilson Kennedy...But no mention of
them was in his data.
Rosina
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Hi Rosina. I'm a bit confused now. I couldn't find James Florence in the 1891 census. However, as I noted before, in the 1891 census: Catherine Anne Williams 23, was in the poorhouse, Inverurie Aberdeen. A second look revealed that George Williams 12 was actually Isabella (Barrack) William's son, but John H William's was noted to be Catherine's son.
In the 1881 census: John Williams 66, gatekeeper, railway crossing, Inverurie; Isabella 39 (wife); Catherine 12; William 8; George 2.
So are John Handie Williams and John Hardie two different people? They were both born in 1891.
In the 1901 census: James Florence 26 labourer, Hillwell Oyne; Catherine 32; James 3; Isabella 10m; John Handie Williams 10 (stepson); Annie Johnston Williams 7; Annetta Morrison Williams 4.
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Jim:
my computer is acting up - I hope u don't get this msg twice.
Sorry I hope it is not me confusing u - I try to keep my facts straight..
John Hardie was born Feb 18, 1891 the son of Florence Hardie & James Florence.. he was
illegitimate and no doubt raised by his mother as his next of kin on his death notice was
registered as his mother Florence Hardie, Oyne Aberdeenshire Scotland.
I guess Catherine had John Handie Williams before her marriage.. Handie versus Hardie no wonder u are confused.. Bear with me I'll try to put yr confusion to rest.
As I see Annie (7) & Annette Williams (4) were on the 1901 census with James Florence & family
I'll check to see who these girls belong to...
I find all these little intricacies a challenge, keeps my mind active in my old age.
Rosina
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Jim:
They are going to kick me off this website for taking up so much space...You will be getting
tired of me too...
Sorry but I'm going to add to yr confusion..
John HARDIE Williams was born Feb 16, 1891 New Place Kintore 204/00 0023
mother: Catherine Ann Williams - where the name Florence Hardie came in on his death as
his mother (next of kin) unless Catherine gave him to her to raise..
Annie Johnstone Williams born Feb 18, 1894 23 North St. Inverurie 204/00 0027
mother: Catherine Williams
Annette Morrison Williams born June 5, 1896 Tillykin, Kintore 204/00 0052
mother: Catherine Williams
Go into Google search : put in OYNE cemetery records & the tombstone inscriptions will come up
if u are unable to get them I will type them up but they are lengthy.
go to #'s 252 & 253 in regards to tombstone inscriptions for FLORENCE
#270: war Memorial 1914-1919 OYne Parish In honour of the gallent men who fell in the war
& u will find Pte J. Hardie 200th Can.
I'll give u a break.
Rosina
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Hi Rosina, Great info - thanks for that. Im always interested in those who served in the wars. My Dad was in the Air Force & I served as a Senior District Medical Officer for Veterans Affairs Canada for 10 years. Jim
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Rosina, you are welcome to make as many lengthy posts are you care to :) May I take this opportunity to remind you of rootschat's policy of not posting details of living or potential living persons? I have not edited your post but please use the pm system for more recent events.
Regarding the data on scotlandspeople: the images are not shown for privacy purposes. You can request a copy of the certificate but obviously this costs more than just downloading an image..
flst
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I’m still quite confused. You indicate that Annie, Annette and John Handie Williams were all the children of Catherine Williams. John Handie Williams was born 16Feb 1891. Then James Florence had a son John Hardie, born 18Feb 1891 (mother, Florence Hardie).
In the 1891 census, Catherine is in the poorhouse, Inverurie, along with John Handie Williams.
In the 1901 census, after her marriage to James Florence, we find all three of Catherine’s children with James and Catherine, but where is John Hardie?? An interesting puzzle?
I also found a John Hardie, born 9Dec 1891, Ellon Aberdeen (father, Alexander), living in Hartley Manitoba, Regiment # 186310, Private, 8th Battalion, died 10Nov 1917. Buried Dozinghern Military Cemetery, Belgium. If these are two different people, how coincidental – both born the same year & died a few days apart! In the 1901 census, I found a John Hardie (parents, Alexander & Mary) at Ellon Aberdeenshire (26km north of Aberdeen).
You mention your father George. Who did he marry & who were his parents?
I’m not sure if you’ve had a look at the trees in Ancestry. The Simpson tree (if you Google James Florence/ Jane Smith) has some great photos of the Florence clan. FYI: my Dad’s sister was named Florence.
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I am as confused as u re John Hardie - hopefully we will eventually sort him out...
John emigrated to Winnipeg, Manitoba as that is where he enlisted in the Canadian Infantry
March 30, 1916... The regimental number I have is 922192 whereby u mention the number
186310 - I will check with the Commonwealth Graves to see what if anything they have on
either of these regimental numbers.
I will search out what I can on his emigration to see if anyone else emigrated with him
Actually I can't see James Florence being John Hardie's father as he wld only of been 16 when
John was born, no doubt he was his stepfather...
John has given his mother Florence Hardie of Oyne as his next of kin - was she an aunt who maybe
raised him during some part of his life???? A little challenge to sink my teeth into, I'll let you
know what I find if anything...
I have copies of the births of Annie, Annette & John Hardie Williams are all children of Catherine
Anne Williams as per Scotland's People..
Re George Florence he was not my father - he was my half sister Molly Robertson Florence Wright's
father, he was born in 1905 the son of James Florence/Catherine Williams, George was a friend and worked on the railroad with my mother's brother - he was killed by a train in 1930 at Leuchars Fife.
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Jim:
I just found a picture of Pte John Hardie Reg. #186310 8th Bn Cdn Infantry 10/11/17 aged 26
son of Alexander & Mary Hardie of Shallowplough, Ellon, Aberdeenshire Scotland Plot X1V. B.16
Born Ellon, Aberdeenshire emigrated to Winnipeg, Canada commemorated on the War Memorial
in Ellon, Aberdeenshire
Picture courtesy of Great, great nephew Dale Hardie
Website: www.ww1cemeteries.com/ww1cemeteries/dozinghemmilitarycemetery.com
So that eliminates that John Hardie - I tried to check the Menin Gate (Ypres) Memorial in
Belgium where John is presumably buried to see if they had pictures of soldiers killed - but it seems that cemetery is more for missing soldiers, altho there were some picture of Australian soldiers
killed.
There is so many coincidences in these two individuals - born same year, they end up emigrating to Winnipeg, Canada, join the Cdn Infantry & get killed within days of each other - only difference
is their regiment numbers, one buried in Dozinghem Military Cemetery and the other Menin Gate
(Ypres) Memorial, Belgium
I'm going to sleep on this..
Rosina
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Jim
In google search enter Private John Hardie regiment #922192 Canadian Infantry
www.canadiangreatwarproject.com/searches/soldierdetailprint.asp?ID=56222
and www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/books
you will find the info I have on John Hardie stating his army data
Now I'm going to search when he emigrated to Canada...
One other thing on the census John Hardie Williams was noted as James Florence's stepson BUT
Annie & Annette were not noted as step daughters - cld he have fathered them before marrying
Catherine Anne Williams....Threw that in to add to yr confusion...
Have a great day..