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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: howdee on Monday 16 June 14 10:51 BST (UK)
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After years of looking into my Nobbs family it came to light that my great grandfather William Nobbs, had a second family. I'm sure William was not the biological father to them all but he may be to some of them. All of the children were registered as Bird, their mother's married name but later took up the name Nobbs, I don't know if the name change was official but as they married as Nobbs's I assume it was. I have found plenty of records going forward and have been in touch with a descendant who's mother has some knowledge that Bird or Byrd was linked to them but no further info. I also found what could be the mother of the children's past, Mary A. Bird, possibly born Mary A. Prior, in Hampshire, supported by census records. In 1891 Mary is a servant at Sandhurst along with a George Bird. George Bird and Mary Ann Prior married in Kingston in 1892.
The 1911 Census shows my gt grandfather and the Bird family living together in West Molesey:
William Nobbs 59 Widower. Head.
Mary Bird 49 Married. Housekeeper.
Sidney Bird 19
Gladis Bird 11
Ella Bird 9
Irene Bird 7
Esther Bird 4
Albert Edward Bird 3
All described as son/daughter
Later they were living in Linden Rd, Hampton, close to the known Nobbs family.
Albert Edward's birth cert gives no father's name.
In 1901 gt grandfather, William Nobbs is living with his known children, he was widowed in 1898.
The Bird family have not been found in the 1901 census.
Mary Bird died in 1912 and some of the children remained with William Nobbs at Linden Rd Hampton until his death in 1930. My father lived only two doors away as a child so must have known them, sadly he's long gone.
Any help in finding out more about the family would be much appreciated. I wonder if Mary Bird was still married "as stated on census", what happened to George Bird, when did William and Mary get together, were any of Mary's children fathered by William. I thought Albert Edward Bird's birth cert would help but it didn't, conclusively, Where were the Bird family in 1901, anything.
I can't find any ref to the Bird family in 1901 census.
Thanks for reading this which only came to light last year while looking at informant of William's death, Annie Parker, daughter. It's now beyond me so hope someone can help.
TTFN
Howard
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Might I suggest that as Mary stated on 1911, married 20 years. this was her years married to George Bird, he might well have been still alive, she is shown as housekeeper to William Nobbs, perhaps she never married William but lived as man and wife after initially being his housekeeper, the children I would think of as being George's, the fact the Edward doesn't have a father showing could mean he might have belonged to William, perhaps the children saw him as a father figure and was happy to stay with him after Mary died
It might mean you will have to purchase more certificates, Gladis/Gladys might be a good one to start with, nearer the census date
At the moment can't find Mary Bird or Gladys on 1901
regards
Louisa Maud
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Hi
There is a christening for Mabel Gladys Bird at East Molesey St Mary
3.6.1900 Mabel Gladys to Mary Bird 4 Park Road
Other children just to Mary
Ella 28.6.1903 and Irene Millicent same date.Born 25.10.1901 and 29.3.1903 no specific address
To George and Mary Ann at East Molesey
Amy Kathleen,Ethel Mary(born 1895) and Sydney James 21.4.1895.carman East Molesey
Amy Kathleen born 1893 on 1911 census as a servant.
So it looks like Mary Bird was with your William Nobbs by 1900.
Ciderdrinker
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Hi Louisa Maud
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I have the same thoughts as you but nothing is confirmed, given the gap between the first child "Sidney" and the rest, it could indicate that Mary's husband was not around for quite sometime, indications are that Mary was still married and it's likely that she was in a relationship with my William. I don't know how to check for adoptions or name changes, though I know they were often very informal in those days. I may buy another birth cert but don't want to buy them all, Gladys may be a good start as she is the first born after the long gap, Sidney is obviously a formal Bird so may get that to confirm fathers name. No they don't appear in the 1901 census unfortunately neither does Mary and husband in the electoral rolls that have been transcribed to Ancestry but maybe they show up somewhere that I can't access. I have found that cleverer people than me sometimes come up with something I've missed. Any further thoughts welcome.
Howard
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Marriage for Ethel Mary Bird age 22 17.7.1918 at East Molesey to Phillip Charles Parker age 19 artist s of Charles Parker munition worker gives her father as George Bird Butler.
Witnesses Mary A Bird and Kate Parker
Amy K Bird marries Mar 1920 Alfred Parker at Kingston
Ciderdrinker
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Hi
Could you give us the age and birthplace of that George Bird you found on the 1891 census?
Have you got that marriage cert for 1892 at Richmond?
It's difficult to try and trace him without some idea of age.
Ciderdrinker
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All of the children were registered as Bird, their mother's married name but later took up the name Nobbs, I don't know if the name change was official but as they married as Nobbs's I assume it was.
Under the laws of England & Wales, a person can call themselves anything they like!
Just as it's not done for fraud or deception. ;D
True - you can pay a lot of money to get a Deed Poll, but it's just not necessary.
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I agree with Garrard, I have in my own family a woman who was married and within a few years was with another man,(first one still alive) had at least 10 children with the second man, I have never found a marriage for the second man in her life, she did go on to marry another man years later in her married name, not what she had been known as for over 20 years, even 2 of her children born of completely different man took the same name as the other 10,
I think this family took up the surname of Nobbs because he treated them as his children, we assume, perhaps the older ones chose not to as they would have known he wasn't their father.
1911 she states only 1 child deceased having had 9, no doubt you have noted this as you have already quoted 1911
Louisa Maud
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Ciderdrinker
1891
RG12/894 FOLIO 44 PAGE 2/3
Mary Porter aged 22, born Hampshire but later shown as Basingstoke
George Bird 20, his age difficult to read as crossed through, born Sandhurst
Louisa Maud
PS The only birth that might fit in for George is
1869 March qtr WINDSOR, SANDHURST is in WINDSOR registration district
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Hi
Sorry for my late response, I had to go out and returned to find some great info, Thanks to all, especially Ciderdrinker for all the Baptism finds, that is a terrific help.
Re the 1891Census George Bird was 20 (born abt 1871) and Mary Prior was 23 (born abt 1868) They were servants at Sandhurst Berks, I found the Sandhurst birth for George and this indicates it's likely to be him.
I found Mary A. Prior, born Hampshire. in 1871 she was living at Cliddesden with her family, this is about 3 miles from Basingstoke Hampshire, so very likely correct. father: James Prior, mother: Sarah Prior.
I don't have marriage cert, I also don't know where William Nobbs was between 1901 and 1911 though in 1901 census, he was listed with some of his legitimate children at 227 Park Rd, East Molesey
I hope this is useful and am very grateful for your help.
Regards
Howard
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Hi again
Ciderdrinker's find of Mabel Gladys Bird is interesting, I didn't know about the Mabel name as it just states Gladys in the 1911 census, From 1920 to 1926 a Mabel Nobbs and a William Nobbs were living at 96 Linden Rd Hampton, At the time of William's death in 1930, his address was given as 9, Linden Rd, I believe this to be correct. So, Mabel Gladys solves another puzzle.
Thanks again.
Howard
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Morning
Sorry to say I can't find George Bird after 1895 ish.there are just too many possibles and he doesn't appear on the censuses so he could have gone anywhere and there doesn't seem to be a death taht fits 1895-1901.
This looks like him with his family 1881 1320/29/51
James Bird 52 painter Wokingham
Clara 50 same
Harry 17 ag lab Wokingham
Frank 13 errand boy Sandhurst
Charlie 12 scholar
George 10 Scholar Sandhurst
Maggie 9
Sarah Bryce servant 17 Ireland
Alice Bryce 1 Carlhampton
The previous census 1296/9/9 at Sandhurst has George 11 months.
James 41 carpenter
Clara 40 laundress
William 15 confectioner
Clara 12
Bertha 11
Emily 9
Harry 7
Frank 4
Charles 2
George 11 mths
Clara Sharp niece servant 20 East Moseley
Jenny 3mths Sandhurst
So there is a connection to East Moseley
Ciderdrinker
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Hi Ciderdrinker
Thanks for this, I too couldn't find anything further for George Bird. My interest in George was only to establish the kind of relationship that William Nobbs and Mary Bird had, I'm fairly sure that Mary was still married to George hence she and William didn't marry, I would have thought that the children would have had William's name but I guess Mary didn't really know what to do. You will see that William and family were at 227 Park Rd East Molesey in 1901 census. I came across the baptism record for Mabel Gladys Bird in 1900, the address was given as 4 Park Rd, East Molesey, I suppose they kept the two houses on to accommodate everyone before moving in together at Linden Rd where a number of the Nobbs clan lived.
Thanks for finding the important stuff, the baptism records were invaluable. I now feel confident enough to add the Nobbs/Bird children to my family tree. The 1901 census is a mystery but I guess Mary and the children were at 4 Park Rd. Thanks again.
Regards.
Howard.