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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Dave boy on Tuesday 17 June 14 20:57 BST (UK)
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Hello there....John and Harriet are my g grandparents - I know that they were married in 1912 and Johns father Charles is on there marriage cert - I also know that Charles wife name was Louise and she was a fruit hawker from Norwich - John and Harriet were travelling people as was Louise we think? But Johns father Charles came from the Chelmford area was not apparently?
Could anybody help with this as I've come across a brick wall !! - Thanks Dave boy
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Charles and loiusa are on the 1911 census in west ham with 3 other children - Betsey jane and rose. charles was born Chelmsford. betsy born Middlesex but other two born Orpington kent.
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Thank you...I have got some censuses of them living in Orpington going under the name Barnett - what iam trying to link is Johns father Charles who I believe came from a non Gypsy family? - I was in contact with a Terry Barnard from Australia on Ancestry who had a lot if info on maybe Charles family! - maybe I need to subscribe again- any more ifo you could help me with would be much appreciated -thanks again
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ok now you say Barnett surname I can find them in 1901 with other children and also John at home with family. I assume you have this. Charles is a farm labourer . SOn Joseph is a plate layer on railway and John is something to do with horses on a farm so they do not appear to be a travelling family.
there is a 9 year gap between betsy and rose which seems large. did wonder if that meant louise might be a second wife. but found them on 1891 census with more children so perhaps not. charles is general labourer and Louisa is fruit hawker . I assume you have this and this is where you got your info about Louisa from?
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this marriage might fit in with children ages etc
Louisa Elizabeth Balls
1881
Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district:Hackney
Volume:1b
Page:923
one groom is Charles Barnett
so it would seem that they are using the Barnett surname mostly
if that is the right marriage Louisa is easy to trace back with her parents john and loiusa balls and they do not appear to be a travellign family.
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Thank you so much vronlady - yes I've got my info about Louisa from the same censuses as you!
What's been throwing me is that I have been thinking that Charles and Louise are from a travelling family!
John and Harriet lived a travelling life! - my dad knows this to be true .
This is my first time on Rootschat so any info you could find for me vronlady would be much appreciated as I've been stuck for ages now on Charles and Louisa and to wether there from a Gypsy family or not.
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well if this was me and this was my direct line I would get one of the birth certificates for one of the children of Charles and louisa - prob John if that is you direct ancestor to make sure of Louisa maiden name. and then Charles an d Louisa marriage certificate too
john and harriett may have led a travelling life but it doesn't appear as if there families do and even john and harriett appear to have stayed round London and just into Kent.
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Ok thank you vronlady......could you tell me where and how I can buy Johns birth cert please? - I got John and Harriet's marriage cert via Ancestry when I was a member.
Dave
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Welcome Dave
Butting in to say - don't buy certificates via Ancestry or similar - they charge hefty prices as middleman. Something like £24 per cert last I heard?
Certificates can be ordered from the GRO online for £9.25 each, including postage. Use FreeBMD to find index details.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/GRO/content/certificates/default.asp
http://www.freebmd.org.uk
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Your so kind vronlady-sorry I've gone on FreeBMD and can't seem to fill out cells correctly! - could you tell me what info I need to put in the cells to get index for johns birth cert?
Dave
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Vronlady and I are different people :))
You need name, date and place really. We can help if you provide the information. Have you identified a birthplace for John from the censuses? Is he Barnard or Barnett in early life?
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Ooopppss sorry-iam not sure now!- The Barnards where not very patriotic and didn't like going to war for "king and country" so iam guessing they have used the Name Barnett - it was quiet common for travelling people of that time to change there surname slightly-my Dad has said that he's grandad only went by the name Barnard and he seems to think that he was born in East or west ham-not sure really avm228
Dave
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You said you had some Orpington censuses for the family. Does John appear in any of them and if so under what full name, age and birthplace?
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OK I have found the 1901 census. John is enumerated under surname Barnett, aged 16 b Edmonton Middx.
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So to sound thick - so should I put Johns surname as Barnett and not Barnard when going on websit to try and get he's birth cert?
Dave
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You do not sound thick! Try both variants in turn. If you do not find an Edmonton birth registration for John then maybe try one of his siblings.
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it is proving difficult to pin down a definite birth I for some of the children .
I think this is rose.
Rose Barnard birth reg Sep qtr 1900 Bromley Kent ref 2a 498
you would need to go on the GRO link given earlier and fill in the above details. the certificate will be sent in post to you and cost 9.25. you could specify that the father has to be called Charles and mother Louisa if you wanted.
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Could you tell me what info I have to put in the cells ? As I've tried with John I can't seem to get any info back from GRO
People are so helpfull on Rootschat - "so thankful " Dave
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go this gro link
http://www.gro.gov.uk/GRO/content/certificates/default.asp
click on the order a certificate online now. that will take you to the next page which is a registration page. you will need to complete that next. after registration you will be able to go onto to order a certificate. select birth certificate. put in year of birth - ie 1900 for rose and also that you know the GRO number press submit . this will take you to another page where all the details of the person should be filled in. once you get this far it should be self explanatory to fill in the details using the info in my last post.
it sounds difficult but once registered you should see all the pages and it should be reasonably straight forward
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Louisa is my Great nan......I have spent years trying to trace her and the most I can find is her maiden name was "Gaskin"..I think!
My Nan was Jane Barnard - sister to Rose and Betsy.
This is a pic of Lousia on a camp just outside Leicester........the boy was my uncle Johnny (dad's older brother) that was killed by a lorry while riding his bike just outside the camp just after this pic was taken.
I have a fair bit of info on the Barnard side and met a few of the Lees / Barnards at my aunt's funeral a few years ago
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Gary, I'm not connected to family in any way, just help out when I can.
There are a number of trees on Ancestry that show Louisa as Louisa Elizabeth Balls but that's incorrect - like yourself I believe that she was a Louisa Gaskin/variants.
I found one of the trees was in fact yours - the 1875 marriage you show is incorrect (the bride in that case was a Harriet Matilda Fryer). In fact, I don't think Charles and Louisa went through a 'legal' marriage - probably just a gypsy ceremony.
You show their daughter Matilda as bc.1890 but this should be c.1882
You don't show 1891 Census which was also in name of Barnett at 12 Eaton Place, Edmonton:
Charles Barnett 26??? General Labourer born N.K. (?)
Louisa Barnett 36 Fruit Hawker born Norwich, Norfolk
Matilda Barnett 9 born Gravesend, Kent
Job Barnett 8 born Edmonton
John Barnett 6 born Edmonton
William Barnett 2 born Edmonton
I think that these are some of the birth entries:
Matilda Gaskin Mar.qtr.1882 Gravesend - illeg. (per GRO's Index)
Job Barnard Mar.qtr.1884 Edmonton - mmn Garskin
William Barnard Dec.qtr.1889 Edmonton - mmn Garskin
Rose Barnard Sept.qtr.1900 Bromley - mmn Gascoine
Can't find matching birth entries for John, Betsy or Jane.
Looks like Job becomes Joseph in 1901.
Think this is Louisa's baptism:
Louisa Gasker bp.9/11/1856 Diss, Norfolk - dau. of James (hawker) and Abigail.
1851 Census, Kesgrave, Suffolk
James Gaskin 50 Hawker, Brooms and Brushes birthplace blank
Abigail Gaskin 40 ditto ditto
Caroline Gaskin 16 born Hatfield, Essex
William Gaskin 14 born Cataway (?), Suffolk
Jane Gaskin 12 born Colchester, Essex
Sally Gaskin 10 born Timber Log Lane, Essex
James Gaskin 7 born Penny Broke, Essex
Thomas Gaskin 5 born Halstead, Essex
Mary Ann Gaskin 3 born Ingatestone, Essex
Found baptism for some of the children:
Caroline Gascoine bp.8/2/1835 Hatfield Peveral, Essex, dau. of James (hawker) and Abigail
Mary Ann Gaskin bp.19/9/1847 Halstead, Essex ditto
William Gaskin bp.21/5/1837 Lawford, Essex ditto
George Gaskin bp.4/4/1852 Woodbridge, Suffolk ditto
Thomas Gaskin bp.16/11/1845 Gt. Blakenham, Suffolk ditto
Jane Gascoigue b.1/12/1839, bp.8/12/1839 Berechurch, Essex ditto
As you can see, baptisms not always in places where stated they were born.
Found 3 of the births in GRO index and this shows Abigail's maiden name was Lamb.
The 1851 census is the only one I can find the Gaskin's in.
Charles Barnard was a plain Charles, and as you say, son of William and Sarah - Sarah's maiden name was Whipps.
Hope this helps.
Annette
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Hi and many thanks
If I'm honest I'm finding it difficult to follow, much seems to be wrong to me and there may be different families in those lists
These are 100 % correct I am sure of...many thanks for your help.. much appreciated.
Gary
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Gary, I'm not connected to family in any way, just help out when I can.
There are a number of trees on Ancestry that show Louisa as Louisa Elizabeth Balls but that's incorrect - like yourself I believe that she was a Louisa Gaskin/variants.
I found one of the trees was in fact yours - the 1875 marriage you show is incorrect (the bride in that case was a Harriet Matilda Fryer). In fact, I don't think Charles and Louisa went through a 'legal' marriage - probably just a gypsy ceremony.
You show their daughter Matilda as bc.1890 but this should be c.1882
You don't show 1891 Census which was also in name of Barnett at 12 Eaton Place, Edmonton:
Charles Barnett 26??? General Labourer born N.K. (?)
Louisa Barnett 36 Fruit Hawker born Norwich, Norfolk
Matilda Barnett 9 born Gravesend, Kent
Job Barnett 8 born Edmonton
John Barnett 6 born Edmonton
William Barnett 2 born Edmonton
I think that these are some of the birth entries:
Matilda Gaskin Mar.qtr.1882 Gravesend - illeg. (per GRO's Index)
Job Barnard Mar.qtr.1884 Edmonton - mmn Garskin
William Barnard Dec.qtr.1889 Edmonton - mmn Garskin
Rose Barnard Sept.qtr.1900 Bromley - mmn Gascoine
Can't find matching birth entries for John, Betsy or Jane.
Looks like Job becomes Joseph in 1901.
Think this is Louisa's baptism:
Louisa Gasker bp.9/11/1856 Diss, Norfolk - dau. of James (hawker) and Abigail.
1851 Census, Kesgrave, Suffolk
James Gaskin 50 Hawker, Brooms and Brushes birthplace blank
Abigail Gaskin 40 ditto ditto
Caroline Gaskin 16 born Hatfield, Essex
William Gaskin 14 born Cataway (?), Suffolk
Jane Gaskin 12 born Colchester, Essex
Sally Gaskin 10 born Timber Log Lane, Essex
James Gaskin 7 born Penny Broke, Essex
Thomas Gaskin 5 born Halstead, Essex
Mary Ann Gaskin 3 born Ingatestone, Essex
Found baptism for some of the children:
Caroline Gascoine bp.8/2/1835 Hatfield Peveral, Essex, dau. of James (hawker) and Abigail
Mary Ann Gaskin bp.19/9/1847 Halstead, Essex ditto
William Gaskin bp.21/5/1837 Lawford, Essex ditto
George Gaskin bp.4/4/1852 Woodbridge, Suffolk ditto
Thomas Gaskin bp.16/11/1845 Gt. Blakenham, Suffolk ditto
Jane Gascoigue b.1/12/1839, bp.8/12/1839 Berechurch, Essex ditto
As you can see, baptisms not always in places where stated they were born.
Found 3 of the births in GRO index and this shows Abigail's maiden name was Lamb.
The 1851 census is the only one I can find the Gaskin's in.
Charles Barnard was a plain Charles, and as you say, son of William and Sarah - Sarah's maiden name was Whipps.
Hope this helps.
Annette
Hi Annette
had a bit of time to get my head around things now
Everything up to Joseph being changed as Job fits 100% .....many thanks.
The Middle section does not fit at all as far as I can see.
However the last section almost fits perfect except from I got Charles middle name as (F) from somewhere and a long time since I did any any research...which is a real shame as the paternal Romany and the Maternal Irish sides of my family interest me very much, and I tried to work the Romany side out before my late dad passed as he was extremely proud of his Romany roots.
Once again many thanks for your help
Gary