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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: rondaf76 on Saturday 21 June 14 11:07 BST (UK)
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Hi all :)
I've hit a mess of weeds in my family tree and hoped that more seasoned genealogists would be able to help me untangle it.
My great great grandmother was Minna Ruby Kirkland. She was born in Bungawalbin, NSW, around 1882/1883. Her death certificate lists her father as [unknown] Kirkland and her mother is unknown. On her marriage certificate, her father is listed as William Henry Kirkland [deceased] and her mother is listed as Eliza Ann Campbell.
However, Eliza Ann Campbell married Henry Kirkland, not William Henry Kirkland (see attached death cert). Henry Kirkland died before Minna was born. Eliza's death certificate does not have Minna listed as her child. Eliza did have a son called William Henry, and I thought perhaps Minna was his child, but his death certificate has no marriage or children listed.
So it's a bit of a mystery. There's an obituary on Trove for her but it doesn't give any more information than I already have.
Is it simply a case that she was the product of some kind of "unholy alliance" and records of her birth weren't kept? Can anyone suggest any other avenues that I could explore? I'm really hoping to solve this mystery. :D
Thanks,
Ronda.
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Welcome to Rootschat.
Looking at the ages of the children of William Henry and Eliza there are several who would have been old enough to be a parent for Minna. If she was born out of wedlock and raised by her grandparents it is not inconceivable that their names might have been used as parents on her marriage certificate.
I would suggest that you look more closely at the older "siblings" and try to assess whether one of them might have been her parent.
I would also look for alternative first names that may have been on a birth certificate but forgotten about by the time she married. Minna could be a pet name. Maybe she was a Whilhelmina or a Mary or some other name.
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Hello Ronda and welcome to RootsChat.
You don't give any indication on your profile as to where you may be located, so if you are based in NSW you may already know this.
The Kirkland family (but not the names you have posted) ran a coach company in the Northern Rivers area up to Queensland and down to Sydney. Not sure if they still do.
You could look at http://kirklandshistory.blogspot.com.au/
or www.kirklandshistory.com
which may give you some ideas.
Dawn M
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Looking at the ages of the children of William Henry and Eliza there are several who would have been old enough to be a parent for Minna. If she was born out of wedlock and raised by her grandparents it is not inconceivable that their names might have been used as parents on her marriage certificate. I would suggest that you look more closely at the older "siblings" and try to assess whether one of them might have been her parent.
OK, I'll do this. Aren't we lucky that we live in an era where such occurrences aren't swept under the carpet? :)
Welcome to Rootschat.
I would also look for alternative first names that may have been on a birth certificate but forgotten about by the time she married. Minna could be a pet name. Maybe she was a Whilhelmina or a Mary or some other name.
OK I'll have a look. I wasn't really sure what Minna could be short for but I'll have a bit of a Google and see what I can find.
Thanks for your suggestions. It's good to have a fresh perspective on things when you've been staring at a brick wall for a while. :D
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The Kirkland family (but not the names you have posted) ran a coach company in the Northern Rivers area up to Queensland and down to Sydney. Not sure if they still do.
You could look at http://kirklandshistory.blogspot.com.au/
or www.kirklandshistory.com
which may give you some ideas.
Oh wow! That's an interesting little one! They're all from up around that way, so no doubt they're connected in some way.
(Thanks for the profile reminder - I'll go in and fix it up now :)
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I have a couple of Wilhelminas in my treee who ended up as Minnie, so that could well be a starting point for a Minna too.
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Minna isnt mentioned as a sibling in William Henry's obit neither.
The late Mr. Kirkland was a bachelor and is survived by three sisters, Mrs. G. Shepherd (Casino), Mrs. J. Watterston (Woodburn), and Mrs. J. T. Clark (Coraki). Another sister, Mrs. Abbott, died some years ago in Queensland. Brothers are, Albert (Kyogle) and James (Nimbin). Two other brothers, John and Richard, predeceased him.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/94119962?
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Minna isnt mentioned as a sibling in William Henry's obit neither.
The late Mr. Kirkland was a bachelor and is survived by three sisters, Mrs. G. Shepherd (Casino), Mrs. J. Watterston (Woodburn), and Mrs. J. T. Clark (Coraki). Another sister, Mrs. Abbott, died some years ago in Queensland. Brothers are, Albert (Kyogle) and James (Nimbin). Two other brothers, John and Richard, predeceased him.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/94119962?
I obviously need to brush up on my Trove searching skills because I thought I'd exhausted every possible search term on Trove! Hadn't spotted that snippet before. Thank you so much!
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I wonder if Eliza Ann had a will and if Minna is mentioned in that ???
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I wonder if Eliza Ann had a will and if Minna is mentioned in that ???
Would I access that through state archives?
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I wonder if Eliza Ann had a will and if Minna is mentioned in that ???
Would I access that through state archives?
I did check the online indexes and couldnt find one. Im not sure how else to go about it, i havent as yet had to obtain a will from NSW, maybe contact the NSW archives or another member on here might be able to advice you further.
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/
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Obit for Eliza KIRKLAND d. Dec 1915
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/125930756?
It describes....four sons and four daughters.
They are named on the death certificate.
Minna must have known that she was not identified in the family as daughter of Henry and Eliza. She might have been a child without family.....close CAMPBELL or KIRKLAND...or not related at all....taken in by the KIRKLAND family.
With no family of her own Minna would names the Kirklands as her parents.
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Minnie could have been a foster child and maybe never knew who her parents were.
But i did find this ... I couldnt find any births for Minna under Kirkland so thought i would try Campbell. No father listed.
NSW birth index.
21203/1882 CAMPBELL RUBIE L M mother AGNES E MOLONG
Most likely a real long shot.
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Minnie could have been a foster child and maybe never knew who her parents were.
But i did find this ... I couldnt find any births for Minna under Kirkland so thought i would try Campbell. No father listed.
NSW birth index.
21203/1882 CAMPBELL RUBIE L M mother AGNES E MOLONG
Most likely a real long shot.
Interesting, because there's an obit for Agnes Campbell from Molong on Trove, which states she only had one child - a son called John Henry. BDM states that an Agnes Campbell from Molong had two children around a similar time - John Henry in 1879 and Rubie LLM in 1882. Perhaps Agnes is a relative of Eliza Ann and couldn't afford to keep the second one? I might go hunting down that path for a while :)
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I think it could be worth looking at, even if it just eliminates that birth for Minna.
Just posting this for future ref.
NSW birth index
17396/1879 CAMPBELL JOHN HENRY mother AGNES MOLONG
21203/1882 CAMPBELL RUBIE L M mother AGNES E MOLONG
NSW death index
13765/1928 CAMPBELL AGNES JOHN ELIZA DUBBO
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/132337355?
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Hi Ronda76
Welcome to Rootschat.
The following website "mid north coast pioneers" contains info on the Kirkland family.
http://stuart.scss.dyndns.info/FamilyTree/search.php
Just search for Kirkland. This website covers families that are pioneers of the area and are inter-related.
Regards
Jennaya
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Could this be a clue.
John Kirkland's children living with grandmother Eliza Anne Kirkland
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/93058180?searchTerm=kirkland%20bungawalbyn&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom|||dateTo|||sortby
Sorry don't know how to shrink the link.
Regards
Jennaya
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Could this be a clue.
John Kirkland's children living with grandmother Eliza Anne Kirkland
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/93058180?searchTerm=kirkland%20bungawalbyn&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom|||dateTo|||sortby
Sorry don't know how to shrink the link.
Regards
Jennaya
I got all excited by this! But then I just checked BDM and I don't think she was one of the kids (see attached doc). But it still enabled me to rule out John as the potential father and it's starting to paint a bit of a picture of Eliza Ann Kirkland as being a nanna who just ended up with all these random grandkids on her doorstep...so it's one step closer! :)
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Try this marriage for the person mentioned in the article. A new surname to consider.
10064/1919 BIRNEY THOMAS MILGATE CEDILIA M LISMORE
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Sorry, our posts crossed
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Hi Ronda
Not sure if you have tried this, but please also search Queensland BDM as a lot of people from the northern rivers area moved across the border and back quite frequently.
Regards
Jennaya
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What do you make of this forum. Do you know these people?
http://australiansurnamesgroup.yuku.com/topic/2406/KIRKLAND-Minna-Ruby#.U6a5QbH9Zws
The Mary Ruby does sound like a possibility
Regards
Jennaya
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I have been researching Minna and have the same prob,
Minna is also my great grand mother.
Plz feel free to contact me
Anne
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Jennaya
the link to the site u posted is mine,
I still haven't found anything on these but there was a child born Ruby M Kirkland in 1882 to a Agna Kirkland, (i think it was fish river nsw, don't have my records with me). I haven't been able to connect this baby with Minna, either
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Minna isnt mentioned as a sibling in William Henry's obit neither.
The late Mr. Kirkland was a bachelor and is survived by three sisters, Mrs. G. Shepherd (Casino), Mrs. J. Watterston (Woodburn), and Mrs. J. T. Clark (Coraki). Another sister, Mrs. Abbott, died some years ago in Queensland. Brothers are, Albert (Kyogle) and James (Nimbin). Two other brothers, John and Richard, predeceased him.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/94119962?
But remember that the initials given for his sisters would be their husbands' initials, not theirs, unless they were all widowed.
Dawn M
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The late Mr. Kirkland was a bachelor and is survived by three sisters, Mrs. G. Shepherd (Casino), Mrs. J. Watterston (Woodburn), and Mrs. J. T. Clark (Coraki). Another sister, Mrs. Abbott, died some years ago in Queensland. Brothers are, Albert (Kyogle) and James (Nimbin). Two other brothers, John and Richard, predeceased him.
Hi Dawn
Thanks for this information.
On Minna's marriage Cert, Sarah (who I think off hand was Mrs Watterston) signed as witness.
I don't have the information with me on who was the other witness
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Could she be the "Minnie Kirkland" aged eight, who is listed as singing here in 1892?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/125898073?searchTerm=Bungawalbin%20Kirkland
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Hard to say, as I have her year birth as 1882, but with no real record, her yr birth could be later.
Minna or even Minnie could have been a nickname
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Sorry for reigniting this conversation. Minna Ruby Kirkland is also my Great great grandmother and I've been trying to work out who her parents were... and stumbled across this site with the same questions being asked! The original thread was from a number of years ago now... wondering if anyone got to the bottom of it as I'm just starting!
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Minna kirklands parents are
Eliza Ann Kirkland and
David Hobson