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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Dorset => Topic started by: tiawooster on Thursday 03 July 14 07:01 BST (UK)
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George Raymond Schofield married Leila M P Fullinger on 26 April 1939, I have the certificate, his father is James Percival Schofield. His death certificate says George was born on the 20 January 1915, Bournemouth. I am unable to find his birth certificate or his fathers marriage certificate anywhere, can anyone help please.
Mary
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Hi Mary
Information on death certificates is all down to the knowledge of the informant and may not always be accurate.
Who was the informant and what was the relationship?
Do you know that the date of birth is accurate?
Dawn
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I got the information from find my past.
Mary
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Where was his father living in 1911. I see there is a possibility for a Lambeth birth for him & a Bournemouth death.
I think the entry on FindMyPast only gives the reg district that he died and not where he was born, you would need the death certificate for that. Even then the information given by the informant cannot be guaranteed correct.
Rosie
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Born in Dec 1876Lambeth RD, his father may be in Aldershot in 1911
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That looks like the right James Percival, because there is this entry in Probate index-
James Percival Schofield of 10a Prince of Wales Road Westbourne Bournemouth died 27 Jan 19 54 Probate to George Raymond Schofield incorporated accountant. Effects £5496 1s 11d
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Born in Dec 1876Lambeth RD, his father may be in Aldershot in 1911
Certainly in Aldershot in 1901
RG 13 610 104 54
H/H of Annie Cooper, widow
James P Schofield 24 single boarder Cycle tyre repairer bn Camberwell
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At this stage, as we can't find a birth for George & a marriage for James, it looks like George may be illegitmate and registered under his mothers surname or born abroad so doesn't appear in the records.
His father seems to have acknowledged him as his son as he is named as the executor on the 1954 probate entry.
They were all certainly in the Bournemouth area by 1939 for George's marriage.
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A copy of James Percivals Will may (or may not) help, to see how he refers to George.
(I had a very helpful Will of one of my ancestors once, whereby he referred to the son as "born to xxxxx before marriage but I acknowledge him as my son". The son had used his mums maiden name as his surname throughout his life, but took his fathers surname after this. I always wondered if he never knew who his father was until he acknowledged him in this way, after his death, and thought if that was the case it was very sad. Sorry, an aside!)
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Frederick Charles Tucker married Hannah (Annie) Cooper 1907 Farnham RD
I wonder if James P served in WW1?
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Another Schofield with probate to George Raymond - just realised it is the same address as James ::)
Ethel Nellie Schofield (Widow) of 10a Prince of Wales Rd, Westbourne, Bournemouth
Died 16 July 1957
Probate to George Raymond Schofield incorporated accountant £3629.0s.3d
Ethels death ( bn c1887 )
Ethel N Schofield
Registration Sep 1957
Age at Death 70
Bournemouth reg dist
6b / 141
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There is an article in Western Gazette 13 July 1934 for George driving without due care. It was his fathers car. He was living in Bournemouth then.
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The informant on James Percival Schofield's death was G.R. Schofield, son, of 20 Erpingham Road, Branksome.
James P died at 10A Prince of Wales Road, Westbourne.
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Insider information eh?
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The death certificate is freely available on Ancestry!
Somebody has added it to a tree.
No mother for George or wife for James on the tree!! ::)
From The London Gazette, 1910:
Notice is hereby given, that the Partnership heretofore existing between us the undersigned, Frank Mancy, James Richard Bowditch, and James Percival Schofield, carrying on business as Cycle Agents at Aldershot, in the county of Southampton, under the style or firm of "THE ELMSDALE CYCLE COMPANY" has been dissolved by mutual consent as from the 31st day of December 1909, so far as regards the said Frank Mancy, who retires from the firm. All debts due to, and owing by the late firm will be received and paid by the said James Richard Bowditch and James Percival Schofield, by whom alone the business will in future be carried on at Aldershot aforesaid, and under the same style. Dated this 13th day of March 1910.
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Electoral register for 1920 is showing James Percival at The Nook, Ravine Road, Poole.
I know that it is early for women to appear on electoral registers but he is showing alone, other entries on the page have females entered.
Rosie
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Maybe?
Births, March qtr 1915
Portsmouth district vol 2b, page 954
Schofield, George A Mother's maiden name: Nuttall
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Many thanks to everyone, I am going to take a risk and get Ethel Nellie Schofield death certificate.
Mary
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Many thanks to everyone, I am going to take a risk and get Ethel Nellie Schofield death certificate.
Mary
This will only show her married name, age, date of death, address cause of death & informant most of which we know from the probate. :-\ I wonder if there was a newspaper report for the wedding of George Raymond Schofield that may give some clues
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I would say a copy of James P's will would be a better buy.
To see what mention he made of his wife and family, other than of George.
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I would say a copy of James P's will would be a better buy.
To see what mention he made of his wife and family, other than of George.
I would agree :)
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Where would I buy a copy of his will from.
Mary
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See
https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance/searching-for-probate-records
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Thanks to everyone, nothing in James will about a wife so I brought Ethels death certificate where it says she is James widow, whether I have her maiden name right is another mater. I have put the paper work on my tree on Ancestry if any one wants to look.
Mary
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What family members does James's Will mention? How does he refer to George Raymond (the executor) - is it son?
Maybe next step is a copy of Ethels Will, see reply #10
You mention Ethels maiden name - but we dont know that do we?
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I have got a copy of George Raymond Schofield death certificate, more puzzles its says informant Peter John Scholfield, can find 2 marriages for him but no birth details. George Raymond Schofield was born in Aldershot, but still unable to find birth details for him.
Mary
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You mention Ethels maiden name - but we dont know that do we?
Ethel Nellie Baker I gather from an Ancestry tree (I don't know if it's tiawoosters though) bn 1887 Southampton
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01992/
She is already in Bournemouth area in the last census
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The only Ethel Nellie Baker I can find on FreeBMD birth reg in 1887 was in Solihull district not Southampton. Searching on 1887 +/- 2 years gives two Ethel Nellie Bakers in 1885 (Bridgnorth and Fulham districts), none in 1886, 1888 or 1889.
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I may have the name baker wrong, one member of the family who lives near Aldershot is going to see if he can find any records, seems queer so many records can not be found.
Mary
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Clutching at straws but can anyone find any more information on this Ethel Nellie
Birth March qtr 1915
George R Blackburn
mothers maiden name Rowley
Farnham reg district 2a 262
Could this be her :-\
Birth Sep qtr 1884
Ethel Nellie Rowley
Kidderminster 6c 247
and poss marriage
December qtr 1902
Frederick G Blackburne
Ethel Nellie Rowley
Kidderminster 6c 385
They are in Yorkshire in the last census but I can't see anything more on her
ADDED I could not see any other Blackburn(e) / Rowley marriage that fitted
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Finding a Blackburn in Yorkshire is no easy thing - plenty in my tree but not this one!
This certainly seems to fit with the correct quarter for George Raymond's reported birth in correct district for Aldershot. Ethel Nellie Rowley's birth about 3 years earlier than that of Ethel Nellie Schofield but that is taken from reported age at death - so only as good as the informant knew.
So George R could have been born a Blackburn, then his mother and father separated, mother went to live with James P Schofield as his wife but could not marry because her husband would not divorce her.
This would account for no birth cert in Schofield name for George R and no marriage between Ethel and James P.
There are two deaths for Frederick G Blackburns whose age at death would match with his stated age in 1911.
Q2 1928 age 51 Leeds vol 9b page 355
and
Q1 1955 age 80 Bradford vol 2b 254.
If the former, the impediment to marriage would be removed in 1928. The latter one just outlived James P by a year, so would fit the theory.
In 1911 Ethel and Frederick Blackburn have two children, the boy dies a few months after census date - he could have thrown a spanner in the theory given his name, can't see what happens to the girl.
The other thing, who was Peter John Schofield (informant on George R's death cert), I don't see that he had a son or a brother, but may have adopted, in that case likely to still be living.
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They were exactly the lines I was thinking along LizzieL :)
The George R Blackburn birth cert would confirm his middle name and whether his mother was Ethel Nellie Rowley. If only we didn't have to wait so long for the next census.
tiawooster .. What was the address for Peter J Schofield when he was the informant on the death.
Rosie
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The other thing, who was Peter John Schofield (informant on George R's death cert), I don't see that he had a son or a brother, but may have adopted, in that case likely to still be living.
Using George and his wife's surnames there is a birth that is possible mid 1940's
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There is an article in Western Gazette 13 July 1934 for George driving without due care. It was his fathers car. He was living in Bournemouth then.
The Western daily Press reports same case on 10 July 1934, gives name as George Reginald Schofield. But newspapers are not renowned for being 100% accurate.
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There is an article in Western Gazette 13 July 1934 for George driving without due care. It was his fathers car. He was living in Bournemouth then.
The Western daily Press reports same case on 10 July 1934, gives name as George Reginald Schofield. But newspapers are not renowned for being 100% accurate.
The good thing is that it says his father is James Percival Schofield ;D
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And gives the address which matches with that in the Phone directories for the Schofield fruit shop.
If I've got the right birth, there is a corresponding death age 0 in the same quarter.
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If I've got the right birth, there is a corresponding death age 0 in the same quarter.
You are right ;D Back to the drawing board then.
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Have been looking a bit more at non-genealogy sites.
Will send PM
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I am beginning to think there was no marriage. In James Schofield will there is money for a Florence Marion Huntington and a Gladys Sophia Freeman, living at his address. I have found death details for both of these. There is a Peter John Schofield living at Bournemouth, I think his company is now dissolved.
Mary
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In James Schofield will there is money for a Florence Marion Huntington
Florence Marion ties it in nicely to Ethel Nellie Rowley ;D
Florence Marian Blackburn
September qtr 1904
Kidderminster reg district
Florence Marian Huntington
Birth 10 August 1904
September qtr 1980
Age at Death 76
So Ethel Nellie Rowley was married to Frederick Blackburn so probably couldn't marry James.
I now believe that the 1915 George R Blackburn birth I gave you earlier is the one you are after. :)
Rosie
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Florence M Blackburn married Huntington, Bournemouth district 1941
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Thanks for the PM LizzieL ;D
It is looking as though the children went with their mother.
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Gladys's death registration gives dob as 30 Sep 1898. There is a Gladys Sophia Freeman reg in Farnham district Q4 1898. Same district as George R - covering Aldershot but 17 years earlier.
The other two Gladys Sophias registered in that quarter are in Edmonton and Croydon, would be a huge coincidence if either married a Freeman.
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Gladys Sophia in 1901 living 41 Albert rd, Aldershot daughter of Thomas Freeman born Lambeth - fish salesman and Mary Kate Freeman born Wendover Bucks.
Don't see a relationship, maybe just a family friend
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Don't see a relationship, maybe just a family friend
I had thought the same thing ;D
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Gladys's father was a fishmonger?!
So I don't see a professional relationship, either! ;D
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The Freemans lived at two different addresses in Aldershot in 1901 and 1911, but they may be just residential addresses not living above the fish shop. The two addresses are about 0.4 miles apart on foot, longer by road because of modern one way systems. James Percival was a single lodger again at two different addresses but just round the corner from each other and just under half a mile from either of the Freeman addresses. So in a small area but not that close. James Percival was a bicycle repairer when in Aldershot but became a fruiterer (and florist?) when he was in Bournemouth, but don't know how soon after arriving he changed. The Blackburns were in Yorkshire in 1911, but must have arrived in Aldershot by Sept 1915 for birth of George Raymond. With Aldershot's association with the military, it is possible Mr Blackburn joined the army after outbreak of war and posted there and the family came too. Ethel Nellie started a relationship with James P, George R may be his natural child in which case that would place the Blackburns in Aldershot late in 1914, But as Ethel was married to Mr Blackburn he was registered as his child.
Gladys may have been a friend of Ethels. George R's birth cert should give the Blackburn's residence at the time of his birth, maybe close to the Freemans. James P was in Poole by 1920, but not known if Ethel and the children were with him at that stage.
Gladys's father and James P were both born in Lambeth, maybe the connection goes further back than Aldershot.
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James left money to George R Schofielf, Marion Huntington and Gladys Sophie Freeman.
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Hi tiawooster
Do you have all the information you are after on this family now or is there something else we should be looking for.
We have established James mother as Ethel Nellie Rowley and found his probable birth under the surname Blackburn(e). We assume that his parents never married as Ethel was still married.
Rosie
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I would like to thank you for all the work you have done for me, just a small question, is there anywhere on line as I am unable to travel I could look for a photo or advert for Schofield grocers or fruit shop not sure as on his death certificate he was a master fruiter, I have googled and come uo with nothing. many thanks again.
Mary
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In the 1946 Bournemouth telephone directory, James Percival's home address was 10A Prince of Wales road, the entry below is J P Schofield, Florist, Fruiterer, 3 Grand Parade, Poole road, Westbourne. I can't find this on a modern map, but suspect it would have been close to the old Grand cinema just east of the junction of Poole Road and Seemoor road.
Adverts might be in a local paper of the time. The Bournemouth Echo would be the obvious one, but I don't think this is on FindMyPast.
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Just found a reference on Flickr which has 4 and 5 Grand Parade aka 53 and 55 Poole road, so number 3 should be 51 Poole Road. Just found it on Google streetmap, but not a fruiterer now.
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I thought you may like to see these from the Bournemouth Echo