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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Marieeliz on Friday 04 July 14 21:42 BST (UK)
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John O'Brien was born in Ireland and married to Mary Hughes. I know a few things about his family and they are on 1881 and 1891 census. My grandmother Elizabeth O'Brien, married name France, was their daughter. He worked in Tate and Lyle. I was told he was killed in an accident in Tate and Lyle. I have purchased a couple of death certificates for a John O'Brien's neither of which were correct. They also had a son called Thomas who I was also told was killed accidently. I also had a death certificate for a 4 year old Thomas O'Brien which wasn't the correct one.
The reason I have started to pursue this again, after many years, is that I have been contacted by my mother's cousin also John O'Brien, I haven't seen this relation or spoken to him since the 50's, when he was 4 and I was 10, but someone looked on my tree trying to help and gave him my name as they had also come to a dead end trying to get more information.
The strange thing is that, my late brother Charles John Williams, served in the Royal Navy in 1960's on the Ark Royal and so did my Mum's cousin. His son, my third cousin, I am told is also serving in the Navy as a Commander in the Fleet Air Arm connected to the newly named Queen Elizabeth launched today. I also served in the WRNS in the 60's. As John O'Brien said to me "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree". Any help appreciated.
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Hi
Can you include the birthyears for John, Mary, Thomas & Elizabeth
What is the last census he appears on -?? 1891
Is Mary shown as a widow on the following census - ??1901
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see if this helps Carol
Mary Ann O`Brien baptised 1883 at St Nicholas ,Liverpool parents John O`Brien and Mary Hughes
Elizabeth Ellen O`Brien baptised 1885 at Holy Cross,Liverpool - parents John O`Brien and Mary Hughes
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolrcbaptisms/baptisms.php
baptisms 1883 - 1900 I can only presume Thomas was born pre 1883
maybe this is them in 1881 census as O`Brian...if it is Thomas is b 1880/1881
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQDD-7BS
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Marieliz...it will take a long time if you don`t know the year of death - but have a look through these deaths and inquests in the Liverpool newspaper of the time
good luck
http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/deathsandinquestsmain.html
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Thank you for the replies. Unfortunately, I only have information given by my mother when she was alive and it was all very general, she was born 1905. I now her granny was a Widow as my Mum was growing up. It was my Mum who told me the Tate and Lyle story plus the one about her Mum's brother being killed.
I have a little more information in the 1911 census Mary is shown as a Widow married 30 years she had 6 children of whom only 2 were living my Nan and her sister Mary Ann. Thomas was born in January 1881 and died September 1884. Mary Ann was born in 1884. Thomas died shortly after the census in June 1911.
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Did you get the death certificate for this one?
Death Index
Name: John O'Brien
Registration Year: 1900
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at Death: 62
Registration district: Liverpool
Volume: 8b
Page: 120
Burial
Name: John O'Brien
Age: 62
Death Year: 1900
Burial Date: 4 Sep 1900
Parish: Ford Cemetery, Lancashire, England
Address: Liverpool Coroner
Burial Type: Public
Grave: BZ 2931
Note: records show grave as B 2931 but burials refer to section BZ
Blue
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Maybe one of the death certs you have IS the correct one, and the family story about the fatal accident at Tate And Lyle is not quite accurate?
Family stories so often get changed over the years, maybe he did have an accident at T &L but that wasnt the cause of his death, or something like that.
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Is Mary shown as a widow on the following census - ??1901
This was an important question of Carols, in order to narrow down when John died.
To answer it, here is Mary in 1901
RG 13 3417 20 31
48 Peach Street, Liverpool
Mary O'Brien 56 widow charwoman bn Liverpool
Elizabeth 16 dtr domestic servant bn Liverpool
So, you now know John died 1891-1901.
Here is the 1891, with John still alive
RG 12 2913 118 32
Edward Street, Liverpool
John O'Brian 45 general labourer bn Ireland
Mary 34 bn Liverpool
Mary 10
Elizabeth 5
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Thank you for your help. Yes, I have had the death cert. for the John O'Brien 62. He had no home address and was obviously homeless. The two others were registered by wife and father and address was not any of the recognised family addresses. The addresses given are all familiar to me Peach Street, Ainsworth St. my gggrandmother lived there and my Mum mentioned them often. I also believe they lived in Edward Street at some point. I have now passed the certs onto Liverpool FHS for their collection.
I appreciate what you are saying re family stories and must admit I always took my Mum's tales with "a pinch of salt" but she has been proved right every time until now.
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Where did John O'Brien 62 die? What did the Coroner say about his death?
Blue
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John O'Brien does not (yet) appear on my database of sugar refinery workers at www.mawer.clara.net/sugaroo.html , nor is there (yet) an O'Brien fatality listed on the fatalities page of the same website at www.mawer.clara.net/fatalities.html .
This does not mean that your story is in anyway false, but simply that maybe he did not work at Tate's at census time, and that the accident has not come to my notice yet.
Garstonite's suggestion that you search the deaths and inquests in the Liverpool newspapers is your best hope, I think. Experience has shown that it's the newspapers that report such fatalities in all of the sugar refining towns/cities. Interestingly, such accidents are not mentioned in the books about Tate & Lyle, Liverpool.
Henry Tate's refinery was in Love Lane, Liverpool, and did not become Tate & Lyle until 1921.
Will happily add details of John O'Brien to the database if there is written confirmation of him working in the sugar industry.
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John O'Brien does not (yet) appear on my database of sugar refinery workers at www.mawer.clara.net/sugaroo.html , nor is there (yet) an O'Brien fatality listed on the fatalities page of the same website at www.mawer.clara.net/fatalities.html .
This does not mean that your story is in anyway false, but simply that maybe he did not work at Tate's at census time, and that the accident has not come to my notice yet.
Garstonite's suggestion that you search the deaths and inquests in the Liverpool newspapers is your best hope, I think. Experience has shown that it's the newspapers that report such fatalities in all of the sugar refining towns/cities. Interestingly, such accidents are not mentioned in the books about Tate & Lyle, Liverpool.
Henry Tate's refinery was in Love Lane, Liverpool, and did not become Tate & Lyle until 1921.
Will happily add details of John O'Brien to the database if there is written confirmation of him working in the sugar industry.
He does appear on your website but different spelling of the surname. I've checked old newspapers but no mention of the death.
Blue
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How right you are, Blue ... 1881, John O'Brian, 46 Ainsworth St. Good spot, thank you.
So the first part of the story is correct, he did work at a sugar refinery, and it could have been Tate's (opened in 1872). In 1891 he is listed as a general labourer, which may have been at Tate's but might have been anywhere ... but when and where did he die ?
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I'm curious about the death certificate for John O'Brien 62 he looked like a good match to me. The burial record says Liverpool Coroner where it usually has residence. This means he had a sudden or violent death necessitating an inquest into how he died. Where did this man die and what other details were provided?
Blue
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Thank you for all the information. As I said I have passed this certificate to Liverpool Family History Society as it did not give any details of residence or family. I got the impression that the person was sleeping on the street and was homeless.
I had a similar problem with the spelling of my mothers family name which in one census was listed as Francis not France. The family spell it with the e now.
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Forgot to mention I have looked at deaths and inquests on the list and there is no one by that name. Although there is a gap as 1891 is missing on both inquests and deaths.
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I'm curious about the death certificate for John O'Brien 62 he looked like a good match to me. The burial record says Liverpool Coroner where it usually has residence. This means he had a sudden or violent death necessitating an inquest into how he died. Where did this man die and what other details were provided?
Blue
... and there should have been an 'occupation' and 'cause of death', which may help us with this.
Marieeliz ... maybe you could ask Liverpool Family History Society for this information.
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I'm curious about the death certificate for John O'Brien 62 he looked like a good match to me. The burial record says Liverpool Coroner where it usually has residence. This means he had a sudden or violent death necessitating an inquest into how he died. Where did this man die and what other details were provided?
Blue
... and there should have been an 'occupation' and 'cause of death', which may help us with this.
Marieeliz ... maybe you could ask Liverpool Family History Society for this information.
I usually scan all my certificates even the wrong ones for easy access. I've found out later on in a couple of cases the people with the same names, although not the people I thought they were, were actually related to those I was researching.
I haven't got any German sugar workers in my tree but I do have some German ancestry this is my website about them:-
http://albach.webs.com/
Blue
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I haven't got any German sugar workers in my tree but I do have some German ancestry this is my website about them:-
http://albach.webs.com/
Blue
Thank you, Blue. Beautifully presented research.
I'm always pleased for folk who manage to trace their German ancestry ... my website is the result of not being able to do so. :)
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Hi Blue, I cannot recall any significant information only that the Coroner signed it and the death was given, I think, as alcoholism, although it did not say that directly. No residence was given nor occupation. That is why I assumed the person was homeless and perhaps a vagrant. I am no longer a member of Liverpool Family History Society and although I sent the certificates to them you have to be a member to access any certificates which have been passed onto them. I am locked out if I try and access their forum.
I will rejoin when I come back from holiday, I am getting ready to go to Canada in 10 days or so.
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I wonder who buried John O'Brien 62. You would expect that sort of death to be followed by burial at Walton Park paid for by the parish. There must have been family or friends around to pay for the single interment at Ford Cemetery. The problem with death certificates involving the Coroner is they are the informant so you don't usually get family information.
Blue
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If I get the information from the death certificate, is there anyway I can find that particular Coroners report to get more detail?
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There's only very basic information on microfilm at the Liverpool Record Office so it's unlikely there will be more information there. The full case record has not survived there's information here about these records:-
http://www.forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=11685
Blue
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These are the details from the two death certificates already ordered:-
John O'Brien, 31st Aug 1900, 62, General Porter, Pneumonia, 23 Milton St Islington Liverpool
John O'Brien, 30th April 1892, 52, Labourer, 9 Bronte St Mount Pleasant, Pneumonia, died in Liverpool Workhouse
Blue
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This one lived in the same part of Liverpool as your John O'Brien:-
John O'Brien, 30th April 1892, 52, Labourer, 9 Bronte St Mount Pleasant, Pneumonia, died in Liverpool Workhouse
Blue
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Thanks for this information Blue. I probably dismissed it because Bronte Street was never mentioned. Peach St. was, also Edward St. and Ainsworth Street. My Mum's family lived all around that area. My Grandad France was born in Duckinfield St. and that street is given on census records as his place of birth. Collingwood St. is also a street were the France family lived quite a few of the France's lived in that street. So the O'Brien's and the France's lived near one another. My Mum was 99 when she died in 2004 and was as "sharp as a pin" until the end.
I am stuck now then?As I don't suppose Workhouse records are available. I am wondering if he did have an accident and perhaps died later of pneumonia. I was even told "he fell into a VAT"! I am now looking to see if Mary Ann O'Brien, John and Mary's elder daughter, who had a son also called Thomas was the one who actually died aged 4 in a house fire. All help much appreciated.
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There are records for the Liverpool Workhouse in the Liverpool Record Office you might be able to get more information about this man and his family from the records held on microfilm there.
I'll send you the details about getting the certificate back in a private message.
Blue
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Thanks Blue, I was thinking of writing enclosing a sae. Will do that and post it tomorrow. Will visit Records Office when I come back from Canada after 5th August.