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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: familysleuth on Sunday 06 July 14 10:16 BST (UK)
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Going further with my White family has been very frustrating so far, so I am hoping that this post will reach out to the family member who commissioned, or created a huge 'Descendants Chart' - a copy of which I was given a few years ago. Its a 20 page listing family members by generation, and was created on the 31 Oct 1996. Someone has gone to a LOT of trouble with this, so they were or are serious family historians.
John White was (according to his death cert in 1916) born in 1842, County Derry. He married Mary Nellon (or Nellen, Neylon, or Neilon etc) in 1865, Dunedin New Zealand. They lived in Orepuki and had at least 11 children. Mary was also from Ireland, according to her death certificate from County Kerry. She was born about 1847. Their ITM shows that they arrived independently to the Dunedin area in May and July of 1865. John's obituary says that he arrived a year before his marriage via Australia, where he was looking for gold.
If a family member recognises the chart or knows more detail about John and Mary, I would be delighted to hear from them. So far the common name of White and differing ages (at their deaths I think family members were uncertain of details) plus the confusing spellings of Nellen etc has not allowed me to go very much further than very basic details of their lives.
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Hello,
There are several trees on Ancestry for your couple.
Regards
Jean
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Would not your first port of call be the person who gave you the chart? Surely they would be able to tell you who gave it to them? :-\
You would probably be wise to do your own research anyway (it sounds as though this is what you are doing). Their NZ marriage certificate would give more reliable estimates of age than their d/cs, so this would be the logical place to start I would think. I don't know what would be included on NZ marriage certificates - parent's names? ages? Place of birth?
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Hi,it is best to purchase the printouts rather than certificates,if you look here it will tell you what is on them
https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/dataCollected/
Cheers Janette
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Hi,it is best to purchase the printouts rather than certificates,if you look here it will tell you what is on them
https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/dataCollected/
Cheers Janette
Sadly, parents not named in 1865.... :-\
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Hi everyone, thanks for replying.
I was given the chart by my mother, who is now very elderly. She does not know where it came from. My immediate family left NZ for Australia(where I live) in the 1960's and I have never had much contact with my NZ relatives. Few are left. So very sadly I am not in contact with anyone - and have no idea where the chart originated - hence my inquiry online.
One of the trees on Ancestry is mine, and I have been in contact with other researchers, but found no-one who (a) has another copy of the chart or even knows about it or (b) can tell me anything more about John White and Mary Nellen from family knowledge or previous research.
I agree with you about the printouts and certificates: interestingly I did not send for these but was given them by a White family member I contacted who could tell me nothing about where they originated, did not have a copy of the chart, and added that they had come to a dead end in finding more about John and Mary. Now, looking at them more closely, I can see that whoever obtained them did so in 1993, possibly at the time all of that huge amount of research was being done which resulted in the chart. Or the date could be a coincidence too! I will eventually send for the originals.
I do have a copy of the original marriage certificate, and their ages are for John White - 'full' and Mary Nellen '-'. So I obtained their Intention to Marry and found there that John claims he is 23, and Mary that she is 18, and it is stated also that there was 'no person to give consent' in her case. I have contacted members of the NZGS and there are a couple who have these names as research interests, but after exploring a few leads, I found no connections at this stage.
Using the information on the death certificates - information often given by family members - I find that Mary was believed to have been in NZ for 54 years, which would make a time of arrival for her as 1863. She was listed as being 74, which puts a possible date of birth as 1843. However in 1865 when she married, she said she was 18 which indicates a birth for her in about 1847. I feel more inclined to go with her claim that she was 18, and that she was a possible new arrival to NZ. I have not been able to find her on a passenger list from Ireland to NZ so far.
John's death certificate says he was in NZ for 52 years, making a time of arrival as possibly 1864. This does tie in with information from a newspaper article I found saying that he had arrived in NZ from Australia about that time. His age in 1916 is given as 82, giving him a birth year of 1834 - but his own information is that he was 23 in 1865, making a birth date about 1842. Mary is listed as 78 years old at the time of his death (she was about 69/70)...... ah, families..... :)
So my line of inquiry now is trying to find a ship that John may have come to NZ on, from Australia. There are a few possibilities (none with ages that match!), so I need to look at the films of the records that exist. I have also tried to find Mary on a passenger list from Australia, but no luck there. This does not mean she didn't arrive from Australia..... not everyone was listed, records are not necessarily complete for shipping. Her name, too, with the variable spellings, does not make for easy searching....
John and Mary are my hardest relatives to research yet, but I live in hope. Cheers!
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You seem to have been very thorough familysleuth.
Such a shame that you have a combination of difficulties - common name (so very difficult to find a John White entering and active in Australia prior to going to NZ) - the Irish connection is very often very difficult to follow up - and Mary's variable surname .... :-\
Agree with you regarding their ages, and highly likely that Mary was underage. May be a fib, maybe not, that she did not have anyone to give consent to her marriage. ;) Lots of young girls travelled alone so she may not have had any family.
Have you asked for help with John in Australia - and his travel to NZ.
Although you have little or no contact with relatives in NZ, it might be valuable to bite the bullet and try to chase them up just in case they can fill in any gaps in your research. :-\
PS. I may be wrong, but I don't see the surname White as being typically Irish. Stranger things have happened though and it is possible he had English origins further back. A very rough guide: http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/ It would be interesting to see if there is any record of his arrival into Australia in the hope that it gives place of origin and his age. Have you asked on the Australia board?
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Hi Ruski - yes, I would say that a Northern Ireland 'White' family would eventually be Scottish or English. There are not too many White families in Derry... there are some, though. Down is also a possibility. Another researcher pointed out that if Mary arrived with a sister, then the 'no-one to give consent' could still stand, particularly if a sister was unmarried, as it was rare for women to give permission in these cases. I am inclined to keep it simple, and start with the premise that the closest correct ages for John and Mary are those they claimed at their marriage, but I will consider that Mary could have been between 16 - 18 and if the younger age, she may have arrived with sisters. One of his children (or maybe his widow) proposed John as a member of the Otago Early Settlers Association just after his death. I could find more in their records if I am lucky. Otherwise its passenger records for John which are the most likely to be found. I did a search for every 'Mary' who came to NZ between 1863 - 1865 from 'ships to NZ site' as well as familysearch and drew a blank, and a search of PapersPast didn't get anywhere either, looking for mainly Irish passenger ships. I have also communicated with the remaining family I have in NZ and alas, none are 'family history fanatics'.
Thanks for your replies, and one day someone will be able to shed light on the Chart for me. Cheers!
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Good luck with the search familysleuth.
At least by getting the names on rootschat anyone searching for the same names is likely to find this thread and be able to make contact with you.
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Here is the marriage index record from Presbyterian Archives
NELLEN Mary no age [x-her mark] WHITE John full age Tuesday 10 Oct 1865 Knox Church Dunedin
Knox Church has been holding its own Records. They may have records besides the original Marriage register
http://knoxchurch.net/index.html
Four Whites were married between 1899 and 1920 at Orepuki
WHITE Isabella 20y ROBINSON Thomas Augustus 22y 21 Mar 1902 Orepuki
WHITE Matthew 25y BENNETT Lizzie 22y 9 Feb 1905 Orepuki
WHITE Jessie 20y MOUAT James Hay 30y 25 May 1909 Orepuki
WHITE May 20y JENKS John 32y 22 Apr 1911 Orepuki
http://www.presbyterian.org.nz/archives/marriageregisters/orepukimarriages.htm
Who were the other seven children ?
If you have more details of more of your ancestors on this thread it is more likely to be picked up by relatives doing general searches on the web so James Hay MOUAT and John JENKS are more distinctive than WHITE. You know you have exhausted current Web sources when your general searches only point to your own postings!
Signal
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Thomas Augustus Robinson (Service number 23/584) and Isabella White (no children)
https://museum.timaru.govt.nz/explore/scroll/profile?id=2155
Orepuki Parish Baptisms 1899 to 1920
http://www.archives.presbyterian.org.nz/baptism/orepukibaptisms.htm
Bennett
Mouat
White
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Thanks everyone - thats the benefit of posting on rootschat - the query stays around a long time and who knows, someone may see it and be able to give some information!
I have part of the answer - a cousin of mine got in touch and told me that she believed that one of the descendants was also connected by marriage to.... another descendant. The common name is McInnis. She believes it is this family who commissioned the huge piece of work that is the 20 page descendant chart. so all I need to do is find them.... :) there is a tree online which has part of this information, but I am not sure that the researcher has been a party to the major chart. However 2015 is a new year, and I can but try! cheers
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Hello.
I find your post interesting.
May I suggest that you scan / photograph, or copy some how, a page of this tree and send it via the [PM] service to one of the senior people who have posted on your thread. The file, say a jpeg should not be larger than about 300 KB, but that would be enough detail for them to see it's form, and how it displays the information contained therein.
[To reduce the file size only a part page bit, showing layout, or the image put through a down sizeing image processing programme, to create an adjusted, lower resolution copy.]
There would most probably be privacy issues, [and copyright issues] that prevent you going public with the actual table.
All the proprietary tables have their own unique identifiers, and once recognized, that would allow the search to be focused on users, and their holdings in that system.
Just a thought.
May not work, because the only 20 page one I've got after 35 years of research, is my own generated Excel spreadsheet trying to tie in two big main branches starting in Scotland in the late 1790's but missing the all important OPR to confirm the link we know is out there, and the "family tree" with the most names on it [in the thousands] is a hand drawn circle radiating out through nine generations. So the above advise would not count.
- Alan.
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Thanks FF - that is certainly an idea. the document is called the 'Descendants Chart for John White' but it is not what I would call a 'chart' - it basically an Ahnentafel system. there is a lot of work in it because John and Mary had 13 children, 11 of whom had many children of their own. Its been done with a basic computer program, basic typewriter font, nothing fancy. But someone must have had to get a lot of paperwork together to do it. I may have to start with a bit of internet searching, starting with the common McInnis family. cheers.
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Hi FamilySleuth,
I am a descendant of John and Mary > Matthew > Robert (Bob) > Kaylyn > Julie > Me
My grandmother was party to finding information in regards to the White descendants, however she suffered a brain haemorrhage in 1993 so it stopped there. My mother picked it up, but only in terms of writing out what had been available and put into our files.
However I recently made a match with a woman on Facebook looking for these people, it was Mary's name that popped out for me. I haven't questioned her any closer in regards to the connection as I'm currently putting the tree (from the very long descendants chart 1997 version with George McCaw with an address written on the top) into FTM and I've struck a few inconsistencies that I'm trying to clarify or find where they fit in, or don't in some respects.
I have pictures of John and one of Mary, I've noticed that a few other people seem to have more photos of Mary floating around online.
In our information though, Mary travelled out on the Gala on October 29th 1864 It was on a scrap of paper in our box of files.
I hope that was some help.
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Dear etchsouth
thank you so much for your reply. I'm overjoyed about possible photos of John, and I would love to have a copy. Could you send me one? I can PM my email to you. Recently I was given a family photo of Mary Nellen with her daughter and granddaughter, is this the one you are referring to, or are there other photos? I stopped posting new photos on my own trees after having them wrongly attributed in some cases.
Perhaps I can be some help with any inconsistencies, or provide you with photos I have.
I'm also thrilled about the information re what ship Mary came out on - and it is so frustrating when we find just 'notes' and no provenance - nevertheless, something to check out. Best wishes, Louise
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Dear Etchsouth - I have further information (not sure if you have it too).
Mary travelled to Glasgow to sail on the Gala after seeing/knowing about an immigration scheme for females. The Gala appears to have had only female imigrants and the no. of passengers was 75.
best wishes, Louise