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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Westmeath => Topic started by: Lisajb on Monday 07 July 14 20:43 BST (UK)
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New here - trying to trace my husbands tree and getting nowhere fast!
Could anyone help me with this family
Michael Meagher/Maher (the surname seems to vary according to records), born either 1868 (according to 1911 census) or 1877 (according to marriage registration)
1911 census gives him with wife Mary (b 1886) and daughter Mary (who was known as Molly) at 20 Springfield, Mullingar
Michael died in 1951 and his wife and children came over to England. All but one child who is still living died in England
I have their marriage record - they married 30th April 1907 in the Chapel of Taughmon. Mary's maiden surname was Gray. Fathers given as John Maher and Michael Gray.
There were several children of this marriage - I think I may be missing a few but these are the ones I do have.
Mary (Molly) b1909 Mullingar, died 1980
Rose b1911 Mullingar, died 1989
Teresa b1916 Mullingar, died 1962
Michael (Mick) b1918, died 1999
Catherine/Kathleen, b1917-1920 (not quite sure!) cannot turn up a death registration for her but know it was in England
Bridget b1922, died 2003
Christopher b1926, died 2004
Annie (another puzzle, still living, have found her marriage in England, the only birth reg that fits in Ireland gives a birth date of 1930. I suppose technically possibly although her mother would have been 44 - but the birth reg gives MMN as O'Hara, possibly the child of Michael Meaghers brother, mother died in childbirth - just my random musing there.
And then I'm stuck. I found a birth reg for a Mary Gray in Mullingar for 1886, but a line was drawn though the box for fathers name. She may well have been illegitimate, but then I'm wondering where Michael Gray came from on her marriage record. I have found Michael M in the 1911 dog licence register. Cannot turn either John, Michael M or Michael Gray up in roughly the right place in the 1901 census. I found a possibility for Michael M in England in 1901, but place of birth is just given as Ireland.
Thanks for listening to my random musings. If anyone could help I would much appreciate it. I've spent hours trawling through birth records but have no idea which may be the right one. I imagine I will be buying quite a few photocopies!
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Welcome to RootsChat
There is a new index which has some of the children a bit more searching need for the rest I guess.
You need to sign in and do the whatits catch thing.
The good thing is it gives dates of birth, not all on the link are yours
http://www.rootschat.com/links/017z1/
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This is interesting the mothers name is O'Harah
Rose Meagher 4 July 1911
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/5b09d51839609
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Michael
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/8633271169423
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Both FamilySearch and Irish Genealogy give two entries for Mary Gray born 1886 Mullingar
The FamilySearch ones are on different pages 268 and 267
Irish Genealogy has two different Group Reg ID numbers (a new way of ordering)
Did you get both of these?
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Hello Lisa,
I notice on your tree that you have Michael in Burnley in 1901. I think that one is still there in 1911. :-\
Heywood
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There is a Michael Maher born 1873 in Granard which is one of the Reg Districts for Westmeath.
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/dcb7f910088691
This is the family in 1911, yes?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Westmeath/Mullingar_North_Urban/Springfield_or_Spittlefield__urban_/885520/
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Hello everyone
Thanks for all your input.
If the Michael Meagher from Burnley was still there in 1911, I think that one cannot be my chap - the Springfield family are definitely the right ones.
Interesting re Rose's MMN being O'Hara - I picked up a baptism record on Ancestry for her which gives father as Michael Meagher and mother Mary Grey.
Roll on lunchtime - more research to do!
Lisa
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Hi Sinann
I did attempt to order the two 1886 Mary Gray birth records using vol and page numbers, but only one was supplied - they said that one was a duplicate of the other. This gave her mothers name as Anne Gray, with a line drawn through the box for fathers name. It may well be her, but begs the question, where did the Michael Gray who's down as her father on the marriage record come from? Such a lot of puzzles!
My mother in law - Michael's grand daughter, Teresa's child - remembers being taken to Mullingar as a child (she was born in Kidderminster) and staying in the Springfield House. She said they'd walk to her grandmothers sisters house, but unfortunately cannot remember where that was.
I'm amazed by whats been found, its been such a help. Still have a long way to go, but thank you!
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Hi Lisa,
I wonder if this is a sibling of Mary's? William Gray has a mother Anne.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPT6-KRJ
There is a William in both censuses (I think mistranscribed as 90 yrs in 1901) but he has no family with him.
Re the 'O'Harah' mention. There is a marriage in 1889 where Anne Gray and John O'Harah are on the same page. :-\. They may not be a couple though as there are others.
Heywood
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Could his age in 1901 be 20,do you think, heywood? Written with a curl at the top of the 2? A William Gray appears in the 1911 census with the age given as 30, also in Taghmon.
Still having no luck finding Michael Meagher, Mary Gray or their possible fathers (or Mary's possible mother) in the 1901 census - they all seem to be either wrong place, wrong age or with wrong people. I'm a bit hampered by Michael's varying years of birth - 1876 according to his death registration, or about 1868 according to the 1911 census. Are the census records complete on line, or are there some bits missing?
I've found a birth for a Michael Meagher in Parsonstown in 1870, which is where Mary and Michael married. Might be worth a try, nothing to lose!
Last night my mother in law gave me a bundle of family photographs, so I least have some faces to put to names now.
I've attached a copy of the the birth registration for Mary Gray - a note has been added to say the other birth registration is a duplicate of this one.
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Yes, that's what I thought re William - would say it's the same person but sadly no help!
The address on the certificate is Farrancallan which is in Taghmon civil parish as is Taghmon townland.
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These names don't quite match the 1889 marriage ...
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Taghmon/Farrancallin/1784233/
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Just took a look again at Michael and Mary's marriage registration - witnesses were Rose O'Hara and William Gray.
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I think that's the right family and census then :)
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On that birth for Mary, her mother Anne doesn't appear to be married, formerly is crossed out. Michael is possibly made up.
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She might well have used her stepfather's first name with her birth surname.
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It looks as though poor young Michael was killed in WW1
M J O' Hara (http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/38356/O'HARA,%20M%20J)
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Stepfather?
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Stepfather?
She gave her father's name as Michael Gray on her marriage.
If that census is the right family, her stepfather is Michael O'Hara. The possible marriage though for Anne Gray shows John O'Harah :-\ Mary would have only been about 3 yrs old at that time.
However, the witnesses look to support all this theory.
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Stepfather?
She gave her father's name as Michael Gray on her marriage.
If that census is the right family, her stepfather is Michael O'Hara. The possible marriage though for Anne Gray shows John O'Harah :-\ Mary would have only been about 3 yrs old at that time.
However, the witnesses look to support all this theory.
Sorry I'm totally confused now, which census record?
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Maybe the reason we can't find John Maher in 1901 is because he died!
One of these could be him
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0185x/
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Oh I see now, getting the census links mixed up
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Stepfather?
She gave her father's name as Michael Gray on her marriage.
If that census is the right family, her stepfather is Michael O'Hara. The possible marriage though for Anne Gray shows John O'Harah :-\ Mary would have only been about 3 yrs old at that time.
However, the witnesses look to support all this theory.
Sorry I'm totally confused now, which census record?
Apologies - I gave links to the information but you would have to open them - I gave no names.
reply #9 - possible brother William Gray
possible marriage 1889 - Anne Gray and John O'Harah - the name O'Harah came up previously for Mary's daughter Rose.
reply #12 Ann and Michael O' Hara in 1901 census.
In 1911 (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Westmeath/Taghmon/Sheefin/886933/) daughter is Rose O'Hara.
She looks to be a witness at the marriage of Mary and Michael along with William Gray.
Hope this explains it.
Then I gave a link young Michael O'Hara as a WW1 Casualty.
heywood :)
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Yes, I imagine it would be understandable to make a name up - although it looks like a fairly small place where everyone probably knew everyone else's business.
So Mary's mother is very possibly Anne Grey, Michael may well not exist (unless as Sinann says he was her stepfather), there's a brother William and somehow the O'Hara's are connected possibly by a marriage to Anne?
Still wondering about the two girls - Annie and Rose, whose mothers maiden name is O'Hara, but living with Michael and Mary, and one of them - Rose - has a baptism record giving parents Michael Maher and Mary Grey. If I work out how to get a decent copy saved I'll post it.
I have the printed forms to obtain BMD certs, either by fax or post - is it possible to use the Group Registration ID somewhere on those, or is there another way of ordering using those? I've picked up a quarter, volume and page number for the various children of Michael and Mary, but the two potential births I am currently considering for Michael just have a year, volume and page but no quarter.
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Did we find Mary in 1901?
Mary isn't living with her mother and Michael O'Hara in 1901 so perhaps she is with her grand parents, her grandfather could be Michael Gray.
Stepfather idea was Heywood
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I think mother Anne married Mr O'Hara and is in 1901 and 1911 censuses and named on the Commonwealth War Graves certificate as mother of Michael J O'Hara.
(too many Michaels ::))
it is annoying that the marriage has John (if those possible spouses married) but the census is Michael. It does seem unusual to have two illegitimate children - as you say - a small place :-\
Maybe Anne was married/widowed but didn't show that on the birth certificate - although as Sinnan says, 'formerly' is crossed through.
As Mary would only be about 3 when her mother died, that may be why she used the name O'Hara on the birth certificates. I don't think we have her as Mary Gray in 1901 do we? She may be somewhere as Mary O'Hara.
There is a thread somewhere on the Irish boards which I think says you can use the Group Registration ID.
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GRO indexes (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=690609.0)
see reply #29 re accepting group registration ID.
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Michael and Mary's marriage certificate. It hasn't come out quite as well but definitely looks like William when you see it in the flesh, so to speak.
Thanks so much for all your help, everyone - you're all wonderful!
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Looks good :)
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I've not managed to find Mary in the 1901 census as Mary Gray
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There's a 15 year old Mary O'Hara as a servant with the Lovely family
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Westmeath/Knockdrin/Clonkill/1782759/
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Was just going to post her. :)
I have been trying to find where you mentioned Parsonstown - and eventually found that it was connected to Michael Meagher.
The Mary in 1901 is in Knockdrin which also covers Parsonstown.
However, I don't think we have any other links with Knockdrin - the O'Haras were in Taghmon parish.
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She's there as a servant though, so possibly a bit of travel involved. And her occupation was given as servant on the marriage registration.
My husbands just wandered through and muttered "the plot thickens!"
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The places named, Parsonstown , Farrancallin, Clonkill are all very close to each other so would see very possible.
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It would also make more sense of her sometimes using O'Hara on the children's birth Certs
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I've found a death for an Anne O'Hara in December quarter 1938, and giving a birth date of about 1849.
Her age seems to be transcribed as 51 on both 1901 and 1911 census. The death would fit with one, but not the other - obviously an error in transcription in one or the other (or both!). Michael's age is transcribed as 59 in 1911 and 42 in 1901.
I'm intending to order some certificates tonight, hopefully will clear up some questions - but fully expecting others to arise.
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Ages varied greatly -I don't suppose it was that important.
Good luck with the Certs. :)
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I've found a death for an Anne O'Hara in December quarter 1938, and giving a birth date of about 1849.
Her age seems to be transcribed as 51 on both 1901 and 1911 census. The death would fit with one, but not the other - obviously an error in transcription in one or the other (or both!). Michael's age is transcribed as 59 in 1911 and 42 in 1901.
I'm intending to order some certificates tonight, hopefully will clear up some questions - but fully expecting others to arise.
You do know you can see the Census originals?
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Yes, I've looked at them - the ages on the 1911 are very dark, almost as if they've been gone over several times, as is Michael's occupation of farm labourer. 1901 is very clear though.
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The marriage record research copy for Anne Gray and John/Michael O'Harah turned up today.
Originally the name of Michael Gray is written in, but this has been crossed through and John written above it.
I also got the birth records of Rose and Annie - the children of Michael Meagher and Mary Gray. I had some doubt about these as the MMN was given as O'Hara. For some reason then Mary gave her maiden name as O'Hara, but chose to use Gray for the rest of her children.
I am slightly puzzled about the informant for Annie's birth - snippet attached. Neighbour maybe, perhaps Mary was ill after the birth?
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posted twice so modified to get rid of it - couldn't see how to delete a post!
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The marriage certificate is ok - do you think?
I can see the name Clarke as informant - maybe a relative or even neighbour?
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Can I post an image of the whole thing, is that allowed? I know I did before with another cert and then thought "oops, maybe I shouldn't have done that!"
Michael Gray is back in the picture, he's down as Anne's father this time (a Michael Gray was also daughter Mary's father on her marriage record) but "died" is written after his name.
Their ages are given as 32 and 35, which varies a bit from the census.
Not sure how to show him (Anne's husband Michael, that is) in my tree - John, Michael, John/Michael - he's called himself Michael in both the 1901 and 1911 census.
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You can only post a snippet so that may be enough, although I can't work out if is a title or initials.
Maybe Anne's father was Michael. There are some possible deaths.
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I keep thinking Wm Clarke - William - but would a possibly unrelated male be present at a birth in 1930's Mullingar? The place of birth is given as Springfield. The family were living at 20 Springfield Cottages in the 1911 census