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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Emma08 on Tuesday 08 July 14 06:11 BST (UK)
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Looking for parent or sibling information for Mary Jane Bissett.
Born abt 1867 in Dublin, Ireland.
Her father's name was John Bissett. No further family information.
She may have been born earlier or later than 1867 - but this is the most accurate date I have.
She first married a Henry Leonard Graham, who was in the military, and born in England. There is a marriage certificate for them in 1885 in Dublin, and in 1886 in Brighton, England.
Henry and Mary later lived in India and had 4 sons. Her first husband died in 1893.
Mary then married for a second time - to a Henry Stewart. Marriage took place in India in 1894 (She used a different middle name, stating her name as being "Mary Pauline Bissett"). Witnesses to the marriage were John and Margaret McDonagh.
Henry Stewart's father was Walter Stewart. Don't know their nationality. Assume this Henry was also in the military.
The family returned to England around 1900.
She had 3 children with Henry Stewart - 2 of which were born in India - but had their births registered in Ireland.
I'd appreciate any help on how to trace where Mary lived between her birth and her first marriage, and her parents/siblings names.....
Finding it difficult to get any info at all. Not sure where else to look...
Also, if her children with her second husband were born in India, but the births were registered in Ireland, does this mean that her second husband was also from Ireland?
Thank you!
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Hi
The British India Collection shows baptisms for 1) Maria Pearl and 2)Henry Arthur Stewart. Father Henry Stewart is recorded as Farrier Sergt. 5th Irish Lancers. On Maria's mother is recorded as Mary but on Henry Arthur's she is Mary_Pauline.
A tree on Ancestry has her name as Mary Jane Pauline Bisset. Chris Patons blog "British Genes" might provide ideas for searching for Irish records.
William
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Thank you very much for that William. It gives me a few clues.
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Hi Emma
Did you actually get the Dublin marriage certificate ?
It's unusual for there to be TWO marriages for the same couple !
Where did you get that her father's name was JOHN and that her birthplace was DUBLIN ?
Tara
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Hi Tara,
Her birthplace of Dublin comes from the 1901 and 1911 UK census. She is living in the Aldershot area with her children.
Her father's name of John came from the marriage certificate of her second marriage to Henry Stewart in India in 1894.
Yes I thought it was unusual for there to be 2 marriage records for the same people. Especially a year apart.
On ancestry there are two records from her first marriage to Henry Leonard Graham. One is registered in Dublin south in 1885 and one record is from 1886 registered in Brighton England.
She also registered 2 of her childens births in Dublin even though they were born in India. Maybe this is normal practice but I don't know?
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Hi There
Just one more question HA !
What was given as her father's occupation ?
Tara
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:)
I don't know. I've only accessed the certificate online. Don't have a copy of it but will do. So I will check. There is no occupation given online.
Thanks for your replies Tara.
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Yes, I think you need to get some ACTUAL paperwork now.
It's the only way to get more leads.
If you get the 1885 Irish one it will give her father's occupation and her address at the time of her marriage.
Both these should give good leads.
The reason why I would like a father's occupation is that give her marrying military men it's possible that her father was also a military man.
This COULD mean that she may have been born in Dublin but not necessarily have lived there - the family may have moved around as is the norm for military families.
There were 2 Bissett families in and around the Moss St. area of Dublin in the time period that you are talking about - again though you would need the Irish marriage cert to see if there is a connection.
There was also a military John Bissett whom had a daughter in Dublin - another possible lead should you get more info !
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/322d960285793
Do you know what religion Mary was ?
Tara
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Yes she was Catholic.
Yes I am getting a couple of certificate copies sent to me. I just live far away.... But with Mary I think I've gone as far as I can online.
Thanks :)
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One more thing. I now have a copy of some paperwork that shows Mary had a sister. Her name was Edith J.
She married someone with the surname Menelly before 1900. That's the only info I have on the sister so far
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Was Edith born in Ireland ?
Did she marry in Ireland ?
Tara
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This one is interesting
Name: Edith Mary Bissett
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 19 Mar 1881
Birth Place: Railway Terrace, Tyrone, Ireland
Father's Name: John Bissett
Mother's name: Margaret Drought Bissett
Tara
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I don't know. I'll have to look into that. All I have is her name and signature on some paperwork relating to Mary. It lists her as Mary's sister.
She was in England at the time of the signing in 1900.
I didn't know she existed until now. So will try to find out more on her.
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Yes that one is interesting Tara.....
Also I know the names of the witnesses on Mary's second marriage to Henry Stewart. They were John and Margaret McDonagh.
The marriage took place in India. So will look into those witness names too
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Here is a good possibility for Mary !
Name: Bassett
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 31 Jul 1867
Birth Place: Dublin, Dublin, Ireland
Father's Name: John Bassett
Mother's name: Eliza Graham
Tara
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Sorry
I should have said that I am looking at the surname BASSETT too (just in case) !
Tara
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Yes I saw this one just last night Tara and thought it could be possible too.... I think I need to find her father's occupation on the marriage certificate and that might help.
Thanks to the other poster above for the link to the two marriages. Will have a look at that as well.
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This link has a possible explanation for the two marriages - 1885 and 1886.
there are one or two threads on Rootschat also.
The R.I.C. had to wait seven years after joining before they were allowed marry, and some couldn't wait - but had to "marry again" when the seven years was up.
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Ah.... That would make sense. Thanks for the info. :)
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More information recently discovered on Mary Jane....
According to her first marriage certificate in 1886 her father was definitely John Bissett - and was a Carpenter.
He is listed as "deceased" on the certificate
I am assuming he was Irish because Mary Jane always listed her nationality as Irish and registered her overseas marriages and overseas children's births in Ireland.
Am I correct in thinking there are no census documents for Ireland in the mid-late 1800s?
How else could I find a John Bissett who was a Carpenter living in Dublin around 1860/1870/1880.... Died before 1886.
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Do you have a Dublin address from Mary Janes marriage certificate,it may help to locate the death/burial of her father.
Glasnevin Trust,Genealogy has three likely candidates which can be viewed on line for a fee of 3euro each.
also remember ages at death are not always accurate.
John Bisitt age 68 in 1873 (as spelt)
John Bissett age 65 in 1876
John Bissett age 28 in 1883
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The marriage certificate I have is an English one because she married her first husband twice. Once in Dublin and then a year later in England. This was apparently to do with some time restriction on military marriages.
Can I get hold of a copy of the marriage certificate from Dublin? How would I do this?
That would probably help.
I think her father John Bissett died between 1874 and 1886 because I think Mary Jane had a younger sibling born in the early 1870s....
But that, and his occupation of carpenter is all I have....
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More information recently discovered on Mary Jane....
According to her first marriage certificate in 1886 her father was definitely John Bissett - and was a Carpenter.
He is listed as "deceased" on the certificate
I am assuming he was Irish because Mary Jane always listed her nationality as Irish and registered her overseas marriages and overseas children's births in Ireland.
Am I correct in thinking there are no census documents for Ireland in the mid-late 1800s?
How else could I find a John Bissett who was a Carpenter living in Dublin around 1860/1870/1880.... Died before 1886.
Re census documents Ireland mid-late 1800s the following link sadly explains
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/history.html
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Of the 3 John Bissetts listed above it couldn't be the one who was 28 when he died because Mary Jane was born around 1867.... So that narrows it down
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=497188.0
link about Dublin directories
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=403816.0
link from Dublin resources board re census
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There was a John Bissett, carpenter in Balbriggan in 1862
http://www.libraryireland.com/articles/BalbrigganThom1862/
Also mentioned in 1858 and 1868 directories, and in Dublin court records in 1865
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Searching on rootsireland.ie for Bissett baptisms with a father John in Co Dublin in the 1860's brings up the following list:
John 1860
Maria Joanna 1862
Philip 1864
Michael 1865
Hellenora 1867
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Thanks so much for those links Shaun....
I think there's a chance the Balbriggan carpenter could be John...
I wonder if the Maria Joanna is Mary Jane?
Mary Jane had a daughter, Mary Pearl, who was actually christened Maria Pearl...
Interesting.
I had thought Mary Jane was born later - 1867 - but maybe not....
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I looked at the Maria Joanna record - and she was baptised in Balbriggan in 1862 - which fits with the John Bissett carpenter in Balbriggan too....
I had thought Mary Jane was born closer to 1867 - as her marriage certificates and future UK census' state a later birth date (ranging from 1866 to 1870)...
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Family Search births 1620/1881
Shows
Philip Bissett 6 Jan 1864
Michael Bissett 3 Oct 1865 as children of John Bissett and Catherine Byrne.
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Stark County Ohio marriage 18 Sep 1901
Ella Christena Bissett age 26? born Dublin 1875 dtr of John Bissett and Catherine Byrne
Married
James Boylan born Ireland son of James Boylan and Catherine Fox
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Looks like Michael Bissett emigrated to the US circa 1887 and settled in Canton City, Stark, Ohio where he died in 1950.
And as Dathai has just posted there was also an Ella Christina Bissett who named the same parents (John Bissett & Catherine Byrne) when she married in Canton Ohio in 1901. She said she was 26 but could this be "Hellenora" who would have been 33? https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-17962-4817-12
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Yes ShaunJ that was why i put the ? after Ella's age,and i think they were both telling porkie pies about their ages as James seems to have been born 1867 in Cavan,though his death says born 1872.
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Well done ShaunJ i think you've cracked it.
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I think you have!
I did notice those other two births.... Just trying to check if it's the right family. There's a Byrne/Bissett connection a generation later in the family too.... Coincidence? Or did the two families know each other this far back. Interesting
Thanks heaps for the help!
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One more thing that's a bit confusing....
We thought that Mary Jane Bissett had a sister named Edith. The reason we thought this is because there is a document from 1900 that has been signed by Mary Jane and by an "Edith J Menelly" who is stated as being Mary Jane's sister. The document was signed near London.
If Mary did have a sister named Edith, then I can't find any trace of her. There are no Edith Bissetts born in Ireland or overseas between 1860 and 1890...
There don't appear to be any Bissett/Menelly marriage records either.
So.... Could Edith be using a different first name for some reason?
The names in this family do alter slightly from document to document.
For example: Mary Jane or "Maria joanna" as she may have been, changes her name to "Mary Pauline" on all documents after 1894.... But it's definitely the same person.
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Edith Jane Menelly was a domestic servant in Chertsey in the 1901 census. Married gardener Frederick William Chapman in 1902. Born Knighstbridge circa 1874. Daughter of William John Menelly, a valet.
A William John Menelly married (I think) Catherine Stewart in London in 1871 - is it a Stewart connection perhaps...sisters in law?
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That's great info Shaun!! I had been searching incorrectly for her. The location of her in 1901 definitely fits....because the paperwork that contains Edith's signiture is for Mary's son to attend a school in Chertsey! Brilliant.
And yes possible Stewart connection instead.
Thanks so much.
The "sister" link had been confusing me for a while.... It didn't seem to fit with the other info.
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Just to confirm, William John Menelly, a draper of King Street, married widow Catherine Stewart also of King Street, at St George Hanover Square on June 7th 1871. Her father was a Walter Bermingham, a farrier, his was Walter Menelly, a draper.
Catherine Menelly died in 1885. I can't see them in the 1881 census. Children Edith and sister Elizabeth are boarders in Great Leighs, Essex.
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I was just having a look at that Shaun....
I found the sisters Edith and Elizabeth as boarders...
So Catherine's father was named Walter?
That's really interesting because, the Henry Stewart, who was Mary Jane's second husband, was born around 1867, was a Farrier Sergeant, and had a father named Walter Stewart..... Seems there might be a connection.....
Do you know where Catherine was born? I'm struggling to find her on census'.
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But if Catherine was a widow....then Stewart was her married name......
I'm struggling to connect this
The Farrier connection is interesting though....
I'll see if I can find Catherine's first husband
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Also, if Catherine was a widow in 1871 and then died in 1885....I wonder how old she was?
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I assumed that Catherine was Henry's mother. I haven't looked for her before 1881 as yet...
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Catherine Menelly was 42 when she died in Chelsea in 1885.
William John Menelly was remarried in 1893 to a Catherine Pearson in Steyning RD.
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Correction to an earlier post - William John Menelly's father was William, not Walter, Menelly per the 1871 marriage detail
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Ok. Well that makes her the right age to be Henry's mother. And it explains why I could still find William married to a Catherine in 1911.
I found a Catherine Bermingham with father Walter born in Durham.... Found her on the 1851 and 1861 census but don't know if it's the right Catherine.
Henry Stewart lists his father as being "Walter Stewart" on his marriage certificate in India in 1894. But there is no occupation listed for Walter.
I also can't find a marriage record for Catherine and a Stewart.
But because Mary Jane listed Edith Menelly as her sister.... There must be a family link somewhere.
Henry Stewart died in 1900 and the document with Edith's signiture as the sister was signed 2 months after his death....
I also can't find Edith Menelly in the 1911 census. Or her husband.
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In the 1871 census there's a young widow named Catherine Stewart aged 29 (? the second digit is obscured by a census mark) who is a nurse in the household of Lady Ann Beckett at 11 Stratford Place, which is a short walk from Hanover Square. Her birthplace is stated to be New York.
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Thanks Shaun. I can see her on that census..... and there is definitely a Catherine Birmingham born in New York about 1847 with a father Walter.......
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Hi Emma, I've only just come across this thread. I have extensive records on Irish Bissetts and might be able to help. I have a no of Marys born 1868/69 incl a Mary Jane born in Dublin in 1869 (but father William). I see the 1885 marriage and I have a copy of the cert but don't have much more on this family. Let me know how much further you got and I'll review what I have and see if we can piece anything further together.
John Bissett
Dublin, Ireland
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Hi John,
Thanks for your reply.
In the end I did find Mary, she was actually born in Balbriggan in 1862... There is a baptism record for her (Maria Joanna on the Catholic record).
She had a younger sister Eleanor/Ella and brothers Michael, Philip and John.
Michael emigrated to America, Philip also went to America and died as a young man over there, Ella also went to America and had a family over there.
John Bissett (eldest brother) I found on a census in 1901 living in Castlereagh with his wife and children.
Mary Jane's parents were John Bissett (carpenter) and Catherine Byrne.
Both confirmed on the US marriage certificates of Mary's siblings and on baptism records.
I still don't know where the "Pauline" comes from in Mary's name or why she suddenly started to use it.
I also don't know a lot about her life after she returned from India to the UK in the early 1900s, nor have I been able to find a will for her.
I also don't know anything about her life from childhood to her first marriage...
Any information you have would be gratefully received.
Not just about Mary but any of her siblings or parents.
And especially her husbands. They are a big mystery/brick wall for me.
Thank you!
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OK Emma, I have some info on this family, I grew up not far from Balbriggan.
1. There were 7 Siblings in Mary Janes family
2. John Bissett was Catherine Byrnes 2nd husband
3. Johns father was also John Bissett and his mother Mary Clarke (or Cleary)
4. John had 5 siblings
5. If there is a connection with Castlereagh, that opens up a possible connection to a very large family tree I have so I'd be interested in knowing how you made the connection?
I'm happy to share everything I have if you'd like to contact me on (*)
John
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Fantastic! Thank you so much. Will email you now
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I have sent you an email now. Thanks 😊
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Hi, I just wanted to add a further note to back up the Balbriggan connection. My great grandfather was from Balbriggan too (Buchanan) born 1860s and I have just found a piece of an old envelope in my grandmother papers this evening from Michael Bissett who was Mary Janes brother. The return address was Michael Bissett 5th street Canton Ohio. The letter was post marked Feb 4th 1937. I was just trying to figure out the connection between the two men to see if he was a relation when I came across this old thread. I looked into it and I don't see any connection between the two families so it looks like they may have grown up together in the town and kept in touch. Hope this is of interest :)