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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: Lisajb on Tuesday 22 July 14 20:41 BST (UK)
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Could anyone make a guess as to this name? I thought it was Rees Thomas but would appreciate a second opinion.
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Its a bit small, but I would say most like Rees.
Other things it might be include Miles, or Silas?
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The daughter (whose marriage certificate this is) gives her place of birth as Carmarthen on various English census (she married in Bristol and stayed there afterwards), which made me originally think the father was Rees, but every time I look at it I think "I'm really not sure!"
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Could well be Rees, but the only thing I can say for sure is that it ends in es ;D
Can you not find him on censuses with his daughter?
Jan ;)
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No luck at all, I'm afraid Jan, with the census. I have found her in 1871, 1881 and 1891, the first two with husband and the last as a widow, giving place of birth Carmarthenshire, Gloucestershire and Carmarthenshire respectively, but cannot seem to find her prior to her marriage in 1841, 51 or 61.
I found a possible baptism on familysearch for a Harriet Thomas or Lewis, father Rees Thomas and mother Mary Lewis in December 1831, but even using the family members details as well, I cannot find them, in either England or Wales. Probably doing it wrong!
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Can you scan it to a higher resolution to make the image more legible?
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It could be Rees, but the R is a bit odd.
I don't suppose this girl had any siblings whose marriage certificates you could purchase to see if father's name is any clearer?
Did you purchase this marriage certificate from the GRO? If so I believe you can also purchase the certificate from the local register offices - these are the originals whereas the GRO are copies, so filled in by someone else. If she married in Bristol you might have to ask for help working out where to request a copy of the original certificate (which should also contain the signatures or marks of the happy couple and witnesses). (hope I'm not leading you up the garden path with this advice - I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. ;))
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Will have a go at scanning it at a higher res later, not entirely confident about using my scanner though!
I've not looked for siblings so far, there are probably hundreds of Thomas births in Carmarthenshire in that time frame. Still, if that's what it takes...
The cert did come from the GRO. The marriage took place in the Parish Church, Parish of St Nicholas, Bristol, in 1865, if anyone can point me in the right direction?
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Are there anymore capital R's on the cert to compare?
The 1831 Carmarthen St Peter's baptism image has the extra info following info
Harriet daughter of Rees Thomas St Ishmael Farmer by Mary Lewis Lammas St Spinster
Does that match with his occupation on the marriage cert?
I wonder if he and Mary did marry?
Jan ;)
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No - that says he's a "Ship-carpenter"!
There's a possible other R as the initial of the officiating cleric. I'm going to try scanning again now.
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OK this is 350 dpi resolution - looks like I can go higher if needed.
The initial letter looks more like the S of ship carpenter than the R which I think is the vicar's initial.
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I've searched for Welsh male names ending in -es and the best I can do is either Idris or Idres.
I've found on ancestry a baptism for a Harriet Thomas on 7th March 1830, in Carmarthen, Lammas Street meeting house, parents Thos. Thomas and Jane, but I cannot get the image to load.
Why are my ancestors so difficult ::) ???
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OK this is 350 dpi resolution - looks like I can go higher if needed.
The initial letter looks more like the S of ship carpenter than the R which I think is the vicar's initial.
This image is 55kb ,Rootschat will allow pics up to 500kb to be posted.
About 250kb is a good size to try and decipher something from ;D
Carol
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The cert did come from the GRO. The marriage took place in the Parish Church, Parish of St Nicholas, Bristol, in 1865, if anyone can point me in the right direction?
Sorry I can't help with this, why start a new thread on the Gloucestershire board for specific help about how to obtain an original from the local record office. (give a link to this thread to give some background information)
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I just found this and think it might be the place to contact:
http://www.bristol.gov.uk/page/births-deaths-and-marriages/family-history-and-historical-records
Do not give them the GRO reference numbers such as volume and page numbers because local offices use a different system. You might like to check to see if the father's surname is readable (do not suggest the name might be Rees so you don't sway their interpretation). Tell them you have the GRO copy but cannot read the surname and ask if the certificate would be a copy of the original signatures. (I would not want you to purchase exactly the same certificate if I have got this all wrong).
I see some records were destroyed - lets hope your certificate is not one of them.
Good luck if you try to obtain a new certificate - let us know how you get on. :)
PS. I just had a thought. You are trying to work out what the surname of the father of the bride is. Wouldn't his surname be the same as hers? :-\ Or am I missing something here? ;)
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I thought it was his Christian name Ruskie ::)
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There's a list of Welsh boys' names here http://www.welshboysnames.co.uk/
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Ilies?
A surname used as a first name or perhaps a mispelling/mishearing of Elias?
I don't think it's Rees comparing R's
Jan ;)
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I thought it was his Christian name Ruskie ::)
Oops, of course it is, just ignore me lisa. :-[
(Was distracted when I wrote that ..... that's my excuse anyway)
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No worries Ruskie! ;D
It seems to be possible to order the certificate online from Bristol Register Office, but as suggested I will give them a call first - as you say, nothing will be achieved if its the same as the one I already have.
Will have another go at scanning again tonight - at work at the moment
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Hi Lisa
I'm sure it is Rees but, as others have said, it is still ever so small.
Can you give details of Harriet's marriage (date and to whom). I assume she was born circa 1831 from what you said earlier. If not what is her approx DofB, please. Maybe we can try to find more info that way.
Gadget
(I'm Welsh ;D )
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It seems to be possible to order the certificate online from Bristol Register Office, but as suggested I will give them a call first - as you say, nothing will be achieved if its the same as the one I already have.
What would be best would be the original entry from the parish records
http://archives.bristol.gov.uk/dserve/
rather than a certificate from the register office as this is still a copy (Apologies if you meant Records Office when you said Register Office)
Jan ;)
Looking yet again I'm still not convinced it is Rees as the R for the vicar's initial looks quite different. How would Elias sound in a Welsh accent Gadget? Could it end up being written Ilies? :-\
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Looking yet again I'm still not convinced it is Rees as the R for the vicar's initial looks quite different. How would Elias sound in a Welsh accent Gadget? Could it end up being written Ilies? :-\
Welsh is phonetic, Jan, so it would sound Elias.. I'm still voting for Rees.
If you enlarge the second snip, the vicar's initial is a B and the top loop is a wider, blousier (? spelling :-X ) version of the one in the father's name - which then has a tail. Well, that's my take on it.
If we knew more about ages/dates, we could probably find something about him/her.
Gadget
PS - A thought that should be considered (it happened in my family a couple of times) ~ If she was illegitimate, she might not have known her father and gave the name of a close relative (grandfather, etc.) . Also, her mother might have married after her birth and she could have stayed with her, under anotehr name or even with relatives.W have to consider all the options.
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Evening all!
Apologies for not getting back sooner - just got home from work!
OK then, names and dates!
Harriett Thomas married William Harvey (both of full age according to cert) on October 10th 1865, he a bachelor and she a spinster.
I have found her on the 1871, '81 and '91 census (with William and children in the first two, and as a widow with children in the last). I haven't managed to find her at all in the '41, '51 or '61 census.
The mysterious Mr Thomas, her father (at least hopefully!) was apparently a Ship Carpenter at the time of her marriage.
If anyone wants any more details, let me know! Off to scan the certificate again now.
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What age and place of birth does she give in 1871/81/91?
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In 71 her age is given as 40 - place of birth Wales Carmarthen
In 81 age given as 50 - place of birth St George, Gloucestershire (St George is in Bristol)
In 91 age given as 60 - place of birth is given as Carmarthenshire
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This is 1200 dpi res - they all seem to look the same to me!
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This is 1200 dpi res - they all seem to look the same to me!
It IS the same as it's still only 54 kb ;D
In fact it's smaller than the previous one ;D
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I'm obviously not doing this properly! Be right back, having a google for some how to do it instructions!
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fingers crossed....
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Well done Lisa :)
I still reckon the vicar's initial is an R - it doesn't look like the B in Banns and the supposed R in the father's name doesn't look like the vicar's initial but maybe it is just erratic writing! You really do need that original entry from the Parish Records to be sure.
As you can't find Harriet in earlier censuses I agree with Gadget that she may be illegitimate or mum remarried.
Jan ;)
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This might be worth following up:
1841
HO107/1385/2/8/9
Lansant/Llansaint, St Ishmael
David Thomas, 65, shoemaker
Elizabeth, 69
Hariet, 12, (Lodger crossed out)
All b. county
1851
HO107/2472/336/11
Llansaint
Elizabeth Thomas, wid, 78, Cordwainer wife parish relief, b. Llanstephan
Harriet Thomas, nephew!, 22 (in female col), gathering coals, b. Pembrey
Also ~ https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KCLX-N3S (need to go to FindMyPast for details)
Gadget
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Thanks Gadget - will take a look at those
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I have a Welsh ancestor who is causing me a bit (well, a lot!) of trouble.
I have her marriage certificate, she married in Bristol, England in 1865. Her age as given on the 1871 census onwards would give her a birth year of 1831 and place of birth Carmarthen. I have a possible match for her in the 1861 census, but have so far been unsuccessful with both the 1841 and 1851 in either Wales or England.
My first thought on seeing the certificate for her fathers name was Rees Thomas. I've come to doubt that a bit and am no longer so sure.
Edit: link to a previous thread re the fathers name http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=693334.0
I have found a potential baptism for her on familysearch.org but this has her down as Harriet Thomas or Lewis. Would this suggest that her parents were not married?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X1TW-1B4
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Hi Lisa
That link certainly fits with the marriage cert, where her father was given as Rees Thomas.
Gadget
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I have found a potential baptism for her on familysearch.org but this has her down as Harriet Thomas or Lewis. Would this suggest that her parents were not married?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X1TW-1B4
I would say yes, these two parents were probably not married.
But I have emailed registrar's offices with a message like this: "I have a marriage cert from the GRO for x to y on such and such a date at such and such a church. I am unable to read the father's Christian name and would be grateful if you could tell me what it says on your copy of the certificate." Attach a scan of the cert you have to show you're not trying to cheat, enclose your phone number and lots of pleases and thank yous. I have had a very satisfactory response on at least two occasions. If that does fail though, you could try emailing Bristol record office with the same sort of message and ask them to check the marriage in the parish records.
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The christening says
Rees Thomas - Farmer
Mary Lewis - spinster
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Saw that record when l was helping with the earlier thread back in July, Rosie. The problem is that he's down as a ship's carpenter on the marriage cert :-\
It could be him and she might not have known his occupation or he changed his occupation or it's not the correct one or.........................
Gadget
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Thanks Gadget ;D
Rosie
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A copy of Harriet's original baptism record is shown on FMY and the parents are shown with separate surnames.
Birth: 8 Dec. 1831
Baptised: 23 Dec. 1831
Father: Rees Thomas (Farmer) from St Ishmael (a community about 12 miles south of Carmarthen)
Mother: Mary Lewis (Spinster) from Lammas Street, Carmarthen
They are the only couple on the page that has both surnames all the others show one surname. I would suggest that they were not married also two different addresses adds to it.
Hope this helps?
100% Gog
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It's added something to the mix - will be on FindMyPast tonight I think!
I first started my tree over 10 years ago, got back to it earlier year after a few years off - and the three brick walls I had back then, of which this lady is one, are still brick walls!
I have so little to go on for her, a place of birth, an approximate date, a fathers name and occupation which may or may not be accurate (bit of a jump from farmer to ships carpenter!) - and that's about it.
Thanks everyone for all your help - will review tonight at home.
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I just noticed an error in my previous reply.....should be FindMyPast not FMY :)
So the baptism record was found on FindMyPast!
100% Gog
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Well, there's a Mary Lewis living in Lammas Street in the 1841 census, with a birth year of 1816, but no Harriet with her ??? Is this Mary the same one as in the baptism of Harriet in 1831?
And there's a Harriet Thomas b 1829 living with a David and Elizabeth Thomas at Lansaint Gwenmount, St Ishmael in the 1841 census - grandparents maybe?
I have also found baptism details for a Rees Thomas in Jul 1824 at Llandingat, Carmarthenshire - with parents David Thomas and Elizabeth - EDIT forget this, assuming he was baptised as an infant, he'd have been only 7 when Harriet was born!
My attempts at spelling the Welsh place names are probably awful, I do apologise. Scribbled the first one down in a rush and then struggled to read it back.
any thoughts anyone?
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Gadget found the 1841 census entry on my previous thread, A*, bless 'em, have her name as Herbert!
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Gadget found the 1841 census entry on my previous thread, A*, bless 'em, have Harriet's name as Herbert!
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Gadget found the 1841 census entry on my previous thread, A*, bless 'em, have her name as Herbert!
;D ;D ;D
I think quite a lot of what has been said on this thread is also on the other thread, Lisa. It might be worth us all reviewing those pages.
There are a few Mary Lewis bpt 1811-1816. Have you followed the one that you found to 1851 - or maybe a marriage?
Gadget
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So far I've not tried tracing Mary on the census - it's Harriet I've followed on the census.
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So far I've not tried tracing Mary on the census - it's Harriet I've followed on the census.
Well, there's a Mary Lewis living in Lammas Street in the 1841 census, with a birth year of 1816, but no Harriet with her ??? Is this Mary the same one as in the baptism of Harriet in 1831?
Well, you did mention Mary here.
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I do apologise - Harriet's baptism that was found earlier gave Lammas Street as Mary's address. I've not looked for her in any other census thus far.
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There's a marriage for Mary Lewis, Lammas Street in 1844. She married a Thomas Dawson. Carmarthen
Gadget
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See 1851
Cardiff - HO107/2455/546/44
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I have just merged the two threads together so we can review all the information together.
Sarah :)
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Thanks Sarah