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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Stirlingshire => Topic started by: Forfarian on Monday 28 July 14 10:28 BST (UK)
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Robert Hogg was the father of an illegitimate son, Peter, by Janet Finlayson in 1794 in Larbert. The Kirk Session records refer to him as 'Robert Hog(g), a married man, farmer in Dunipace'.
My mother told me that Robert Hogg was related to James Hogg, the 'Ettrick Shepherd'. I have heard the same story from a distant cousin. We are descended from Peter Hogg by his first wife Janet Yorkston. The distant cousin is descended from Peter Hogg by his second wife Margaret Russell, whom he married in 1826. So the story must go back at least 150 years.
There is also a suggestion that the original Hogg came from the Borders to Larbert to work at the Carron Iron Works, which started production in 1760. This came from the obituary of Peter's grandson Thomas, who died in 1934: "Mr Hogg's family had a long connection with the Larbert area and the iron-foundry trade: one of his family came to Carron Co from Selkirk in 1765, and connection has been maintained with the area and the trade ever since." I have had a look at the staff records of the Carron Iron Works, but found nothing useful so far.
If so, how did he come to be a farmer? Or was the farmer his son? How does this relate to the statement that the family had maintained a connection with the (iron) trade, if Robert was a farmer?
On the other hand, a Robert Hogg and Jean Allan had a son Robert in Larbert, baptised 25 March 1758. This is before the establishment of the Carron Iron Works, and to complicate things further, they appear to have had a son born in Edinburgh in 1773, where Robert was a carter. So is this Robert Hog(g) relevant, or is he a red herring?
Any suggestions as to how I might establish the identity of 'Robert Hogg, married man, farmer in Dunipace'?
Previous related topic http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=101484 - now trying to home in on Robert Hog(g).
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Have you checked www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/historical-tax-rolls/farm-horse-tax-rolls-1797-1798/?id=
Volumes 5 and 12 make a reference to Dunipace. The timing is good given the approx birth year of Peter.
Monica
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Have you checked
Thanks, Monica, yes, I have. However it told me nothing more as it simply lists Robert Hogg, Dunnipace. No farm name and certainly nothing to help with his origins.
(There's no approx about Peter's birth year. His arrival in the world is exhaustively recorded.)
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Forfarian, we seem to be of two minds with this one. I've been looking at the Hogg's for the last couple of days and still getting nowhere. Even tried overseas, but came up blank.
I might get a sub for ScotlandsPlaces and see if there is anything other than the horse tax.
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Hi Lenagh
This is listing of some of the Tax databases on ScotlandsPlaces:
http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/historical-tax-rolls
Monica :)
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Thinking about Janet Finlayson. You have mentioned you have Peter's son James very likely staying with grandmother Janet in 1841, and possibly Janet's brother George in the household too. Just for reference here, from 1841:
George Finlayson 50 grinder
Janet Finlayson 60
James Hogg 20
Address: Larbert V(illage?)
Am I right in thinking Peter Hogg was also a grinder by trade? From 1841, again just for reference here for background:
Peter Hogg 40 grinder
Margt Hogg 40
John Hogg 19
Peter Hogg 11
George Hogg 1
Address: Larbert V
Have you tried to follow up on this household from 1841, in particular Malcolm and whether he shows in later years?:
Malcolm Finlayson 60 grinder
Janet Finlayson 35
Robt Finlayson 15 Smith
Chas Pitchpatrick 12
Robt Finlayson 3
Address: Larbert V
There is also a further household in the Village with a James F., 30 and young family, this James is also a grinder by trade.....and a futher entry in the Village, for a younger George F., also a grinder...
Guesses, guesses, looks like the grinding trade may have run through the Finlayson family. Not surprising given the proximity to the Iron Works really. The eldest Finlayson males I can see in 1841 in the Village of Lambert, George and Malcolm we have above. I am thinking the younger Finlayson men, such as James and George for examples and the next generation down.
Monica
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Another Finlayson who didn't make it past 1855 :-\
From 1851, all born Larbert:
Malcolm Finlayson 81 Retired Grinder
Janet Finlayson 51 daughter
Robert Finlayson 13 grandson
Address: Grinding Mill, Larbert
Monica
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Have you tried to follow up on this household from 1841, in particular Malcolm and whether he shows in later years?:
Another Finlayson who didn't make it past 1855 :-\
Malcolm Finlayson 81 Retired Grinder
Yes, I have that census too. He could well be a brother of 'our' Janet, but it's finding the evidence that's the prob.... I mean the challenge. The name Malcolm does run through the inlayson generations.
This one must be the one married to Elizabeth Donaldson, whose daughter Janet was baptised in 1798. However this listing in the IGI is 'community contributed' so not to be taken at face value. There is a 'community indexed' listing of a son Robert to Malcolm F and Elizabeth Donaldson in 1821, which does make me question the 1798 - 23 years is quite a big gap!
There is a Janet Finlayson, baptised 9 June 1770 in Stirling, parents Malcolm Finlayson and Jean Morrison. This couple had several other children, but no George or Malcolm is listed in the IGI, and if Janet was born in 1770, she would have been 71, not 60, on the date of the 1841 census. Also Stirling isn't Larbert.
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The Caledonian Mercury for 17th February 1791 lists the farmers awarded a premium by the Commissioners and Trustees for Fisheries, Manufactures, and Improvements in Scotland for growing flax. "Robert Hogg Dunapace" in the parish of "Dunapace" received £1 16s 6d. £1 was awarded for every Scots statute acre of flax raised, to a maximum of 6 acres.
The reference is obviously to a specific farm in the parish as other farms in the parish are mentioned by name. It may well show up in Roy's map.
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I sympathise, Forfarian. The Finlayson records alone for Larbert are poor...never mind possible Hogg issues. Were there gaps in records for the OPRs, or were the family a different religeous denomination? Or did this family group simply not register events :-\ Hard to say for sure.
As you say, for the Finlaysons, what is around early 1800s to 1841 certainly feels like Janet's family, but hard to connect formally the dots so far.
Monica
PS: That looks promising re possibly Robert Hogg, GR2 :)
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Thanks, GR2, that's interesting.
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This is listing of some of the Tax databases on ScotlandsPlaces:
http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/historical-tax-rolls
Thanks Monica, I was looking at those yesterday to see what was there. Will get a sub today, so will get digging soon.
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It looks like I’m going to have a long wait before I get to see if there are any more clues for Robert Hogg since ScotlandsPlaces doesn’t appear to be too keen on getting new subscriptions. I’m still waiting to receive the email they supposedly sent in order to finish the process for membership. I did however receive an email stating my request is being processed and will email details soon.
Perhaps staff are on holiday or watching the Commonwealth Games!
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Finally was able to get access to the Historical Records on ScotlandsPlaces. No easy way to search, so a long and tedious process having to look through each page...however, I did find Robert in 1785 on the Cart Tax rolls.
He farmed at Carbrock or Carbrook farm but haven't been able to come up with anything else to connect him to this location.
What is known:
Robert Hogg, married, from Dunipace, is a farmer & horse dealer
1785 Cart duty - Carbrock, Dunipace [might be Carbrook*] 2 carts with 2 wheels, 2/- duty, half years Duty - 2 shillings
1791 received £1 16s 6d for growing flax. (Thanks to GR2)
1793 Young Peter Hogg born in Larbert to Janet Finlayson, daughter of James Finlayson, quarrier.
1797, August 12th, 3 horses - paid 4/- tax duty on 2 horses (the other one for personal use)
*If it is Carbrook Farm then James Dickson, an Oil Merchant + Farm Manager worked at the farm for 30 years from around 1860 onwards - he appears on the 1861 census. (There is a photo of the farmhouse here http://www.geocities.ws/scotlandsmahame/dickson3rdgeneration.html)
Prior to that in 1851, a James McSuckie (probably McLuckie?) lived and worked at Carbrook - the address on Ancestry only says Carbrook but possibly same farm. Not seeing anything for 1841 census for McSuckie or McLuckie or Carbrook/Carbrock.
1841: Not finding Carbrook, Robert Hog, or McLuckie
1851: Carbrook, Dunipace, Stirlingshire
James Mc Suckie [McLuckie] 67, head, (Landed Proprietor Farms 72 Acres)
Robert Mc Suckie 22, son, Writer Work Signet ?
Jean Fisher 30, servant,
1861: Carbrook Lodge, Dunipace, Stirlingshire
James Dickson 35, head, Carter Domestic Servt
Janet Dickson 27, wife, Lodger Keeper
Eliza Dickson 6, scholar
David Dickson 5, scholar
Margaret Dickson 3
Jane B A Dickson 8 Mo [first to be born in Dunipace]
See this map for Carbrook House, with the lodge a little further down - might have been the farmhouse. http://maps.nls.uk/view/74430873
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I've got a wee bit of history for Carbrook which I'll send to Forfarian & Lenagh direct.
Here's a wee sketch of Carbook House.
Anne :)
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Hi Everyone,
For some light relief I had a look at the family history site below for the shepherd poet then was rather surprised to find alive in 1841 a Robert Hogg age 90 living at Catslacknow in Yarrow parish. If he really was born 1751 he's not to be found in the family history below. Mind this was on Freecen and given the age of the other members of the household it could very well be a mistranscription of his age. Probably another family entirely but just in case he fits in somewhere.
http://www.monicahogg.com/jameshogg/
Jen
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Hi Anne,
I enjoyed our wee chat and thanks for the email and attachments on Carbrook House. As I mentioned, I'm inclined to think Robert Hogg would have been a tenant farmer possibly where the lodge is rather than the owner, but who knows? More research needed.
Jen: Thanks for looking. I looked through that family history site many years ago and couldn't find a connection - perhaps it's time to have another look. I'm not sure about a connection with the 90 year old Robert Hogg in Yarrow, but interesting. Just have to continue researching.