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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: wyanga on Monday 28 July 14 11:29 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
My 3 Great grandmother Margaret McKellar nee Campbell died in 1855 aged 80, so she had one of the detailed death certificates that were only issued in that year. her parents are given as Duncan Campbell and Nancy McNaughtan.
Years of searching have failed to find a Duncan Campbell married to a McNaughtan in the period 1750 to 1780.
The information on the death certificate was supplied by Duncan Thompson, Margaret's son in law. Realising that all family details would have been passed down by word of mouth, I am wondering if perhaps there is an error with her mother's name.
There is a Margaret Campbell baptised at Lochgoilhead 29.10 1775 with parents Duncan Campbell and Agnes McKoel. Nancy = Agnes, Ann , Annie, so I am wondering if this might be her parents. The birth in 1755 corresponds with her age of 80 in 1855 and there is a deffinate connection to Lochgoilhead as she was buried there. She died at Coul farm which is near Barnacabba the home farm for the Glenfinart Estate, Dunoon would have been closer for a buriel. The connection to Lochgoilhead could be from her husband Peter McKellar or the Campbell family.
Is it possible that there might be a Campbell /McNaughtan marriage that I have failed to find?
I am loath to claim the Duncan Campbell and Agnes McKoel as her parents when her death certificate names her mother as Nancy McNaughtan.
Any help would be appreciated
Wyanga
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Hi
Just a bit more information relating to Margaret McKellar/ nee Campbell.
Peter McKellar and Margaret Campbell married 7 Dec 1797 Dunoon & Kilmun Parish reg as McElla
In the 1841 census she is at Coul with her husband Peter aged 65 = birth 1776
In the 1851 census she is at Barnacabber with her Son in law Alexander Grierson and daughter Helen, Margaret is aged 72 = birth 1779
At her death in 1855 her age is given as 80 = birth 1775.
I have noted that scotlandspeople say that in some cases marriages were recorded with the husbands name given for the spouse. That is, Duncan Campbell's marriage might be Campbell/ Campbell.
Are there any other variations for the name Nancy besides Agnes, Ann and Annie ?
Wyanga
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I have just had a look at the 1851 census, and both Margaret and her son-in-law are described as paupers. If the parochial board records survive for the parish, they may give quite detailed information about them.
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GR2
Thank you for your reply.
I understand that Lochgilphead is the reposity for Dunoon/Kilmun Parish records.
I am in Australia so I am not certain of details for the records.
I understood that those without an income were described as "pauper" in the census
Wyanga
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"Pauper" should mean they are in receipt of assistance of some sort. In addition to the parochial board records, the Dunoon and Kilmun Kirk Session's minutes are available digitally in the National Archives in Edinburgh and some other archives in Scotland. The reference for the poor's accounts and minutes 1801-1853 is CH2/456/4.
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GR2
My apologies if I am interupting you watching the Games.
I have been into national Archives, Scotland and I see from thier on line catalogue that they have the church records included, but when I search for the CH2/456/4 - I fail to get a response.
No doubt my searching technicque is wrong.
Would it be possible for you to take me through the steps to obtain the Dunoon & Kilmun Kirk sessions minutes.
Wyanga
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I'm afraid the record itself is not available on-line from home. You have to look at it on screen in the Archives themselves.
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GR2
I am afraid that is out of reach for me
It is unfortunate since Alexander Grierson is another of my brick walls. His birthplace of Wigton Dumfries is confusing since Wigton ism't in Dumfries. I believe that he was a mason working on the renovations at Glenfinart house in the 1840's. He married Helen Mckellar 31 Oct 1837 Dunoon & Kilmun Parish.
The parochial Board records and the Kirk Sessions minutes may have shed some light on he family.
Wyanga
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"Years of searching have failed to find a Duncan Campbell married to a McNaughtan in the period 1750 to 1780."
There is one in Scotland's People, showing as parents for a birth for a Margaret Campbell. Perhaps you are looking in the wrong district.
Regards
Malky
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Flattybasher9,
Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Unfortunateley a birth date for that Margaret in 1759 is far to early to be mine. It would make her nearly 100 at her death in 1855.
However your message has led me to vary my search by leaving out the childs name I get 5 Duncan Campbells married to McNaughtan women. Four are in Perth and the one for Margaret is in Fife.
One that really looks as if it is in the correct time frame is a birth of John 15/9/1778 parents Duncan Campbell and Janet McNaughtan Killn Perth.
This has certainly given me something to work on. In Margaret's death certificate her parents Duncan Campbell and Nancy McNaughtan are given as farmer . I had assumed that it was most likely in Argyll
Thank you for your help
Wyanga
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While birthplaces are often wrong on census returns, hence the need to check as many censuses as possible, the 1841 census says Margaret was born in Argyll and the 1851 census says she was born in Kilmun, Argyll.
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GR2
I agree, I expect that Margaret was born in Argyl, most likely in the Dunoon Kilmun Parish.
On the off chance that the Duncan Campbell and Janet McNaughtan might have moved to Argyll from Perth, I have checked scotlandspeople for their children. They had 5 children born from 1788 to 1794 , all at Killin Perth. No Margaret in them.
So that rules that family out.
There is a Duncan Campbell and a Janet Campbell married at Dunoon in 1774 . The banns indicate that she was definately a Campbell giving her father's name as Archibald Campbell. This family have 2 children at Dunoon & kilmun Archibald 9/12/1774 and Colin 5/1/1777. So again I have ruled them out.
Wyanga
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Hi there Wyanga,
I have been following this thread with interest as last year I found another Death Certificate for a James Campbell a Labourer who died aged 84 in Kilmun in Aug 1856, buried in Lochgoilhead. His Father was listed as Duncan Campbell and his Mother as Nancy McNaught.
The similarities continue as he too was a recipient of parish funds / annuitant in both the 1841 and 1851 census with his wife Margaret. His birth town in the 1851 census was listed as Lochgoilhead. Working backwards, this would put his birth in Lochgoilhead around 1772.
The informant at his death in 1856 was his Brother in Law Archibald McGlashan. James Campbell and Margaret McGlashan married in Strachur in Jan 1799 and their first child Ann was born in Apr of the same year. The remainder of their 12 children were baptised in the Kilmun parish and James was listed as a Labourer / Cotter of Cuil.
After James died in 1856, James' wife, Margaret moved to Greenock with her Daughter and was listed in the 1861 census at 16 Hamilton Street still listed as an Annuitant. She died in 1861 with her particulars recorded on her death record as Margaret Campbell widow of James Campbell Forrester 16 Hamilton Street Female 81 years Father Dugald McGlashan Ann McGlashan ms Sinclair Informant William Robertson son in law present.
I would love to hear from anyone else that has links to this family for ideas on where we could possibly search for further information on Duncan Campbell, Nancy McNaught(on) and any further children.
Best Regards
Sally
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Mustangwright
Hi Sally,
I find your information exciting as it is the first time that I have sighted a reference to Duncan Campbell and Nancy McNaught. This surely must be the same as my Duncan Campbell and Nancy McNaughtan.
It could be that the James Campbell and my Margaret Campbell were siblings. There is also the similarity in that both were buried at Lochgoilhead. Also their ages would have been very similar James b abt 1772 and Margaret b abt 1775
Do you have any thoughts on " Cuil" ?
I have interpreted it as being the same as "Coul"
Wyanga
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Hi there again Wyanga,
I have found a map on The Scotland's Places website that shows a small farmhouse named Cuil slightly west north west of Glenfinart House which I am assuming is the farm that both Margaret and James brought their families up on. http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/record/nls/1302/ordnance-survey-six-inch-mile-argyllshire-sheet-clxiv/os6inch
I am planning to undertake some DNA testing within my own family to try and narrow down whether I have the right Campbell family group and area. Hopefully, a connection is found with the McKellar family. It is all just assumptions and theories until then.
Cheers ... Sally
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mustangwright
Hi Sally,
I think that i have the same map. I also beleive that the house maked as Cuil is the Coul named in the 1850 census as the residence for Peter and Margaret McKellar. He was a shepherd and there is a sheep fold marked near by.
Interestingly in searching for Coul or Coul cottage , I had correspondence with an Alistair McLean in Arizona,now decd. Apparently his family had lived in a house Coul cottage at Barnacabba. This particular house is not marked on that map having been built later, but he told me that as a boy he used to play in the ruins of a building where Cuil is marked on the map. I have identified the McLean's house on Google as being on the other side of the road to Barnacabber.
I am not sure how you will fare with dna testing, as a female it will have to be a family finder test and these are really only accurate to about 4 or 5 generations. Is it Campbell or McKellar that you are researching?
Try sending a PM to me and we can then exchange email addresses and share information
Wyanga
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All those that have been following this thread
The posts from mustangwright have confirmed that there was a Duncan Campbell and Nancy McNaught( an) in the 1770's period. I had begun to think that the details for her parents on Margaret's death certificate in 1855 might be incorrect.
It would seem from both her James and my Margaret being buried at Lochgoilhead that it is likely their parents have come from that locality.
Perhaps a smaller church from near Lochgoilhead where the records have not survived ??
I am sure that the baptisms for James and Margaret are not in the scotlandspeople records nor is there a marriage for Duncan Campbell and Nancy McNaught (an). Nor are they on familysearch.org.
I would like to thank all those who have responded to this thread .
The outcome appears to be that mustangwright and I share a common ancester in the mid 1700's
of Duncan Campbell and Nancy McNaught (an). even if we have failed to find any records for them.
Wyanga
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Hi
I need more help.
On checking the baptisms for Peter mcKellar and Margarets children I find that they are at Cuil which I beleive I have found near Barnacabber and Glenfinart Estate. But the others are Upper Sligrachan or just Sligrachan. All are in the Dunoon and Kilmun Parish.
Can anyone tell me where Upper Sligrachan was in the very early 1800's ?
Wyanga
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Hi wyanga
Try www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html. Type in either Silgrachan in to the search box, or use the co-ordinates: 216745 and 690821.
Pay to view now, but a useful list of descriptions and place names here www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/place-names/Dunoon%20and%20Kilmun?class=parish&county=Argyll
A Campbell family show as living at Sligrachan (indexed as Sligvachan) in 1851. Try freecen http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl for 1841. A useful search as you can search back and forward to see individual household entries which helps you find where a place may be located. On FreeCen 1841, possibility that Sligrachan may have been indexed as Hijerchan
In order of how the households show:
Craig Coll
Hijerchan...I think the Campbell family from 1851 also show here in 1841
Drynan
Barnacabar
Coul
Glenfinart
Monica :)
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Monical,
I think that I may have found the Sligrachan marked on a map . If it is the right one it is several miles further up the valley from Barnacabber, still in Dunoon Kilmun Parish so this would seem to be right. Peter McKellar and Margaret Campell' children were born here, but the 11th was born at Cuil, 1819 which I have as being near Barnacabber.
Interestingly mustangwright's james Campbell and Margaret McGlashan, see earlier post, are having children at Cuill 1815 through to 1828.
Wyanga
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Late to this party (and new) but interested as my great great grandfather was Duncan McKellar born 10/10/1810 born Carradale/Dunoon - the Campbelltown area. He emigrated to Australia so this spreads the family further afield. His wife was Jane Craig whom he married in 1833. Duncan's parents are said to be Peter and Margaret McKellar. However the Duncan you have listed was born in 1799 so maybe our family information is incorrect.
Maree Kirkland
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Chandy9
It would seem that there may be some confusion with your Duncan McKellar.
I have checked and my Duncan McKellar, son of Peter and Margaret McKellar was born 1st Nov 1798 and christened 9th Nov 1798 from Scotlandspeople baptisms.
I know there were numerous McKellar names in the baptisms and yours should be recorded there.
I have just done a quick check and there are no Duncan McKellar's in Dunoon from 1805 to 1815. There are some 24 when I leave as 'all Parishes', so yours may have been baptised in another Parish. Sorry I am low on credits to check those.
Do you have a copy of the marriage certificate to Jane Craig in 1833, this may give his parents names.
Wyanga (I am in Australia)
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Chandy9
What is the information that you have for Duncan McKellar.
I have just found in the unassisted immigrants list a Duncan McKellar aboard the Yarra Yarra 1855 age 45 born abt 1810 Scotland.
I think that this is the name of a seaman on board , NOT an immigrant.
Wyanga
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Hi Wyanga,
I have just lost everything I typed!
My Duncan McKellar was born 10/10/1810 at Carradale (near Dunoon and Campbelltown -trying to find where this came from to confirm it) son of Peter and Mary- so I have got the Margaret from another source.
He married Jane (or Jean) Craig on 12/8 or 3/1833. Their son Peter was born 12/8/1833 in Campbelltown. Duncan, Jane and 2 sons Peter and Archibald were assisted immigrant sponsored by Mr A. Lang (a brother of the Rev. John Dunmore Lang) and arrived aboard the 'Portland' on 3/12/1837. Duncan was listed as a shepherd on the shipping indexes and first worked for General Stewart at Mt Pleasant near Bathurst.
I don't have any certificates- most information is through the McKellar family as published in the Blayney Pioneer Register. Any certificates I have pertain to my great grandmother Jane Craig McKellar (daughter of Duncan and Jane) Looking forward to anything you can tell me. Thanks so much.
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Chandy9
Thank you I have found them now in the Unassisted migrants on board the "Portland" in 1737 . His wife is listed as Jenn, or might be Jean. The record is a bit cut off but it seems as if they have come from Campletown Argyll
I think that you will be better searching for Duncan McKellar and Mary for his baptism.
I am sure that he is not from Peter McKellar and Margaret's family, although they could very well be related as the family names are in both families.It looks as if Archibald was born in Paisley, an infant in 1737 so he may have arrived while they were waiting for the ship .
I have not been able to identify a birthdate for my Peter although from census he would have been born about 1771.
Wyanga
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Chandy9
The marriage in 1833 on scotlandspeople does not provide any information re parents names, but both Duncan and Jean were of Campbelltown parish.
Wyanga
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Hi Wyanga,
Thanks for that. Did you mean 1837 for the 'Portland'? That Archibald born 1827 in Paisley seems to have died en route to Australia as Duncan and Jean (one branch of the family refers to her as 'Jenny' so the Jean/Jenn is highly probable.) had another son also named Archibald born after they arrived in Australia. Where do you search for your information? (as in where is most helpful) I agree that my Duncan is not Peter and Margaret's son.
Thanks again for your clarification.
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Chandy9
Sorry about the dates. they would have beaten Cook to Australia in 1737! But 1771 is correct for my Peter McKellar.
Scottish parish records are best from Scotlandspeople.org You have to join and then buy some credits to look at the records.
This site is also excellent if you are having trouble, there are some wonderfull volunteers here who go to a lot of trouble on your behalf and they have access to a lot of material that we cannot view from Australia.
With thier help I was able to solve my dilema with Margaret Campbell and find her parents and Grandfather. I assume that you must be using Ancestry, beware of thier hints, most do not relate to your individual. But they do have the shipping arrivals in Australia.
Good hunting
Wyanga
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Thanks Wyanga.
I have found mention that my Peter's wife Mary may also have been a McKellar and a birthdate of 4/5/1778 in Dunoon is given so that could be a line to chase down. It would be great to have photos and more details on our ancestors, it really gets me in.
Thanks for your help.
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Chandy9
Marriages for Peter McKellar in Argyll. Scotlandspeople.org
There are several to Mary's (8) and 3 to Mary McKellar. I havn't viewed the records which take 5 credits each
One of those could be significent.
03/04/1802 MACKELLAR PETER MARY MCKELLAR/FR378 (FR378) M GLASSARY /ARGYLL 511/00 0020 0195 View(5 Credits) Order
2 01/07/1810 MACKELLAR PETER FLORY MACNAB/FR396 (FR396) M GLASSARY /ARGYLL 511/00 0020 0212 View(5 Credits) Order
3 25/02/1797 MCKELLAR PETER MARY GORDON/FR371 (FR371) M GLASSARY /ARGYLL 511/00 0020 0188 View(5 Credits) Order
4 30/08/1799 MCKELLAR PETER MARY MCKELLAR/FR76 (FR76) M SADDELL AND SKIPNESS /ARGYLL 531/00 0010 0063 View(5 Credits) Order
5 01/09/1799 MCKELLAR PETER MARY MCKELLAR/FR374 (FR374) M GLASSARY /ARGYLL 511/00 0020 0191 View(5 Credits) Order
6 19/06/1802 MCKELLAR PETER MARY MCEOUEN/FR363 (FR363) M KILCALMONELL AND KILBERRY /ARGYLL 516/00 0010 0359 View(5 Credits) Order
7 27/06/1802 MCKELLAR PETER MARY MCEWING/FR171 (FR171) M SOUTH KNAPDALE /ARGYLL 533/00 0010 0162 View(5 Credits) Order
8 15/01/1803 MCKELLAR PETER JEAN MCARTHUR/FR378 (FR378) M GLASSARY /ARGYLL 511/00 0020 0195 View(5 Credits) Order
9 27/12/1806 MCKELLAR PETER MARY CAMPBELL/FR385 (FR385) M GLASSARY /ARGYLL 511/00 0020 0202 View(5 Credits) Order
10 14/01/1809 MCKELLAR PETER MARY SINCLAIR/FR390 (FR390) M GLASSARY /ARGYLL 511/00 0020 0207 View(5 Credits) Order
Click here for printer-friendly grid Click here for map instead of grid
Wyanga
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Chandy9
Hi This looks as if is the baptism for your Duncan ( married to Jean Craig )
1 19/10/1810 MCKELLAR DUNCAN PETER MCKELLAR/ M SADDELL AND SKIPNESS /ARGYLL 531/00 0010 0052
Note that the mariage 4 above of Peter and Mary McKellar is in Saddell and Skipness in 1799, so that is likely to be the correct one to be Duncan's parents. There are likely to be other children for this marriage . Search for baptisms 1800 to 1820 for McKellar in Saddell and Skipness with father Peter.
Wyanga
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Chandy 9
These are the children for Peter McKellar Saddell & Skipness. It appears that there were 2 Peters having children about the same time. Searched 1800 to 1820.
You will need to view each one to get the right ones by town or villiage. Compare to Duncan's.
1 20/08/1800 MCKELLAR ANNY PETER MCKELLAR/ SADDELL AND SKIPNESS /ARGYLL 531/00 0010 0044 View(5 Credits) Order
2 28/08/1807 MCKELLAR CHRISTY PETER MCKELLAR/ SADDELL AND SKIPNESS /ARGYLL 531/00 0010 0050 View(5 Credits) Order
3 19/10/1810 MCKELLAR DUNCAN PETER MCKELLAR/ M SADDELL AND SKIPNESS /ARGYLL 531/00 0010 0052 View(5 Credits) Order
4 24/10/1802 MCKELLAR JANNET PETER MCKELLAR/ F SADDELL AND SKIPNESS /ARGYLL 531/00 0010 0046 View(5 Credits) Order
5 24/10/1800 MCKELLAR JOHN PETER MCKELLAR/ M SADDELL AND SKIPNESS /ARGYLL 531/00 0010 0044 View(5 Credits) Order
6 07/11/1800 MCKELLAR JOHN PETER MCKELLAR/ M SADDELL AND SKIPNESS /ARGYLL 531/00 0010 0044 View(5 Credits) Order
7 21/03/1805 MCKELLAR PETER PETER MCKELLAR/ M SADDELL AND SKIPNESS /ARGYLL 531/00 0010 0048 View(5 Credits)
Wyanga
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Yes Wyanga. Thanks again - from comparing with other sources it does seem you have the correct Peter and Mary married in Saddell and Skipness and that is where Duncan was christened on 19/10/1810. Thanks so much again.
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Chandy 9
Happy to have been of help :)
I really do think that you need to register at Scotlandspeople and check the original entries for the marriage and to sort the children out. Registration is free but you will need at least 40 credits to check them out possibly around 10 pound stg.
There is likely to be more detail in the entries than there is in these transcriptions.
If you intend to track this family further back you will need Scotlandspeople.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&607
Wyanga
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Yes thanks again Wyanga. I will register with Scotland's People.
One of Duncan's siblings, Mary also seems to have come to Australia so that is also interesting.
Good luck with your search. Cheers. :D
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Chandy 9
I only searched for the children for Peter McKellar 1800 to 1820 at Saddell & Skipness,
you may ned to extend this search to 1830 or more. There is not a Mary included in the ones I found. Incidently put Saddell in the search bax for Parish.
Wyanga
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Thanks again, Wyanga. I am thinking Mary is older than Duncan. Mary McKellar married Robert Hatton and it is their daughter Jane (born Thorniebank, Scotland on 29/11/1832) who came to Australia around 1854 who then married her first cousin Peter 0n 13/5/1857. Another Jane McKellar!!!!! Cheers