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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: geordiesue on Wednesday 30 July 14 04:14 BST (UK)
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Hi I wondered if anyone could give me a bit of advice please. First of all I will give you the information that I do know.
My g grandmother Elizabeth Jane Mabon born 1889-92 married my g grandfather Thomas Brown in 1901 reg district Morpeth Jan-feb-march qr volume 10b pge 575 witnesses were William Dodds and Grace Lillico.
I cant find them as newlyweds on the 1901 census but have found them on the 1911 census living at 48 Chevington Crescent Acklington in the civil parish east/west chevington bullocks hall. Elizabeth Janes estimated birth year is 1882 and states born in Bedlington and Thomas Brown estimated birth year 1878 born in Broomhill. They are with their children Elizabeth Ann b 1902 Chevington, Sarah Jane Brown b 1906 Chevington (my grandmother) who was born Sept 25th 1905, Thomas William 1907 Chevington, Margaret Brown 1909. It appears from the census they had another 2 children that must have died in infancy.
From What I have been told from my mam is that Elizabeth Jane died young when my grandmother was about 13-14 yrs of age. I have found a death for an Elizabeth Jane Brown Jun 1919 aged 36 volume 10b pge 469 Morpeth. I have also found a burial record for Elizabeth Jane 11th June 1919 in the Chevington Chruch burial records.
Now here is the problem My grandmothers 2 sisters Elizabeth Ann and Margaret both married and went on to have children, one of which I know had 3 sons and the other had 4 children. I havent found these marriages and children as yet but from what I know from my mother is both sisters had died with the hereditry disease huntingtons chorea. Also I believe Elizabeth Anns sons inherited the same and 2 of margarets children. I know that Margarets Married name was Cairns.
Some time during the late 1960`s my grandmother was asked questions about her family history which must have been to trace back to see where the gene had originated. My grandmother was able to tell them she remembered as a child her mother was wheelchair bound and was told that her mother had huntingtons also. She told my mam that they had found they couldn`t go any further back through her family because she was adopted. Now my question here is would it be worth obtaining the marriage certificate for elizabeth jane and thomas brown?
I do have a theory here and Its probably a long shot but I think its true she was adopted but possibly by her grandparents.
I found on a census 1891 in Bedlington Elizabeth Jane Mabon born abt 1879 but it says oxford,northumberland now in this census it says daughter of William Mabon born 1831in Grindon, other family members are William 1868 son, Jane 1859 daughter, Barbara 1863 daughter, Robert Lee 1890.
Now again on the 1881 census Elizabeth Jane again but now born in Ancroft. With William who is now her grandfather, his wife elizabeth, jane, William and Barbara.
What I have noticed is that looking at Jane Mabon in the 1901 census living in Bedlington shes now widowed and her name is shown as Jane Cain. I dont know if its the same Jane Mabon married James Cain 1876 reg qr jul-aug-sep morpeth volume 10b 467. Also Robert who on the 1891 census would have been her brother is now her son.
My question is do you think its possible that Jane is Elizabeth Janes mother and that her parents adopted her?
Susan
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Do you have the birth certificate of the Elizabeth you gave as 1889 to 1892? This looks like a possibility:
Elizabeth Jane Mabon, Morpeth Q3 1893 vol 10b page 382
She would be too young to marry in 1901. I think maybe you are mixing people up here. Can we start with the actual facts you have and work back from there.
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You have misinterpreted the information on the marriage record on the GRO index. The four names on the 1901 marriage at Morpeth which you referred to are two couples, not one couple and their witnesses. Based on this record Elizabeth Jane Mabon could have married either Thomas Brown or William Dodds. Thomas Brown could have married either Elizabeth Jane Mabon or Grace Lillico.
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My g grandmother Elizabeth Jane Mabon born 1889-92 married my g grandfather Thomas Brown in 1901 reg district Morpeth Jan-feb-march qr volume 10b pge 575 witnesses were William Dodds and Grace Lillico.
I cant find them as newlyweds on the 1901 census but have found them on the 1911 census living at 48 Chevington Crescent Acklington in the civil parish east/west chevington bullocks hall. Elizabeth Janes estimated birth year is 1882 and states born in Bedlington and Thomas Brown estimated birth year 1878 born in Broomhill.
From What I have been told from my mam is that Elizabeth Jane died young when my grandmother was about 13-14 yrs of age. I have found a death for an Elizabeth Jane Brown Jun 1919 aged 36 volume 10b pge 469 Morpeth. I have also found a burial record for Elizabeth Jane 11th June 1919 in the Chevington Chruch burial records.
Susan
Perhaps it's a typo but your original mention of Elizabeth's birth year is incorrect. The other data if correct points to a birth year of 1879 - 1882, not 1889 - 92. If she married in 1901 & had a first child in 1902, a birth year around 1880 is much more likely.
You need, as Craclyn says, to found everything on known facts, this wil probably involve some certificates at £10 each from the GRO. The marriage certificate is essential to find Elizabeth's age at marriage and her father's name and occupation then you can will be able to confirm her on the censuses. Perhaps also get the death certificate of 1919.
Josey
ADDED: Do you have your grandmother's birth and marriage certificates?
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Sorry just noticed the dates in title are correct, just typos in OP's first paragraph :-[.
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I found on a census 1891 in Bedlington Elizabeth Jane Mabon born abt 1879 but it says oxford,northumberland now in this census it says daughter of William Mabon born 1831in Grindon, other family members are William 1868 son, Jane 1859 daughter, Barbara 1863 daughter, Robert Lee 1890.
Now again on the 1881 census Elizabeth Jane again but now born in Ancroft. With William who is now her grandfather, his wife elizabeth, jane, William and Barbara.
Just to say that there is a farm in Northumberland called Oxford http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=400615&Y=646787&A=Y&Z=120
and it's only a mile or so north of Ancroft.
My question is do you think its possible that Jane is Elizabeth Janes mother and that her parents adopted her?
perhaps you are getting a bit ahead of yourself here :)
As josey and craclyn have advised you, you need to start from what you know and work backwards.
This means getting the marriage certificate and working on the facts you discover from that :)
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Elizabeth Janes estimated birth year is 1882 and states born in Bedlington
If she was born in Bedlington her birth should have been registered in Morpeth Registration District.
I found on a census 1891 in Bedlington Elizabeth Jane Mabon born abt 1879 but it says oxford,northumberland now in this census it says daughter of William Mabon born 1831in Grindon, other family members are William 1868 son, Jane 1859 daughter, Barbara 1863 daughter, Robert Lee 1890.
Now again on the 1881 census Elizabeth Jane again but now born in Ancroft. With William who is now her grandfather, his wife elizabeth, jane, William and Barbara.
A birth in 'Oxford' or Ancroft, should have been registered in Berwick Registration District.
I can't seem to find an Elizabeth Mabon born in either Registration District at the appropriate time :-\
Just for the record, however, there is an Elizabeth Jane Cain, born in Berwick Registration District in the second quarter of 1879. (One to put on the 'back burner' until you get that marriage certificate :) )
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Another for the back burner:
Births Dec 1890
Mabon Robert Morpeth 10b 360
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Another for the back burner:
Births Dec 1890
Mabon Robert Morpeth 10b 360
Oh wow thanks Josie. That would add up to as the Mabons were living in Bedlington at the time. I wonder who James Cain was. This has me wondering now where was he after the marriage? why was Jane living with her parents? I have ordered the marriage certificate of Thomas and Elizabeth Jane as I`m intrigued :)
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I dont know if its the same Jane Mabon married James Cain 1876 reg qr jul-aug-sep morpeth volume 10b 467.
There are four names on the page: Jane Mabon, Mary Hudson, James Cain and George Alexander Douglas.
Are you certain that Jane did actually marry James Cain, and not George Alexander Douglas?
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Be sure to let us know all the details on the certificate when you get it...... :)
You may need a few more certificates in due course, as you can afford them, for you to find the facts about Elizabeth & Robert's births. His middle name of Lee COULD suggest that is his father's surname. However, it is Elizabeth that is the main subject of your query so let's progress her first.
Have you ever found any baptisms in the family to find out what their religious convictions were? Perhaps they were non-conformist for whom fewer records are available online. Apparently the Woodhorn Museum have copies of Methodist registers. I have looked for baptisms on ancestry with no success but I am not sure they have Northumberland records. As far as I know registration only became compulsory in 1876, but there may still have been people who did not register for some reason or another & a baptism will be the only record.
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Be sure to let us know all the details on the certificate when you get it...... :)
You may need a few more certificates in due course, as you can afford them, for you to find the facts about Elizabeth & Robert's births. His middle name of Lee COULD suggest that is his father's surname. However, it is Elizabeth that is the main subject of your query so let's progress her first.
Have you ever found any baptisms in the family to find out what their religious convictions were? Perhaps they were non-conformist for whom fewer records are available online. Apparently the Woodhorn Museum have copies of Methodist registers. I have looked for baptisms on ancestry with no success but I am not sure they have Northumberland records. As far as I know registration only became compulsory in 1876, but there may still have been people who did not register for some reason or another & a baptism will be the only record.
Hi Josey
The marriage certificate has been ordered and will be dispatched on 5th Aug so thats a start. I have also ordered a marriage certificate for my husbands g grandfather John Richardson from my other query on the board. I dont know what religion they were sorry
Susan
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Hi
In the Morpeth Herald 8th July 1876 Marriages " In this town at the Registry Office ... 4th inst Mr James Cain to Miss Jane Mabon, both of Morpeth".
William
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Hi
In the Morpeth Herald 8th July 1876 Marriages " In this town at the Registry Office ... 4th inst Mr James Cain to Miss Jane Mabon, both of Morpeth".
William
That's a nice find :)
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Hi
Could refer to death of their father, William Mabon - Morpeth Herald Feb 28 1903 " Mrs Cain and Mrs Matthewson desire to express their heartfelt thanks to all friends and neighbours for help and sympathy in their recent sad bereavement".
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Hi
Could refer to death of their father, William Mabon - Morpeth Herald Feb 28 1903 " Mrs Cain and Mrs Matthewson desire to express their heartfelt thanks to all friends and neighbours for help and sympathy in their recent sad bereavement".
Ahh now theres a marriage for Barbara Mabon oct-nov-dec 1895 possibly Thomas Matthewson morpeth volume 10b page 604. Thats got to be William Mabon. Brilliant find :)
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Hi
In the Morpeth Herald 8th July 1876 Marriages " In this town at the Registry Office ... 4th inst Mr James Cain to Miss Jane Mabon, both of Morpeth".
William
That`s another great find I wonder though if Elizabeth Jane was adopted would she have to put her real fathers name on the marriage certificate or if she has been adopted by William could she use his?
That's a nice find :)
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From Free BMD
Deaths Mar 1903
Mabon William 72 Morpeth 10b 264
William Jnr maybe ?
Deaths Dec 1905
Mabon William 38 Morpeth 10b 247
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Again from the Morpeth Herald 13th April 1907 "In loving memory of Mary Ridley daughter of Thomas and Margaret Matthewson who died at Blyth on April 14th 1906, aged 5 years."
The Morpeth Herald is quite well covered on the British Newspaper Archive. You can search for free once registered but have to pay to look at full articles. It is also on Find My Past.
I have looked for a death for James Cain but have drawn a blank in the time frame suggested. Could they have become estranged? I note that Robert, presumably Elizabeth Jane's brother is shown in the 1891 and 1901 census with Jane Mabon/Cain. His birth registration would appear to be as Robert Mabon Morpeth Oct - Dec q 1890. In the 1891 census he is shown as Robert Lee Mabon. Might be worth obtaining his birth cert at some stage as well as he might well turn out to be a half brother.
William
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Again from the Morpeth Herald 13th April 1907 "In loving memory of Mary Ridley daughter of Thomas and Margaret Matthewson who died at Blyth on April 14th 1906, aged 5 years."
The Morpeth Herald is quite well covered on the British Newspaper Archive. You can search for free once registered but have to pay to look at full articles. It is also on Find My Past.
I have looked for a death for James Cain but have drawn a blank in the time frame suggested. Could they have become estranged? I note that Robert, presumably Elizabeth Jane's brother is shown in the 1891 and 1901 census with Jane Mabon/Cain. His birth registration would appear to be as Robert Mabon Morpeth Oct - Dec q 1890. In the 1891 census he is shown as Robert Lee Mabon. Might be worth obtaining his birth cert at some stage as well as he might well turn out to be a half brother.
William
Thank you William they are all great finds. Roberts birth records could be worth looking at. I`m trying to find death records for Jane Mabon/Cain and James Cain but having no luck so far.
Susan
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From Free BMD
Deaths Mar 1903
Mabon William 72 Morpeth 10b 264
William Jnr maybe ?
Deaths Dec 1905
Mabon William 38 Morpeth 10b 247
Thanks Jan I think you have William senior and William Jnr. :)
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Don't forget that there are no official adoption records before 1929 so SHOULD it turn out that Elizabeth was taken in to be brought up by her grandparents it would have been an informal arrangement.
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Hi
There is a death for Jane Cain b 1858 in the Jun q 1917 Morpeth.
The Morpeth Herald 16 Dec 1905 has a lengthy report regarding the inquest into the death of William Mabon . It is a very sad story. One of the witnesses is his sister Jane Mabon , of Clayton Street, Bedlington Station. (This is the same street address as in the 1901 census). I can pm you more detail if you wish.
William
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Hi
There is a death for Jane Cain b 1858 in the Jun q 1917 Morpeth.
The Morpeth Herald 16 Dec 1905 has a lengthy report regarding the inquest into the death of William Mabon . It is a very sad story. One of the witnesses is his sister Jane Mabon , of Clayton Street, Bedlington Station. (This is the same street address as in the 1901 census). I can pm you more detail if you wish.
William
Hi William the death for Jane Cain seems to be our Jane. Thank you so much for that :)
Yes please I`d like to take a look at that report for William Jr
Susan
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Hi All I now have the Marriage Certificate for Thomas Brown and Elizabeth Jane Mabon. Here goes hope this works
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Well that wasn`t what I was expecting :-\
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Thanks for posting that. The marriage certificate does show that Elizabeth did not consider William Mabon born 1831, who was still alive, to be her father. She has taken her age down a bit, too to 19 [born 1881 - 1882] - she was 2 on the 1881 census, so actually born 1878 - 1879. The lack of father's names certainly does not help your search for the Huntington's gene.
Perhaps the death certificate of Elizabeth Jane Brown of 1919 aged 36 is the next best step to see what her cause of death was; perhaps also the Jane Cain death of 1917 aged 59.
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Hi
Think I may have them in the 1901 census living in Chevington
Mary A Brown 73 Head b Hawburn
Thomas Brown 23 G'son b Broomhill coal miner
Isabella Brown 19 Dau in L b Broomhill
Isabella and Elizabeth were often used interchangeably, particularly in Scotland. I have encountered it as well in my own family in Northumberland and Durham.
William
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I have never experienced interchanging of Isabella and Elizabeth in Northumberland. May need to be a little careful that these are not two different people.
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Isabella and Elizabeth were often used interchangeably, particularly in Scotland. I have encountered it as well in my own family in Northumberland and Durham
:-\ That's a new one to me.
I have many Northumberland and Durham Isabellas and Elizabeths in my family tree and I've never ever come across an example of the name being used interchangeably :-\
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Same here JenB. Most of my family groups have one of each :)
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All I can say is that the census entry that I found should not be dismissed. See the Whats in a name site for the interchangeability of Elizabeth and Isabella.
William
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I did not mean that your census suggestion should be dismissed, just that it should be carefully reviewed to see if they were too different people.
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Quite agree! Any source should be looked at critically.
William
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I have to say I had noticed that 1901 census. There were 2 Thomas Browns born around the same time and in the same area. One was to Margaret Brown born 1877 in Chevington who was single and the other was born in Amble christened 6th July 1880 to Francis and Margaret Brown. It seems like the 2 Thomas`s are cousins as Francis is the first Margarets brother. Looking at the 1861 census Francis and Margarets mother was called Mary Ann Brown so its all a bit confusing. It was the name Isabel that put me off.
Susan
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Sorry I ment to ask about that. Going off the marriage certificate and the absence of a father named
would that mean Margaret Brown single would be his mother?
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would that mean Margaret Brown single would be his mother?
It means she MIGHT :) but you cannot assume anything without confirmation from church records or certificates.
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This is a possible death for Mary A Brown from the Morpeth Herald.
At Woodhorn Glebe on July 29th 1906 aged 77 years Mary Ann Brown wife of the late Thomas Brown of Broomhill. Interred at Woodhorn Churchyard.
William
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Hi Susan
Re Thomas Brown b Amble it looks as though he was born 1880 - 1881 according to the 1881 census. Hints pointed me towards deaths in British Columbia and going to British Columbia deaths on Family Search (where you can see the cert) a death for a Thomas Brown states born 8th June 1880 birthplace Amble, Northumberland, widower,age at last birthday 83 . Father is named as Frank Brown while mother n/k. Date of Death 29 Feb 1964. Mary Fordy is given as wife's name
William
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1901 census has Thomas Brown b Amble still at home in Amble with parents Francis and Margaret and showing as single and aged 20.
I cannot quote the 1911 census but would suggest you look at 1911 census for Thomas Brown b Amble 1881 and link it to my previous post. I suspect you can rule him out as being your Thomas.
William
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Good finds, William.
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This is a possible death for Mary A Brown from the Morpeth Herald.
At Woodhorn Glebe on July 29th 1906 aged 77 years Mary Ann Brown wife of the late Thomas Brown of Broomhill. Interred at Woodhorn Churchyard.
William
Hi William
What a great find Woodhorn Churchyard is not far from me so I think I will take a look down there. I cant find her on the 1901 census other than the one with Thomas and Isabel. It might also be worth checking out the whereabouts of her children as its possible she might have moved in with them before her death
Thank you
Susan
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Hi Susan
I would suggest that you have a look at Freereg as the parish record burial of Mary Ann Brown at Woodhorn has been transcribed. Both William Mabon burials in 1903 and 1905 have also been transcribed as has that of Jane Cain in 1917. Search under the surname Mabon in Northumberland and quite a few come up in your area. There might be some other graveyards for you to visit.
William
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Might also be worth taking a look at the Monumental Inscriptions file at the Archives at Woodhorn before you go tramping around the churchyard. I spent a couple of hours looking for an ancestor in that churchyard a couple of years ago and have since discovered that there is no legible headstone for him.
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Good point, Craclyn. The MIs would be an excellent resource to look at. A number of the burials I noticed were in Bedlington.
William
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Thank you all for your help and advice. Im hoping to get to Woodhorn archives at some point. I have a bit of a family crisis at the minute as my mam had a fall and has fractured her shoulder so may not be for at least a month. She was staying with me for a few days. I`ve been updating her with the search for her grandparents and she`s amazed and fascinated by what you have all been able to find out. She knew her grandfather Thomas Brown but nobody ever spoke about Elizabeth Jane until later when they wanted to research the family history.
I`m wondering if in the mean time it would be worth ordering the birth certificate for Elizabeth Jane Cain born 1879 in Berwick that Jen mentioned earlier. It could be a possiblity givin that Jane Cain tho married was still going by her maiden name of Mabon on the 1881 census.
Susan
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Hi I`ve just received the birth certificate for Elizabeth Jane which I`m trying to attach but its Great news ;D JenB you`re a star. She was registered as Elizabeth Jane Cain 1879 in Berwick from Oxford Ancroft, Mothers name Jane Cain formely Mabon and fathers name James Cain. I cant quite make out the writing for her fathers occupation but it could be musician. I`ll try again later to attach it to see if someone could work out what it says
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hope this works
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Great you've now got Elizabeth's birth. I think it does say 'musician' for James' occupation. Will try to find him on the census.
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Hello again
Have a look at the 1891 census. There is a James Cain aged 50 living in Clive Street, Tynemouth at the Globe Inn. He is recorded as a musician. Although said to be married, no wife is with him. Birthplace is Ireland. Interestingly he is recorded as blind from birth.
Have not found him in other censuses yet.
William
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good find. How strange he is the only 'servant' amongst a lot of boarders, too. Struggling to find the same man on other censuses.
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good find. How strange he is the only 'servant' amongst a lot of boarders, too. Struggling to find the same man on other censuses.
Wow that`s a good find. I`ve just been looking at the 1891 census and I see there`s a John Kane 10 years older born in Ireland thats also blind from birth and a travelling musician
Susan
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That John Kane is 'blind from accident'.....
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Yes sorry ur right. Strange tho they have similar names, both from Ireland, both blind and both musicians. James will be hard to pin down if he travels around.
Susan
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Hard to say if James' age of 50 in 1891 was accurate - often servants ages weren't.
rootsireland has 5 James Cains baptised 1839 - 1841 - exact match on surname:
Church Baptism Cain James 1840 Co. Dublin
Church Baptism Cain James 1840 Co. Mayo
Church Baptism Cain James 1839 Co. Galway
Church Baptism Cain James 1839 Co. Waterford
Church Baptism Cain James 1841 Co. Laois
but 35 with soundex [eg Kane]
The 1876 James Cain/Jane Mabon marriage certificate will give James' father's name of course. Individual county baptism records on rootsireland could then be searched with father's name.
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Yes Josie I think the next step is sending off for Jane and James marriage certificate. I wonder why Elizabeth Jane didn`t put James Cain as her father when she married?
Susan
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Hi I`ve just received the marriage certificate for Jane Mabon and James Cain. Unfortunately I dont have access to the scanner so will post it on later when I`m at work.
The marriage took place 4th July 1876 in the Register office Morpeth
name -James Cain aged 28 years
condition as to marriage - Bachelor
rank or proffesion - Attendant
residence at time of marrriage - County Asylum Morpeth
Fathers name - Thomas Cain (deceased)
rank or profession of father - Engine fitter
name - Jane Mabon
condition as to marriage - Spinster
rank or proffesion - Attendant
residence at time of marriage - County Asylum Morpeth
Fathers name = William Mabon
rank or proffesion of father - Stone quarrier
Not sure if this is much help for James Cain :-\
Susan
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Thanks for posting the details.
So James born ca 1848; although ages could be wrong on the census - probably not the 50 yr old in the 1891 census. I looked on the England & IoM censuses for James son of Thomas engine fitter, but all the Thomases with sons James of the right age seemed to ag labs or farmers.
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Hi Josey
James Cain on the 1891 census as a musician seemed to fit in just nicely but this has thrown a spanner in the works. On the 1891 census it stated he was born blind so I cant imagine he`d have been an attendant in an asylum. Coincidently my mother at the age of 21 was a nurse in the same asylum as her g grandparents.
I`m also trying to find a marriage for Janes parents William and Elizabeth but having no luck so far so I think I`m probably going to have to get Jane or one of her siblings birth certificates for Elizabeth`s maiden name.
I cant thank you enough for all your help. I`ve had some brilliant feed back and its always spot on
Susan