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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: maggbill on Wednesday 30 July 14 13:35 BST (UK)
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Have just obtained Poor Law Relief Application for an ancestor - 1870 - 72 which has raised question.
Long story.. but.... the short version is - Jane migrates with her parents and siblings from Ireland to Glasgow in 1864. 1865, she meets an Irish soldier of 59th Foot regiment in Glasgow. Regiment transferred to Ireland, she goes too, they marry there, have a child - but fairly soon thereafter his regiment is sent off to Ceylon.
Jane applies for Poor Law Relief in Glasgow in 1870 (also again, later in 1872, when she gives a full list of her "residences" since migrating originally from Ireland.) On the 1870 application the "Settlement" is one word - "Ireland". I am presuming that was the outcome of the application - they sent her back to Ireland?
Does anyone know the guidelines for these applications? I think I have read somewhere that you had to have lived for a consecutive ?5 years within the Parish area to be eligible for "Relief". And if you hadn't you were sent back (more or less "deported?), to the "Parish" of origin - even if this was Ireland. When I do the calculations/time frames of her listed "residences", it does in fact appear that she went back (was sent back?) to Ireland for at least 9 - 14 months (1871 - 72). Could I be right in this? Any ideas on how this would be done?
Her own parents/siblings were struggling in Glasgow - as far as I know Jane didn't have close family in Ireland. Did authorities in fact do this to people - just send them back to fend for themselves? Was there no "system" to help? My Jane did in fact die of TB in June 1872, about 6 months after coming back to Glasgow - at least then supported by her parents. Her own mother applies on Jane's behalf for Relief only a month before Jane dies - for help so that she, the grandmother can keep Jane's 5 year old daughter. We then lose track of the young daughter, and the two grandparents - not to be found again in any Glasgow records...???
Sorry, this is a long waffly story, but would love to hear if anyone has knowledge of the Poor Law Relief Systems of those days, and if my interpretation sounds plausible. The other thing is that the childs father was a serving soldier up till 1873 when he was discharged from Army - but looks like he didn't take any further interest in child after about 1867/68? Any Army support for the child?? His discharge records give no indication that he was even married or had a child at all.
Any comments anyone?
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P.S. Forget to mention - when the grandmother applied for "Relief" to help look after the 5 year old child - there was again a one word answer - it looks distinctly like "Refused". !! Again, I suppose as the child hadn't been resident in Glasgow for 5 full years?
And therein lies the mystery - the fate of the child and her grandparents after 1873. Where did they go to? (Grandparents Francis McNab wife Mary McCue, both in late 50's, granddaughter Mary Kenny age about 5 or 6.) It is a brickwall I have been struggling with for many years - with enough little pieces, the jigsaw one day might be complete?
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Have you tried looking for the child - Mary? - in the census in an orphanage/ workhouse?
I found my ggg grandfather's daughter in a orphanage/ home for soldier's children while he was away. She died there of typhoid :'(
Might the grandparents have gone back to Ireland if they couldn't get any help in Glasgow?
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Interesting article about poor relief here: -
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/records/scotland.shtml
It looks like it was 7 years' residence to qualify.
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Each parish was required to support the deserving poor within its boundaries, so long as they were born in the parish or had acquired settlement there. Settlement was gained by living in a parish for 5 years or a married woman could adopt her husband's parish of birth or residence.
In cases where settlement was another parish, aid might be given and the relevant parish (in Scotland) charged or the person might be removed to that other parish. Someone born in Ireland, England or Wales, with no settlement in Scotland, who had been receiving poor relief in Scotland could be forcibly removed.
For the legislation see http://www.workhouses.org.uk/poorlaws/1845act.shtml (section LXXVI relates to settlement, section LXXVII relates to England, Ireland and Wales born people)
http://blogserver.cne-siar.gov.uk/wp-archivist/?p=2726 gives actual Western Isles examples
Poor relief for her child could have been refused for reasons other than settlement eg the family's income deemed to be sufficient to provide for her.
Hope this helps and all the best with your search.
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I think miriamkinga is right, it had to be, as far as I know, 7 years residency in the parish of application. What you have to remember is, there was no distinction made between countries within the United Kingdom and, as Ireland was part of the UK, it would have been deemed acceptable to send her back to her parish of birth (or perhaps the last parish where she, or her husband, had the required number of years residency). If she had been English or Welsh it would have been the same. There was a Poor Law system in operation throughout Ireland at that time, communication between parishes, (all over the UK) was frequent and the information asked for was thorough.
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I have just spoken to the "Oracle" at the City Archives (you all know who she is) and, off the top of her head, she thinks the period of residence was 7 years up until about 1860 or so, then it dropped to 5 years and around the 1890s it was further reduced to just 3 years. She also said that having "Settlement Ireland" on the claim did not mean that the person was forced to return there, (although it did happen on occasions) but that the claim was sent to the parish in Ireland and if it was accepted, then money was transferred to the parish in Scotland.
We are no further forward in finding your little Mary!
Going back to the original claim you obtained. Is there any mention of money after the "Settlement Ireland" statement? Or anything else written after that?
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Hi everyone,
Thank you all very much for your input - and sorry to have taken a while to answer - rather busy day. There certainly is a lot for me to think about in your replies.
When Jane made her Relief application in 1870, and the "Settlement" was "Ireland" - the only further statement dated the same day of application was "Offered Poorhouse by Indoor Inspector, did not come in". No mention at all of any financial assistance. But we know that sometime thereafter she spent about 9 to 14 months in Ireland, whether by her own volition or not, who knows? Might have to chase up Poor Law records for Ireland - ?place of birth and longest residence maybe, rather than where she was married and spent shorter time with her soldier husband.
We have spent lots of research time on the child Mary Kenny and her grandparents - have found a very vague possibility for a 14 year old servant in Argyll in 1881 Scottish census... but really too vague - and no sign of grandparents.
Will have to spend time on Irish Poor house possibilities - and would be glad of any comments on this... but do really appreciate your input so far.
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When Jane made her Relief application in 1870, and the "Settlement" was "Ireland" - the only further statement dated the same day of application was "Offered Poorhouse by Indoor Inspector, did not come in". No mention at all of any financial assistance.
"Settlement - Ireland" just means that for whatever reason she and/or her husband had not lived long enough in any parish in Scotland to be entitled to claim relief in that parish.
If she was offered relief in the form of admission to the poor house, and refused it, the usual thing was for her to be struck off the roll, which means that the parish where she applied for relief closed the file and had nothing more to do with her (unless and until she reapplied at a later date).
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Any Northern Ireland experts out there?
Sorry to be resurrecting this story again, but forgive me if I have asked and been given the information re Northern Ireland Poor Law relief application records.
Need to check for ancestor Jane Kenny (Ms McNab) who could have applied for Poor Law relief in County Tyrone (her birth area) - some time between 1867 and 1872. Have tried to do a search on PRONI for these type of records... but can't figure out their site - keep coming up with articles about Poor Law Records, but can't figure out how to search for them?
again, my sincere apologies if I have already asked and been told how to do this!! Help is much appreciated!
Maggs
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Hi Maggs
Similarly to Scotland/Lanarkshire area, sounds like these types of searches for NI have to be personal searches.
Some info here www.proni.gov.uk/your_family_tree_series_-_13_-_poor_law_records.pdf
See also here for background www.workhouses.org.uk/Ireland/
Monica :)
ps: This question is likely better placed on the NI RC board...so that people with experience there can comment best.
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Thanks for the link Monica, and also to ?moderator for moving this query to Ireland General.
I am thinking that the only way I can find if my Jane Kenny (McNab) made a Poor Law Application when she revisited Ireland is to email PRONI and ask if they will do a search (I live in Australia). I cannot find any other option on their website.
Have spent ages this afternoon, working out her "residences" timeline from a Poor Law application she made in Glasgow in 1872, and from that I can now say that the time frame I am looking for her stay back in Ireland would have been late 1870 till late 1871. She came originally from Longfield, County Tyrone so presume any PL application would be there, and not Tipperary where she and her soldier husband got married and she had her child - she wouldn't have stayed in Tipperary for much more than 18 months or so in total .... not enough for "settlement".
So - will email PRONI and hope for the best?
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Hi,
Unlike England, the Poor Law Ireland act did not restrict applicants to only get aid from their own parish. Thus there was no Removal Order system in Ireland. Thus Jane Kenny could have applied for aid anywhere in Ireland and it was up to the local workhouse Guardians whether it was granted or not.
Regards
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She came originally from Longfield, County Tyrone so presume any PL application would be there, and not Tipperary where she and her soldier husband got married and she had her child - she wouldn't have stayed in Tipperary for much more than 18 months or so in total .... not enough for "settlement".
So - will email PRONI and hope for the best?
The parish of Longfield East is in the Poor Law Union of Omagh. Longfield West is in Castlederg. So those would be the two sets of records to focus on in Northern Ireland.
The Poor Law records there are on microfilm (and cannot be accessed on-line) so as has been said, a personal visit is required. PRONI may look them up for you, but check the cost first. They charge something like £16 for every 15 minutes work.
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Hi Kingkerswell and Elwyn,
Thank you both for your contributions. Hmm.. Every time I find anything about this ancestor, it just generates more and more questions.
Re the Poor Law Ireland - not being restricted to a specific parish... means she could have gone anywhere (Co. Tyrone, Tipperary and Limerick being options)... So, does this mean that PRONI only does the Co. Tyrone records? Would I have to contact the equivalent Dept. in Eire for the other two areas?
Which then brings me to the other question of the records not being online, and if PRONI have to search for me, it could cost a fortune.
It is one of those pieces of the jigsaw which could help break down my main "Brickwall".. the Irish origins of my main branch... Who knows, - one day???
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Hi,
Unlike England, the Poor Law Ireland act did not restrict applicants to only get aid from their own parish. Thus there was no Removal Order system in Ireland. Thus Jane Kenny could have applied for aid anywhere in Ireland and it was up to the local workhouse Guardians whether it was granted or not.
Regards
I've seen references in Board of Guardian minute books to people being refused assistance as they were not of the poor law union in question. I don't know though if this was just local practice or if the refusal had a legislative basis. Is there a legislative basis for the statement that aid decisions were up to to Boards in receipt of applications?
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Hi,
See reply No. 10 http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Ireland/ This is my understanding of the workhouse system in Ireland. In the years 1846 - 1850 ( famine) there was massive pressure on the workhouse system so guardians may very well have been very selective on who was admitted.
Regards
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Thanks Kingskerswell. Just did some quick Googling. There does seem to have been basis for refusal in Ireland, early on at least in the Poor Law regime:
'Provided always, that in any case where there may not be sufficient accommodation for the relief of all the persons applying for relief whom the guardians shall deem to be destitute poor, the guardians shall relieve such of the said persons as may be resident in the union before or in preference to those who may not be so resident.' From Section 41, Poor Law (Ireland) Act, 1838 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1838/en/act/pub/0056/print.html
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Hi Sonas and Kingskerswell,
thank you both very much for these links, which make for fascinating reading. Still taking it all in!!
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I think the WDYTYA episode with Brian Blessed mentioned his family (the orphaned children) being sent back to London due to Poor Law Relief.....
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Hi Erin,
I didn't see the Brian Blessed show - where were the children sent back from. The links given to me above make for very interesting reading, re how England and Irish rules varied.