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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: chrisaaaaa on Tuesday 05 August 14 15:42 BST (UK)
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My family tree has lead back to this lady from Canonbie, from census I have parents as James (1792 Canonbie) and Mary (1798 England), she has a sister Mary whose wedding cert is on ancestry giving as Mary Young as the mother this then agress with baptism for Elizabeth.
Mary Young born in England around 1798 gives way too many possibilties so might be a dead end.
James Dickson/Dixson/Dixson around 1792 in Canonbie is not that straight forward either, there seem to be a number of James Dicksons born around that time in Canonbie.
I think it is one of;
James Dixon (1792) - parents - James Dixon and Elizabeth (Betty) Knox.
James Dixon (1791) - parents - James Dixon and Mary Ershman/Earshman/Ershment.
James Dixon (1795) - parents - Simon Dixon and Mary Tinning.
Any one of these James could have married Mary Young, but which...
For a little more fog, James Dixon and Mary Young seemed to get married twice, there is one in Langholm in 1809 (a bit early) and another in Canonbie in 1828 (a bit late).
I think the second marriage is the right one, the census shows children Robert and Sarah in 1821 and 1826, then James in 1829, my guess that Robert and Sarah are children of James brother, the James and Elizabeth pairing has a Robert in 1789, then dads name was used for the first born boy.
I have just about convinced myself, but cannot help thinking there are plenty of James Dixsons around, is there a specialist here, with a good family tree for this lot?
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Have you checked James' death cert to see what names are given for his parents?
'In memory of James DIXON joiner who died at Hollinhirst 23rd Febry 1862 aged 69 years...'
Wife Mary Young died in 1867?
'Also of Mary YOUNG wife of the above James DIXON who died 19th Octr 1867...'
www.longtown19.co.uk/canonbie_churchyard_c___g.56.html#Canonbie%20Churchyard)?
I can't see the full transcript of the gravestone, but looks like a photo may be available of this stone.
Images for the two death certs will be available on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
Monica :)
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Thanks Monica,
Excellent info, I wonder why now I google it and get the same info, but did not before?
I cannot work out the photos, it seems to say look in album 6 but there are only 3.
It is a shame that James was first in the grave, so parents are still unclear, I will search the other bits on that site.
If it is the right lot, I will not find Elizabeths grave on that site, she died in NZ.
I have not tried scotlandpeople, it seems to have unbounded costs with no guarantee of success, hopefully ancestry will buy them.
Could I ask a cheeky second question? The marriage that links ED into my tree is one that crept in from the 'family tree' feature, I cannot find this one - is it something obvious to you?
William Pringle Marriage to Elizabeth Dickson
1848 23 Jun Age: 24
Teviothead, Roxburghshire, Scotland, United Kingdom
Thanks
Chris
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Chris, have to admit, I am a HUGE fan of Scotlands People ;) The problem with all pay to view sites is if you are going in blind, searching for people with very little detail. it can then become expensive with numerous wrong certs ( :'( as I know, from my early days).
However, you have specific dates for the likely deaths of James Dixon and Mary Young. The units/credit you buy on SP last for a year before becoming inactive, until you buy some more. For £7GB you will get 30 credits. It will cost 6 credits each for the two death certs, leaving you with 18 more credits for another time. Good/great value :) English/Welsh BMD certs cost each £9.25 ::) v. £1.40 for Scotland (up to certain cut offs). Promo over ;D
I have tried to find other people for you researching this family line, but not really seeing anything that will add to the info/tree you already have so far...
I think the photos available on the site I linked are available for free (?). I could see at least 2 albums/800+ photos on these. Too many to go through really individually. You could email and make enquiries?
Monica
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I might take the plunge on scotlandpeople I have a few ancestors in Scotland where I know a lot of detail, but I got the impression they use credits for anything more than a surname search.
I put all the Dixon/Dickson BMDs from the cemetery inscriptions into a small family tree on ancestry ("Dixon/Dickson family in the Canonbie cemetery") to make sense of it.
From this I can see that James Dixon and Mary Young were parents of kids from 1820 to 1840 certainly physically possible, however it makes the 2 marriage entries more mysterious.
One was too early (either married in early teens or had kids into 50s) and one is too late (maybe he was already married and first couple for Mary Young were from a long term affair). Neither scenario sounds likely.
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William Pringle Marriage to Elizabeth Dickson
1848 23 Jun Age: 24
Teviothead, Roxburghshire, Scotland, United Kingdom
Sorry, Chris, missed your comment yesterday.
I cannot see this marriage showing on the Old Parish Registers (OPRs) for marriages. Remember, this is all before the start of official registration in Scotland from 1855.
However, there are two possible sources for this info. 1855 and the first year of official registration had the registrations of BMDs running over two pages of the registers. This was cut back by 1856. William and Elizabeth look to have had an 1855 birth https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ2M-9VP (unnamed, maybe baby died soon after?). For 1855 birth certs, this should include date and place of parents' marriage, and lots of other great info relating to parents such as age and place of birth of parents, etc. This info was not included from 1856 until the early 1860s, when parents' date and place of marriage was re-introduced on the birth registrations.
Monica
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Excellent idea, not on my direct line but perhaps good clues.
I believe it was Francis who was still around 20 years later, I had not found his birth record before so I think it is him rather than a twin who died immediately.
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I thought I would have a go at the scottishpeople website.
So I entered
Statutory births
Forename = ""
Surname = Pringle
Dates = 1855-1869
That got 949 hits
So I filtered by Dickson - 1 hit
by Dixon - 0 hits
I narrowed it down to Ross and Cromarty - that wiped out the hit I had.
There should be 7 kids in that range.
I experimented with * as a forename and got nowhere.
Have you any idea what I did wrong?
Chris
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I think I get it, the basic search does not like me
Doing it the adv way gets 6 hits in Ross and Cromarty.
Surname:Pringle && (regyear:1855 || regyear:1858 || regyear:1862 || regyear:1860 || regyear:1864)
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Chris, you can't search statutory births with mother's maiden name. Not sure if this is what you meant when you say:
So I filtered by Dickson - 1 hit
by Dixon - 0 hits
I narrowed it down to Ross and Cromarty - that wiped out the hit I had.
There should be 7 kids in that range.
I experimented with * as a forename and got nowhere.
I looked for the entry we had here on Family Search https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ2M-9VP and it does seem to show on SP. Just one entry showing for a male Pringle b. 1855 in Lochcarron.
Pre 1855, I can only see one entry in the OPRs:
Isabella 1852 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VQ79-J77
There is also a Jane aged two showing in 1851 with her parents?
Post 1855, and on the statutory registers and will be available to view as images on SP, looks to be:
Male child https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ2M-9VP as we have discussed
William 1858 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ65-M32 must have died young as name reusued in 1862.
Thomas 1860 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ65-MZ9
William 1862 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ65-M3P
Margaret 1864 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQMB-K4Y
David 1867 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ12-PV6
However, as you have already, 1861 shows some more children:
William Pringle 36 shepherd
Elizabeth Pringle 32
Jane Pringle 12
Isabella Pringle 10
Robt Pringle 8
Francis Pringle 6
Thos Pringle 10 Months
Address: Bottacks, Fodderty
No further children after David b. 1867. So, 9 children for them with one early death of William b.1858.
Interesting that Elizabeth's parents' names don't feature amongst their children's names.
Monica
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See you now have the transcription of the gravestone at Canonbie...reads like a family bible!
Good confirmation that Robert, from 1841, was son of at least James (if James' marriage to Mary Young was possibly a second marriage).
James Dixson 45 joiner
Mary Dixson 40 b. England
Robert Dixson 20 joiner
Sarah Dixson 15
James Dixson 12
Betty Dixson 10
Ester Dixson 8
Mary Dixson 5
John Dixson 3
Thomas Dixson 9 Months
Address: Bowholm, Canonbie
Monica
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I have the 1855 cert now, it confirms the date for a boy (Francis) and has the marriage date 3 days later than I had.
It has both WP and ED born and married in the same place, but it is not something I can read.
Shows 2 girls and 1 boy alive, and that this boy is EDs 4th, which all stacks up.
The only problem is that she said she was 27 when the ED I thought she was should have been 25 - oops...
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But ED was not born in the same place as WP was she :-\ I did note the 1851 census saying she was a Roxburgh girl, 1861 not clear from the transcript and 1871 showed Canonbie didn't it.
Can you take a clip of the image with the name place from the cert? You can't add the full image due to copyright, just clips for help with deciphering etc. If you need help with this, just send me a personal message with your email (I will respond with mine). Happy to then add this clip for you here.
Monica
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Hi Monica,
Thanks for the help so far, yes I got birth date and place from census data, shame it does not match neatly to the cert, and yes the lack of parent name handing down had occurred to me, I assumed I had missed a kid, perhaps a twin someplace.
I have attached snippets here, should be safe from the copyright police. I guess one day they will swoop on all the shared docs on ancestry and demand cash, maybe ancestry should negotiate a waiver for all users, but then maybe they should properly implement hiding some pictures.
Ta
Chris
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Another suspect bit in the records is the space between births, Mary Young had
James - 19 Mar 1829 - Canonbie, Dumfries, Scotland
Elizabeth - 27 Dec 1829 - Canonbie, Dumfries, Scotland
Elizabeth must have been premature.
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Odd :-\ Elizabeth and William's places of birth and marriage as you have on the 1855 cert are the same aren't they. Looks to me to be something like Kenmore...but that can't be as Kenmore is in Perthshire.
Hopefully someone may be able to determine better. You could also do a new posting, with the snippets you have, on the Deciphering and Recognition board here www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=425.0 to ask for additional help.
Francis 1855 birth place in Lochcarron also escapes me (but there are so many good people here on RC who are great on local or deciphering skills!). This is a good guide to place names in Lochcarron, just for reference. Useful feature is that it also links to maps. See www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/place-names/Lochcarron?class=parish&county=Ross%20and%20Cromarty
Monica
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Can I ask, have you been able to confirm William P and Elizabeth D's parents in any way? Not sure what details NZ death certs included at that time.
Monica
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I only have the parents from the birth transcriptions on ancestry.
I thought Kenmore as well but did not want to cloud your judgement, the transcriptions have Teviothead and Canonbie.
I will try it on the other board.
Ta
Chris
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I got a further birth cert, for William 1862 and posted the place name in the deciphering forum, the hope was to get a definitive place name for the parents marriage.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=695081.18
It looks like Bathdeannyshield to me - sound like anywhere near Teviothead?
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Hi Chris
Have to admit, can't make out the writing easily either on that cert :-\
To me, it looks to start with Southdean.... Can't make out the tail of the word, or whether there is a further small separate word at the end.
There is a Southdean parish in Roxburghshire, see www.bordersfhs.org.uk/southdean.asp
Let's see what others make of it.
Monica
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The last bit might be "shire".
The bit underneath that I cropped just says "Danl Scott Registrar" in case anyone thinks I chopped a useful bit.
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From general google info, Daniel Scott seems to show as the Registrar in Fodderty in that period of the 1850-60s. This obviously fits well with William's birth there that you have in 1862 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ65-M3P
Monica
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Chris, a beatiful script on son David's birth in 1868:
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Place names of Teviothead www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/place-names/Teviothead?class=parish&county=Roxburghshire
There looks to be a few Southdean references there, that could well fit with the 1862 ref from William's birth reg.....including a Southdeanrig Shiel (hurray - I think that is what shows in 1862!).
Some details here http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/180340/details/colterscleuch+shiel/ You can click on the map on the page....nice sheepfold showing just below ;)
Monica
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Well done Monica, excellent detective work.
When it says where they married I thought it would be the name of something big enough to have a church, ie where they got married, not where they lived.
I like this site for the maps, it has a slider to see what is there now.
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=55.33678&lon=-2.90413&layers=B000000000FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
Dad William was just to the east in Pleaknowe, the time slider works much better there.
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=55.35097&lon=-2.75133&layers=B000000000FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT
Thanks
Chris
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Chris, church weddings were pretty unheard of in those days ::) More of a 20th Century thing that crept in over time. This is a great site if you are interested in reading up on the history of civil registration in Scotland and social history www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=578172.0 The period you are looking at now is pre 1855, but a fascinating read regardless. Will be interesting and more relevant for the later research you have.
In those times, it was very common to marry in the bride's home or the local Manse. It may be that Elizabeth's family home was not the location (we still have issues don't we due to not being able to fully confirm either WP or ED's parentage with anything more than Family Search so far).
Where is the reference to Dad William being just to the east in Pleaknowe. I can see I think William Snr and wife Jean with children here in 1841 www.maxwellancestry.com/census/41transcript.aspx?houseid=78506001 The look to have still been there in 1851. Phaup seems to also have been known as Fawhope...with once again a lovely sheepfold nearby! www.rootschat.com/links/019b1/ - link shrunk from NLS maps site (great maps aren't they :))).
Monica
Added: 1851 entry here www.maxwellancestry.com/census/51transcript.aspx?houseid=80901003
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For William Snr, showing with a Roberton birth place, this is his christening entry https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VQH3-98V His father Adam, also a shepherd.
Maybe William Snr was married before? Son Adam shows as born c. 1821 and Jean Reid's marriage to William Snr shows in 1823.
This may be the granddaughter Margaret Pringle/Hume who shows in both 1841/51 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT1J-2MN
So many shepherds in this line of Pringles ::) Helps to firm up the line for WP in the absence so far of actual physical records on parents.
Monica
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Pleaknowe...do you mean WP? This entry from 1841? www.maxwellancestry.com/census/41transcript.aspx?houseid=79001023 The most obvious (with the usual rounding down on age for the 1841 census).
Monica
PS: I am obsessing with your lines :P Sorry. Nice relief during busy schedule ::)
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Chris, trying to shake your tree to see if we can find any more links to help you...
I think Adam, who shows as eldest in 1841 (called after William Snr's father) is likely the son from a first marriage for William Snr. This I think is his entry https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT1J-4P8
I don't think he married a Jane Little as you have on your tree...I think he married a Mary Cavers:
www.cults.freeserve.co.uk/ancestry/dougfam/pafg03.htm
26 F vii Mary CAVERS was born on 23 Aug 1812 in Castleton, Roxburgh. She died on 30 Aug 1872 in Newcastleton, Roxburgh. She was buried 1 in Castleton, Roxburgh. Mary was counted in a census in 1851 in Teviothead, Roxburgh. She was counted in a census in 1861 in Castleton, Roxburgh.
Mary married Adam PRINGLE on 23 Dec 1844 in Castleton, Roxburgh. Adam was born in 1818 in Cavers or Teviothead, Roxburgh. He died on 12 Oct 1884 in Castleton, Roxburgh. He was buried 1 in Castleton, Roxburgh. Adam was counted in a census in 1851 in Teviothead, Roxburgh. He was counted in a census in 1861 in Castleton, Roxburgh. He was employed as Shepherd Tollkeeper and General Labourer. He was counted in a census in 1881 in Castleton, Roxburgh.
www.cults.freeserve.co.uk/ancestry/dougfam/pafc03.htm
Jane DOUGLAS
1Gravestone Transcript.
"Castleton, Roxburgh
In memory of John Cavers who died at Newcastleton 1st April, 1846 aged 77. Jane Douglas his wife who died 24th June, 1855 aged 83. Beatrice their daughter who died at Gross Isle, North America 3rd August, 1834 aged 28. James their son who died at Ramsay, North America 13th December, 1841 aged 31. Jane their daughter who died 10th July, 1841 aged 24. Mary their daughter and wife of Adam Pringle died at Newcastleton Townhead Toll Bar 30th Augt 1872 aged 58 years. Adam Pringle died 12th October 1884 aged 66 years."
Monica
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To firm that up, for Adam Jnr, son of William and Mary (Purdon):
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Son/Sibling Adam is a diversion...but just to finish off for him.
The other Adam and wife Jean Little show at Borth Cottage No 4, Wilton in 1851. I thought this might be this Adam before marriage with parents in 1841 http://www.maxwellancestry.com/census/41transcript.aspx?houseid=81002074... Borth Cottage and Borthaugh Cottages...likely the same?
Anyhow...back to your very fun to research Pringles and Dixons ;)
Monica
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James Dixon (1792) - parents - James Dixon and Elizabeth (Betty) Knox.
Changing lines to keep things fresh and alive....
This is the right entry for James :) Wife showing as Mary Young and reported by son Robert.
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You have my 30 units and I am off line shortly...much enjoyed the searches ;)
This is what I referred to much earlier, when you are lucky to have much more precise dates for seaches, SP is amazing as you simply go in there and pick up the exact images you need ( :'( does not always happen...but lots of work from everyone here to make sure it did).
This is the parents' details for Mary Young/Dixon from 1867, widow by now of James Dixon. Mother Ellen (Helen etc.) maiden's name unknown. Again, son Robert reported her death. Bare this in mind for her English birth heritage searches...
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Many thanks, going way too fast for me, I shall have to write that lot down to digest it.
I had come across some of the extra William Pringles, at least 2 in the same area turning out kids with the same names at the same time. You probably saw "other William pringle" in my tree as I tried to model it.
I struggle to understand why they rounded ages in 1841, if only they just rounded down, sometimes they seem to round up.
In addition to Adam early on I think there was Janet 1817, and that she was the mother for Margaret (abt 1840) while she was unmarried, later on I think she married ? Hume.
You must have used some SP credits, is there a way I can pass you some of mine?
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Hi
I have just read the Family Search wiki about Teviothead Parish. Regarding the OPRs it states that there are births for 1824 - 1854 but that no marriage records have survived. Unfortunately it goes on to state that no Kirk Session records have survived.
There is an interesting page about the parish on the Borders Family History Society site. Apparently the 1841 census for the parish was lost. Worth a read. Google Teviothead parish and you should find it.
William
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So no chance of finding any OPR entry for the marriage in 1848. Thanks William :)
Chris, re the grandaughter Margaret, from earlier I think these were her details:
This may be the granddaughter Margaret Pringle/Hume who shows in both 1841/51 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT1J-2MN
Mother Mary Pringle may not have married James Hume. The reason I say this is that young Margaret shows as Hume in 1841 and Pringle in 1851. Not uncommon for illegitimate children to go by the name of their father at any time in their lives. Not certain though.
Monica
PS: Ha, you have this already pinned down as I can see it all written up on your tree. You have been busy these last 12 hours or so ;D
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...no marriage records have survived...
Thanks William, that explains why I could not find it.
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Yes Monica, I think I have it straight now, I am a night owl as they say, either that or late at night is the only time I get any peace :)
I tried having Mary and Jean married to William at the first pass, but I got overlapping birth dates for the kids, no doubt fooled by the weird 1841 age rules.
Ta