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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Louth => Topic started by: AngelaRohlfs on Wednesday 06 August 14 05:49 BST (UK)
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My great great grandfather is listed in our family bible as being James Mathews, born 29 Mar 1869 in Blackrock, Dundalk, Ireland. He married Mary (unknown surname) born 7 Apr 1869 in Blackrock... they were married 5 Nov 1888 in Haggardstown.
I have them as having 3 children --
Annie Mathews born 5 Oct 1889 in Birkenhead England (who married William Loftus at Redhill Surrey England on 1 Nov 1910)
John Mathews born and died in Liverpool (no dates in bible)
James Mathews born 29 May 1892 and died 18 July 1900 in Liverpool.
I found record that James then married Margaret White in the April May June 1909 register in Toxeth Park. They then traveled to San Francisco, CA USA where they had my great grandma Margaret Mary Josephine Mathews on 1 Apr 1915 and Desmond James Mathews on 11 Nov 1918.
James died in San Francisco on 29 May 1930 and Margaret died after him...
The problem is that I am unable to find any info on either of their parents... I have no names and no living relatives that know... I believe my aunt may have more info (she has the family bible) but she is unwilling to look and it took me YEARS before she would even pull the bible out to give me the info... I am going to order a copy of the marriage cert in hopes that (a) they even still have it and (b) it will list parent names... anyone out there that has my missing link?
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Familysearch has a number of possibilities for the birth of James Matthews in 1869 a couple of which name both parents:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01999/
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This looks like his marriage
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYWJ-S2P
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Possible wife
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYWN-GQQ
Page number is missing on this one so still possible
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYWN-LJ6
Of course I could have missed one or two
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Thank you both so much! I have spent so many hours .. Days... Weeks... Etc lol trying to find something new! I had seen all the James Mathews on that site.... I hadn't found a Mary! Thank you! thank you! :D
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OK so I found the 1901 census for England shows Toxeth Park district (this is where Mary and James jr died) and it shows James at 35 years old and Mary 30 years old... that is different from what my bible says... which one would be most likely right? I believe the bible was Annie's because on the inside cover it said "Loftus, 51 Salisbury Road, Wavertree, Liverpool, England" Annie married a loftus so it only makes sense that she started the bible... could she have been wrong on dates of birth? *sigh* lol one step forward... two sideways! I am ordering the marriage license/certificate for James and Margaret in England 1909... hopefully it squares away some questions!
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I found the California death index for James Mathews... he died 5-29-30 in San Francisco... I KNOW that part of everything to be true (lol) but... the show age at death as 69! That would give a year of birth as 1861! =/ How accurate would that age be?
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Not sure if it applies to 1901 but I know on some of the English census the age was rounded up or down to the nearest 5. Ages can vary wildly on census depending on who filled them in and the impression they wanted to give.
Personally I'd be more inclined to believe what's in the bible, although you have to always bear in mind that people could be a bit vague about their age back than.
Death age depends on the informant, they may not have known and gave their best guess.
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:) that was my thought! I also thought about it.... If they asked my great great gma his age for the death cert she may have replied that he was born in 69 and they mistook that for age rather than year of birth?
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1930 San Francisco Census
James Mathews' is recorded as being born c1866, married at age 44; Margaret - c1875; married at age 35
Immigration date: 1914
1920 San Francisco Census
James Mathews' is recorded as being born c1870; Margaret - c1875
Immigration date: 1908
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I see that James and Margaret are buried in Colma, California. If you do not live in that area, I can phone the cemetery office to see if they have a year of birth for James, if you like?
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Thanks Lisa! Yes I recently found they are in Holy Cross cemetery in Colma... My great grandma, great grandpa and grandma are all buried there also... I have tried calling but they won't answer any questions like that over the phone... I am going to have to make the trip down there... was planning on doing it in the next few weeks! =) I appreciate you!
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So... no headstone... =(
BUT!!!!! I received the marriage entry from Liverpool for James marriage to Margaret White... both fathers names are John and both fathers were fishermen... John Mathews was deceased as of the date of marriage (May 21, 1909)
James was listed as a 43 year old widower and licensed victualler with an address of 350 Scotland Rd, Liverpool and Margaret was a 35 year old spinster barmaid with an address of 10 Upper Parliament st, Toxteth Park... I have tried to look up the Scotland rd address with no luck and the building no longer stands =( I am considering ordering the marriage licence from James' first wife Mary in Ireland in the hopes that it may give a new tidbit of information... any other ideas???
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I think I have found that James mother was Margaret McGuinness and he had a brother John... I have a Jas Mathews (head), Mary (wife), Anne (daughter) and John (brother) in Birkenhead England in 1891 =) I think I might be getting there! Does anyone know how to find info on "fishermen" in Ireland? Is there anywhere I can search that might give me info? Was that a "good" job to have back then in Ireland?
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A fisherman would be much the same as a farmer, a farmer would at least have land one could track.
I've read over this thread again and must admit I'm totally confused. I tried drawing it up but it's not helping, so I don't know if I even have a suggestion I could add.
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Lol... It is driving me so crazy to have so much info but can't find.any answers! Everytime I get another bit of information it seems to create more questions than avenues to search! I greatly thank you so much for your time!
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Maybe this will help...
John Mathews - fisherman died before 1909 had a son James Mathews born 1866-1869 in Blackrock, Dundalk who married Mary in 1888 &moved to England by 1889 where daughter Annie was born in Birkenhead. They also had sons James and John who were born and died in Liverpool (James born 1894 & died in 1900... No info on John) Mary died in Toxteth Park in 1908 & James married 2nd wife Margaret White in 1909 where entry of marriage showed both James and Margarets fathers were fishermen named John and that John Mathews was deceased. James and Margaret came to San Francisco in 1914 & had my great grandma Margaret born 1915 & my great uncle Desmond James in 1918. James died.in 1930 from pneumonia, emphysema and myocarditis.
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There weren't very creative with names lol that perhaps is why all the confusion... Too many different Johns James and Margarets
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I keep getting stuck with James married second wife Margaret White in 1909.
Is this James born 1866/69 father of Annie, James and John?
If so you have
John Mathews m ?
In Ireland
Their child James m Mary ?
Go to England
Their children Annie, James, John.
Mary ? Dies
James marries again to Margaret White
Go to America
Their children
Margaret, Desmond.
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;D Yes!! Lol exactly! I think John (eldest) had James (eldest) with Margaret McGuinness but not confirmed yet
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James' first wife.
Going back to page one I posted a likely marriage and 2 possible Mary's.
You didn't get that marriage cert, (well you have no real need of it)
I had a look on RootsIreland and there is a marriage for James Mathews to Mary Richardson 1888 Haggardstown RC. which matches your bible. So considering she is not direct family I think this can be considered sorted.
Now where did the name Margaret McGuinness come from for James' mother?
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I found.a James Mathews born 1866 to John Mathews and Margaret Mc Guinness ... They 2 sons... James in 1866 & (yet another) John born 1868... I found in the 1891 census in England a Jas Mathews with wife Mary, daughter Anne and brother John in Birkenhead and although I haven't yet confirmed it I am thinking this is my James b 1866, 1st wife, daughter and brother and ages listed are accurate... Am going to order marriage cert for aforementioned James and Mary you posted in the hopes I can get more info for James even though Mary isn't mine
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Unlikely you'll get anything more on that marriage cert, his mother's name won't be on it.
Where did you find that James born to John Mathews and Margaret McGuinness?
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I have that information at home and will let you know after 6 Pacific.time =)
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I'll be fast asleep by then ;D
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Well I wish you sweet dreams and thank you again for everything. The info will be here when it's most convenient for you.
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I did a search on Familysearch using the parameters James Mathews born 1866 - 1866 (this date has consistently come up most often even though family bible says 1869) in Louth, Ireland with a fathers name of John Mathews and the only one that comes up is one with Margaret Mc Guinness. Then I searched Margaret McGuinness and saw where John Mathews and she had 2 sons... a James Mathews born 1866 and a John Mathews born 1868. I found the 1891 England census that has a Jas Mathews (head) Mary (wife) Anne (daughter) and John (brother) all in Birkenhead with correct ages and I know that Anne was born in 1889 in Birkenhead. I haven't had the opportunity to see the census itself to make sure all are at the same location... I am currently going off the index. But, if I have it correct that would make the following correct
John Mathews m Margaret McGuinness and had children John (1868) and James (1866) m Mary ? and had Anne (1889) John and James (1894) then m Margaret White in 1909 and had Margaret (1915) and Desmond (1918)
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The extracted Irish births on www.familysearch.org aren't complete so it's not a good idea to base your Irish research on the basis of the most likely records found there.
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:( ok... I will keep digging... That's why I was hoping that John (eldest) being a fisherman would help lol but it really doesn't lol I thank you again for your invaluable info!
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As Aghadowney said it would be unwise to get too excited by this couple but that doesn't mean they are not worth looking at.
With that in mind I tried RootsIreland again
John Mathews and Margaret McGuinness baptised a John in Haggardstown RC in 1868 but I can't find a James in any parish until I take out Margaret, than with John Mathews as father and mother McGuinness I get James 1866 Haggardstown RC but there is also another child in 1864.
Felt it was worth a search credit so the other child is Anne and the name for all 3 is spelt Matthews. (Which would be the usual spelling in Ireland)
Interesting indeed.
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KMQR-FK1
could this be a brother
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bsurname%3AMathews%20%2Brecord_country%3AIreland%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1864-1880~%20%2Bfather_givenname%3Ajohn~%20%2Bfather_surname%3Amatthews~%20%2Bmother_givenname%3Abridget~%20%2Bmother_surname%3Afinigan~
sorry about the long link i dont know how to shorten it yet.
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Could be the wrong couple but
In Griffiths Valuation print date 1856 in Haggardstown Parish, Village of Blackrock in section 65 which is the Main Street facing the sea there is a Philip McGuinness with a House and garden at 26 and a John Mathews with a house and yard at 33.
There are several other Mathews on the same street.
As this John Mathews doesn't have even a garden never mind land how does he earn a living?
No proof but oh so tempting.
Of course your John probably wasn't even married by than so he may not even be listed, more likely one of the Mathews on the street is his father.
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WOW!! Ok... well... how common is it for families to name each generation after the previous generation? lol If Margaret McGuinness is mine then there's a Margaret and a John having a James a John and an Anne and that James having a James a John, an Annie, a Margaret and a Desmond... Then that generation Annie had a James and a Desmond... and that Margaret had a Desmond maybe the name Desmond will get me somewhere? lol
Also... would the answer to the question (as to where income would come from) in previous post be the fact that John was a fisherman?
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It all sounds great but could be totally incorrect.
First thing I'd do if I was you is get a look at that Census in England.
One step at a time.
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ok... checked out census and yes they are all at the same address... then I really dug for info... I hope this makes sense... When James Mathews (b 1866ish) & wife came to the U.S. I found the passenger info... they were going to his cousin's in San Francisco. Cousin James (but of course lol) Crosby with an address of 459 30th st. I searched that info and there was in fact a James Crosby at that address... that got me thinking... Crosby's parents names (IF he were truly a cousin) would be a sibling to John or Margaret McGuinness... found his fathers name is Thomas and mother Bridget (1901 Ireland census cross referencing his brother Nicholas who was reflecting on a California census)... so there was a Patrick James Crosbey born at right time to Bridget McGuinness Crosbey... I am now trying to locate a McGuinness family with both a Bridget and a Margaret... lol
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What does the Census say for Where Born?
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James Mary and John born in Ireland Annie born in Cheshire Birkenhead
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RootsIreland again.
There is a Margaret McGuinness born 1843 and Bridget born 1850 Harggardstown RC. I got Bridget's age from the Census than looked for the closest Margaret. There is a Margaret in 1856 but she would be too young to be James' mother in 1866.
No idea if these two women are sisters.
This I assume is the Crosby 1901 Census you referred to
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Louth/Haggardstown/Blackrock_Town/1562556/
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Yes that is the census and very cool! I thank you so very very much! You are amazing!
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Oh
Ann Crosby's mother Bridget McGuinness
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FG6R-C2Z
Patrick James
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPTX-8F8 this one doesn't say Louth.
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RootsIreland again.
There is a Margaret McGuinness born 1843 and Bridget born 1850 Harggardstown RC. I got Bridget's age from the Census than looked for the closest Margaret. There is a Margaret in 1856 but she would be too young to be James' mother in 1866.
No idea if these two women are sisters.
This I assume is the Crosby 1901 Census you referred to
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Louth/Haggardstown/Blackrock_Town/1562556/
These two are NOT sisters Bridget's father is John, Margaret's isn't. It was going too well.
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Lol... And I thought I was on a roll! Lol this is the furthest I've gotten in 11 years... I am determined to get somewhere lol!
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Oh
Ann Crosby's mother Bridget McGuinness
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FG6R-C2Z
Patrick James
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPTX-8F8 this one doesn't say Louth.
Could it be that the South is a typo for Louth? I know my family bible references Blackrock, Dundalk, Louth
Also... The Finigan is not mine... I searched it out... this is what I found out...
James Matthews
Birth: January 24, 1868 (24 Jan 1868) - Louth, Ireland (reasonable yes)
Marriage: 14 Feb 1892 - Manhattan, New York, USA (married to mary at that time and living in England)
Death: May 15, 1926 (15 May 1926) - New York, USA (no, mine is in SF, CA)
Parents: John Matthews, Bridget Finigan
Spouse: Margaret Breen (mine is Margaret White)
I appreciate the info though!
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Could it be that the South is a typo for Louth? I know my family bible references Blackrock, Dundalk, Louth
Good thinking.
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FB75-QJ4
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That's the one im hoping is mine lol and there it says Dundalk! =)
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Dundalk is the Registration District.
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What does that mean?
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My excitement was because it saying Dundalk would confirm the South being a typo for Louth... I can still be excited right? Please say yes lol
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http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/Ireland-civil-registration.html
Scroll down to Louth and you can see Dundalk is one of the County's Reg Districts.
The result that said South was a Baptism church record, the one saying Dundalk is a Birth Cert.
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The town of Blackrock Louth comes under
County. Barony. Civil Parish. PLU. Provence
BLACK ROCK T. xx Louth Upper Dundalk Haggardstown Dundalk Leinster
So Blackrock comes under the Civil Registration District of Dundalk
So yes you can still be excited.
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Oh! Awesome! And yay! So I can order a birth cert?! That would answer questions... But could be throwing money at wrong guy... Grrrr the aggravation!
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Not sure what questions you think the birth certificate would answer but the extracted record giving the birthdate and names of parents was posted earlier-
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPTX-8F8
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note the ref id p860 which refers to the page number which is the same on both
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You don't need that cert.
Time to pull back and look over what you have and see if any avenue was missed.
There is no point in following another family which could lead you the wrong way entirely.
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James Mathews should have a birth cert, why haven't we looked for it. :o
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There are quite a few to choose from between 1866 and 1869
1866 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FY5F-CZV
And the rest
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01a1c/
There are two death which might rule out the two 1869 births as we know out man didn't die in Ireland. One of the births at least but which one.
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Crud and clovers! Ok... You're right... I found an obit listing for the James Crosby in SF, CA... I will see if I can get a copy of that and maybe it will list "preceded in death by parents ______ &_____" and confirm names.that way....
I can't confirm a dob or anything other than James dad was John... That was what led me on the mcguinness route to try to approach from a different avenue
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Family Bible says March 29 1869 in Blackrock but i havent found a single one anywhere with that date and marriage entry and census info reflect that it would have been 1866 so I went with that...
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Family Bible says March 29 1869 in Blackrock but i havent found a single one anywhere with that date and marriage entry and census info reflect that it would have been 1866 so I went with that...
You were looking for Blackrock not Dundalk.
You could start buying Certs and hope only one has a father John.
I modified my last post BTW.
Now adding to this one you do have the date 29 March which should help.
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Ok... As soon as im home from work I will start over and see where I get =)
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FamilySearch is acting funny today, on the link I posted above the number of births has increased, when I first linked it there was only 7 with some deaths straight after, had trouble with it earlier as well. Weird.
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Lol good to know im not losing my mind... Lol! I noticed that last night when I was poking around on there! I was chalking it up to being tired. Lol
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I was having a think as I walked to work, it's a short walk. ;D
The people in the GRO (where you order certs) are very nice.
If you give them the Page and Vol Numbers and year of all the possible John Mathew births and tell them you only want certs with father John and if one has a date of 29th March that is the only one you want.
What ya think?
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That would be amazing!
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Okay so,
I'm at work now for a couple of hours so I'll have a look into that later and get back to you.
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Thank you Sinann! You're the best!
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Hi, I hope you have been able to make some progress in your search. Because of my DNA results, I have reason to suspect that my Matthews family could have originated in County Lough as well, and was wondering if any of your male Matthews ancestors have done DNA testing yet? Do you know of any that might be interested? I'd love to figure out if I match genetically with the Matthews families of County Louth.
Best regards,
Gerry Matthews
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This search stuck in my head.
Thought I had something there but on second thought I hadn't
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Ops
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Forget it so
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John Matthews Blackrock Haggardstown 1866
Tara
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Sinann I think the Finnegan scenario was discounted based on this.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2W25-DNF
OP said her James died in 1930.
Tara
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Was the McGuinness theory the last 'best one' ?
Tara
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29th March 1869 (In Bible)
v
14th March 1866 (Family Search)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F51V-23P
As we all know, years are often way out but the month is a good match ;D
Tara
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A Margaret Matthews of Blackrock will.
A daughter called Anne Matthews who married an Edward Dullaghan.
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014903/005014903_00231.pdf
Sinannn, didn't you say that you found a daughter called Anne to John Matthews and Margaret McGuinness ???
Tara
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Looking Good
Here is Anne in 1901, in the right area and married to Edward a FISHERMAN !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Louth/Haggardstown/Blackrock_Town/1562577/
Tara
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Anne again in 1911.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Louth/Haggardstown/Haggardstown/579179/
Tara
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Possibly Edward
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Dullaghan&GSiman=1&GSst=1218&GRid=110698944&
Tara
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Edward Dullaghan and Anne Mathews marriage
First name Edward
Last name Dullaghan
Registration year 1883
Registered Quarter/Year Jan - Mar
Registration district Dundalk
Volume 2
Page 748
Tara
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Edward Dullaghan 1888
Tara
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This appears to be Margaret's death.
First name Margaret
Last name Mathews
Birth year 1840
Registered year 1889
Registered quarter/year Jan - Mar
Registration district Dundalk
Volume 2
Page 672
Tara
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James' Baptism Here
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632579#page/151/mode/1up
Tara
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John Matthews 1868 baptism
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632579#page/160/mode/1up
Tara
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Anne Matthews 1864 baptism here
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632579#page/145/mode/1up
Tara
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John Matthews & Margaret McGuinness 1862 Marriage Here
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632580#page/34/mode/1up
Tara
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My second great grandmother was Anne Matthews married to Edward Dullaghan. Please see my tree on Ancestry...where would we link in? The Crosbys, Matthews, McGuinnesses, Dullaghans were all interconnected and fishing families in Blackrock...Noel Sharkey's book 'haggardstown and Blackrock' will give you a good insight, life was tough for them.....
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Both Annie's dad and brother were killed in 1871 on rough seas....whilst fishing
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He is my 2 x uncle!! :)