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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: DeeWhy on Sunday 10 August 14 06:46 BST (UK)
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Can anyone offer assistance in clarifying a problem I have with a Ramsay family residing in Perth, Perthshire in trying to locate a possible death record of a John Ramsay 1839-40. A John Ramsay married Mary Ann Bell on 5 July 1830 according to the Dundee Marriage Register. They had a daughter Lillias who was born in Perth in 1837 and a son Alexander born in Perth 9 March 1840. A record of Alexander’s birth states he was the son of the late John Ramsay a Tailor residing in St John Street, Perth and was registered around 1860 due to the fact that statutory registrations did not commence until 1855. Therefore did John Ramsay, die before Alexander was born in 1840 or did he decease just prior to the time when Alexander’s birth was registered in 1860?
The 1841 census reveals that John Ramsay 55, occupation Tailor, Mary Ann 27, Lillias 4 and Alexander 1 were residing in the civil parish of Perth, West Church. If John Ramsay was 55 in 1841 he would have been 44 when he married Mary Ann who would have been only 18 or 19. Therefore was John Ramsay actually Mary Ann’s father-in-law? Lillias died 28 May 1843 age 7 in Dundee, Angus and according to her burial register her father was described as John Ramsay, Tailor. When Mary Ann died 22 September 1865 in Dundee she was described as the widow of John Ramsay Tailor. Could father and son both been Tailors? To add to the confusion when Alexander married in 1864 in South Shields, Durham his deceased father was described as a Seaman the same as Alexander. Could this have been entered incorrectly? Given the number of errors I have previously encountered in registration documents if John Ramsay died just prior to Alexander’s birth was the John Ramsay age 55 recorded in the 1841 census actually be Alexander’s grandfather?
(There was a John Ramsay born in the parish of Couper Angus, Perthshire 20 May 1808 with parents John Ramsay and Janet Crichton who could possibly have been Alexander’s father.)
Incidentally I have been unsuccessful in locating any of the family in Scottish or English census records for 1851 or 1861.
If anyone can shed any light on this quandary I would be most grateful.
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Hi DeeWhy
What is the source for this info?
A record of Alexander’s birth states he was the son of the late John Ramsay a Tailor residing in St John Street, Perth and was registered around 1860 due to the fact that statutory registrations did not commence until 1855. Therefore did John Ramsay, die before Alexander was born in 1840 or did he decease just prior to the time when Alexander’s birth was registered in 1860?
What were the details on Mary Ann Bell/Ramsay's death registration? Who reported her death, age, parents' names, her occupation?
Sorry, lots of questions always isn't there :P
Monica :)
Added: Are these parent details correct for Mary Ann? www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=562703.0
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Lillias, as a name, was obviously an important family name maybe? Apart from the Lillias you have born in 1837, there looks to have been another Lillias who also died young. Can't tell can we if the right family as we are just working off some key data at the moment. This is what is on the database.
Ramsay Lillias 21 Dec 1834 22 mth Dundee Inflammation of Lungs Dr of John Ramsay, Tailor
www.fdca.org.uk/pdf%20files/HowffR01.pdf
Not sure if connected (given family not yet found in 1851):
Ramsay Euphemia 11 Jun 1854 7 yr Aberdeen Inflammation of lungs Daug of John Ramsay, Tailor Blinshall Street
www.fdca.org.uk/pdf%20files/HowffR01.pdf
What is the source for the birth details you have for Lillias 1837 and Alexander 1840?
Their 1841 census that you have shows them as all born in the county of Perthshire (if correct):
John Ramsay 55 Tailor
Mary Ann Ramsay 27
Lillias Ramsay 4
Alexander Ramsay 1
Address: South Street, Perth
Monica
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To add to the confusion when Alexander married in 1864 in South Shields, Durham his deceased father was described as a Seaman the same as Alexander. Could this have been entered incorrectly?
Daft I know.... ::) On Alexander's marriage reg, did father John show as 'sailor' rather than seaman? Just because sometimes, the way clerks wrote this up, sailor and tailor get confused with the style of writing...
Monica
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They had a daughter Lillias who was born in Perth in 1837 and a son Alexander born in Perth 9 March 1840. A record of Alexander’s birth states he was the son of the late John Ramsay a Tailor residing in St John Street, Perth and was registered around 1860 due to the fact that statutory registrations did not commence until 1855. Therefore did John Ramsay, die before Alexander was born in 1840 or did he decease just prior to the time when Alexander’s birth was registered in 1860?
If Alexander was born in 1840 this would suggest he was a different Alexander to the one whose birth was registered in 1860. There was no procedure set up in the Civil Registration system for recording the birth of those born before Civil Registration began.
The 1860 entry states that this child was the son of the deceased John Ramsay a Tailor suggesting that this John died sometime between conception and the birth. This would give a death date around 1859/1860.
It was not unusal in families to "recycle" names of children who had died but if the 1841 census data is the correct family they appear to be too old to be the parents of the child registered in 1860
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1861 census has Mary Ramsay age 50 living in Anderson Place, Dundee with son Alexander Ramsay age 25, an engineer. Both born in Dundee. Can't find them in 1851, though.
Have you accessed the 1860 birth certificate on ScotlandsPeople? I agree with Falkyrn that that wouldn't have been the registration of an 1840 birth. What does the birth certificate say?
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Is this them in the 1851 census:
1851 census: William Street, Dundee, Forfarshire (Angus), Scotland
Mary Ramsey Head Widow Female 38 1813 Nothing Dundee
Alex Ramsey Son Unmarried Male 15 1836 Scholar Dundee, Forfarshire, Scotland
Eliza Ramsey Daughter Unmarried Female 15 1836 Scholar Dundee, Forfarshire, Scotland
William McLarn Lodger Unmarried Male 34 1817 Engneer Perth
Jas Fleming Lodger Unmarried Male 19 1832 Merchant Clerk Newington
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Thanks to everyone for your interest in this subject.
Firstly Monica. Mary Ann Bell/Ramsay’s death registration was reported by her brother-in-law (someone) Rodger, her age 54, parents John Bell farmer and Sarah Bell nee (unreadable.)
The source of Lillias’ birth is the 1841 census where she is reported as 4 years old.
The source of Alexander’s birth is a copy of his birth registration on scotslandspeople web site.
I believe there is no connection with Euphemia Ramsay family.
Alexander’s marriage certificate shows deceased father John Ramsay’s occupation as a Seaman and not a sailor.
Secondly Falkyrn. The scanned copy of the document recording the birth of Alexander in 1840 has been cut short on the right hand side. However it states:-
“Registered this thirteenth day of December ----
authority of a relative tenant by Hugh Aneslay ----
Sheriff Substitute of the County of Perth dated 8th ----
1860”
“Entry transcribed at Perth twenty sixth day of June 1861.”
I guess the question is what document was the information transcribed from. If it was from a church register it is possible there is a register in the same church which may contain a record of John Ramsay’s death in 1839-40.
Thirdly JM Strachan. I have reviewed the 1861 census record you refer to however the ages and birth districts do not compare.
Fourthly buckhind. As above the ages and birth districts do not compare.
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The additional information helps provide a little clarity - although the situation is rare.
(upon a Sheriffs warrant and payment of a fee any birth which occurred in Scotland between 1800 and 1855 can be recorded in a "Register of Neglected Entries")
For some reason around 1860 this Alexander Ramsay either needed or wanted to prove his parentage and to clarify that situation you need to check to see if the court documents exist - they have the potential of being a gold mine of information.
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Falkyrn thankyou for this vital piece of information. If the court documents in fact do exist where are they likely to be located. As I am based in Australia what would be the possibility and procedure for accessing them?
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Falkyrn, is this the type of document you mean? www.scotlandspeoplehub.gov.uk/research/register-of-neglected-entries.html
DeeWhy, maybe you could add a clip/image here from this entry you have for Alexander?
Also, because you never know where the clues will help most, from Sarah's death cert, the section with the informant's detail (Roger, brother in law) and parents' names, particularly to try to determine Sarah's maiden name. If you need help with this, let us know :)
Monica
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Do you know where Mary Ann Bell was born? It looks like her sister Sarah was born in England if the couple showing in Dundee on the 41 census with son Robert age 9 are the pair showing here:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XB8M-3V9
If we knew where she was from perhaps it would help to find the family in 51?
Jen
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Couple of things to add..PO directories
Perth - 1837 through to the 1850s I can only see a James Ramsay (tailor) but he's on Canal Crescent. On South Street there's a Miss Jane Ramsay (teacher).
Dundee - same period also no sign of a John Ramsay (tailor).
William Ramsay (the cabinet maker) also had a daughter called Lilias (one L) same age as the wee lass in Perth. He is also married to a Mary...and living in the Overgate in Dundee - he's the dependable sort and can be found on the 41 census and in the directories.
I thought the 80+ year old Lilias Ramsay living Dundee on the 41 census might be a Fairweather who married John Ramsay in 1782 but she's not - that Lilias died in 1834. Not sure who the elderly woman is - don't think she's the Lilias who married George Ramsay in Fowlis in 1775 but she could be and that could her daughter born in Fowlis who dies in 1829 age 50. You have to think Lilias features here unless it's a huge red herring...
Monday 11 September 1843 , Morning Post , London, England
Died - "At Dundee on the 28th ult. Miss Lilias Ramsay daughter of the late Sir James Ramsey, Bart of Bamff"
Jen
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Falkyrn, is this the type of document you mean? www.scotlandspeoplehub.gov.uk/research/register-of-neglected-entries.html
Yes that's the one ..... I had a vague recollection of such a system but couldn't remember the details. The only legal mechanism I was certain of was a Sheriff's order to insert a birth record over 3 months late in reporting - rather foolishly not realising they were the same thing :-[
The question is of course why Alexander Ramsay has gone to the bother (and expense) of confirming his birth date and parental details. There could of course be a simple explanation but it does raise some questions.
A quick look at the NAS online catalogue at http://www.nas.gov.uk/onlineCatalogue/ doesn't throw up anything obvious neither does the Edinburgh Gazette at https://www.thegazette.co.uk/.
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The only thing that I got from a NAS catalogue search earlier was this entry below. Only noted it because Alexander Ramsay and his future family were initially based in South Shields from 1864, where Alexander and his wife married.
From NAS: Victim Alexander Ramsay, near Lower Thames Street, South Shields, England.
Reference AD14/62/254
Title Precognition against Mary Grant, Agnes Smith, Margaret Bell for the crime of theft, habit and repute at Craig's Close, near High Street, Edinburgh.
Dates 1862.
Monica
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Thanks everyone for your interest.
Mary Ann Bell was born in Angus, Scotland according to the 1841 census.
Thanks for the tip on the PO books I have already checked those and drew a blank.
I have checked with ScotslandsPeople who advise that the documents from which the information was transcribed from for the RNE Register of Neglected Entries for Alexander would be held at the New Register House, Edinburgh and are only available to view in person. Perhaps there is some organisation that I could contact to arrange for a an inspection of the records for a fee. This looks like my only hope of possibly finding information on the death of his father John Ramsay
I have attached a copy of the RNE for Alexander's birth for interest.
Peter
Moderator comment - copyright image removed.