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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: Matt62 on Saturday 16 August 14 16:31 BST (UK)
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My 5th great grandfather Michael Welch (1800-1876) seems to have changed profession three times throughout his life. According to his son's marriage certificate of 1855 he was a 'Tallow Chandler' like his parents William and Ann. Yet according to an 1839 directory of Leeds, he is described as a 'Confectioner and earthenware dealer'. He was living at 141 Woodouse Lane with his wife Isabella Fawell and six children. I cannot read his profession in the 1841 census, where he is still living at the same address, yet it doesn't look to me like a 'confectioner'. I'll attach it to my next post in case anyone can help me read it.
Michael then crops up in Edinburgh in the 1851 census (a widow living with his six children) and is described as an 'Excise Officer'. On his son Thomas' death certificate in 1887 he is described likewise as an 'Excise Officer' yet on his own death certificate for 1876 in Aberlady, East Lothian his occupation is 'General Merchant'.
I'm not sure he ever was a Tallow Chandler like his parents, although his son seemed to think so. If he was, I assume it must have been before he became a confectioner.
My questions are:
1. Was it common to change job so often?
2. Is moving from being a confectioner in Leeds to an Excise Officer in Edinburgh not quite a dramatic career change considering that he was by then middle aged? Was this common?
3. What exactly was an Excise Officer's duties (I think it is like a civil servant dealing with customs and goods)?
4. Where might I find records relating to an Edinburgh based Excise Officer?
5. Could he perhaps have become one while still in England or might his move from Leeds to Edinburgh have been due to this new career?
6. Why does his death certificate call him a "General Merchant"? Could he have changed profession yet again?
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The 1841 census attached, Michael and his family at the bottom right (on page 2).
Image removed
I was not aware of the guidelines on Rootschat relating to census data, if anyone wishes to see the census to help me verify the occupation then please just PM me. Thanks.
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The 1841 occupation is, I think "Potter" which would tie in with Earthernware Dealer in 1839.
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The 1841 occupation is, I think "Potter" which would tie in with Earthernware Dealer in 1839.
Ah, that would certainly tie in then yes, thank you. I had thought it started with an "s" or "f", although I honestly just couldn't read it.
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Michael Welsh who married Isabella Fawell on 8 November 1827 at St Peter, Leeds is said to be a Tallow Chandler from the parish of St Luke, London. As the marriage was by Licence it is possible that the Marriage Bond and Allegation have survived - surviving Bonds are held at the Borthwick Institute in York. If it has survived then it is possible that age and occupation will be confirmed.
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Michael Welsh who married Isabella Fawell on 8 November 1827 at St Peter, Leeds is said to be a Tallow Chandler from the parish of St Luke, London. As the marriage was by Licence it is possible that the Marriage Bond and Allegation have survived - surviving Bonds are held at the Borthwick Institute in York. If it has survived then it is possible that age and occupation will be confirmed.
Much appreciated information Bumble, I will do a search online for the Borthwick Institute to see if I can contact them regarding the possibility of marriage bonds. :)
Now that it seems evident that he was indeed a Tallow Chandler in the 1820s, it seems incongruous to me that he then went on to become a confectioner, potter, Excise Officer and then a General Merchant. They all seem to be such different occupations!
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Website is www.york.ac.uk/borthwick and they are very helpful. Shame I didn't know about this last Monday - I was there looking at marriage bonds!!!!
As you know the date, venue and groom's name, it shouldn't be difficult for them to confirm whether the bond has survived.
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BTW may I ask Bumble, what is a marriage 'by license'?
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Website is www.york.ac.uk/borthwick and they are very helpful. Shame I didn't know about this last Monday - I was there looking at marriage bonds!!!!
Oh not a problem my friend, you have been most helpful in directing me here :) Do they do orders of digital copies? I live in Glasgow so it might be difficult for me to travel there at the moment (ie work).
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Not sure about digital copies, but certainly paper copies. :)
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Not sure about digital copies, but certainly paper copies. :)
Excellent stuff! :)
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BTW may I ask Bumble, what is a marriage 'by license'?
Common/Ordinary Licence - This could be obtained from any bishop or archbishop, Chancellor or Surrogate, and meant the Banns need not be read - and so there was not the minimum delay of two weeks.
A visit to the clergyman issuing the licence resulted in three documents, an allegation or affidavit, a marriage bond and the licence. Bonds were a very common legal device. By entering into a bond a person would agree for instance that a statement was true, for a marriage that there was no "lawful let or impediment" to the proposed marriage. If this was not the case a penalty was due to the church official concerned, if the marriage did not take place the bond was irrelevant. A marriage bond would mention the two people who wanted to get married, not just one. By the late 18th Century the penalty was £200. I would expect that they would not have to prove they had the money. After 1823 bonds ceased to be necessary.
You can see examples of a Marriage Bond, Allegation, and Licence at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,438148.msg3016813.html#msg3016813
The actual wording varied over the years.
A Special Ecclesiastical Licence from the Faculty Office of the Archbishop of Canterbury, permitted a marriage to be solemnised at any time and at any place, consecrated or not. Prior to 1755 both the Vicar General and the Master of Faculties were able to grant Special Licences, but after 20 January 1755 only the latter issued them.
Stan
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As usual, Stan has summed it up. So, if you didn't want to wait 3 weeks for the Banns to be read, or you didn't want the neighbours to know you wanted to marry, then you applied for a licence. :o I have personally found that bonds have given me additional information that would not be available from the parish records, which is why I advocate getting that information. :) :)
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Excellent information Stan and Bumble you have been invaluable helps :)
If I may ask about another of Michael's occupations, what is an excise officer and are there any records for Scotland between the years 1840-1870?
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Hi Matt -- once again our ancestors paths follow a similar direction -- tho mine are somewhat later than yours, so in this instance they are unlikely to have met.
My Mary Wainwright of Barnsley (a connection via marriage to the Trants we were discussing the other day!) married an Excise Officer, Michael Ignatius Giblin in Barnsley in 1862. They later transferred to Glasgow sometime between 1872 & 1875. Maybe there was a continual need for Excise Officers in Scotland that could not be met locally so transfers were common?
I can see a logical transition from tallow chandler (boiling up fats to make candles) to confectioner (boiling up sugar to make sweets etc) - a much more pleasant occupation!
And then, when he moves up to Leeds - he has to take whatever job he can get - as a potter, then selling the pots.
He then for whatever reason fancies a change of direction so becomes an Excise Officer -- as you say probably a civil servant type job collecting taxes etc
Then when he finishes that - he goes back to what he has done for a lot of his life - retail in a general store
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There is a National Archives Guide at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/excise-officer.htm You can search entry papers of Excise officers by name
Stan
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Hi Matt -- once again our ancestors paths follow a similar direction -- tho mine are somewhat later than yours, so in this instance they are unlikely to have met.
My Mary Wainwright of Barnsley (a connection via marriage to the Trants we were discussing the other day!) married an Excise Officer, Michael Ignatius Giblin in Barnsley in 1862. They later transferred to Glasgow sometime between 1872 & 1875. Maybe there was a continual need for Excise Officers in Scotland that could not be met locally so transfers were common?
I can see a logical transition from tallow chandler (boiling up fats to make candles) to confectioner (boiling up sugar to make sweets etc) - a much more pleasant occupation!
And then, when he moves up to Leeds - he has to take whatever job he can get - as a potter, then selling the pots.
He then for whatever reason fancies a change of direction so becomes an Excise Officer -- as you say probably a civil servant type job collecting taxes etc
Then when he finishes that - he goes back to what he has done for a lot of his life - retail in a general store
Dear Marmalady :)
Happy to see you again!
How interesting that there is a parallel development in the careers of our ancestors again - including a similar move up to Scotland. I should add that Michael Welch's son Thomas Fawell Welch eventually moved to Glasgow and died there in 1886.
As with yours being through marriage, my Michael Welch married Isabella Fawell, daughter of the Thomas Fawell we discussed the other day, who had been the surgeon and apothecary living as a neighbour of your Thomas Trant in Briggate, Leeds.
You describe the kind of neat and logical transition in his career that I was looking for. Indeed considering that your ancestors also relocated to Scotland, it would seem that there may well have been a need for Excise Officers up north that could not be met locally.
Fascinating and informative as before, thank you Marmalady.
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There is a National Archives Guide at http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/excise-officer.htm You can search entry papers of Excise officers by name
Stan
Thank you! I did a search on this the other day but couldn't seem to find Michael. I may try again, might tweak the name a little and see if anything comes up. I'm not sure if Scottish records are held there, nonetheless?
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Dear Matt62
I have just come across this post because I was doing a search for my 3 x great grandfather, Michael Welch. So I have registered with this forum to make contact, albeit 3 years down the line! His son Thomas Fawell Welch is my 2 x great grandfather.
My information seems much like yours except I do not know about his occupations prior to coming to Scotland. Like you I cannot make out the occupation on the 1841 Census.
What I can tell you though, if you do not know already, is that he is buried in Aberlady (East Lothian) Churchyard and I have visited it and taken a photograph of his headstone. I also have a newspaper advert re his shop and his death notice from the local paper. His son, Henry, and family are also buried there. If you want to see the photo and newspaper stuff just let me know. I've also been (this morning) searching the Sasine registers because Michael's son Henry seems to have bought a few properties in Aberlady, where they both had shops. Happy to share what I have if you think it would be useful.
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My 5th great grandfather Michael Welch (1800-1876) seems to have changed profession three times throughout his life. According to his son's marriage certificate of 1855 he was a 'Tallow Chandler' like his parents William and Ann. Yet according to an 1839 directory of Leeds, he is described as a 'Confectioner and earthenware dealer'. He was living at 141 Woodouse Lane with his wife Isabella Fawell and six children. I cannot read his profession in the 1841 census, where he is still living at the same address, yet it doesn't look to me like a 'confectioner'. I'll attach it to my next post in case anyone can help me read it.
Michael then crops up in Edinburgh in the 1851 census (a widow living with his six children) and is described as an 'Excise Officer'. On his son Thomas' death certificate in 1887 he is described likewise as an 'Excise Officer' yet on his own death certificate for 1876 in Aberlady, East Lothian his occupation is 'General Merchant'.
I'm not sure he ever was a Tallow Chandler like his parents, although his son seemed to think so. If he was, I assume it must have been before he became a confectioner.
My questions are:
1. Was it common to change job so often?
2. Is moving from being a confectioner in Leeds to an Excise Officer in Edinburgh not quite a dramatic career change considering that he was by then middle aged? Was this common?
3. What exactly was an Excise Officer's duties (I think it is like a civil servant dealing with customs and goods)?
4. Where might I find records relating to an Edinburgh based Excise Officer?
5. Could he perhaps have become one while still in England or might his move from Leeds to Edinburgh have been due to this new career?
6. Why does his death certificate call him a "General Merchant"? Could he have changed profession yet again?
Hi Matt62
Just came across your post whilst I was searching online Michael Welch+ Isabella Fawell.
Thomas Fawell Welch+Alison Smith are my gg grandparents and further up the tree we have Michael Welch+Isabella Fawell,then William Welch+ Ann Giffin.
I come in via Rebecca Alison Walker Welch, she is my great grandmother.
Would be great to swap notes, and anyone else on here that are related to the Welch family
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Robert Burns, farmer, poet & exciseman! somebody pulled a few strings to get him the latter. ;D (Scot', a gauger!)
Skoosh.