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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: bron63 on Monday 18 August 14 11:30 BST (UK)
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Hi I'm trying to find information about my great great grandmother Agnes May firth born 1862 in Cassius came from mudgee nsw she was adopted with her sister Mary Ann after their mother past away Frances jane firth in 1864 the girls FATHER may have aboriginal heritage Walter sherry mayor of mudgee took care of them until this time .can anyone look up record for this event would be appreciated as need verification of them being aboriginal
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There are no births registered to Frances FIRTH in NSW? I checked both Mudgee and CASSILIS. Her death IS recorded in Mudgee in 1864 however. Were the children born under her name or the fathers?
Formal adoptions did not begin in NSW until the 20th century so it is unlikely anything would be on public record. Until then most were just organised by a church or as you say by the local Mayor.
Neil
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On her marriage certificate her last name is firth, What we know of is when mother died Walter sherry and his wife took care of the girls . Agnes may was born in 1862 married William James baker in Mudgee 1882
died 30th June 1927 in Annandale nsw . Trying to find out the events from her birth until she got married 1882 its a mystery
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It is unlikely events of a girls life between birth and marriage would be on some sort of record that is available to view ???
If the NSW BDM was functioning with any kind of reasonable certainty then you may find a record of an earlier marriage, currently it is not and is practically impossible to use. Have you tried TROVE for any mentions, sometimes events in someones life have been noteworthy enough to reach the papers.
As for validating the girls aboriginality, this would be extremely difficult unless some history of the either the father or the mother were known.
Neil
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Hmm ::) off the OLD NSW BDM which,..... surprise, surprise is STILL working for me there is this record, which has a different mothers name?
AGNES M SHUGG, FATHER, JOHN C, MOTHER ELIZABETH AT CASSILIS REF # 6978/1862.
Neil
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Not much help but ...
here is death notice for Walter SHERRY http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14447785
and an obit which mentions he leaves a widow but no family :( http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14456449
regards,
Ros
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Other children born to this couple?
6978/1862 AGNES M CASSILIS
2956/1864 ANNIE GLEBE
3074/1867 EDWIN J GLEBE
3464/1869 ALFRED J GLEBE
9620/1860 EMMA MUSWELLBROOK
It is possible that the two children you mention were not those of John C SHUGG, but from a liaison between Elizabeth and another Man :o The other man, possibly FIRTH? Could be aboriginal?
Neil
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Neil that has nothing to do with them.
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OK ;)
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neil frances the girls mother was born firth she never married
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the father is aboriginal he was a stockman on a property in mudgee I was told in them days who they worked for they recorded them down as animal names not their real name I do know his name was johnny was born in 1841 in mudgee and died in 1875 in mudgee age of 34 is weird the mother and father died the same age. Mother died of suffication.
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HI Ros
Yes ive seen that but wasn't much help
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MACGOVERN AGNES MOTHER FRANCES AT WELLINGTON REF #13967/1861
MCGOVERN AGNES MOTHER FRANCES AT WELLINGTON REF# 13967/1861
PACKER AGNES MOTHER FRANCES AT WELLINGTON REF # 13967/1861
Neil
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Bron.
I am assuming you have the death certificate for Frances FIRTH
4656/1864 FIRTH Frances
Aged 34
At MUDGEE
The informant did not know her parents' names obviously, but what other information is included on it please?
Sue
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Hi Sue
information as follows on death registry
Ref No - 1864 / 4656 Name : Frances Firth DOB : 22 -08 - 1864 Death : Mudgee Place of birth Ireland Informant : S Moore Undertaker Mudgee Cause of death Suffocating Catarrh
Medical Attendant W King Date Last Seen: 22 - 08 - 1864 Burial : 24 - 08 - 1864 Minister and Religion ; Rev James Gunther Church of England Witnesses : Thomas Wesley , William Caplin
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lyn4_7 http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=198030.0 a member of RC has several threads on different websites about this family.
"Quote" from Lyn on the old MSM boards:
I do have Frances death certificate, as well as Agnes and Mary Anns birth certificates, on both the birth certificates states father unknown, and same goes for Frances death certificate.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019ic/
Have you asked Lyn about these Birth Certificates?
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It seems from the other post that ~MERLIN~ linked that they think this is your Johnny TAYLOR:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/30598617
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/122755915
There are lots of articles about his cricket skills, however this one from 1869 gives him an age much younger than your man:
"Johnny Taylor whom our Braidwood and Yass friends will remember well as a boy of fourteen playing with the Ginlnderra team against them, has lately returned to Gininderra, and is now nineteen years of age."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/101480294
Debra :)
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Merlin
Yes that's lyn my cousin she doesn't have birth certificates of the girls she got confused only marriage of agnes and death of mother she is still looking for answers aswell
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Hi Debra
Yes johnny taylor I looked into and read about him but years seem to be out.Is there anyone that can look to see if there was an agnes firth born in Bathurst cause that only 1 hour away from mudgee?
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All the family say she was born in Cassilis but no records have been found , but like said it didn't get recorded until 1867 I think it was.
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Is there anyone that can look to see if there was an agnes firth born in Bathurst cause that only 1 hour away from mudgee?
You can search the NSW BDM online yourself:
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/
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All the family say she was born in Cassilis but no records have been found , but like said it didn't get recorded until 1867 I think it was.
Can you explain the the above statement ???
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Family members say agnes was born in Cassilis but have no record of this. Births didn't get recorded till 1867 I think it was.
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Family members say agnes was born in Cassilis but have no record of this. Births didn't get recorded till 1867 I think it was.
The NSW Registry started in 1856 previous to that they were Early Church records 1788 to 1855.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh/bdm_rec.html
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Hi bron 63
Just to try to clarify my thoughts here.
Am I correct in saying the only certified information about the mother of the 2 girls being Frances FIRTH comes from the marriage and death certificates of Agnes May?
Who was the informant on Agnes' Death Certificate?
Sue
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Hi Sue
No I have copy of frances death certificate it has the girls on it Agnes May and Mary Ann.I don't have agnes death certificate I found her information on ancestry in the death index. I only have her marriage certificate,Her married name is Baker. Her sister Mary Ann married name Long. Can you tell me why in them days they put the mothers last name as in fathers on records. Walter Sherry Mayor of mudgee was a witness on Agnes May marriage and his wife Elizabeth Amy Nelthorpe tese 2 are the ones that took care of the girls after Frances passed away in 1864
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Merlin I seen you had put up a link saying you think this is our johnny Taylor I'm looking for but cannot see the link could you plz put link on here again
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Merlin I seen you had put up a link saying you think this is our johnny Taylor I'm looking for but cannot see the link could you plz put link on here again
I haven't a clue what your are talking about ???
All the links are posted in my replies on this thread you just need to click on them to open.
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Hi Sue
Did you find out any information on what I gave you on the death cert.
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Hi Merlin
Sorry about that about a link it was a page I was looking at for some reason it had your name and saying was a link , was a boo of mine.
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frances is definitely female looked at sex on death notice
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Hi Sue
Did you find out any information on what I gave you on the death cert.
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Hi Sue
Did you find out any information on what I gave you on the death cert.
No, I have nothing further to offer at this point.
I am assuming that the columns on the death certificate headed "Married or not", "When and where married" and "children living and dead" are all empty or "not known".
Is that so?
Sue
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in marriage section has place of marriage unknown age unknown name of spouse unknown children of marriage agnes 3 mary 18mths witness of death is Thomas Wesley , William caplin
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I have found that firth was her married named as it says on agnes death cert mother not listed and father - firth boundary rider we have come across an aboriginal family in the mudgee Cassilis region with the last name firth
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I have found that firth was her married named as it says on agnes death cert mother not listed and father - firth boundary rider we have come across an aboriginal family in the mudgee Cassilis region with the last name firth
So you now have Agnes' death certificate?
Correct?
When asked previously you did not have it. Have you since then sent away for it?
In the same way as you did for the Death Certificate of Frances FIRTH, could you look at each column on the death certificate and type the contents.
Here are 2 In Memoriam notices for Agnes BAKER
Can you account for everyone mentioned in them?
1928
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28052577?
1929
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16559375?
I think Alice E BOTTOM, who calls herself a sister to Agnes may have been a sister in law.
Here is amarriage
BAKER, Alice E. to BOTTOM, William in 1906 at Annadale #9381
And a possible birth-
Reg 21356 Yr 1950 BOTTOM Alice E
Parents George & Eliza at COOMA
Are these also the parents of Agnes' husband William James BAKER?
Sue
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alice eliza baker is my 2nd great grand aunt the one you have put up and married William bottom George and eliza is alice parents no there not the parents to agnes husband William, Blimey yes she is definitely sister inlaw it is on my tree as that. George & eliza my 3rd great grand parents Agnes mother & father inlaw, I only got cert on agnes last week another cousin sent to me.
Ok here is the information on agnes death cert
death transcription from NSW registry of bdm
rego number - 12948
Date of death - 30 june 1927
place of death - Duntroon hospital Johnston street Annandale
name - agnes baker
occupation - unknown
sex - female
age - 65
cause of death - failure of the hearts action whilst under an anaesthetic for surgical operation for multiple abscesses of the lung
duration - inquest Sydney 11 july 1927
medical attendant - f.w.fletcher city coroner
father - firth
Occupation - boundary rider
mother maiden name - not listed
informant - A.E.Baker, son , Hammond Avenue Ashfield Registered 1 july 1927
when buried - 2 july 1927
where - church of England cemetery rookwood
undertaker - ernest Andrews
minister - p . bazeley
religion - church of England
witnesses - a.e.baker , Arthur h shying
where born - mudgee nsw
time in colony or state - nil
place of marriage - mudgee nsw
age at marriage - 19
spouse - William james baker
children of marriage - agnes e 45 , albert e 41 , William g 39 , Sydney j 36 , Lillian m 34 , oliver j 26 , living 2 males 3 females deceased.
no other comments.
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SISTERS ???
MARY A MACDOWELL, FATHER ROBERT, MOTHER FRANCES E, AT WELLINGTON 13938/1861
MARY A MCDOWELL, FATHER ROBERT, MOTHER FRANCES E, AT WELLINGTON 13938/1861
AGNES MACGOVERN, NO FATHER LISTED MOTHER FRANCES AT WELLINGTON 13967/1861
AGNES MCGOVERN, NO FATHER LISTED MOTHER FRANCES AT WELLINGTON 13967/1861
AGNES PACKER, NO FATHER LISTED MOTHER FRANCES AT WELLINGTON 13967/1861
Neil
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Hi there,
Following on from the names from NSW BDM that Neil has found...
Back in mid to late 19th Century NSW, the electoral rolls were established and maintained by the local Police (many of whom were born ‘overseas’, long before compulsory education commenced in NSW so ‘correct’ SPELLING of surnames was NOT a high priority for them).
To be eligible to enrol you needed to be born in New South Wales, or otherwise be a British Subject either by birth or naturalisation. You also needed to be 21 years of age or over, and a MALE. Regardless of where your parents were born, or your parents ‘ethnicity’, if you were born in NSW, you were automatically a British Subject throughout all of the 19th century, and actually way into the 20th Century too. It did not become NOT compulsory to enrol until sometime in the 1920s.
So, back in the mid to late 1800s, some of the male British Subjects were eligible to vote in more than one electorate, as there were some property qualifications, but in general, if the man lived at the one address for longer than three months, or if he held a miner’s right, he would be eligible to enrol to vote. The police took the details down under directions of local Police Magistrates. This male universal franchise (dating from about 1858) did not exclude men who were of Aboriginal descent, and there are many examples of men listed on those early NSW electoral rolls to confirm that. I cannot confirm if the following chaps from the 1870 rolls were of Aboriginal descent. The Federation of the Commonwealth of Australia commences from 1901 and the Commonwealth Franchise Act of 1902 had an impact on the ways the electoral rolls were compiled in the early 20th Century.
NSW Electoral Roll for the electorate of WELLINGTON 1870 (covering much of both Molong and Wellington Police Districts)
John MCGOVERN, residence at Beri Creek (Wellington Police District)
John MCGOVERN, residence at Shepherd’s Creek (Wellington Police District)
Robert MCDOWELL, holding a miner’s right, at Ironbarks (Wellington Police District)
NO MENTION of the surnames FIRTH or PACKER on that 1870 Wellington roll.
NSW electoral roll for the electorate of MUDGEE 1870
NO MENTION of the surnames McGovern, (Macgovern), McDowell (Macdowell) Firth or Packer.
https://www.nla.gov.au/sites/default/files/family-history-sources.pdf
Re the 1927 death cert, I notice that Agnes' son was the informant. So it is likely he was providing that information to the funeral director at the same time as he was arranging the funeral and contacting the family and making all the arrangements and grieving himself. Perhaps FIRTH was a name that he remembered from his childhood, or perhaps it was a memory from one of his siblings. However, it may well be less reliable information than the first hand information that Agnes would have been asked to provide when she married.
So may I ask if you have an official transcription of her marriage certificate?
On her marriage certificate her last name is firth, What we know of is when mother died Walter sherry and his wife took care of the girls . Agnes may was born in 1862 married William James baker in Mudgee 1882 died 30th June 1927 in Annandale nsw . Trying to find out the events from her birth until she got married 1882 its a mystery
It is possible that there are blanks on that certificate, as many rural NSW marriage certificates from the 1870s and 1880s are not complete, BUT if it has the details of which church and which minister, then it is possible to follow up with that denomination and seek the church records of that marriage. The clergy always were required to ask for the details of the parents of the bride and the groom. Hopefully, if there's blanks, the following thread may help http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=546609.0
Cheers, JM
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alice eliza baker is my 2nd great grand aunt the one you have put up and married William bottom George and eliza is alice parents no there not the parents to agnes husband William, Blimey yes she is definitely sister inlaw it is on my tree as that. George & eliza my 3rd great grand parents Agnes mother & father inlaw, I only got cert on agnes last week another cousin sent to me.
Although it is not really relevant to your main query, I'm afraid I cannot make sense of what you have said here about the relationship between Alice Eliza BOTTOM and Agnes BAKER.
George BAKER and wife Eliza had daughter Alice Eliza BAKER who married William BOTTOM.
William BAKER married Agnes FIRTH
BUT (you say) William BAKER and AGNES BAKER are not siblings.
They have different parents.
However, you say, Agnes BAKER and Alice BAKER are sisters in law.
Sue
Sue
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Hi there,
ADD, yes, I am also a tad confused re that post describing the connection between Alice and Agnes
You are seeking info about Agnes prior to her marriage in 1882…. And you have Walter SHERRY as raising the two sisters, and that Walter was mayor of Mudgee….
So, here’s some info on a Walter SHERRY and likely brother George, at Mudgee…
NSW ER 1870 MUDGEE
George SHERRY, household, Gladstone St
Walter SHERRY, household, Market St
NSW ER 1878 MUDGEE
Walter SHERRY, freehold, Church Street
So, between 1870 and 1878, perhaps Walter moved from Market St (where he was renting) to Church St (where he owned the land) and perhaps continued to conduct his business at Market St ????
Greville Post Office Directory 1875
Walter SHERRY, tailor, Market Street
NSW State Records holds a Deceased Estate file for a W SHERRY of Mudgee who died 22 February 1902. http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=15&new=1
The Sydney Morning Herald 26 Feb 1902 SHERRY. —February 22, 1902, at his residence, Church- street, Mudgee, Walter Sherry, J.P., of the firm of Sherry and Nelthorpe, aged 72 years. http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14447785
Walter SHERRY mentioned as an Alderman at Mudgee http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/107173472? Evening News 19 Feb 1873. So he may well have become mayor once the girls were grown up as he was elected as an Alderman as per SMH 8 Feb 1890.http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28277488 … agh, here he is as the Mayor of Mudgee http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/113760892 Evening News 10 February 1892
It seems George and Walter were from the UK, as per the following cutting SMH 17 Jan 1860 “Walter SHERRY, late of Jersey, your brother George wishes to hear from you. " http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13035612
Cheers, JM
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the father is aboriginal he was a stockman on a property in mudgee I was told in them days who they worked for they recorded them down as animal names not their real name I do know his name was johnny was born in 1841 in mudgee and died in 1875 in mudgee age of 34 is weird the mother and father died the same age. Mother died of suffication.
and
information as follows on death registry
Ref No - 1864 / 4656 Name : Frances Firth DOB : 22 -08 - 1864 Death : Mudgee Place of birth Ireland Informant : S Moore Undertaker Mudgee Cause of death Suffocating Catarrh
Medical Attendant W King Date Last Seen: 22 - 08 - 1864 Burial : 24 - 08 - 1864 Minister and Religion ; Rev James Gunther Church of England Witnesses : Thomas Wesley , William Caplin
and
frances the girls mother was born firth she never married
and
in marriage section has place of marriage unknown age unknown name of spouse unknown children of marriage agnes 3 mary 18mths witness of death is Thomas Wesley , William caplin
May I please ask
:) HOW you know that Frances was born FIRTH
and also
:) HOW how know that she never married.
May I please mention that I am very NSW centric in my own family history research, (several generations of my families were in rural Central Western and Far Western NSW during most of the 19th Century and into the 20th) and I am not aware of any records showing Aboriginal people with ANIMAL names rather than their own 'real' names.
Have you researched the marriage of a Josiah TROWBRIDGE and a Frances FIRTH from 1853/4 ... This predates NSW BDM civil registrations. However, it is indexed on both NSW and QLD bdms, as it seems to be a marriage in that part of THEN New South Wales that was hived off in 1859 to become Queensland. There's many families who moved freely on the stock routes throughout rural NSW and QLD in the 1860s.... Perhaps there's a connection?
Cheers, JM
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Merlin
Yes that's lyn my cousin she doesn't have birth certificates of the girls she got confused only marriage of agnes and death of mother she is still looking for answers aswell
So, your cousin has Agnes' marriage cert. Would you please type up the info that that document, particularly what info (if any) is noted there for Agnes' parentage .... and Agnes' age and place of birth, and WHO gave consent for Agnes to marry, and Agnes' usual residence, and her status (spinster, widow) and the clergyman and denomination,
I will try to follow up once I have the details from that 1882 marriage cert. The info on the marriage certificate is of course FIRST HAND information provided by the bride and the groom. ALL the info is likely to be on the original parish register (if C of E, likely there's at least two registers to check) and not all that info would have been sent through to NSW BDM when Agnes married.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
I have been looking at some photos uploaded to a public tree at Ancestry. There’s six photos attached to Agnes May FIRTH on this particular tree. NONE of these photos give me any reason to consider that either of Agnes’ parents were of Aboriginal descent. Perhaps you should be contacting that tree owner to validate the photos and to share info.
Edit to note that I Removed the SNIPS. ;D
Cheers, JM
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Majam
I have them photos also in my tree under agnes no photos are of her parents is all agnes may the child photo you have put up aswell is Agnes May at 7 years old in this picture. Picture dated 1869 and your saying to me she doesn't have aboriginal features look closer.
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Majam
I have them photos also in my tree under agnes no photos are of her parents is all agnes may the child photo you have put up aswell is Agnes May at 7 years old in this picture. Picture dated 1869 and your saying to me she doesn't have aboriginal features look closer.
Yes, I am saying she does not have Aboriginal features. I looked closer. Please do check for the marriage cert for Agnes and also consider checking for Mary Ann's marriage cert too. I am happy to try to follow up with a search for the respective parish registers IF there's the usual blanks on these marriage certs from that era.
ADD, have you inspected the originals of those photos?
Cheers, JM
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also on agnes death and coroners report says father - firth boundary rider he was from mudgee so I don't understand your statement you put.
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I have nothing of mary ann - I have agnes marriage cert and her death cert and her mothers death cert
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Majm
I have already put certificates down on here if you look at all my chats to sue you will see them.
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sparrett sorry not sue
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also on agnes death and coroners report says father - firth boundary rider he was from mudgee so I don't understand your statement you put.
Not sure which statement you are referring to. But, you will find that the family history information on NSW certificates is informant driven. NSW BDM does NOT check if it is accurate, truthful or relevant. The Coroner relies on the informant too, when it comes to info about the deceased's parentage. The Coroner is far more involved in finding the legal aspects relating to the death, ... the cause/s of death. NO ONE checks, and if the person giving that information is a family member, then that person is grieving, and comforting other grieving family members and organising a funeral, and the significance of answering all the funeral director's questions means that the informant is relying on memory rather than checking on any "important papers" kept safe in a special drawer or place.
So, you have provided info from Agnes death certificate. I wrote
Re the 1927 death cert, I notice that Agnes' son was the informant. So it is likely he was providing that information to the funeral director at the same time as he was arranging the funeral and contacting the family and making all the arrangements and grieving himself. Perhaps FIRTH was a name that he remembered from his childhood, or perhaps it was a memory from one of his siblings. However, it may well be less reliable information than the first hand information that Agnes would have been asked to provide when she married.
Cheers, JM
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Majm
I have already put certificates down on here if you look at all my chats to sue you will see them.
I cannot find Agnes marriage transcription.
Cheers, JM
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Hi Sue
No I have copy of frances death certificate it has the girls on it Agnes May and Mary Ann.I don't have agnes death certificate I found her information on ancestry in the death index. I only have her marriage certificate,Her married name is Baker. Her sister Mary Ann married name Long. Can you tell me why in them days they put the mothers last name as in fathers on records. Walter Sherry Mayor of mudgee was a witness on Agnes May marriage and his wife Elizabeth Amy Nelthorpe tese 2 are the ones that took care of the girls after Frances passed away in 1864
I have again checked, I cannot see the marriage certificate transcription anywhere on this thread. (BAKER=FIRTH #5451 MUDGEE 1882 )
ADD
And Mary Ann's marriage certificate should be sought out, as a way of VALIDATING information about her parentage.... I am happy to check BOTH out together :) According to the SUBMITTED tree I looked at, Mary Ann married John LONG 24 Dec 1881, Gulgong, and Agnes May married William James BAKER 24 May 1882, Mudgee. BUT I am asking for the exact transcription of the actual certificates, I want to know what IS and what is NOT included on those certificates. That way I may be able to help you advance back to earlier generations.
I have nothing of mary ann - I have agnes marriage cert and her death cert and her mothers death cert
Cheers, JM
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I understand what your saying. That photo of the older one you had cut out from a photo of 3 the one that was on the far right was Lillian may agnes daughter the one behind was agnes emilly and the one on the left not sure who is reason being is because there is 19yrs diff between Lillian and her mother .
How do I upload photo on here? I will put all cert up and if you can help it would be appreciated.
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Please do NOT put up any NSW BDM certificates. Please carefully transcribe and type up the information. None of us want to get RootsChat into hot water for any copyright issues.
Cheers, JM
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yer I was going to do that I wanted to show you photos
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There's copyright issues for photos too, not sure what year, but if you were not the photographer, then perhaps best not to upload them either.
I will remove the snips I uploaded too, just in case. I saw all six photos on the Ancestry trees.
Cheers, JM
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:) I am sure you want to deal with facts rather than probables, so just take your time with the transcribing. It will be some several days before I can get to follow up offline on the likely elusive blanks on the marriage certificates.
Cheers, JM
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I understand what your saying. That photo of the older one you had cut out from a photo of 3 the one that was on the far right was Lillian may agnes daughter the one behind was agnes emilly and the one on the left not sure who is reason being is because there is 19yrs diff between Lillian and her mother .
A small point here if I may.
Lillian May BAKER's birth registered 1883
Reg 6306 year 1883 BAKER Lilly May
Parents William J and Agnes
At GLEBE
You have told us that Agnes was born in 1862
That is 21 years difference
Sue
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Agnes Mothers Death Cert this was given to me from a cousin that had someone searching for her it isn't a bought one.
nsw death registration transcription Ref No 1864/4656
Name - Frances Firth
Date of death - 22/8/1864
Place - Mudgee
Sex - Female
Age - 34
Conjugal status -
Place of birth - Ireland
Time in Australia colonies - unknown
Father - unknown
Occupation - unknown
Mother - unknown
place of marriage - unknown
Age at marriage - unknown
Name of spouse - unknown
Children of marriage - agnes 3 , mary 18 months
Informant -S moore , undertaker mudgee
cause of death -suffocating catarrh
length of illness -2 months
Medical attendant - w king
Date of last seen - 22/8/1864
Date of burial - 24/8/1864
Minister & religion - rev James Gunther , church of England
Undertaker - s moore
Witness -Thomas Wesley , William caplin
cremation date -
cremation place -
cremation imformant -
cremation religion -
cremation witness
Registered -23/8/1864 mudgee
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Hi Sue yep sorry for the 2 year miss calculation was trying to add up
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Agnes Mothers Death Cert this was given to me from a cousin that had someone searching for her it isn't a bought one.
nsw death registration transcription Ref No 1864/4656
Name - Frances Firth
Date of death - 22/8/1864
Place - Mudgee
Sex - Female
Age - 34
Conjugal status -
Place of birth - Ireland
Time in Australia colonies - unknown
Father - unknown
Occupation - unknown
Mother - unknown
place of marriage - unknown
Age at marriage - unknown
Name of spouse - unknown
Children of marriage - agnes 3 , mary 18 months
Informant -S moore , undertaker mudgee
cause of death -suffocating catarrh
length of illness -2 months
Medical attendant - w king
Date of last seen - 22/8/1864
Date of burial - 24/8/1864
Minister & religion - rev James Gunther , church of England
Undertaker - s moore
Witness -Thomas Wesley , William caplin
cremation date -
cremation place -
cremation imformant -
cremation religion -
cremation witness
Registered -23/8/1864 mudgee
NO NO NO, I am not referring to that NSW BDM death cert. I am referring to Agnes' marriage certificate. :) I want to know what info AGNES gave the clergyman when SHE was getting married in 1882. :) and what information the clergyman sent to Sydney HEAD OFFICE of NSW BDM.
Cheers, JM
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Agnes & Williams marriage cert
NSW Marriage Registration transcription Ref No 1882/5451
Groom -William james baker
Status - bachelor
Place of birth - not stated
Occupation - bricklayer
Age - not stated
Usual Residence -Sydney nsw
father - not stated
Occupation - not stated
mother - not stated
BRIDE -Agnes Firth
Status - Spinster
Place of birth -not stated
Occupation -not stated
Age - not stated
Usual residence - mudgee
Father - not stated
Occupation - not stated
Mother - not stated
Date of Marriage -24/5/1882
Place of marriage -st johns church mudgee nsw
Religion - church of England
Witness - walter sherry , Elizabeth amy nelthorpe
Minister - H T Bentzen
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Agnes & Williams marriage cert
NSW Marriage Registration transcription Ref No 1882/5451
Groom -William james baker
Status - bachelor
Place of birth - not stated
Occupation - bricklayer
Age - not stated
Usual Residence -Sydney nsw
father - not stated
Occupation - not stated
mother - not stated
BRIDE -Agnes Firth
Status - Spinster
Place of birth -not stated
Occupation -not stated
Age - not stated
Usual residence - mudgee
Father - not stated
Occupation - not stated
Mother - not stated
Date of Marriage -24/5/1882
Place of marriage -st johns church mudgee nsw
Religion - church of England
Witness - walter sherry , Elizabeth amy nelthorpe
Minister - H T Bentzen
AGH, right thanks, I will proceed with that. St Johns, MUDGEE is still there, and some of my family are regulars at that particular Anglican church.
As an aside perhaps may I mention that Agnes and William James BAKER were enrolled to vote for the Dec 1903 elections. This was the first time that females were eligible to enrol to vote. It was not yet compulsory to enrol.
NSW ER 1903 DALLEY, polling at Annandale
Agnes BAKER, of 183 Johnston Street, domestic duties
William James BAKER, 183 Johnston Street, bricklayer
ADD http://www.mudgeehistory.com.au/churches/churches1.html
Cheers, JM
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Agnes was only 3 when her mother died and walter sherry took care of the girls after that but got adopted out to someone
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cool
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Agnes was only 3 when her mother died and walter sherry took care of the girls after that but got adopted out to someone
Bron
Are you saying she was raised by another family, not Walter SHERRY and his wife Amy?
Sue
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Hi Sue
Sherry Mayor of mudgee was a witness on Agnes May marriage and his wife Elizabeth Amy Nelthorpe
No, Elizabeth Amy NELTHORPE was not the mayor's wife.
She was perhaps a friend as her birth year is similar to Agnes'
REG 11403 Yr 1866 NELTHORPE Elizabeth A
Parents James & Jane L
At MUDGEE
And death
Reg 16730 yr 1939 NELTHORPE Elizabeth Amy
Parents James & Louisa Jane
At MUDGEE
This couple had other children in Mudgee.
Sue
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Walter SHERRY was not the Mayor of Mudgee when the girls were little. I think you will find that Sherry and Nelthorpe was the tailoring business in Mudgee.
NSW SRO register of firms http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=48
Cheers, JM
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I was told so the story goes that after frances died walter sherry being mayor at that time took the girls in and they got adopted but im not sure about that bit on adopted as walter sherry is witness on agnes marriage cert
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well that clarifies that bit
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Jm
Am I allowed to email you photos?
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Hi there,
NSW ER 1870 MUDGEE
James NELTHORPE, householder, Market Street, MUDGEE
NSW ER 1878 MUDGEE
James NELTHORPE, freehold, Church Street, MUDGEE.
NSW ER 1903 ROBERTSON, polling at Mudgee
NELTHORPE, all of Church St
James, Tailor
Jane Louise, domestic duties
Minnie, domestic duties
Sarah Rose Harriet, domestic duties
Walter James, Church St, Tailor
From NSW BDM seems Jane Louise was married to James, and Walter James was married to Sarah Rose Harriet. So Elizabeth Amy, born 1866 was daughter of James and Jane Louise, so I agree with Sue’s comment.
Cheers, JM
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Jm
Am I allowed to email you photos?
I have had a very close look at those photos on Ancestry. I think you need to get to the originals of those photos before sharing them further. The one with Agnes aged 7, if that is definitely Agnes, then even her arms are a pale and fair complexion. Don't forget that sepia photos always tend to give the person a darker complexion than they actually had in real life.
Cheers, JM
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understand with that
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http://www.mudgeemuseum.com/?i=479/the-wiradjuri
Here's a link to many pages about the Mudgee district.
Have you or your cousin researched Walter SHERRY and his family? Earlier I posted info about a brother for him, George SHERRY. There's a George SHERRY who was in the Mudgee area in 1870 as he is on the electoral roll there, but not there in 1878.
May I suggest that you go back over this thread any check for each of the questions each one of us has asked you, and make sure you have answered these questions, even just to say "not sure"
I have phoned one of my Mudgee rellies, but it seems they are away for a week or so. I may need to ask you to send an email enquiry to the Reverend at St Johns. If so, I will let you know.
Cheers, JM
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read all this and did look at what was given to me.
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that on mcgovern frances we have been looking at aswell as didnt know mothers middle name only found out firth was the fathers name when I recieved agnes death cert not long ago.
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we cancelled out johnny taylor it was false.
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page 4 I responded to also
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Yes, I fully understand that Agnes' mother was born in Ireland, and that you have been led to believe that Agnes' father was an Aborigine. There are many instances where people in the early to mid 20th Century were ashamed of any Aboriginal heritage in their forebears. Nowadays it is hard to understand how why this occurred. HOWEVER, there are also many instances where people knew that their forebears paperwork showed them as "Native Born" and from those two words those people concluded there was an Aboriginal heritage. The expression "Native Born" simply meant the person was born in Australia, regardless of where their parents were born. My Grandfather's enlistment papers for the First World War show him as "Native Born". So too his brothers, and his cousins who also enlisted. None of them have an Aboriginal heritage.
I was born and raised in the central west region of NSW, and as my family settled in the western district of NSW in the early to mid 19th Century, and as I have family who have lived in the Mudgee region for several generations, I do have some practical understanding of how to help with research into 19th century NSW records, and I will try to help you. But it may well be that the boundary rider you are looking for, is simply a NSW born lad, of parents who had 'overseas' origins.
ADD
http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/collections/exhibitions/mudgee/about.html This link is also within the link I gave earlier. http://www.mudgeemuseum.com/?i=479/the-wiradjuri Perhaps you could contact the website to see if they have any knowledge about the two girls, their parentage, and where they were raised prior to their marriages at Gulgong and Mudgee. Perhaps you could contact the lass who researched her ancestor, Dianna MUDGEE as written about in that link.
Cheers, JM
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We have been doing back tracks of aboriginal firth from mudgee to pilligra.Also of war records and photos of them.
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On the War records it has them recorded from mudgee - pilligra areas.
Mary ann firth is in the bdm records and her marriage records to john long.
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Agnes and Mary were sisters. Their mother was Frances born in Ireland. We suspect their father was an Aborigine from the Mudgee district of NSW.
Cheers, JM
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that story of diana mudgee I need to question aiatsis ? I did read it story in canberra on her history
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On the War records it has them recorded from mudgee - pilligra areas.
Mary ann firth is in the bdm records and her marriage records to john long.
Which War records are you talking about ..... who ..... I would like to see how their birth places were notated on those records. The National Archives of Australia have digitised all the WWI service records, and many of the WWII service records. BUT these events are from the 20th Century, and we are looking for an Aboriginal man born circa 1841 at Mudgee. And you say he died in 1875, so decades before WWI.
Yes, re Diana MUDGEE you could ask AIATSIS for information as to how to research YOUR possible Aboriginal heritage and in doing so, please mention you have read the Diana MUDGEE info.
Cheers, JM
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how does someone else send you messages from my topic with you as my nephew is doing the research and sending stuff to me id rather it be direct from him?
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It confuses me isnt hard
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I said before we wiped johnny taylor out it was wrong information his date was 1841 to 75.When you said to me to answer comments or put unknown. So we have been working out before frances died and the girls being born and so on.
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All your nephew has to do is to log on under his RChat avatar and then use the reply button and post his comments just like I am doing now, any of the other RChatters who have contributed posts to the thread. RChat is a very public forum, and anyone can read what is on this thread, even if they have NOT signed on. So, you are the original poster, the person who started the thread. There's absolutely no reason why your nephew cannot post on your thread. He just needs to log on.
Cheers, JM
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thank you I let him know this his user name is werty perty so you know who he is
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majm how does he find the chat for him to type in our conversation?
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is ok he found it sorry
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I think he is lost lol
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Just posting this earlier thread to save further duplications of info and of eliminated info
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=198030.0
Here's his profile
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=233238
Cheers, JM
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no worries
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Hello Majm, I'm Bron63's Nephew, how are you.
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So, as you have eliminated the Johnny Taylor chap, have you considered any other possibles for Agnes and Mary's DAD ....
For example, have you looked at ordering any official transcriptions (around $20 each) for anyone with the apparent family name of ABORIGINAL as per the NSW BDM online index... Here's a small sample from that NSW BDM online index under their heading “Births” but actually its from their Early Church Records of baptisms:
John Chidd ABORIGINAL, son of Robert, and unknown mother. #3026/1848
John L Smith ABORIGINAL, son of Philip, and unknown mother #4230/1846
John Potter ABORIGINAL, son of John, and unknown mother #1219/1849
John T ABORIGINAL, son of Thomas and Nanncy #1864/1851
NONE with Firth as a given name.
Cheers, JM
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Welcome Werty,
You will find RChat is a great place for help with family history. I am in NSW, and it is after ten pm, and I have been on the puter for errr..... more than a couple of hours today. So, if I fade away, don't panic, I will try to help over the next few days.
Cheers, JM
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Werty,
May I ask if you have any NSW BDM certificates for any members of this family? If so, which documents do you have ? For example, do you have Agnes marriage cert (or official transcription) ?
Cheers, JM
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Thats ok, you'll have to excuse my typing skills, i have definitely put him in the not useful pile, the one from ginniderra i ruled out, but we did find one in mudgee. i have done the same with him for the time being while i sort the facts out, all the available documents we have have come mainly from up to 12 years of other family members research compiled together. i jumped in head first before and john taylor from what i can figure out has come from him being well documented and marriages between european and aboriginals esculated. im going to write you up an explanation of where im up to tonight and will post tomorrow night as it will take a while. Ive been relaying the info and it looks like its causing a bit of confusion. Am i able to provide you with all the written text details i have from death cert, marriage cert, im yet to copy her mothers stuff in but what ive printed so far might help.
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http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/fhu/start.html
I have been refreshing my grey cells and re-reading some of the pages at aiatsis. The following is part of the opening remarks under their heading "Family History"
"Have you decided to trace your family history but are unsure where to begin? Below are some suggested steps to help you get started with your family history research
As with all family history research, a good idea is to start with a blank family tree and fill in as many names as you can. A good way of filling in the blanks in your family tree is by searching the Birth, Death and Marriage indexes and certificates.
The names and information in your family tree can then be used to search indexes and other resources relating to Indigenous people and families. For more information on Indigenous family history resources see Resources."
And they continue on with many very good points and tips about family history research.
Werty,
:) If you have additional certs to the two that Bron has already posted, (Frances FIRTH's death cert, and Agnes FIRTH's marriage cert to William BAKER) then please to start with just a list of which ones you have.
:) Also, have you already checked with St Johns Church of England, at Mudgee re their parish register holdings from 1882 re those blanks on Agnes' marriage cert?
:) Also, have you a transcription of Mary's marriage to John LONG ..... and if so, what info does it give on HER parentage (fingers crossed the blanks are NOT blank, but have the info for you re her father !)
Cheers, JM (signing off for today, as I can see I am fading away)
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Im fading away aswell JM I, off to dream land have a nice sleep speak soon with the threads.
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Majm, we have photos of Agnes Firth, William James Baker and Lillian May Firth all together at some point in each photo. We have just gotten the datails we need from mudgee museum today and we are going to retrieve these transcripts, some have already been done. Death cert for Agnes has been done, going to check her mother Frances Firths one is good because we have an old one of that. marriage one as well for Agnes. got some of walters bdm registration numbers and Elizabeth amy nelthorpe. there are other photos that keep popping up from museaum and other family stuff as Agnes but i wonder if they are referanced to her and thats why they keep getting mixed up. We have photos of her with her family like i said so theres 2 that look like an irish lady and the other one is of lillian may Baker Agnes's Daughter, her daughter and an unknown person. Agnes was 30 years older than lillian so it makes that hard to believe that is agnes especially when compared to her family photos.
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Majm, Agnes Death certificate has Firth as Father and Boundary rider as occupation. In my searches i found that the greville p.o directory list boundary riders and names around cassilis Mudgee etc. i found an 1872 and 75 one so far, i got the hint off a post i read, he was a family transcription collector, he says its a good place to look as well if you get stuck but alot of them havnt been digitalised. Youll have a better picture once i explain what weve got and how some assuptions were made by some other family members which encouraged confusion, i was told the elders in queensland that were helping also thought johnny taylor but they found another 4 possible johns. The Aboriginal firths from pilliga i am just investigating because they have the last name, Agnes being in mudgee, Mary ann being in gulgong, and the heavy haulage trainline connecting the 3 towns, also the main road at the time.these two aboriginal anzac firths names are Francis Walter Bertie Firth and ernest his younger brother, their army enlistment records are available on tracking our anzacs. I found their parents marriage certificates for in coonamble and fathers name was Patrick firth and mother kate maccareny (McCarney) coonamble is a little bit south of pilliga, closer to mudgee. im trying to track that families movements. The Anzacs going off age in the army records make them born around the same years as Agnes's kids, so parents were most likely a similar age to Agnes as an assumption, too many cooincidences not to chase it up. with this in mind Patrick firths father or brothers could have been the father, only a research list of names, no solid links. Also found out mudgee and surrounding towns was also recognised as the country of wellington. Going off Frances's Death cert Agnes would have been born 1861 so im open minded to 1861 and 62. i found a birth registration that has 3 id's same registration number, same mum frances, same name agnes, same place wellington. last name 2 variatoins of mcgoverner and 1 packer. makes me wonder if this could be a farm birth record and Mudgee museum told mum today Frances married twice before Agnes was born, they found all the same photos and documents we have already but they were able to provide mum with more history info to help the search. im going to see if these last names come up under marriages to a frances around the general area. Hopefully i can have this other write up for you ready tomorrow but i have 2 young ones so if its not it will be up by the next night. Thankyou very much for your help Majm :) :) :)
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i found a birth registration that has 3 id's same registration number, same mum frances, same name agnes, same place wellington. last name 2 variatoins of mcgoverner and 1 packer. makes me wonder if this could be a farm birth record and Mudgee museum told mum today Frances married twice before Agnes was born, they found all the same photos and documents we have already but they were able to provide mum with more history info to help the search. im going to see if these last names come up under marriages to a frances around the general area. Hopefully i can have this other write up for you ready tomorrow but i have 2 young ones so if its not it will be up by the next night. Thankyou very much for your help Majm :) :) :)
These birth registrations have already been mentioned on this thread more than once
(e.g. Reply #36 Neil Todd)
although it is very long and complex, I think it will be worthwhile if you read the entire thread to date
in order to see where we all are ;D
Sue
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Well if nothing else, below shows that at least one fellow going by the Surname of FIRTH was in and around the Mudgee, Gulgong area about the right time.
EMILY E FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT RAYMOND TERRACE 12946/1863
CHARLES E FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT NEWCASTLE 12443/1865
SQUIRE EDGAR FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT GULGONG 15650/1876
ELIZA M A FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT MUSWELLBROOK 13004/1868
FREDERICK E FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT NEWCASTLE 14003/1871
MAUD ELLEN FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT GULGONG 14490/1873
EDWARD AUGUSTUS FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT HARTLEY 15060/1879
WILLIAM E FIRTH FATHER SQUIRE MOTHER EMILY AT NEWCASTLE 10647/1861
This family of FIRTH may be worth contacting as an established family tree exists. I would find it extraordinary if there were no connection!!
http://www.geni.com/people/Squire-Firth/6000000003214919304
http://www.geni.com/people/Emily-Edgar/6000000003214919314
Cheers
Neil
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Yes, a good read back of this thread will likely show up several pieces of duplicated info, some of which is very likely to be factoidal, rather than actual validated fact.
At the familysearch.org website there's quite a few transcriptions in their Historical Records section that may be relevant. These are for the Roman Catholic baptisms of children of Patrick and Catherine FIRTH. These children were baptised at St Francis Xavier, Narrabri or at St Joseph, Gunnedah, depending on the respective child. They match up quite well with the civil registrations on the NSW BDM online index.
I continue to wonder about that earlier remark about 'animal names' and perhaps there is an explanation. You see, as I understand it, quite often back in the 19th Century the Roman Catholic records for baptisms (and for burials and for marriages) were recorded in their registers in the Latin language. And, I am quite sure that very few people living in NSW in the 19th Century were educated sufficiently to be considered excellent Latin speakers and readers. Of course, many people in the middle of the 20th Century used a 'fun' way of speaking and called it 'pig latin'. ...... The Pig being of course an animal. So, I can see that the FIRTH children's baptisms at the familysearch.org website are sometimes transcribed with their latinised names rather than with the English spelling of their given (Christian) names.
Here's the link to the website I am referring to : https://familysearch.org/search
Here's an example of a transcription on that website for one of Patrick and Catherine's children
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTC5-ZXJ
Ernest Gulielimus Jacobus FIRTH, son of Patricius FIRTH and Catherina Winfred McCARNEY
born 06 Oct 1886, baptised 30 October 1886, at St Joseph, at Gunnedah, NSW Australia.
And the civil registration for that birth is indexed as
28836/1886
family surname FIRTH
Child's given name/s ERNEST W J (Gulielimus is likely Latin for William, and Jacobus is likely Latin for Jacob or James)
Father's given name PATRICK
Mother's given name CATHERINE W
registered in the NARRABRI district
Fingers crossed I am not side tracking you too much.
Cheers, JM
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"......Mudgee museum told mum today Frances married twice before Agnes was born......"
WERTPERTY
I would have to be very cautious about this statement. ::)
No-one to date has any document at all to support this.
Perhaps the staff-member at the Museum was assuming a marriage based on some names on an index.
If they are unable to back the statement with evidence, then you should not accept it as true.
Sue
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Exactly so Sue, exactly so.
Sometimes the words 'married woman' was used in the 1850s-1870s to simply indicate that a woman who had a child with her was a) the child's mum and b) a lawfully married woman (perhaps a widow). Even the word "widow" in NSW up until around 1870s does NOT always mean that the woman's husband had died. There's much evidence to suggest that it was not until the mid 1860s that the meaning behind the word 'widow' contracted to mean that the woman had been lawfully married, and that her husband had died. Until the commencement of NSW Divorce laws (1873), many people used the word 'widow' to indicate the woman and the child/children with her were NOT being financially supported by a man cohabitating with the woman. Sometimes the woman would wear a ring to suggest she was a married woman.
While we are mentioning the Mudgee Museum, has Werty's contact there actually been down to St John's Church of England and asked about Agnes' marriage or about Frances' funeral .... both these should be recorded in the parish register, and perhaps there's some margin remarks, or perhaps even a typical C of E Family Sheet with info about Agnes, her sister Mary, or Frances .... or the SHERRY family. This would be where I intended to start my offer of help, by simply asking one of my rellies to ask, but they are away on holidays at the mo. Agnes marriage info should give up details that are 'blanks' on that NSW BDM civil registration.
Cheers, JM
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A James and Frances McGovern had a number of children in the Goulburn area from 1853 to 1861.
This Frances died on 21st October 1861 and it looks possible that James re-married in Goulburn soon after.
Reg 3009 yr 1861 MACGOVERN Frances
Father William
Died at Goulburn
Goulburn
Death Notice-
Goulburn Herald Wednesday 23 October 1861
... Died at her residence, Verner-street, Goulburn, on the 21st instant, FRANCES, wife of Mr. JAMES McGOVERN .......
Agnes MACGOVERN you have located was registered in the last 2 weeks of August 1861
Agnes MCGOVERN,
Mother Frances
Father -
AT Wellington
# 13967 Yr 1861
Sue
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http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/collection-search
From my armchair, ‘quick looking’ across some of the NSW SRO online indexes, which of course point to actual records available at NSW State Records :
Squire FIRTH is mentioned several times in the index of the Register of auriferous Leases at NSW SRO. This is on the Gulgong goldfields, November 1874 and April 1875.
There’s also a firm PERRAM & FIRTH, Coach Builders and Saddlers at Coonamble in July 1903, this is Edwin PERRAM and Henry Clarkson FIRTH.
Deceased Estate file for Patrick FIRTH of Pilliga, gives date of death 29 April, 1932. In the remarks column it reads “or FRITH, Occupation : Labourer” …. So need to remember FIRTH or FRITH when searching online.
Walter SHEERY deceased estate file may have mention of the girls or Frances. Also, a George J SHERRY at Coonamble died 21 March 1888, as per that same Deceased estates index… Is he Walter’s brother, and was he helping raise the girls? Perhaps that file has some answers.
Perhaps Werty should be considering a visit to Kingswood and the State Archives there….
Cheers, JM
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Hello everyone, i am almost done my write up of my knowledge today and although some of this stuff has been mentioned before everything will be in the one thread and I think is vital to understand what I have discovered in my research. I'll elaborate on last nights response to mudgee museums recent information and the exact wording they used so I don't create any technicality problems, you'll have to excuse me I'm new to this and realise how exact in my comments I need to be, I rang mum back and found out exactly what they told her and I've asked for her to ring them and provide us with where they got the info from. They said they are aware of 3 partners that Frances had prior to Agnes's firth's birth and we need to check the diasis because they believe that is where we will find her birth records. That would be better done after we have a better transcription of Frances death cert and hopefully have any other last names she may have obtained. Like I've explained to my family, we only have firth identified as their last name in 1864 when Frances died so if the girls and Frances obtained the name firth after Agnes was born then Their last name when Agnes was born could have possibly been any of Frances's other possible last names. They also told us that the witnesses on Frances's death certificate resided in cassilis, I looked up one of their marriage Certs, William Caplin and found he was married in gulgong/mudgee has church code NJ. So only a suspicion but I wonder if they looked after Mary Ann or both the girls after France's death, gulgong is where Mary Ann is listed for marriage. This couple appears to have resided in both areas. I'm thinking I should be finished my other stuff later tonight, thankyou everyone and I hope this helps.
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We've got Walters sherry's death cert, it is a copy of the original too. I can't understand some of the writing
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On that birth for McGovern and packer as last names. I done a variation of the name search and came up with this. It says groom Hugh McGovern and Bride Frances Parker, all I did was just change packer to Parker, married 1840, church LD 2 different registration numbers. Frances going off death cert would have been born 1829-30 depending on if Birthday was before or after her death and legal age for girls for marriage was 12 so it's possible of her to have not long turned 12 if married late 1840 and birthday was between death date and marriage date. Long shot but if related to the birth cert then this couple merged from Sydney to these areas.
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Perhaps the following is a sidetrack. perhaps not... but I will post it on the off-chance
Hi there,
There’s a photo apparently of Ernest FIRTH, son of Patrick and Catherine FIRTH that has been uploaded to a public tree at Ancestry. He is in his WWI uniform. I am confident that the person in that photo is of Aboriginal descent however the family tree owner for Ernest does NOT show where the photo comes from, or how they can prove it is a photo of Pte Ernest James FIRTH, No 1696, 1st light horse regiment. This could be important, because they show Ernest’s father’s father as born in Ireland.
From the National Archives of Australia I can see the digitised service records for Pte Ernest FIRTH. He is among the many Australians who fell in action. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission website has details also.
National Archives of Australia …. Search as a guest using the “RecordSearch” option. There’s 48 pages. Complexion : Dark; Eyes : Dark; Hair: Dark; http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx One of his other brothers was in the New Zealand Expeditionary Forces.
Commonwealth Ware Graves website
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/644545/FIRTH,%20ERNEST%20JAMES
Australian War Memorial Website http://www.awm.gov.au/
Mapping our Anzacs http://mappingouranzacs.naa.gov.au/
Ancestry’s submitted tree has Patrick James FIRTH as born 1842 at Molong NSW, son of James Patrick FIRTH born 1808 and Catherine BLACK (no further details for her). James Patrick, apparently born County Ireland convicted Tipperary 16 March 1832, Arriving Sydney 1832. So I can confirm that NSWSRO has a James FIRTH arriving on the Eliza in 1832, and his Tick of Leave in 1837 was for the Bathurst District of NSW. BUT as to how to connect this chap to Patrick James FIRTH, born at Molong in 1842 … well I am still pondering on that, and how to join up any of these dots…… I am particularly concerned as to how to confirm that that photo on Ancestry is actually of Ernest, the son of Patrick and Catherine FIRTH mentioned in earlier posts. And then to try to find the family connection to Agnes or to Mary FIRTH.
ADD This Ancestry tree does have that Ernest as one of the many children of Patrick and Catherine FIRTH :) it is just that they have not uploaded supporting documents (and I well understand why they don't do that, afterall, so many people will copy their documents and try to use them for their own family trees without doing the basic research for themselves).
Cheers, JM ….
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Werty,
I am guessing you are currently relying on index entries based on NSW BDM. I am guessing you realise that many of the records of baptisms, marriages and of burials before civil registration commences in 1856 for NSW, are simply not part of the NSW BDM holdings.
Cheers, JM
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For Ernest firth I retrieved his photo as well, I followed links in and around his records on the Anzacs page and found the photo in a studies on aboriginals Anzacs published book. I only coppied the picture but remember them saying the photo was released to them to help with these studies. If this helps and you find it you may be able to confirm this is him.
Majm, yes I am aware thanks 😊 I'm using a method of chasing people associated directly and coincidences as I know I most likely won't find anything else on our direct family on the web. Guess I'm hoping I can stumble on someone else's info or letters that connect a few more dots or even fill a gap. Will help with searching further for them if so. I'm hoping Frances's death transcription has more info as I think this may hold the most valuable information.
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It was an aboriginal light horsemans study.
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It was an aboriginal light horsemans study.
Well, err, may I just mention the following :) re the James FIRTH on that Ancestry tree :)
1837 Muster as per BDA I read:
December 1837
James FIRTH, age 26, convicted Tipperary, arrived per Eliza in 1832, Ticket of Leave in Bathurst, and he was assigned to Robert SMITH.
From the Convict Indents I read (others may read differently, this is just my transcription)
James FIRTH, aged 22, Read and Write, Protestant, Singles, from Co Antrim, a Tailor (5 yrs) Soldier , Steal Cloak, Tried Tipperary, 16 March 1832, 7 years, no previous convictions, 5 ft 7, Ruddy and freckled complexion, Brown hair , Chesnut eyes, no particular marks or scars… So I wonder about this chap, a soldier and a tailor … Walter Sherry was a tailor in Mudgee when Agnes and Mary were there as girls….
So far, I am becoming doubtful as to how that photo could be one of a grandson of this particular James FIRTH.
Cheers, JM
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There were a lot of Irish Firth's along that transport road and heavy train Haulage line from mudgee to gulgong. I'm forming the impression that this family had a big part to do with development or businesses that used these transports. The museum also told us that a lot of aboriginals that didn't have a Christian last name were often given the last name of the person they worked for or married etc. there definately appears to be a relationship between aboriginals and Irish firths around these areas but what relationship I'm still unsure.
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I'm hoping Frances's death transcription has more info as I think this may hold the most valuable information.
Have you contacted St Johns church of England in Mudgee .... I can assure you that while they may need time to find a volunteer to chase up where their completed parish registers are currently located, that those registers usually have far more info that the NSW BDM certs. Particularly for marriages and I am thinking of Anges marriage here. I find info on marriage certs is often far more reliable than info on death certs. Far far more reliable. Firstly it is first hand info from Agnes. Yes, she would be relying on info handed down to her, afterall her mum died with Agnes was only a 3 year old lass. But she would have been asked to provide info about her parentage. The clergyman would have recorded it on his original registers. If she was a regular at that church, they it is likely her details will also be noted on the reverend's 'family sheets', so these can also be a valuable source of info.
Re the chaps on Frances' dc as witnesses.... I would expect that would be the Church Sexton, often the second name on the document. So I will chase that up for you now, back shortly, I will edit this with the info I find on him :)
EDIT, From Grevilles 1875 Directory, William CAPLIN of Church St Mudgee was a sexton. More info later in this thread. :)
Cheers, JM
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The museum also told us that a lot of aboriginals that didn't have a Christian last name were often given the last name of the person they worked for or married etc.
That is often cited, but rarely supported by documentation, and perhaps can be thought of as an urban myth. I share another urban myth.... A lass I know through family history connections has among her family surnames, the following BLACKALL. Someone in the 1990s was entering data into an excel spreadsheet, and entered that surname. Along came someone else and copied it into their own, and during that exercise, excel "fell over". Eventually someone else got hold of that spreadsheet, and mis-read BLACKALL as BLACK-ALL and then decided that meant the person was an Aboriginal, with both parents being Aboriginal and no 'foreigner' in the family forebears at all. I remembered that particular example as soon as I saw this FIRTH tree on ancestry today, as I read Catherine BLACK
Perhaps the following is a sidetrack. perhaps not... but I will post it on the off-chance
Hi there,
There’s a photo apparently of Ernest FIRTH, son of Patrick and Catherine FIRTH that has been uploaded to a public tree at Ancestry. He is in his WWI uniform. I am confident that the person in that photo is of Aboriginal descent however the family tree owner for Ernest does NOT show where the photo comes from, or how they can prove it is a photo of Pte Ernest James FIRTH, No 1696, 1st light horse regiment. This could be important, because they show Ernest’s father’s father as born in Ireland. .............
Ancestry’s submitted tree has Patrick James FIRTH as born 1842 at Molong NSW, son of James Patrick FIRTH born 1808 and Catherine BLACK (no further details for her). .......
Cheers, JM
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I'll be back on later tonight. I've just picked up my children and will need to attend to them for a few hours. I did find another firth family with all the same names as Ernest firth family. Only main differance was mother was Catherine Winifred not Kate Winifred Patrick Firth was right and marriage and kids dates were all different. No aboriginal referances only Irish and British. I wonder if that is where this other family tree could be wrong.
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There were a lot of Irish Firth's along that transport road and heavy train Haulage line from mudgee to gulgong. I'm forming the impression that this family had a big part to do with development or businesses that used these transports.
Somewheres I have info as to when that line was built. But I think it would be 1870s or later. It is not a long distance between Mudgee and Gulgong today, and likely it was less than a day's ride on horseback in the 1860s. The goldfields at Gulgong were 1870s, so not much of a reason before then for heavy equipment to be hauled up to Gulgong.
Back to look for the Sexton :)
Kate Winifred and Catherine Winifred are of course ONE and the same person. Kate is still a nickname for Catherine. (Kate Middleton, Duchess of Cambridge !)
Cheers, JM
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We've come across a similar problem, mum wrote to my heritage for help and the person there had hands on modifying their information, cut a long story short he mixed the little info we had on Mary Ann with a lady from the USA. I researched the history attached to the other lady and proved this other lady was born 1838 and lived her full life in America. I will be back later, talk then.
By for now
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwabegar_railway_line
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Not that wiki is reliable but has general info to go off.
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If you look on the official document for Ernrst's registration to the army it says mother Patrick with a line through it and a correction above saying Kate. The naa records and Anzac archive details say mother Patrick. It was only then I was able to link Ernest, Francis and his parents together, that's what led me to the study on light horseman and other studies done on this family.
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Go's to show reading the original documents can be valuable for your research :)
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Please do consider contacting St Johns C of E re their parish register for Agnes marriage :) it will at least give you the info that NSW BDM did not receive from Rev Gunther at the time he sent through his summary info.
Re Frances FIRTH’s dc transcription:
Witnesses : Thomas Wesley, William Caplin
Undertaker S Moore
Rev James Gunther, C of E
Medical Attendant W King
NSW ER 1870 MUDGEE
Thomas WESTLEY, of Mudgee household, Perry St,
John WESTLEY, of Talbragar, freehold, Perry St
William KING, of Mudgee, household, Church St
Samuel MOORE, of Mudgee, freehold of Church St
May I mention a co—incidence the medical attendant “W King” and the middle name for Walter SHERRY’s wife … Amy King, as per the headstone and the cutting from the newspapers, as per Trove (I leave it to you to follow through, Walter Sherry then re-married).
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=8647376
From a Directory for 1867
W SHERRY, tailor, Mudgee
From Grevilles 1875 directory MUDGEE
William CAPLIN, sexton, Church Street
Cheers, JM
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Go's to show reading the original documents can be valuable for your research :)
Exactly so.... nothing better than getting to "hear" the voice of the person you are researching "in their own words" .... which is why I am suggesting you get to the parish register holding Agnes marriage... :D
Cheers, JM
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Re that heavy haulage railway line .... it may well be even more recent than either of us thought...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hollow_%E2%80%93_Gulgong_railway_line
Cheers, JM
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I thought I may have read somewhere too that Amy king was a midwife, I havnt found a great deal on her though. Mum told me that mudgee says Frances had other partners is only down as notes by the church so we need to contact the church to find out if that information is on her Death certificate or not.
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Re Ernest FIRTH's brother Charles, the one mentioned on Ernest's AIF files as being in the NZEF
Here's some info
Charles Allen FIRTH, born Australia, a Shearer, n o k, Mrs Maggie Firth (mother), Pilliga, NSW, was a Private in the NZ Expeditionary Forces, as per Auckland Cenotaph Datebase
http://muse.aucklandmuseum.com/databases/Cenotaph/locations.aspx?#
21 pages of service records for Charles are available, digitised by NZ Archives Image 17 has a description …. Sallow complexion, Brown Eyes, Black Hair, 31 years 5 months, 5 ft 8 ¾ inches, and a shearer. This is on his Cert of Discharge in NZ in April 1919. (NZEF # 11263 –Army)
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
Cheers JM
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Just a little more into this giant mixing bowl ::) A Frances BURROWS baptism was registered in 1841 to a Nathan BURROWS and "A NATIVE WOMAN" Nathan Burrows seems to have died at Parramatta aged 78 years in 1881. No further issue.
Unfortunately there are also two more Frances's baptism's registered with no surname in the relevant time period. ???
Would the relevant reference numbers get us any further JM
Neil
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For your interest
Walter it appears was an assisted Immigrant to NSW
SHERRY Walter Aged 26. Per "March. of Londonderry" Year 1854 to Sydney and/or Newcastle and wife. Fiche 839
SHERRY Mary Aged 33 "March. of Londonderry" Year 1854 to Sydney and/or Newcastle and husband Fiche 839
It is possible MARY could be a mis-transcription of AMY. Could be similar in poorly executed old script.
Sue
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Hi all
Boy this is getting more indepth, When we receive an email from mudgee with the phone numbers for the church we are going to call them asap. But till then we need to wait.
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Hi all
Boy this is getting more indepth, When we receive an email from mudgee with the phone numbers for the church we are going to call them asap. But till then we need to wait.
May I please suggest you write them a snail mail letter, enclosing a copy of the transcription you have offered here for both Frances death cert and for Agnes birth cert.
I gave a link to the Church website earlier.
http://www.mudgeehistory.com.au/churches/churches1.html
Cheers, JM
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More info about railway mentioning firth. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=lzw1AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA12-PA30&lpg=RA12-PA30&dq=firth+gulgong&source=bl&ots=s7DJT5KlOL&sig=Z9n3tM8xvEOSOK1I9GqLApo0r2Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jcMCVJPIL9SIuATA74CADg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ
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More info about railway mentioning firth.
from a NSW Parliamentary enquiry in 1890 ;D
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Thank you majm I will do that. Would I just put that I am after the missing pieces of information?
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Majm , I clicked on the link you put up for the church and it keeps putting up this page cannot be displayed?
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http://mudgeeanglican.org.au/
Neil
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The site finally came up.I don't have agnes birth cert , ive got frances death , agnes marriage and death,
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Suggestion
St John’s Anglican Church
Church St
MUDGEE 2850
For the kind attention of the Reverend, or one of the volunteer helpers.
Dear Reverend,
I am enclosing two transcriptions of records held by the NSW Births, Deaths and Marriages. They refer to a funeral and also a marriage conducted at St Johns in the 1800s. I do not live in the district, but may I please ask you to advise me as to where I can view the parish registers that would hold the details of those two services, or for the parish records for the family. I understand that Walter SHERRY and his wife were involved in raising Agnes (and also her younger sister Mary) after Frances death.
As you can see from the NSW BDM records, there’s quite a number of blanks in their summary holdings. I am led to believe that the original parish registers will have greater depth of details than the civil registrations from that time.
Many thanks for your time .
I am enclosing a stamped addressed envelope for your kind reply.
Yours sincerely,
(Bron63)
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These are the places here that mum was told to contact by mudgee museum. St Johns Archives. (02) 63721126. Mainland Diasis of the Church of England🎁 Catholic Church Mudgee .
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The site finally came up.I don't have agnes birth cert , ive got frances death , agnes marriage and death,
You have Agnes death cert ..... what does it say about her father on that document please
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These are the places here that mum was told to contact by mudgee museum. St Johns Archives. (02) 63721126. Mainland Diasis of the Church of England🎁 Catholic Church Mudgee .
That's the Rev'ds phone number at St Johns C of E, Mudgee.
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Death cert for Agnes details
Registration No: 12948/1927
Date of Death: 30 June 1927
Place of Death: Duntroon Hospital, Johnston st Annandale NSW
Name: Agnes Baker
Sex: Female
Age: 65
Cause of Death: Failure of the hearts action whilst under an anaesthetic
for sergical operartion for multiple abscesses of the lung.
Duration: Inqueast Sydney 11 Jul 1927
Medical Attendent: F.W.Fletcher, City Coroner
Father: -Firth ?
Fathers Occupation: Boundary rider
Informant; A.E.Baker, son, Hammond Ave, Ashfield; Registered 1 Jul 1927
Buried: 2 Jul 1927
Where: Church of England Cemetary Rookwood
Undertaker: Ernest Andrews
Minister: P Bazeley
Religion: Church of England
Witnesses: A.E.Baker, Arthur H, Shying
Where Born: Mudgee NSW
Place Married: Mudgee NSW
Age of Marriage: 19
Spouse: William James Baker
Children of Marriage: Living. Agnes E 45, Albert E 41, William G 39, Sydney J 36, Lillian M 34, Oliver J 36.
Deceased. 2 males, 3 females.
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Under mother it says not listed.
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Death cert for Agnes details
Father: -Firth ?
and Under mother it says not listed.
So in fact the basis for FIRTH is probably because that was the surname Agnes used when she married in Mudgee in 1882.
Going round in circles yet ?
Cheers, JM
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The Origen of Firth is a mystery as such. We know it fits there somewhere, was it father?, was it obtained after Agnes birth? Was it Frances's last name? Name carried from previous relationship of Frances?
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This is the second time the script of the D. Certificate has been posted
Reply#36 ::)
Sue
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Werty,
Could you perhaps provide some details please about Mary Ann FIRTH and her marriage and children.
Her certificates will need to be got I think if you do not already have them.
Sue
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Another candidate for Agnes and Mary's mum (assuming she was not formally married to any of her husbands... )
Francis Matilda FIRTH, born 19 September 1832 *** and baptism in Hobart, VDL, 6 June 1841. Her parents recorded as Joseph Crossley FIRTH and Tabitha FIRTH
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT8C-MR8
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTXX-4D6
Joseph Crossley FIRTH died 24 Nov 1865, aged 75 years, spouse named Tabitha, HOBART, Kingston Congregational KB06/00012 Tas death certs usually have very little family history info on them, but the ref no. is 5972. He had been tried for High Treason in Yorkshire, England. His wife was likely a Tabitha TAYLOR.
*** The online index simply does not say where this baby girl was born, and so she may well have been born 'overseas' ie Ireland.
Cheers, JM
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werty your surpose to put exactly what is on death cert where it says where born it doesn't have what you put it only has mudgee nsw
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bron,
Did you know you can speak "privately" to werty using the Private Message system of Rootschat?
Sue
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ty majm for the way to put the letter
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But on frances death cert it has her last name firth
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But on frances death cert it has her last name firth
Yes, that's because that is the information given to the funeral director who in turn registered the death and burial. NSW BDM has never had the funds to employ anyone to actually check that the information given to them is actually correct information.
Cheers, JM
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The museum also told us that a lot of aboriginals that didn't have a Christian last name were often given the last name of the person they worked for or married etc.
I was told this same information by an aboriginal person at family history seminar. Aboriginals traditionally don't have surnames and one was needed for the British system. This is true in the area where I reside as the properties are still in existence with the same names that are very common in the Aboriginal community. So I think this is fact rather than urban myth - certainly in the rural area where I reside.
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Back in the 1860s, it was the responsibility of the householder to report deaths to the police and for the police to determine if it was a sudden death and/or a suspicious death in need of investigation. So whoever was the head of the household where Frances was at the time of her death would have contacted the local police, who in turn would have contacted the local Police Magistrate who would have needed to determine if the local medico had been treating the patient, and if that medico was prepared to certify a cause of death. Then the Police Magistrate likely would issue a burial order to the local funeral directors and a funeral would be carried out. Then the funeral director would follow up and get all the details he could regarding the info he needed to help complete the registration process.
So, it seems that Frances was in Mudgee with two little girls, and that she was known there as Frances FIRTH, and that the locals believed Frances was their mum. The locals did not know the name of Frances husband, nor when or where she had married, so it is fair to assume he was not around at the time. But someone has given that she was from Ireland, so we need to assume they heard her accent in her spoken words.
This is not an unusual story for the era. the 1860s saw far more people arrive at the various seaports along the coast than for all the years of the convict era (1788-1840 for NSW, and 1788-1853 for Tasmania). It was the gold fever that attracted so many to our shores in the 1850s and 1860s.
Perhaps I should suggest you have a read of the following papers prepared some years ago now, but still a valid reference source. It shows some of the issues facing females who were without their husbands. Divorce did not come to NSW until 1873.
http://www.aifs.org.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html
Cheers, JM
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The museum also told us that a lot of aboriginals that didn't have a Christian last name were often given the last name of the person they worked for or married etc.
I was told this same information by an aboriginal person at family history seminar. Aboriginals traditionally don't have surnames and one was needed for the British system. This is true in the area where I reside as the properties are still in existence with the same names that are very common in the Aboriginal community. So I think this is fact rather than urban myth - certainly in the rural area where I reside.
May I cheerfully note that it was not until sometime in the 1960s or later that the NSW BDM civil registration for births actually provides for ANY PERSON born in NSW to have a surname. My own birth registration does not give me a surname, (nor my siblings a surname,) although my birth was registered in the years after WWII had concluded.
Cheers, JM
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I do have to apologise for cassilis being listed under location of birth, I copied the information from my search list and forgot to remove cassilis before adding. My apologies.
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Surnames on birth certificates in NSW apparently commences from 1969. (Thanks to a person following this thread making contact with me.... however I have not yet confirmed that year :) )
ADD, the index gives the SURNAME/s that the mother was known by at the time of registration. So multiple entries shows that the compiler of the index was unsure of the surname that the baby was likely to become known by.
Cheers, JM
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The museum also told us that a lot of aboriginals that didn't have a Christian last name were often given the last name of the person they worked for or married etc.
I was told this same information by an aboriginal person at family history seminar. Aboriginals traditionally don't have surnames and one was needed for the British system. This is true in the area where I reside as the properties are still in existence with the same names that are very common in the Aboriginal community. So I think this is fact rather than urban myth - certainly in the rural area where I reside.
May I cheerfully note that it was not until sometime in the 1960s or later that the NSW BDM civil registration for births actually provides for ANY PERSON born in NSW to have a surname. My own birth registration does not give me a surname, (nor my siblings a surname,) although my birth was registered in the years after WWII had concluded.
Cheers, JM
True, but with all due respect, I think that Aboriginal people actually know their own history. Surnames may not have been need on birth certificates, but they may have been needed for other less formal records.
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A link to a photo of Ernest James Firth
http://www.historycouncilnsw.org.au/whats-on/post/for-king-and-country-aboriginal-torres-strait-islander-experiences-in-war/
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May I cheerfully note that it was not until sometime in the 1960s or later that the NSW BDM civil registration for births actually provides for ANY PERSON born in NSW to have a surname. My own birth registration does not give me a surname, (nor my siblings a surname,) although my birth was registered in the years after WWII had concluded.
Victorian births were the same - My BC does not give me a surname.
Also my OH & two of my children who were born in NSW do not have their surnames on their BC's.
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True, but with all due respect, I think that Aboriginal people actually know their own history. Surnames may not have been need on birth certificates, but they may have been needed for other less formal records.
I am quite sure that the use of Aboriginal names for localities, districts and regional geographical features was supported by the various penal governors and their Surveyor Generals, in particular I am sure that Sir Thomas Mitchell actively encouraged this, throughout the then territory of colonial New South Wales.
Here's one example of where Birth certificates were simply not needed
When a child commenced their schooling . A surname was simply their mother's last name. If mother changed her partner, then the surname of the children at school often changed to reflect that. I come from a long line of NSW Civil servants, dating back to Sir Francis Forbes era, generation after generation after generation. There's a great deal of private family papers that have been used as research papers by many respected NSW history students, formally and informally.
There's quite a number of index entries at the NSW BDM online index where the word entered by the compiler is the word ABORIGINAL .
Cheers, JM
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A link to a photo of Ernest James Firth
http://www.historycouncilnsw.org.au/whats-on/post/for-king-and-country-aboriginal-torres-strait-islander-experiences-in-war/
Jennaya, please read back through this thread, particularly to my comments re IF this photo has been confirmed and validated to be of that particular soldier.
I am sure you will see that I confirmed this to be of an Aboriginal soldier. I am only questioning if it has been confirmed by independent sources to be a photo of that AIF chap.
Cheers, JM
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I do have to apologise for cassilis being listed under location of birth, I copied the information from my search list and forgot to remove cassilis before adding. My apologies.
Cassillis has been removed from Agnes death cert info. Thankyou.
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May I please duplicate my post, hopefully to assist this now very long thread. I will make some highlights this time around. (the photo on Ancestry is same as the one Jennaya has linked in her post to the NSW State Library)
Cheers, JM
Perhaps the following is a sidetrack. perhaps not... but I will post it on the off-chance
Hi there,
There’s a photo apparently of Ernest FIRTH, son of Patrick and Catherine FIRTH that has been uploaded to a public tree at Ancestry. He is in his WWI uniform. I am confident that the person in that photo is of Aboriginal descent however the family tree owner for Ernest does NOT show where the photo comes from, or how they can prove it is a photo of Pte Ernest James FIRTH, No 1696, 1st light horse regiment. This could be important, because they show Ernest’s father’s father as born in Ireland.
From the National Archives of Australia I can see the digitised service records for Pte Ernest FIRTH. He is among the many Australians who fell in action. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission website has details also.
National Archives of Australia …. Search as a guest using the “RecordSearch” option. There’s 48 pages. Complexion : Dark; Eyes : Dark; Hair: Dark; http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx One of his other brothers was in the New Zealand Expeditionary Forces.
Commonwealth Ware Graves website
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/644545/FIRTH,%20ERNEST%20JAMES
Australian War Memorial Website http://www.awm.gov.au/
Mapping our Anzacs http://mappingouranzacs.naa.gov.au/
Ancestry’s submitted tree has Patrick James FIRTH as born 1842 at Molong NSW, son of James Patrick FIRTH born 1808 and Catherine BLACK (no further details for her). James Patrick, apparently born County Ireland convicted Tipperary 16 March 1832, Arriving Sydney 1832. So I can confirm that NSWSRO has a James FIRTH arriving on the Eliza in 1832, and his Tick of Leave in 1837 was for the Bathurst District of NSW. BUT as to how to connect this chap to Patrick James FIRTH, born at Molong in 1842 … well I am still pondering on that, and how to join up any of these dots…… I am particularly concerned as to how to confirm that that photo on Ancestry is actually of Ernest, the son of Patrick and Catherine FIRTH mentioned in earlier posts. And then to try to find the family connection to Agnes or to Mary FIRTH.
ADD This Ancestry tree does have that Ernest as one of the many children of Patrick and Catherine FIRTH :) it is just that they have not uploaded supporting documents (and I well understand why they don't do that, afterall, so many people will copy their documents and try to use them for their own family trees without doing the basic research for themselves).
Cheers, JM ….
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A link to a photo of Ernest James Firth
http://www.historycouncilnsw.org.au/whats-on/post/for-king-and-country-aboriginal-torres-strait-islander-experiences-in-war/
Jennaya, please read back through this thread, particularly to my comments re IF this photo has been confirmed and validated to be of that particular soldier.
I am sure you will see that I confirmed this to be of an Aboriginal soldier. I am only questioning if it has been confirmed by independent sources to be a photo of that AIF chap.
Cheers, JM
Perhaps it would be worth contacting State Library as the image is credited to them.
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Just I note to those searching Ernest Firth. In his brother Francis Walter Bertie Firths war registration it lists the Father as Patrick Firth, he was 27 in 1915 so birth around 1888 http://mappingouranzacs.naa.gov.au/list-kin.aspx?nok=Firth,%20Patrick%20(father) , In the register search for Ernest it says mother Patrick but if you view the original document you can see Patrick has been crossed out as mother and corrected with Kate, his age was 28 in 1915 so born around 1887 http://mappingouranzacs.naa.gov.au/Details.aspx?barcode_no=3901810&TB_iframe=true&height=500&width=600. In bdm there is a marriage register to groom: Patrick Firth, Wife: Kate Winifred mccarney or maccarney. Reg 3062/1880, coonamble. There is another couple around the same region with similar and identical names of this family but birth dates and marriage does not match up for children or them, I think their marriage was 1910 from memory and names groom: Patrick Firth, bride: Catherine Winifred mccarney. I only saved what I thought was relative to Ernest and Francis. I also found this but I can't find out any more on this Firth. http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/scripts/Imagine.asp?B=3900552 another army man.
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Werty,
I hope you don't mind me being quite direct at this point in this now very long thread.
I think you are side-tracking yourself here with all this searching in early 20th century records for FIRTH. Perhaps I have mis-understood, but I am sure that Bron63 is trying to find the father of Agnes and Mary Ann FIRTH, the two daughters of Frances FIRTH who died in 1864, and who was born about 34 years earlier. And further that Bron63 understands that it is the father of these two girls who was a ‘full blood’ Aboriginal man. So, I am at a loss to know why you are trying to find the Aboriginal connection in the generation of those who enlisted for World War I with the surname FIRTH. Surely, as the girls were born in the early 1860s, then the soldiers in the AIF are at least one generation after the girls and with even less Aboriginal heritage to take into account?
Frances dc has her as Irish born, so the girls have half their heritage as “overseas” already. …. And thus this leaves only their Dad that may be of Aboriginal ethnicity for the other ‘half’. So their possible first cousins on their Dad’s side are where you are looking, but we do not yet know Dad’s details. We suspect (from Agnes dc) he was a boundary rider and that his surname was FIRTH.
Agnes and Mary Ann may well have first cousins on their Mum’s side who are fully British stock and they may well have first cousins on their Dad’s side who are fully Aboriginal stock.
What I do find a tad odd, is that it is the DAD, who is believed to be Aboriginal, fathered both the girls. This is not a usual situation. Usually you will find in a “mixed’ marriage in NSW in those times, that the MUM is Aboriginal, and that the DAD is British. Also, these relationships tend to be short term, and so it is not usual to find TWO children who are ‘full’ siblings, and that both are fathered by an Aboriginal.
I do not think there’s two separate families of FIRTH with Patrick and Kate as the parents and then with Patrick and Catherine as another separate family.
Just some thoughts for you to mull over, afterall I have now looked at the NAA file for Leslie Robert FIRTH, and he was a Dental Surgeon before he enlisted on 6 Nov 1918, and his date of birth is given by him on his enlistment papers as 14 July 1894. He had blue eyes, brown hair and a medium complexion, and he lived with him Mother at 11 Shadforth Street, Mosman. Yes, his place of birth is shown on those papers as “Casilis”. Likely his birth cert would be #10106/1894 (Leslie R FIRTH parents as Robert A and Edith J, registered Cassilis)
The online index as Patrick FIRTH marrying Kate Winifred MACARNEY or MCCARNEY in 1880 at Coonamble (#3062) The familysearch.org has baptisms for this couple to match up to many of the civil birth registrations for them. So may I suggest that Joseph, civil rego #23638/1882 with parents as Patrick and Catherine Winifred FIRTH, registering his birth at Narrabri is also the same couple who son Joseph was baptised at St Francis Xavier, Narrabi. Joseph Bernard FIRTH born 4 May 1882, baptised 7 Feburary 1883.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCQ-MTL
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT69-VL4
I believe that Charles Allen FIRTH (brother of Ernest and Francis as per the AIF files for Ernest, with correspondence from their Mum re her sons) was baptised as Carolus Alfredus FIRTH. Born 23 August 1883, baptised at St Joseph at Gunnedah 30 December 1883, with Parents recorded as Patritius FIRTH and Catharine Winefrida Mccarney.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCQ-L4N
I believe his birth was registered at Narrabri, Charles A, with parents as Patrick and Catherine W FIRTH (#259311883). I checked his NZEF digitised file, I typed up and posted on this thread that info including his physical description. His complexion was noted as Sallow.
Re Ernest FIRTH's brother Charles, the one mentioned on Ernest's AIF files as being in the NZEF
Here's some info
Charles Allen FIRTH, born Australia, a Shearer, n o k, Mrs Maggie Firth (mother), Pilliga, NSW, was a Private in the NZ Expeditionary Forces, as per Auckland Cenotaph Datebase
http://muse.aucklandmuseum.com/databases/Cenotaph/locations.aspx?#
21 pages of service records for Charles are available, digitised by NZ Archives Image 17 has a description …. Sallow complexion, Brown Eyes, Black Hair, 31 years 5 months, 5 ft 8 ¾ inches, and a shearer. This is on his Cert of Discharge in NZ in April 1919. (NZEF # 11263 –Army)
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
Cheers JM
Cheers, JM
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT69-2D4
Francis W FIRTH, parents as Patrick FIRTH and Cathrine W Mc Kearney. Born 14 December 1887, baptised 5 February 1888 at St Francis Xavier, Narrabri.
NSW BDM has Francis W B with parents as Patrick and Catherine W FIRTH, registered Narrabri. (30192/1888)
May I just note that the births of babies born in December in rural areas were often recorded at the Registrar General's Office in the next month, which was of course also the next year, thus it is very likely that the civil registration for Francis born 14 December 1887 was not recorded in the Sydney registers until 1888, thus the "1888" part of that registration.
From the NAA files
Francis Walter Bertie FIRTH enlisted 24 February 1915. His 18 page service file shows he was aged 27 years and two months, born Pilliga, had dark complexion, brown eyes, black hair and was a Roman Catholic, and his next of kin was his Dad, Patrick. May I also mention that he enlisted in Queensland, before the Gallipoli campaign had started, so long before the AIF relaxed its recruiting to permit Aboriginals to enlist.
http://guides.sl.nsw.gov.au/content.php?pid=489033&sid=4179124
Cheers, JM
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And the original post, to save scrolling back and back and back :)
Hi I'm trying to find information about my great great grandmother Agnes May firth born 1862 in Cassius came from mudgee nsw she was adopted with her sister Mary Ann after their mother past away Frances jane firth in 1864 the girls are half cast aborigines Walter sherry mayor of mudgee took care of them until this time .can anyone look up record for this event would be appreciated as need verification of them being aboriginal. Just noting that I have previously apologised for a quote I had put in here wrongly and didn't understand the correct terminology.
JM
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Perhaps it would be worth contacting State Library as the image is credited to them.
Ernest James FIRTH was Killed in Action in November 1917. http://www.awm.gov.au/people/rolls/R1731798/
The Crown Studios Collection was established in May 1918 when relatives of soldiers were asked to forward photographs for copying.
http://www.acmssearch.sl.nsw.gov.au/search/itemDetailPaged.cgi?itemID=431195
https://www.flickr.com/photos/statelibraryofnsw/sets/72157644355448247/#
“
The Trustees of the Mitchell Library undertook to collect these portraits in May 1918. Relatives of soldiers were asked to forward photographs to the Crown Studios, Sydney, for copying.
Name, date of birth, enlistment date, trade or calling, birthplace, address prior to enlistment, rank, number and distinctions, casualties, next of kin and father's name inscribed on the standard form on the back of the photograph, transcribed by a librarian or the photographic studio from information supplied on the form sent in by the donor. Problems with the handwriting on the original form have led to errors in some of the transliterations.
There are over 1600 photographs in the Crown Studios Collection.
A selection from the collection have been uploaded to Flickr Commons to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the First World War.
If you discover a family member on our New South Wales Servicemen Portraits set, please email media [at] sl.nsw.gov.au with your name, contact details and a link to the image and we will provide you with a digital file or print free of charge (limit one print per family).”
Fire at Crown Studios http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15816632 SMH 21 Dec 1918
ADD
http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/events/exhibitions/2014/crown_studios/index.html
http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2014/06/25/4033019.htm
http://www.theguardian.com/discover-culture/2014/jun/25/portraits-of-war-the-crown-studios-project (exhibition is currently still on display, Portraits of War: The Crown studios project
State Library of New South Wales, Sydney 28 June - 21 September 2014)
Cheers, JM
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Hi majm. I am yet to read over all the posts since last time I was on, I can assure that I have the same interest in mind. I am only new to family research and until I joined here I have been limited in where to conduct my searches. I was getting no further with the direct family so I have been looking through other possible relationships to see if I can find referances to the people we are looking for.
I look forward to reading the other posts tonight and I have almost finished the little write up as promised.
WertyPerty.
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May I mention another apparent anomaly between the info gleaned from the online indexes and the Ancestry trees that include Agnes and Mary FIRTH.
The NSW BDM index has a Mary Ann LONG’s death registered 1941. There’s no one else by that name on that index in that year. The index does not have the given names for her parents, and instead, the compiler has at least noted other info from her dc registration. So, we can read that Mary Ann LONG was 88 years of age, and she died in Sydney. I ‘know’ this because the Ancestry tree cites a source, and the ref no. they cite is 22108. That number is the NSW BDM reference for a death cert for Mary Ann. I presume the tree owner actually has an official transcription or a legal copy of that document.
However, the Ancestry tree has Mary Ann’s age at death as 78 years, rather than the 88 years the NSW BDM index has. To me, this could be fairly significant. It puts Mary Ann as the older of the two sisters, and I recall that it was Mary Ann who married before Agnes married. If Mary Ann was born 1863ish, then she was 16ish when she married, so she was not yet old enough to give consent to her own marriage, and she needed someone else (her guardian) to give that consent for her. If she was born 1853 ish, then she had reached her majority well and truly and could consent herself.
Mary Ann FIRTH’s marriage to John LONG is indexed at NSW BDM for 1881, and is ref no. 4905, registered district of Gulgong. The Ancestry tree has a date for that ceremony, 24 December 1881.
These NSW BDM registrations are actually available to any member of the general public to purchase. Official transcriptions of any registration you can find at the online index for NSW BDM are available for around $20 each from any of the three authorised official transcription services. You do not need identification to order these. You do not need to be a family member to buy either a copy or an official transcription of these official records.
I think that Mary Ann FIRTH’s 1881 marriage registration needs to be checked and yes, there may well be blanks on that official registration. If so, then after you have purchased the document please please hasten slowly and search out the original parish registers. Of course, this is assuming you have long known that this Mary Ann is Agnes’ sister.
But I do think it is often sensible to hasten slowly and methodically through and don't jump ahead of ourselves. There's no point in joining dots way ahead, until we join the dots immediately in front. Otherwise we can end up on a dot with no where to go. :)
Cheers, JM
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I think this may be the cutting for the Mary Ann from that 1941 index mention.
LONG. - The Relatives and Friends of the late MARY ANN LONG, of 130 Smith Street, Wentworthville, are kindly invited to attend her Funeral; to leave our Private Chapel, 240 Oxford Street, Paddington, THIS AFTERNOON, at 1.30 o'clock, for the Catholic Cemetery, Botany, (Bathurst papers, please copy.)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17767572 SMH 7 OCT 1941
I notice they ask for the Bathurst papers to please copy. Perhaps that is a clue :)
Cheers, JM
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Hi Majm, yes that info you have found for Mary Ann I also picked up on and pointed out to the recipient of that info. From memory that information was provided to that person from another search resource provider. I pointed out to them the math problem that identifies this as the wrong Mary Ann or if it is there are obvious issues.What I looked at didn't identify the other information you found though, another thing to put aside as not helpful I think. My write up later will explain to you some of the causes and problems found in this search. In these trees you'll find slight variation of info, mainly due to independent family research and not much facts to go off as well as lack of identifying the facts provided by their documents. As we know family stories can evolve through generations and facts lost or misinterpretations of the story they have been told being passed down, these searches are hard and frustrating for families. This is where roots chat is handy and from what I can tell vital to helping Aboriginal descendants recover their lost family history, there are professionals on board that are able to identify what is fact and what is not to help people get back on the right path.
Thankyou.
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Have you researched the marriage of a Josiah TROWBRIDGE and a Frances FIRTH from 1853/4 ... This predates NSW BDM civil registrations. However, it is indexed on both NSW and QLD bdms, as it seems to be a marriage in that part of THEN New South Wales that was hived off in 1859 to become Queensland. There's many families who moved freely on the stock routes throughout rural NSW and QLD in the 1860s.... Perhaps there's a connection?
Familysearch.org historical records has a Fances Maria TROWBRIDGE baptised in the Hunter region of NSW in January 1854. Her parents noted as Josiah and Frances Trowbridge.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTHV-8BV
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTDT-6R7
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTDT-TSZ
At the NSW BDM index I can see at least one civil registration for a child to Josiah and Frances. The district reads Clarence Town, so there’s possibly two children with civil registrations to that couple, and of course I can see the Early Church Records for Frances M, (2990/1852) and likely a brother, Robert (378/1851). The civil registrations that may be part of the FIRTH mystery (registered Clarence Town) are
NSW BDM #6455/1860, Charles TROWBRIDGE, index has his parents as Joseph and Frances and I am speculating that’s a mis-read of Joseph instead of Josiah …. The writing was in longhand, way before typewriters came along.
NSW BDM #5410/1858, Emily TROWBRIDGE, index has her parents as Josiah and Frances.
Perhaps searching for Josiah and Frances TROWBRIDGE or their children may be an option worth considering. Afterall, it seems Frances was nee FIRTH. The 1860 birth cert may well have details for Charles older siblings, and likely an address for his place of birth, and of course may have family members mentioned as witnesses for the birth.
Cheers, JM
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http://williamsvalleyhistory.org/clarence-town/
http://williamsvalleyhistory.org/aborigines-gringai/
Cheers, JM
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NSW BDM has the following index marriage entry from their Early Church Records
Josiah TROWBRIDGE and Frances FRITH, with reference 784/1850 and the Church code of CU.
CU is usually the code for St Johns, Brisbane. (Anglican)
So I think this is the same ECR as on the Qld BDM.
I should mention that these indexes were not put together until the 1930s, when groups of volunteers who could read the long hand writing on those well worn original sets of records went through and prepared the initial indexes.
So it does not surprise me that there's some mis-reads coming up these bdm indexes. (FRITH in this instance)
Cheers, JM
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Possible match for Frances marriage. v1850277 36b1850 ref jonathan j Jackson, Frances foster NJ mudgee/gulgong. Then this as this Frances became Jackson. 2078/1860 William Bolton maried Frances Jackson mudgee 1860.
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Possible match for Frances marriage. v1850277 36b1850 ref jonathan j Jackson, Frances foster NJ mudgee/gulgong. Then this as this Frances became Jackson. 2078/1860 William Bolton maried Frances Jackson mudgee 1860.
A daughter for that couple ?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCL-D7M
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTXH-5BB
Emily 1853
Cheers, JM
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Not yet joining any dots, but this Jonathan was aged 44 when he died, so I am not considering him a father for Emily.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTH1-6JS
Cheers, JM
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Werty,
Do you already know that Frances FOSTER is possibly Agnes mum? Or are you going through various online indexes looking for Frances (any surname) on the off chance? (Add, perhaps to try to find what Mudgee museum meant re two previous marriages for Frances FIRTH)
I am happy to use my offline resources to help, but I would actually prefer to know if I am looking up something on spec or because I am actually helping to validate an existing record (and not just an index entry).
ADD. You need to remember that Divorce does NOT exist in NSW until 1873, so it becomes important to consider that a second marriage is likely to be an informal one, co-habiting was the 1810s word used by the then Governor of NSW. Other expressions were de facto marriage, and in the 20th century 'common law marriage' became another euphemism.
Cheers, JM
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Majm, yes that's right sorry. This is based on the first name only and mudgee. I followed each name backwards from the list assuming she did marry. I put Frances under brides name and mudgee for location. For each result I got there I removed mudgee, left Frances , put The bride last name under grooms name assuming the museum was right about other partners and hit search again. I was very surprised with the result so I posted it for assistance. Thankyou. I'll try to remember to add my thoughts on what I find.
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Majm, yes that's right sorry. This is based on the first name only and mudgee. I followed each name backwards from the list assuming she did marry. I put Frances under brides name and mudgee for location. For each result I got there I removed mudgee, left Frances , put The bride last name under grooms name assuming the museum was right about other partners and hit search again. I was very surprised with the result so I posted it for assistance. Thankyou. I'll try to remember to add my thoughts on what I find.
i have drawn these referances from the old BDM search engine.
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Does anyone have a picture or any information at all about Aunt Mary Ann?
Sue
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The only creditable information I have on Aunt Mary Ann that I can think of is on her mothers death certificate. It says Mary Ann 18 months, Frances Death date 22/8/1864
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So you know nothing of her( Mary Ann) addresses, children, husband's occupation etc.??
Do you hold the marriage certificate?
If not, is it on order from a transcription agent?
I am aware these questions have been asked before, but just trying to get an understanding here ;D
Sue
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May I add to Sue's questions
Is that info re Mary Ann from an official transcription or from the actual image of the death registration from 1864?
Cheers, JM
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It is from a transcription. I know the cert info has been posted before but this might be helpful. I have coppied down all the datails from the 3 transcriptions we hold. We don't have any original ones. Apart from a photo copy of Walter Sherry's death. This will save anyone from having to go back through the threads to find these.
Agnes Marriage
Groom: William James Baker
Occupation: Bricklayer
Residence: Sydney NSW
Bride: Agnes Firth
Date: 24 May 1882
Residence: Mudgee
Church: St Johns Church Mudgee NSW
Religion: Church of England
Witnesses: Walter Sherry, Elizabeth Amy Nelthorpe.
Minister: H T A Benson
Registration No: 5451/1882
Death
Registration No: 12948/1927
Date of Death: 30 June 1927
Place of Death: Duntroon Hospital, Johnston st Annandale NSW
Name: Agnes Baker
Sex: Female
Age: 65
Cause of Death: Failure of the hearts action whilst under an anaesthetic
for sergical operartion for multiple abscesses of the lung.
Duration: Inqueast Sydney 11 Jul 1927
Medical Attendent: F.W.Fletcher, City Coroner
Father: -Firth ?
Fathers Occupation: Boundary rider
Informant; A.E.Baker, son, Hammond Ave, Ashfield; Registered 1 Jul 1927
Buried: 2 Jul 1927
Where: Church of England Cemetary Rookwood
Undertaker: Ernest Andrews
Minister: P Bazeley
Religion: Church of England
Witnesses: A.E.Baker, Arthur H, Shying
Where Born: Mudgee NSW
Place Married: Mudgee NSW
Age of Marriage: 19
Spouse: William James Baker
Children of Marriage: Living. Agnes E 45, Albert E 41, William G 39, Sydney J 36, Lillian M 34, Oliver J 36.
Deceased. 2 males, 3 females.
Mothers Death
Registration Number: 4656/1864
Name: Frances Firth
Date of Death: 22/8/1864
Place: Mudgee NSW
Sex: Female
Age: 34
Place of Birth: Irland
Children of Marriage: Agnes 3, Mary 18 months
Informant: S More, Undertaker, Mudgee
Cause of Death: Suffocating Catarrh
Length of illness: 2 months
Medical Attendant: W King
Date last seen: 22/8/1864
Date of burial: 24/8/1864
Place of burial: Mudgee
Minister and Religion: Rev James Gunther, Church of England
Undertaker: S More
Witnesses: Thomas Wesley, William Caplin
Registered: 23/8/1864 Mudgee
Thankyou.
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Note for my last post, I've noticed there is a lot of info that can be figured out that is missing from these by cross referencing each one, Frances's rough birth year for example and girls rough birth years.
Thankyou.
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Werty
I realise you have a lot to work on at the moment, but would you kindly answer the question I have asked at the top of this page.
So you know nothing of her( Mary Ann) addresses, children, husband's occupation etc.??
Do you hold the marriage certificate?
If not, is it on order from a transcription agent?
I am aware these questions have been asked before, but just trying to get an understanding here ;D
Sue
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The only creditable information I have on Aunt Mary Ann that I can think of is on her mothers death certificate. It says Mary Ann 18 months, Frances Death date 22/8/1864
Hi Sue, sorry. You must have missed my reply. Answer is the only info we have that I'm aware of is on her mothers Death certificate. (Transcription)
Thankyou.
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Hello may I ask if you prefer Sue or sparrett in posts,
We don't have anything to be able to retrieve on Aunt Mary Ann. She is more of a mystery than what her mother is. We have a bdm marriage referance but you might be better asking Majm about that one. I know she's tried to do some background research on her.
Referance is 4905/1881, John Long, Mary Ann Firth, Gulgong. Also has a second result with variation of last name Hirth instead of Firth.
Thankyou.
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Hello may I ask if you prefer Sue or sparrett in posts,
We don't have anything to be able to retrieve on Aunt Mary Ann. She is more of a mystery than what her mother is. We have a bdm marriage referance but you might be better asking Majm about that one. I know she's tried to do some background research on her.
Referance is 4905/1881, John Long, Mary Ann Firth, Gulgong. Also has a second result with variation of last name Hirth instead of Firth.
Thankyou.
Werty,
May I please suggest that you and Bron get together and decide who will order an official transcription of Mary Ann FIRTH's marriage with John LONG. It will cost you about $20 to order such a document. The document can be emailed to you as a pdf file.
NSW BDM has appointed three Official Transcription Agents. Your choice as to which one to order from. Here's the Rchat link with their contact details.
Transcription Agents
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
Cheers, JM
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Ok thankyou. We have ordered new transcripts for Agnes's marriage and Frances's death because these have a lot of information missing. It is going to cost $180 we are told for these but we are almost sure these have only been partially transcribed, they are also going to provide any other information they can find. I will retrieve this one your mentioning for Mary Ann from bdm.
Thankyou.
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I do not mind . Either is fine.
It was the point of ordering the transcription I was attempting to clarify, and, kindly JM has made it a little clearer.
I too feel this is an imperative in your quest.
Sue
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$180 .... you are being ripped off.
$20 for each document from the Official transcribers ....
The NSW BDM marriage register for the years 1856 to 1895 can have MANY MANY blanks. But with the official transcription copy, you get a clear picture of what those blanks are, AND you get the details of which church the couple married in, so you can in turn contact the Church, perhaps using the sample I wrote up for Bron earlier.
ADD, this way you get to the original record, which usually has ALL the info that was missed from the NSW BDM summary copy for the years 1856-1895.
Cheers, JM
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Possible match for Frances marriage. v1850277 36b1850 ref jonathan j Jackson, Frances foster NJ mudgee/gulgong. Then this as this Frances became Jackson. 2078/1860 William Bolton maried Frances Jackson mudgee 1860.
I have found these in search for children to the 1860 marriage to Bolton.
Need further help please.
Ref 9463/1860
name: William h Bolton,
father: William p
Mother: Frances
Mudgee
And
9858/1861
Name: William h Bolton
Father: William
Mother : Frances
Mudgee
Note 1st suspicion that there is a different referance number for both and an initial in one under father, apart from that identical.
Note my second suspicion, if you look at Frances's death info and presume that the info is all correct is says Agnes 3 which would have made Agnes born 1861.
Thankyou.
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$180 .... you are being ripped off.
$20 for each document from the Official transcribers ....
The NSW BDM marriage register for the years 1856 to 1895 can have MANY MANY blanks. But with the official transcription copy, you get a clear picture of what those blanks are, AND you get the details of which church the couple married in, so you can in turn contact the Church, perhaps using the sample I wrote up for Bron earlier.
ADD, this way you get to the original record, which usually has ALL the info that was missed from the NSW BDM summary copy for the years 1856-1895.
Cheers, JM
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$180 .... you are being ripped off.
$20 for each document from the Official transcribers ....
The NSW BDM marriage register for the years 1856 to 1895 can have MANY MANY blanks. But with the official transcription copy, you get a clear picture of what those blanks are, AND you get the details of which church the couple married in, so you can in turn contact the Church, perhaps using the sample I wrote up for Bron earlier.
ADD, this way you get to the original record, which usually has ALL the info that was missed from the NSW BDM summary copy for the years 1856-1895.
Cheers, JM
-
$180 .... you are being ripped off.
$20 for each document from the Official transcribers ....
The NSW BDM marriage register for the years 1856 to 1895 can have MANY MANY blanks. But with the official transcription copy, you get a clear picture of what those blanks are, AND you get the details of which church the couple married in, so you can in turn contact the Church, perhaps using the sample I wrote up for Bron earlier.
ADD, this way you get to the original record, which usually has ALL the info that was missed from the NSW BDM summary copy for the years 1856-1895.
Cheers, JM
sorry I couldn't figure out what to do then, bron63 rang them earlier and she was told $180 for both with background research as well. Bron63 can elaborate further on that.
Thankyou.
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"Mudgee" on the NSW BDM website is the then district of Mudgee, not just the township Mudgee.
Each NSW government department back in the 19th century had its own unique way setting its own boundaries. So when you see those "District" names you need to recognise that it does not just mean the town or the village or the suburb by that name.
An example, There's a suburb of Sydney by the name of St Leonards. Back in the 1870s "St Leonards" could refer to just about anywhere from Parramatta to Manly to Gosford, depending on which NSW government department was writing about ST LEONARDS.
"Mudgee" on NSW BDM 19th Century can be to within the outskirts of Gulgong, and out almost to Wollar, to Windamere, to Worlds End, and loads of other localities in that general area.
Cheers, JM
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Note 1st suspicion that there is a different referance number for both and an initial in one under father, apart from that identical.
Note my second suspicion, if you look at Frances's death info and presume that the info is all correct is says Agnes 3 which would have made Agnes born 1861.
:) Two different civil registration reference numbers means two different births being registered.
:) 1864 like all other years in our calendar, occupies twelve months. Agnes being aged 3, when her Mum died 22 August 1864, could be turning FOUR during 1864, but after 22 August 1864, or already turned three between 1 Jan 1864 and 22 August 1864, OR the informant may have been making a BEST GUESS of Agnes age, or the transcriber may have MIS-READ the handwriting and it may be "5" or "8". Mary's age may be 18 months, or perhaps there's a mis-read there .... perhaps 10 months, or 10 years, or 19 months, or 13 months or 15 months.
I am surprised you are asking for background research and prepared to pay for that research. I am sure that the researcher's techiques will be of a similar standard to many RChatters who give their time here freely. I feel sure that one of the first things any researcher does in these times, is to GOOGLE the name of the person they are researching. If that occurs, then they will find this thread easily, and see where you are already up to.
Cheers, JM
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Note 1st suspicion that there is a different referance number for both and an initial in one under father, apart from that identical.
Note my second suspicion, if you look at Frances's death info and presume that the info is all correct is says Agnes 3 which would have made Agnes born 1861.
:) Two different civil registration reference numbers means two different births being registered.
:) 1864 like all other years in our calendar, occupies twelve months. Agnes being aged 3, when her Mum died 22 August 1864, could be turning FOUR during 1864, but after 22 August 1864, or already turned three between 1 Jan 1864 and 22 August 1864, OR the informant may have been making a BEST GUESS of Agnes age, or the transcriber may have MIS-READ the handwriting and it may be "5" or "8". Mary's age may be 18 months, or perhaps there's a mis-read there .... perhaps 10 months, or 10 years, or 19 months, or 13 months or 15 months.
I am surprised you are asking for background research and prepared to pay for that research. I am sure that the researcher's techiques will be of a similar standard to many RChatters who give their time here freely. I feel sure that one of the first things any researcher does in these times, is to GOOGLE the name of the person they are researching. If that occurs, then they will find this thread easily, and see where you are already up to.
Cheers, JM
hopefully bron63 can help explain more here, by background research I was under the impression it would be for any other records they hold at the church or other archives they have access to. Bron63 can hopefully provide with better information as she was the one to contact them.
Thankyou
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I am very appreciative of the standard of the researchers here I must add, I didn't realise until yesterday exactly how much help Roots chat provides and the expertise displayed. :)
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I am very appreciative of the standard of the researchers here I must add, I didn't realise until yesterday exactly how much help Roots chat provides and the expertise displayed. :)
:) :) :) Some trivia ....
Worlds End is around 20 Kilometres to the West of Mudgee Township, not sure if that's measured from the Post Office or from the Hospital. :) But I am fairly sure it is 20 kms.
Add
http://www.mudgeehistory.com.au/Chinese/Chinese_p6.html
Cheers, JM
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I am very appreciative of the standard of the researchers here I must add, I didn't realise until yesterday exactly how much help Roots chat provides and the expertise displayed. :)
:) :) :) Some trivia ....
Worlds End is around 20 Kilometres to the West of Mudgee Township, not sure if that's measured from the Post Office or from the Hospital. :) But I am fairly sure it is 20 kms.
Add
http://www.mudgeehistory.com.au/Chinese/Chinese_p6.html
Cheers, JM
25 km roughly from mudgee post office to meroo creek worlds end :) :) :)
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So from your post I gather you have decided to not acquire Mary Ann's marriage certificate.
I have to say you have made a serious mistake.
Despite the advice of an expert you are overlooking what could be a vital source of family information
Sue
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Yes, I agree with Sue, it would be a serious mistake to fail spend $20 on an official transcript of Mary Ann FIRTH's marriage cert. It may well lead you to the details you are looking for about Agnes' parents.
$20 .... v $180 ???
25 kms from the PO to Meroo Creek ... yes it could well be....
Cheers, JM
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http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/collection-search
From my armchair, ‘quick looking’ across some of the NSW SRO online indexes, which of course point to actual records available at NSW State Records :
Squire FIRTH is mentioned several times in the index of the Register of auriferous Leases at NSW SRO. This is on the Gulgong goldfields, November 1874 and April 1875.
There’s also a firm PERRAM & FIRTH, Coach Builders and Saddlers at Coonamble in July 1903, this is Edwin PERRAM and Henry Clarkson FIRTH.
Deceased Estate file for Patrick FIRTH of Pilliga, gives date of death 29 April, 1932. In the remarks column it reads “or FRITH, Occupation : Labourer” …. So need to remember FIRTH or FRITH when searching online.
Walter SHEERY deceased estate file may have mention of the girls or Frances. Also, a George J SHERRY at Coonamble died 21 March 1888, as per that same Deceased estates index… Is he Walter’s brother, and was he helping raise the girls? Perhaps that file has some answers.
Perhaps Werty should be considering a visit to Kingswood and the State Archives there….
Cheers, JM
http://www.mudgeehistory.com.au/lets_chat/lets_chat_pg3.html
Scroll through, there’s various people asking about the Firth family, particularly Agnes May FIRTH. The Editor has noted a connection with the Perram family.
When I scroll through to follow that up, I find the mention of the Coach Builder at Coonamble that I posted about earlier, with mentions about Zilla PERRAM and Warrangunyah Station.
The staff at NSW State Records Office are fabulous, and you can take a USB and download images. There's NO entrance fees, and there's loads and loads of material. This is where most of the professional researchers would be heading to help with searching for Agnes and her relatives.
Why pay for them to look up the records that you can look up for yourself and have the thrill of perhaps holding in your hands some original document from your ancestors.
Cheers, JM
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Werty,
Perhaps you are not aware that there's possibly several RChatters who travel from their homes, out to Kingswood and look up and take photos of the contents of the various files. All voluntary.
I live too far away to be able to help out with that fantastic contribution to family history researchings.
Cheers, JM
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Ok thankyou. We have ordered new transcripts for Agnes's marriage and Frances's death because these have a lot of information missing. It is going to cost $180 we are told for these but we are almost sure these have only been partially transcribed, they are also going to provide any other information they can find. I will retrieve this one your mentioning for Mary Ann from bdm.
Thankyou.
hi Sue, I think you may have missed the post again, majm also commented on Mary Ann's marriage being a good idea referring to your post. I put I will retrieve this one you are mentioning in the bottom of this post. :) :)
Thankyou.
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Hi Majam, I am situated in the mid north coast, I moved away from Campbelltown some years ago now. Are you familiar with help in the areas from Nambucca to Corrindi at all? Bron63 lives around Sydney's south west regions and so does my mother.
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Hi majm I rang the church today they have said to send copies of the death cert of Frances and marriage of Agnes it costs a bit more then $20 they said an arm plus a leg more lol. I am gratefully for putting what to write to them as I am attaching it with the cert.
bron
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Hi majm I rang the church today they have said to send copies of the death cert of Frances and marriage of Agnes it costs a bit more then $20 they said an arm plus a leg more lol. I am gratefully for putting what to write to them as I am attaching it with the cert.
bron
Obviously the church didn't tell you that their registers have already been microfilmed & are freely available to the public ::)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.cat-vn1058138
http://nla.gov.au/nla.cat-vn5900206
http://nla.gov.au/nla.cat-vn5899683
*Copying of individual frames for research purposes are permitted*
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hi Sue, I think you may have missed the post again, majm also commented on Mary Ann's marriage being a good idea referring to your post. I put I will retrieve this one you are mentioning in the bottom of this post. Werty
I did not miss it (again)
I failed to understand your use of the word "retrieve"
It would appear so did MJ
I now gather you mean you will order a transcript.
Sue
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Hi Sue,
sorry. I can see where I have confused you. Because you were talking about getting a transcription for Mary Ann I thought you would have understood what I meant, I'll try remember to type names specific in each reply and realise that you are dealing with more than just me, I realise writing more conversation based probably might end up in cat and mouse as well as some people not being able to follow who it's for. I'm only use to talking to one person at a time.
Sorry again, just let me know if I don't respond correctly or if I'm being missunderstood.
Thankyou.
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Hi majm I rang the church today they have said to send copies of the death cert of Frances and marriage of Agnes it costs a bit more then $20 they said an arm plus a leg more lol. I am gratefully for putting what to write to them as I am attaching it with the cert.
bron
Bron,
I promise you that the Church will accept copies of the transcripts of the death registration certificate for Frances and the marriage registration for Agnes. Yes, NSW BDM charges a whole lot more for the "real deal" certificate, but you do NOT need that legal copy to conduct family history research. NSW BDM's website even says so. " it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate" and ADDING ... NSW BDM's website also says "Family history transcription agents provide full and partial transcriptions, or verification of details. A good idea if you only need the facts, and not full certified copies of certificates." I am quite sure that any Church volunteer doing their "look ups" requests is familiar with these transcriptions, and likely prefers them to the real deal certificate.
Merlin is giving you good advice too, re those parish register images. In fact everyone who is trying to help you and Werty here at RChat are all giving you good advice.
I will contact an RChatter who may be able to visit the NLA in Canberra in the next week or so, to follow up with the clues Merlin has provided.
Fingers crossed
Cheers, JM
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Hi Sue,
sorry. I can see where I have confused you. Because you were talking about getting a transcription for Mary Ann I thought you would have understood what I meant, I'll try remember to type names specific in each reply and realise that you are dealing with more than just me, I realise writing more conversation based probably might end up in cat and mouse as well as some people not being able to follow who it's for. I'm only use to talking to one person at a time.
Sorry again, just let me know if I don't respond correctly or if I'm being missunderstood.
Thankyou.
Werty,
from my experience, the usual jargon in family history circles (going back decades though, so could be 'new' words now) is "beg, borrow or steal/buy" the transcript, but I have not ever heard "retrieve" used in that sense. To me, if you retrieve something, you remove it completely from one place and take it in for yourself, so no one else has access to it.
Yes, you are talking to a wider audience than one. In fact you are publishing to a wider audience than one. RChat threads are very easily found via google. You do not have to log on to read them. So they are in the public domain.
JM
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Hi Sue and Majm,
I write this to you's just to provide a little about my self as it may help understanding my comments at times. I'm a logical thinker and very good problem solver, my talents at school were math, science, all design technologies, sports and arts. I performed poorly in English, geography and history. In saying this I was still able to achieve Dux of my school. This might help explain my search techniques and on occasions not leaving enough reference in posts for you's when replying back to questions. I have always been a reserved person and my communication skills have always been poor.
You may have to bare with me a bit as I'm battling depression, research, relaying new advances in our research, roots chat, letters, correcting the past family research problems, house hold chores and my 2 and 6 year old children, it's all a bit emotional at the moment, I am still fairly new to running a household and looking after children, involving myself in research that has been a void in my mind since a child because I have always been questioned by people about aboriginal heritage because of appearance and my noticeably different ways of thinking.ihave never felt I have known enough to identify, this has always saddened me and made me feel like there was still a lot of my life I was missing in order to understand myself. On top of this I am a man whose multi tasking skills are not without flaws.
Please quote any posts I might miss or that you await answers for and I'll try to reply as prompt and accurate as possible.
Thankyou.
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Hi Merlon,
thankyou for the link and advice, I will be going through these micro films today.
Thankyou.
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Hi Wertyperty
I can go to the NLA to look at the films but not till next week. You say that you are able to look at them yourself? Please let me know if you can as it will save me a trip.
Cheers, Judith
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Hi Wertyperty
I can go to the NLA to look at the films but not till next week. You say that you are able to look at them yourself? Please let me know if you can as it will save me a trip.
Cheers, Judith
hi Jud B,
I just tried to access the films but it appears I will have to organise a national library card. A lot of the results I have found are not available online either.
I am inexperienced in these searches so any help would be great.
I will keep you updated if I manage to figure how to search these records. I'm assuming I would be best conducting this research at my local library itself.
Thankyou very much for your offer, it is very kind of you to offer your time to help.
Wertyperty.
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Hi Majm,
I sent you a private message to try help you with a few of your early queries in this search.
Thankyou.
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Hi Majm,
I sent you a private message to try help you with a few of your early queries in this search.
Thankyou.
Yes, thanks, I have been reading it.
RChat does restrict the amount of words etc you can put in the one post or the one PM. I think it is around 5000 characters in each instance.
Family history researching is about sharing and helping each other. So I should mention that I am not a member of the FIRTH family. I am simply NSW centric in my own family history researching, so I am happy to help with pointers as to the "How", "Where", "When", "Who" and "etc" re NSW in particular , and family history practices in general.
But whether you are researching in NSW or elsewhere, whether you are researching Anglo families, or German families, or Aboriginal families, or Russian families, or Maori families, or any other culture, there's one basic rule. You start with what you KNOW about your own parents, and then you aim to find out about their parents, and their grandparents and work back through each generation, one step at a time, joining the dots, before you proceed further back a generation.
Cheers, JM
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Hi All
I am trying to work out how to aquire mary anne marriage cert .
I have not as yet send an email to st johns church as I have been reading the threads from you all and also about the price that should be paid for each cert. Also I clicked on thinks merlin had put up and in one of them it has the costs they charge for each ill see if I can find again and paste here so you can see what I got from the site.
Bron
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I just tried to access the films but it appears I will have to organise a national library card. A lot of the results I have found are not available online either.
I am inexperienced in these searches so any help would be great.
I will keep you updated if I manage to figure how to search these records. I'm assuming I would be best conducting this research at my local library itself.
No one said they were available online if you had read the references I sent you.
They are not available at local libraries. As far as I know you can only access these films at the NLA, SAG or the Mitchell Library. I have used them myself previously.
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Hi All,
http://www.cifhs.com/
This website has been around for quite some time now. In the NSW section on the Registered Births, Deaths and Marriages 1788-1905, NSW, the entries there are based on some copyright works from 1989, where a person has actually transcribed a number of the NSW BDM records that were clearly pointing to Aboriginal heritage/culture.
The NSW section is futher separated into sections under the subheadings Volume I, Volume II, Volume III etc.
Then the transcriber has (under each subheading) various points, which include a summary of some of the details of each registration, and in brackets the volume and line number within that volume. These are the NSW BDM references needed to help with purchasing an official transcription. They are the same reference numbers that any Official Transcriber will recognise, and which were also used by NSW BDM until June of this very year. There’s actually more than 120 volumes of these Early Church Records that are stored at NSWSRO and are not available for the general public to access as their condition has deteriorated.
Cheers, JM
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Bron,
Official Transcribers : You choice of which one to use. Please order a full transcription.
Ask a family history transcription agent
Family history transcription agents provide full and partial transcriptions, or verification of details. A good idea if you only need the facts, and not full certified copies of certificates. For more details and fees, see below.
Marilyn Rowan — P: 61 (2) 4658 1206 | Fax: 61 (2) 4658 1296
nswtranscriptions.com.au
Joy Murrin — P: 61 (2) 9585 1187 | Fax: 61 (2) 9585 1486
joymurrin.com.au
Laurie Turtle — P: 61 (2) 4573 1559 | Fax: 61 (2) 4573 0536
home.iprimus.com.au/lturtle
(Source : NSW BDM website )
Cheers, JM
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Hi All,
Re the death of a 34 year old Aboriginal Man in Mudgee in 1875, mentioned back much earlier in this thread.
This death is registered with the NSW BDM: (clue it is also mentioned on the cifhs website ;D )
Rego No. 7704/1875
Family Name JOHNNY
Given Name/s ABORIGINAL
Father’s Given Name(s) AGE 34 YEARS
Mothers Given Name(s) DIED MUDGEE
District: MUDGEE
I think it was registered late January 1875
Cheers, JM
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Majm thank you.
Before I send this can you just read for me to make sure this is right.
I am writing to you for your professional help in transcripting certificates as I am in need of the information of the missing pieces.
I have a death cert of my 3 x Great Grandmother from the yr 1864 and also another cert yr 1882 of my 2 x Great Grandmother
I am also wondering if you are able to obtain a marriage cert of my cousins at all with this I only have her name
date of birth when died and name of partner.
My 3 x Grandmother is the mother to the other 2 people I am asking about.
Could you please get back to me on mater.
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Majm
That is also the one we have been looking at but not to the extent of information you have put up.
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sorry but what is cifhs ?
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Bron,
You don't need to go to that detail. You simply need to click onto their website, and follow the prompts to place an order using their internet forms for the NSW BDM document you are wanting them to officially transcribe.
Cheers, JM
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ok ill go have another look because I clicked on link and took me to email them
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sorry but what is cifhs ?
Sorry Bron,
One of the many non government organisation is the Centre for Indigenous Family History Studies and their website is cifhs and here's their link.
http://www.cifhs.com/default.html
Cheers, JM
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ok ill go have another look because I clicked on link and took me to email them
My mistooken, I will get better links for you, back in a tick, and I will edit this post.
EDIT TO SORT
Marilyn Rowan
Website: http://www.transcriptions.com.au/
Joy Murrin
Website: http://www.joymurrin.com.au
Laurie Turtle
Website: http://home.iprimus.com.au/lturtle/
JM
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Re the death of a 34 year old Aboriginal Man in Mudgee in 1875, mentioned back much earlier in this thread.
This death is registered with the NSW BDM: (clue it is also mentioned on the cifhs website ;D )
Rego No. 7704/1875
Family Name JOHNNY
Given Name/s ABORIGINAL
Father’s Given Name(s) AGE 34 YEARS
Mothers Given Name(s) DIED MUDGEE
District: MUDGEE
I think it was registered late January 1875
DoD = 21 Jan, 1875 ;)
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ok Majm thank you.
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Majm
Thank you I am on the site.
Bron
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Ok so I need to print out for and fill out the details and fax back? Sorry
Bron
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The transcribing service that I use, well ..... You can usually pay with your plastic card, online.
You need to have the NSW BDM reference no. to enter.
Cheers, JM
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You could also try AIATSIS and see if there is any help they can give. There is a Family History section on their website.
http://www.aiatsis.gov.au/fhu/about.html
Judith
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Death
Year 1864
Registration Number : 4656
Frances FIRTH
Marriage/s
1881
4905
John LONG and Mary Ann FIRTH
1882
5451
William James BAKER and Agnes FIRTH
Cheers, JM
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Hi Majm,
I sent you a private message to try help you with a few of your early queries in this search.
Thankyou.
Yes, thanks, I have been reading it.
RChat does restrict the amount of words etc you can put in the one post or the one PM. I think it is around 5000 characters in each instance.
Family history researching is about sharing and helping each other. So I should mention that I am not a member of the FIRTH family. I am simply NSW centric in my own family history researching, so I am happy to help with pointers as to the "How", "Where", "When", "Who" and "etc" re NSW in particular , and family history practices in general.
But whether you are researching in NSW or elsewhere, whether you are researching Anglo families, or German families, or Aboriginal families, or Russian families, or Maori families, or any other culture, there's one basic rule. You start with what you KNOW about your own parents, and then you aim to find out about their parents, and their grandparents and work back through each generation, one step at a time, joining the dots, before you proceed further back a generation.
Cheers, JM
I just tried to access the films but it appears I will have to organise a national library card. A lot of the results I have found are not available online either.
I am inexperienced in these searches so any help would be great.
I will keep you updated if I manage to figure how to search these records. I'm assuming I would be best conducting this research at my local library itself.
No one said they were available online if you had read the references I sent you.
They are not available at local libraries. As far as I know you can only access these films at the NLA, SAG or the Mitchell Library. I have used them myself previously.
hi Merlin,
I'm not exactly sure myself about micro films being available online and I have tried to follow your advice the best I can but under the help section for searching records in the NLA it says if a record has been made to view online then a link will be available to view, I thought as much that my local library would not be useful so I made sure I stated it was an assumption so I could be corrected if wrong. Like I've stated before I am new to this and need help, a couple of records I found in the NLA as search results allowed online viewing but it asks for a national library account. I'm very tired and have accidentally written films instead of records in my post, I've got films on my mind, I need people to understand my literature skills are not the best and I will make the odd mistake. I was looking for films as well as other records but I'm still yet to understand the terminology in there as I did not have an option I could find to specifically search films, it does not appear that I will be able to search these records as I live in Coffs Harbour.
Thankyou,
Wertyperty.
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Going to get them emailed to me is that wise? Or get mailed.
Bron
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Hi Judb,
Merlin has pointed a few thing out to me and from my understanding I will not be able to view these microfilms, it does appear according to the NLA I will be able to view some records online if I get a national library card though. I live in Coffs Harbour so if I could accept your offer of assistance that would be very much appreciated.
Thankyou.
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I do know his name was johnny ...... and died in 1875 in mudgee age of 34
Rego No. 7704/1875
Family Name JOHNNY
Given Name/s ABORIGINAL
Father’s Given Name(s) AGE 34 YEARS
Mothers Given Name(s) DIED MUDGEE
District: MUDGEE
I think it was registered late January 1875
DoD = 21 Jan, 1875 ;)
ADD
http://oa.anu.edu.au/obituary/taylor-john-johnny-14342
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/30598617 Queanbeyan Age Sat 17 July 1875.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/30598619 Queanbeyan Age Sat 17 July 1875
Johnny Taylor’s funeral was “ Monday last” as per the Tumut and Adelong Times and The Rev Mr Jones read the service. The Ode Poem ON THE DEATH OF THE ABORIGINAL CRICKETER JOHN TAYLOR attributed Whitefellow, has the date of June 29.
This may be NSW BDM reference no. for that death: John TAYLOR, aged 28 years, died TUMUT, #387/1875
Obviously this death of the cricketer with the funeral at Tumut, end of July or early July, 1875 is NOT the same chap as the chap whose death is registered in the Mudgee District in January 1875 (Mudgee is #7704/1875)
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Going to get them emailed to me is that wise? Or get mailed.
Bron
emailed, as pdf attachments is best
Cheers, JM
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Majm
Ok thank you will do.
Bron
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Hi majm I rang the church today they have said to send copies of the death cert of Frances and marriage of Agnes it costs a bit more then $20 they said an arm plus a leg more lol. I am gratefully for putting what to write to them as I am attaching it with the cert.
bron
Obviously the church didn't tell you that their registers have already been microfilmed & are freely available to the public ::)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.cat-vn1058138
http://nla.gov.au/nla.cat-vn5900206
http://nla.gov.au/nla.cat-vn5899683
*Copying of individual frames for research purposes are permitted*
Hi all,
Can I just point out in this post that I need to be aware of how to view any research I might be provided because I'm learning and I don't want to upset anyone. I was not aware microfilms have to be viewed in person, I was under the impression I could view this online because I was provided links to go look at and the NLA's help says some records are viewable online.
Thankyou.
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Majm
Letting you know has been done. Now just wait.
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Majm
Letting you know has been done. Now just wait.
Thanks, I am sure everyone following this thread will be eagerly awaiting the information that comes back to you. It can sometimes seem like "for ever" but it will only be a couple of weeks.
Cheers, JM
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I put in for quick turn around so hopefully will have by wednsday next week.
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I really hope they fill in the gaps or is waste of time as we have already got them but with the missing pieces . As I have never done this sort of thing before ordering transcriptions and if they come back with the blank stuff missing mmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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This is just a thinking quote sorry lol
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I really hope they fill in the gaps or is waste of time as we have already got them but with the missing pieces . As I have never done this sort of thing before ordering transcriptions and if they come back with the blank stuff missing mmmmmmmmmmmmm.
They will transcribe exactly what is on the NSW BDM registers. That's why they are official transcribers. They are transcribing the NSW BDM registration for each of those reference numbers.
Cheers, JM
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Thankyou Majm.
A reply to one of your previous post about starting with your own parents then working back being the best way to research. I'm a bit behind on today's posts and will have to catch up tonight.
Yes I agree, that's what motivated me to join in on these chats, as I read through all the evidence of extended family members findings as well as what we could find and be provided I started to figure out what was common to all family members and what was added bits of story based on assumptions or Misinterpreted story over the last ( I'm guessing ) 80 odd years or so when Agnes's children would have started talking of their grandmother to their children. I have never met all the other family members that have been researching the last 12 years apart from Bron63 who is my Aunty. I am aware that bron63 knows of some of these other family members from childhood, I personally can't rule out any other family members stories as we don't know what is true in each story or not yet. The only thing I can rule out is the parts of each story that do not help with our research. I like to know what I teach my children is as accurate as I can provide and I think this is what other families have tried to do in an attempt to provide a better story for their families or themselves. I really hope that at the end of this exercise only one story will remain and be documented for all future generations to enjoy. Most of the family members that have evolved from Agnes have been quite large so we have an extremely big extended family, a number of which I am not game or able to put a figure to, it would not surprise me if it's in the thousands.
Thankyou, Wertyperty.
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Bron and Werty,
I think we should pause and wait until we hear that those documents have arrived at Bron's inbox.
The thread will not disappear, but you both now have time to get on with all the day to day things that need to be done that have nothing to do with family history researchings online.
Cheers, JM
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Thanks Majm,
A break would be good. Im exhausted. I will be conducting research in the background still and await these transcripts. :-* :-* Anything new I find that is directly related to our search I will post, otherwise I will keep checking back in the event someone else discovers something, or has a good lead.
Wertyperty.
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Hi judb,
Bron63 has ordered the transcriptions so a visit to the NLA is not necessary unless you would like to search for any other worthwhile documents, your kind offer has deffinately not gone unnoticed.
Thankyou.
And a big thankyou to everyone that has helped us on our research so far. :)
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Hi judb,
Bron63 has ordered the transcriptions so a visit to the NLA is not necessary unless you would like to search for any other worthwhile documents, your kind offer has deffinately not gone unnoticed.
Thankyou.
And a big thankyou to everyone that has helped us on our research so far. :)
Werty, The info at the NLA will be images from the original parish registers. NSW BDM was not receiving all the info that was on those original parish registers. NSW BDM was only receiving a summary of the information. NSW BDM and the Churches were in dispute from around 1856 to around 1895. So, often there's info missing from the marriages info NSW BDM. So we need to start with clean official transcriptions to know what to look for on the parish registers. Merlin has found where the National Library in Canberra has images of the Mudgee Church of England registers. And Judith has offered to go to the library and look that up. Bron has ordered the official transcriptions, so now it simply a matter of waiting and then when the info comes in "marrying up" the parish register info with the official transcription, as per the advice that NSW BDM has on its own website.
I am sure Judith will endeavour to find the time to get to the NLA, and I am sure she will have been keeping up to date with this thread.
Fingers crossed that we will then know more about Agnes Mum and Dad, so we can start joining some dots.
Cheers, JM
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Majm
I am having relax time while waiting for certificate my brain is exhausted lmao .
Thank you to everyone that has helped us up till now muchly appreciated, logging my typing down until more information.
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Received the cert todays today and nothing on them different to what had. Mary marriage cert nothing.
Bron
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Please type (or ask werty to type) the exact words in every column on Mary's certificate.
Sue
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Registration Number 04905
Date Married 24 DEC 1881
Place Married CHURCH OF ENGLAND PARSONAGE, GULGONG
Religion CHURCH OF ENGLAND
Name JOHN LONG
Name MARY ANN FIRTH
Conjugal Status BACHELOR
Conjugal Status SPINSTER
Birthplace NOT STATED
Birthplace NOT STATED
Occupation LABOURER
Occupation NOT STATED
Age NOT STATED
Age NOT STATED
Usual Residence WALLERAWANG
Usual Residence GULGONG
Father PARENTS NOT STATED
Father PARENTS NOT STATED
Mother
Mother
Occupation - Father
Occupation - Father
Witnesses EMILIE DOBSON, MARY JUDGE
Minister JOSEPH S. DOBSON
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went on bdm and cant find anything
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I rang the church again today and it is going to still cost $90 each for a search on them
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I went to the site for records from st john and couldnt get anything
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Hi all,
Late one for me back on the search tonight, I have a theory I need assistance with as I don't know how to find this sort of information or if it's even available. I've been searching the certificates we have for clues and one thing become apparent as good possibility. Agnes's death certificate is only missing 2 bits of information and that's her occupation and mother, otherwise complete. I know occupation can be ruled out if her duties were at home. This is what I ponder, I wonder if frances doesn't appear in Agnes's certificates for personal reasons. I noticed the informant was her son Albert baker. Her fathers details are filled out as father firth, occupation boundary rider. I understand that because Agnes was Agnes Baker nee Firth then the person that filled out the death details could have just assumed that his last name was Firth. Through my research another thing comes to mind. Walter Sherry was the mayor at one stage, owned a tailor business and was treasurer of some kind. Elizabeth Amy Nelthorpes father was a business partner of Walters and father Nelthorpe wife Amy king's father from memory was a surgeon, as I've been searching the Irish firths I have noticed this family had businesses and some also had part to do with the development of the heavy haulage railway. If Frances was born Firth and if she never married is it possible that Frances was a wealthy lady from the firth Irish families and not Agnes's birth mother. Given that it appears to me she could have been surrounded by wealthy people is it possible she was treated as a servant or taken from her parents etc. It's got me wondering why the certificate could be said to be complete if she had reasons not to like Frances and Albert mentioned Agnes's father but the mother who you would think he would have known as well is not there. Am I leading myself a stray or is this a real possibility.
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Another thing that comes to me referring to my last post as well is the ANZAC Aboriginal Firths Ernest and Francis Firth from Pilliga. These boys were born in the exact same years as Agnes's children in the late 1880's so it would be fair to say that their parents who were Patrick Firth and Kate Winifred macarney(mccarney), were around the same age as Agnes, I'm pretty sure this is the correct marriage bdm for the 2 boys parents, note if you look in Ernest's original army enlistment document I posted in previous posts and zoom in on mother ,Patrick was crossed out and replaced with KATE. 3062/1880, Patrick firth, Kate winninfred Maccarney (mccarney). Coonamble. The 2 boys were born in the late 1880's, this can be figured out off their war documents too. Searching back from Patrick firth I've hit the same brick wall as Agnes, Patrick firth and Agnes firth would have most likely been around the same age. Documentation that I can find on both as firth only starts at marriage, Both have last names of Irish settlers around the same areas.
What do you guys think.
If anyone's having trouble finding the links for the 2 boys the website you can find these in is mapping our Anzacs.
Thankyou wertyperty . :)
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Hi all,
Did anyone one find out anything more about Patrick firths history that is before his marriage to Kate, another thing that comes to mind is mudgee museum said we would have to ask the church about some notes that said possible other partners for Frances but we didn't get any other information on her recent death transcription so I'm curious as to what these notes are referanced to. I'm wondering if Agnes, Mary Ann and Patrick had the same mother and fathert but Patrick went with his father sometime after Frances fell pregnant with Mary Ann. I'm curious as to if Patricks father was a boundary rider. Another possible scenario.
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Butting in here as I feel this needs to be said.....
Wertyperty....
This thread is very long and long posts without facts or useful information may deter people from attempting to assist you.
Not everyone will have the time or patience to read your thoughts or information that is already on the thread.
The next step are the Parish Records at the National Library of Australia.
Obviously the church didn't tell you that their registers have already been microfilmed & are freely available to the public ::)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.cat-vn1058138
http://nla.gov.au/nla.cat-vn5900206
http://nla.gov.au/nla.cat-vn5899683
*Copying of individual frames for research purposes are permitted*
Merlin
The info at the NLA will be images from the original parish registers
JM
bron63 why are you contacting the church when microfilms of the parish records are available at the National Library of Australia and you have had an offer of assistance from judb to go to the NLA for you and unfortunately wertyperty declined her offer.
Please accept this in the spirit in which is written :).
Cheers :)
Cando
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Hi cardo, majm, sue, merlin.
I feel the need to explain myself. I had around 24hrs while waiting for transcriptions of Frances, Agnes and Mary Ann firth to go over what certificates we have, what I have learnt and try form a relationship to what problems aboriginal people faced around these times. My theory is based on this and I'm asking if anyone experienced here thinks it is worth my while to divert my research in this direction. The material I have based my theories on is based on what we know about the people that that had some part in the 2 girls life's. If these ideas based on what I've learnt are not helpful could my main helpers to date Sue, Majm or Merlin please let me know as I can modify them to remove them. I feel like I'm not going to find out more unless I have new ideas to research. I have relied on my memory but I am sure all this info I have given to support my theories is in previous posts but I couldn't possibly supply all the links to the info in 1 post. These 2 main theories I have to me are the 2 most probable explanations I can see. Am I wrong in taking this approach. Please let me know.
Wertyperty
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Hi Majm,
can I await your response here please to my last post because I understand you have been helping me the most and are update with our progress. I spent over 8 hrs on this alone last night and seen as it is such a long thread I don't want to deter people with long posts if they are not useful. One thing I noticed re reading my post on the firth boys is I'm not 100% sure if Patrick was aboriginal so I will research him more. Again from memory because I have way too much to sort through Patrick was a shearer?? Was this information you found on Patrick??
Thankyou.
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Hi there Werty and Bron,
Werty, may I please urge you to pause, we need to concentrate on finding out what information was given to the Reverends when they were organising for Agnes' marriage at Mudgee and Mary Ann's at Gulgong.
That way we will be better able to determine if the lass at Gulgong was actually Agnes' sister. May I mention that it is quite possible that the lass at Gulgong was NOT related to Agnes. I mention this because Agnes is not noted as one of the official witnesses. IF they were orphaned sisters, one in Mudgee and one in Gulgong, I would have expected at least one would have been a bridesmaid for the other. However, we now know that Mary Ann was married according to the C of E rites, which is the same as Agnes. We also know that Mary Ann's husband was from Wallerawang, and that Mary Ann may well have been a regular at the C of E, Gulgong, as this is where she has obviously chosen to marry (ie not at Wallerawang, and not at Mudgee,).
I was hoping that either or both marriage transcriptions would show WHO gave consent for either or both of the girls to marry. So may I mention that perhaps the girls were at least 21 years of age when they married. YES, I realise this would conflict with info on Frances' 1864 dc. BUT it is just another reason to pause and to wait for the details from the original parish registers. I will be endeavouring to source Gulgong. But I could be delayed, or perhaps unable to achieve access. I will leave Mudgee for Judith finding time to get to the NLA, or perhaps other RChatters can get to SAG and help there.
Registration Number 04905
Date Married 24 DEC 1881
Place Married CHURCH OF ENGLAND PARSONAGE, GULGONG
Religion CHURCH OF ENGLAND
Name JOHN LONG
Name MARY ANN FIRTH
Conjugal Status BACHELOR
Conjugal Status SPINSTER
Birthplace NOT STATED
Birthplace NOT STATED
Occupation LABOURER
Occupation NOT STATED
Age NOT STATED
Age NOT STATED
Usual Residence WALLERAWANG
Usual Residence GULGONG
Father PARENTS NOT STATED
Father PARENTS NOT STATED
Mother
Mother
Occupation - Father
Occupation - Father
Witnesses EMILIE DOBSON, MARY JUDGE
Minister JOSEPH S. DOBSON
Werty, may I particularly strongly recommend you pause your searching for anyone else with the FIRTH surname (including your current endeavours for Patrick & Kate's family) until we have fully assembled ALL the missing info from the TWO marriages (Agnes at Mudgee and Mary Ann at Gulgong). I am suggesting this simply because it is usually 'best practice' in family history to work from validated information of the family connection. By this, I mean, we work from the known info, rather than from the unknown. We have not yet found any logical reason to look out for others with the FIRTH surname, and it seems to me that even Mary Ann FIRTH's Gulgong marriage could turn out to be for someone who is NOT related to Agnes. We need to wait and get the info. I am currently making some off line enquiries BUT I do have real life family commitments, and I am waiting for relatives from the Mudgee area to return to their own home, and to then find time to help me to help you, so it could be a week or more before I can help with the Gulgong 'dots' .
So, please Werty, pause the researching until we can give you some detailed and validated info to re-commence your research.
Cheers, JM
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Ok Majm,
Thankyou, talk soon.
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Cando I haven't been on since I signed off the other day until I received cert.
Judb I would love to have ur assistance with the nla if it is still on offer would be gratefully appreciated.
Bron63
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Majm I agree and thank you for helping in more searching on this mater.
Bron63
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Anglican Diocese of Bathurst
Parish records are held by individual parishes, and are not stored in the Diocesan archives. For all enquiries about parish records or genealogical research, please contact the relevant parish by mail (address details are listed in the parish information on this website.)
Please note also that parish records are not public property, and parishes may charge a fee for researching historical information.
Access to recent information may be restricted for privacy reasons.
St Luke’s Anglican Church
PO Box 17,
GULGONG NSW 2852
The St Luke's Parish Registers don't appear to have been microfilmed so you will have to write to them and as mentioned, they may charge a fee.
So it's now up to one of you to write a letter of request for details of the FIRTH/LONG marriage.
Cando
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Ok, thank you Cando,
I will alert Bron63 and discuss this matter with her,
Talk soon :)
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Hi Majm
How is things going?
Bron
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Hi there,
I do have a couple of questions at the moment. Perhaps you already know the answers.
1. How sure are you that YOUR Agnes Firth is the daughter of the lady who died at Mudgee in 1864 (Frances Jane FIRTH)
2. You mention Agnes May FIRTH, so which official document lists her with a second name?
I am not sure when any of my rellies will be able to get to Gulgong to check any further about Mary Ann FIRTH. So
3. Have you considered writing a snail mail letter to St Lukes, Gulgong.
Please do consider writing a short polite letter rather than sending an email enquiry. And please do consider enclosing copy of the official transcription showing that you have already checked the NSW BDM holdings.
4. Do you want a suggested wording for a snail mail letter to Gulgong's Church of England?
5. Have you checked the deceased estate/probate file records at NSW State Records Office at Kingswood for any info about either Agnes or Mary in the Walter SHERRY file held there? There's no charge for viewing these files at Kingswood as these Archives are open to the general public.
Cheers, JM
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ok the only official I have on frances daughter agnes is frances death cert and her marriage but neither has a middle name this middle name came from lyn moloney you had seen she had been asking questions on roots aswell.I questioned lyn about agnes middle name she said it was past down to her mother. I also have agnes death and no middle name on that either and an article on her death from her children.A wording for a snail mail letter to Gulgong would be nice thank you.
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Anglican Diocese of Bathurst
Parish records are held by individual parishes, and are not stored in the Diocesan archives. For all enquiries about parish records or genealogical research, please contact the relevant parish by mail (address details are listed in the parish information on this website.)
Please note also that parish records are not public property, and parishes may charge a fee for researching historical information.
Access to recent information may be restricted for privacy reasons.
St Luke’s Anglican Church
PO Box 17,
GULGONG NSW 2852
The St Luke's Parish Registers don't appear to have been microfilmed so you will have to write to them and as mentioned, they may charge a fee.
So it's now up to one of you to write a letter of request for details of the FIRTH/LONG marriage.
Cando
Many thanks Cando.
Bron, may I offer the following suggestion. It is for a handwritten letter, so I am suggesting a letter, and I am not suggesting an email. This is so the Reverend can pass your enquiry on, if he has a volunteer church member to help with his non urgent enquiries from someone who is not from within his parish.
Cheers, JM
.Suggestion
St Luke’s Anglican Church
PO Box 17,
GULGONG NSW 2852
For the kind attention of the Reverend, or one of the volunteer helpers.
Dear Reverend,
I am enclosing a recent copy of an official transcription of a marriage registration held by the NSW Births, Deaths and Marriages. It is for a marriage conducted at St Lukes in 1881 I do not live in the district, but may I please ask you to advise me as to where I can view the parish registers that would hold the details the parties to the marriage as recorded on the original parish registers.
As you can see from the NSW BDM records, there’s quite a number of blanks in their summary holdings. I am led to believe that the original parish registers will have greater depth of details than the civil registrations from that time. .
I am also enclosing a stamped self addressed envelope for your kind reply, so please let me know where I can make a suitable donation to cover the expenses. Many thanks for your time.
Yours sincerely,
(Bron63)
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thank you for that majm I will send a letter to them tomorrow.
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I have been given two images from the parish register for Agnes' Marriage.
Info about Agnes from the parish register of her marriage.
Line 33 (in the parish register)
24th May 1882
St John's Church
MUDGEE
William James BAKER, Bachelor, England
and
Agnes FIRTH, Spinster, Casillis
married in the Church of St John the Baptist
According to the rites and Ceremonies of the Church of Engd
Both William James Baker and Agnes Firth gave their occupations as BRICKLAYER.
William gave his age as 21
Agnes gave her age as 21
William's usual place of residence was SYDNEY
Agnes' usual place of residence was MUDGEE
Sadly Agnes seems to have known very little about her parents. The clergyman has recorded that Agnes' father was ................. FIRTH, a Shepherd, and her Mother's name 'is unknown'
As Walter SHERRY was one of the witnesses, I was expecting him to have been able to give information about Agnes parentage, so I am becoming concerned about the accuracy of the oral history that Walter SHERRY was involved in the adoption of the two girls after the death of their mum....
Attaching a jpeg
Cheers, JM
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Thank you for your time on this majm, It hard to find out anything.
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MACGOVERN AGNES MOTHER FRANCES AT WELLINGTON REF #13967/1861
MCGOVERN AGNES MOTHER FRANCES AT WELLINGTON REF# 13967/1861
PACKER AGNES MOTHER FRANCES AT WELLINGTON REF # 13967/1861
Neil
I am duplicating this info that Neil found. The Wellington District that NSW BDM covered was quite an extensive district. This Agnes was obviously the daughter of a lady named Frances. There is just the ONE registration, but there's several indexed entries. This can occur when there's perhaps some confusing details where the baby's father's details are usually recorded. The index does not include the Father on this occasion.
But, as Agnes was 21 when she married in 1882, then she may well have been born in 1861, and if so, perhaps her parents were moving from or to Casillis, and passing through Wellington. This of course is speculation on my part and perhaps by way of eliminating this Agnes, an official transcription needs to be obtained.. (This Agnes was born 18 August 1861)
Cheers, JM
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That's the 3 we come across a while back and dismissed it. When neil put it up it had us thinking again only year was different being born in 1861. But then when we calculate a lot of things together it comes up born in 1861, So maybe this is her.
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I was given this birth date 16 feb 1862 she was born. Our cousin lyn said she thought she had the birth cert of agnes and said she doesn't. I asked this question as I seen a old post on roots saying she had them so I don't know where the date come from now is confusing lol
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Hi Bron,
Yes, I agree, it is confusing.
Perhaps you could contact Lyn and check her source for the February 1862 birthdate for Agnes FIRTH. Perhaps at the same time you could ask her if she had previously obtained the 1861 birth certificate that Neil mentioned (or its official transcription) and perhaps set it aside, pending further checks.
Earlier in the thread I posted electoral roll details I had found to follow up the sightings Neil had found. So perhaps Lyn’s earlier research had previously found the same information and perhaps sit it aside.
Either way, it may be sensible to consider adding the 1861 birth certs onto a TO DO list, as perhaps this is a likely step to finding Agnes’ parents.
I am yet to find anything that gives Agnes a middle name, and, as yet, I am unable to find anything to suggest she had an Aboriginal heritage. Perhaps, if Agnes spent any time on building sites, supporting her bricklayer husband, that her exposed skin became well tanned. Or perhaps any suggestion of an Aboriginal heritage comes from a more recent generation marrying into the family.
Back in August 2013, on a different thread , Judith found the Inquest information about Agnes. It displays her name as Agnes Emily BAKER, born Mudgee. Lyn had asked “Could someone who has access to these records please see if there is a reference to Agnes May FIRTH 1862-1927. She is my Great Grandmother” Here’s the link to Judith’s reply. (Noticing Agnes Emily rather than Agnes May)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=565133.msg5034152#msg5034152
Lyn replied “Thank you this is the family I am after”, so perhaps Agnes did use a middle name, but it was not “May”
Cheers, JM
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Agnes Emily is Lillian may daughter , agnes daughter is lillian
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No it isn't lillians daughter sorry, its her sister I just looked properly. I also looked at Judith links and weird agnes Emily baker died in 1949 born 19 Feb 1893
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Agnes Emily is Lillian may daughter , agnes daughter is lillian
and
No it isn't lillians daughter sorry, its her sister I just looked properly. I also looked at Judith links and weird agnes Emily baker died in 1949 born 19 Feb 1893
Bron,
There is a private tree at Ancestry that has Agnes Emily BAKER as 1893-1949, however, the NSW BDM index does NOT have a registration for that 1949 death under the name BAKER. Perhaps the lady who died in 1949 was listed under a different surname, perhaps she a married woman, and her death was registered under her married surname. (birth for an Agnes E BAKER, daughter of William J and Agnes BAKER, registered Leichhardt 1893 NSW BDM #19229)
Judith's info refers to Agnes Emily BAKER who died in 1927, Lyn confirmed this was the person she was seeking.
Cheers, JM.
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Sydney Morning Herald Monday 30 May 1949
HAYTER, Agnes Emily, May 28, 1949 after a long illness at her residence ……. Randwick …. Daughter of the late W J BAKER …..
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18117159
ADD
So Agnes BAKER nee FIRTH died 1927 as Agnes Emily BAKER, and her daughter Agnes Emily HAYTER nee BAKER died 1949 in the month of May. Perhaps that month (May) is the origin of the belief that Agnes FIRTH had a middle name of May.
ADD
From the NSW BDM index
Agnes Emily HAYTER 1949 #10615 registered Randwick
Her parents GIVEN names were William James and Agnes.
The online index does NOT provide a maiden name for Agnes Emily HAYTER.
Cheers JM
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that death notice is definitely our agnes Emily it has a lot of our family members listed underneath
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This has been followed up the Agnes MacGovern lead.
Agnes MacGovern, b 1861.
Married Alexander Mallock 1883 in Sydney.
Alexander Mallock died 1929 in Kiama.
At this stage there appears to be no link between our Agnes Firth and Agnes Mallock (nee MacGovern).
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That's good to know, Bron,
May I please ask for the details about that Agnes' parents as per that 1883 marriage please, as I am interested in how the surname PACKER has been sorted.
Cheers, JM
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Yes, I think we would need to know the certificate details of that marriage. ;D
As a matter of interest-
From 1883 to 1937 there were 5 marriages for women names Agnes McGOVERN
From 1850 to 1870 there were 2 births of females named Agnes McGOVERN
From 1860 to 1970 there were 3 deaths of women names Agnes McGOVERN
Sue
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MACGOVERN AGNES MOTHER FRANCES AT WELLINGTON REF #13967/1861
MCGOVERN AGNES MOTHER FRANCES AT WELLINGTON REF# 13967/1861
PACKER AGNES MOTHER FRANCES AT WELLINGTON REF # 13967/1861
I noticed Hugh and Frances McGOVERN had children in NSW before 1860, and their marriage recorded twice had the surname PARKER for Frances (so close to PACKER).
V1840557 90/1840 LD
V1840204 130/1840 LD
LD = St Mary's RC Sydney
Essie
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Thanks Essie,
I was looking at the following, which I suspect has a typo
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTD6-QBG
(Frances Mcgovern, baptised 18 July 1854, Yass/Murray, dau of Hugh McGovern and Frances Partker)
Cheers, JM
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Hi Bron,
I am concerned you are perhaps becoming side-tracked, so may I gently mention it is not sensible to just look at indexes, and then eliminate a possible sighting on that index without actually confirming that a particular birth in NSW then leads to a particular marriage in NSW and then to a particular death in NSW, particularly when I mention that the NSW BDM index for marriages does not give the names of the parents of either the bride or the groom, nor the ages of the bride or groom, nor any indication if they were previously married.
And of course, there’s other flaws in the NSW BDM index, including typos, different spellings, and some registrations have not actually made it to the online index. So we need to proceed with caution.
So, I am aware of the possibility that MALLOCK can have a number of possible spellings in the indexes and in the newspapers and in the various directories and in the electoral rolls.
Here’s some examples, where I suspect all are for the one chap, an engineer in Kent Street, Sydney back in the 1860s, 1870s and into the 1880s. Perhaps Agnes McGovern was his second wife, helping to raise the children of the first marriage, or perhaps Agnes McGovern was not known to this particular Alexander Mallock.
Alexander MALLOCK of 484 Kent St buries his beloved wife.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13385587 SMH 15 Dec 1876
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13386072 SMH 14 Dec 1876
Sands 1877 Directory, Sydney
Alexander MALOCH, engineer, 484 Kent St, (JM notes this is for Sydney CBD)
NSW ER 1878 WEST SYDNEY
Alexander MALLOCK, household, 484 Kent Street, Sydney
Alexander MALLOCK of 484 Kent St buries his beloved daughter
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13444448 SMH 15 October 1879
I can see a death registered in Sydney in 1886 for an Alexander MALLOCH, aged 53 years, just as I can see the death of Alexander’s daughter, Elizabeth in 1879 registered as MALLOCH, rather than Mallock, and the death of his wife in 1876, again under the spelling of MALLOCH rather than Mallock, and just as I can see the death of an Alexander G MALLOCH registered at Broken Hill in 1933. The chap who died in 1929 at Kiama was aged 69 years, and his name was recorded as Alexander MALLOCK, but I have not yet found where Agnes MALLOCK’s death is registered. Did she die interstate or overseas perhaps. However, I am not holding any of those BDM certificates, and so, I am purely speculating, based on my armchair searches of Trove and the NSW BDM indexes. And of course, that does nothing towards joining the dots between the Agnes McGovern/MacGovern/Packer born 1861 Wellington to Frances (but no father’s name showing on the index) and the 1883 marriage for an Agnes McGovern, or the 1929 death of an Alexander MALLOCK registered at Kiama.
Cheers, JM.
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understanding what is being said. I also found a lot of miss spelling in some of my searches just lucky I new where, when was born and birth and death cert of grandmother.
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Hi Everyone, I thought id let you know I went to mudgee to do some investigating found frances head stone as being so old they said they removed and just had the stones of her and others from years ago. Also I couldn't view the records at the church as it was closed early so that was worthless to me and the main reason for me to go . But I enjoyed looking around and seeing the churches they got married at and other stuff.
Bron
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Thanks, Bron for letting us know. It's really annoying when you go to a place and find you can't do/see what you went there for! I do understand, though, that many historical/family history societies are run by volunteers who do a wonderful job.
Judith
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Yes, thanks Bron for letting us know. Did you go on to Gulgong and have you followed up on the 1881 marriage for a Mary Ann FIRTH to a John LONG?
Cheers, JM
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Hi Majm
No didn't have time to follow on to Gulgong as ran out of time but will be going back in the newyear.
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Hi Bron63,
I have just discovered the RootsChat resource and have now registered. The 2014 chat thread re Adoptions has caught my interest.
Frances Firth (1830 - 1864) who lived in Cassilis, NSW in at least the early 1860's, is my G-G Grandmother on my Dad's side. Before he passed 10 years ago, my Dad told me a piece of verbal family history about a boundary-rider in the Cassilis district of NSW who was killed in a horse accident. That boundary-rider is said to have been Frances Firth's partner and father of her two daughters (Agnes May and Mary Ann Firth). It is thought that he may have been Indigenous (a Wiradjuri man?).
I have for a number of years been using the Ancestry.com and Family Tree Maker resources to piece together a Family Tree, with the help of my sister and a few cousins, but the boundary rider remains elusive! I have scrolled through a number of pages of the Adoptions thread but couldn't find any details that may help me to verify my family history. Do you recall seeing anything at that time that may help me to identify the boundary rider? I would be very appreciative of any assistance you could give. I have also sent this message to Majm. Thanks.
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This suggest the aboriginal man was Johnny https://www.myheritage.com/names/marry_firth
Marry Anne Long (born Firth) was born in 1863, at birth place, to Johnny Aboriginal (wiradjuri Tribe and Frances Jane Firth.
Johnny was born in 1841.
Frances was born on January 29 1830.
Marry had one sister: Agnes May Baker (born Firth)
Marry passed away of cause of death in 1941, at age 78 at death place.
https://www.myheritage.com/names/agnes_baker
Agnes May Baker (born Firth) was born on month day 1861, at birth place, to Johnny Aboriginal (wiradjuri Tribe and Frances Jane Firth.
Johnny was born in 1841.
Frances was born on January 29 1830.
Agnes had one sister: Marry Anne Long (born Firth).
Agnes married William James Baker.
William was born on August 28 1861, in Braintree Essex England.
They had 5 children: Albert E Baker, William George Baker and 3 other children.
Agnes passed away on month day 1927, at age 66 at death place.
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This suggest John Taylor wiradjuri tribe
http://www.mudgeehistory.com.au/lets_chat/lets_chat_pg3.html
...we have traced our bloodline back to Frances firth and have found information about john Taylor (white fellow) from tumut wiradjuri tribe he is also known to be from Wagga Wagga because of his hard work as a stockman and his cricket skills. In 1862 the year Agnes may firth was born there was an article in the Sydney morning herald 19 dec 1862, stating a known relationship between an indigenous man and a non indigenous woman from the stockman station in Wagga. john Taylor and Frances j firth were in a relationship. The documentation my mother has for Agnes May firth identifies her as aboriginal and Frances j firth as the mother, she also has documentation of john Taylor and Frances firth relationship,
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Welcome to Rootschat, Davideb,
Thank you for your post which includes the following
...... I have scrolled through a number of pages of the Adoptions thread but couldn't find any details that may help me to verify my family history. Do you recall seeing anything at that time that may help me to identify the boundary rider? I would be very appreciative of any assistance you could give. I have also sent this message to Majm. Thanks.
I hope you have been able to find the time to study all the posts on Bron's thread by now, as it builds a good picture of how to seek to help each other advance our own searchings. I am not a member of Bron's extended family and it is now several years since Bron commenced this thread. I would need to re-read and study the thread to refresh my memory of the quest to adequately respond to your question.
It is likely that Bron and Werty would receive email notifications confirming this recent activity on this thread, assuming the emails they used at the time are still actively receiving notifications from RChat.
Fingers crossed that the quest can be advanced,
JM
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Does anyone know if it was usual for adopted children in the 1910s to keep their original birthdate and birthplace?
Jan
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Yes :D
One set of my grandparents had seventeen of their own children as well as fostering a number of others. All the babies were raised as though their own, but kept their own surnames.
ADD
NSW :)
JM
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Thanks, JM. Does that mean that a new birth certificate would be issued with the new parents' names?
Jan
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Adoptions commenced in NSW in December 1923. :)
There are instances on NSW BDM historic births (so born more than 100 years ago) .... I give real life example, but NOT real life names
John SURNAME's birth registered in a regional NSW BDM district in 1908. John's mum registered the birth, and the registration does not include a father's name or any details.
John was in turn fostered (via a Lodge arrangement, fairly standard procedure at that time), by my grandparents. John's surname never altered.
When John was 14 or 15 he wanted to be apprenticed as a Baker. My grandfather discovered the Apprentice Master needed formal proof that Grandfather could sign the trade/bond papers. Grandfather then went to Registrar General's Office. Reg Gen simply allocated a fresh registration number for that year and retained John's BIRTH MOTHER'S surname on that new document. This NEW informant was named and his relationship was noted. - So (on the later one,) my Grandfather was named as informant, and the relationship was noted as FOSTER FATHER So there's TWO different registrations for my Uncle John at NSW BDM, but both are in his mum's surname.
note
I Have edited to try to help explain.
JM
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I have made slight modifications to my post # 323 :) (hopefully to make it clearer)
And, I have just checked NSW BDM online index. None of the other children fostered by my grandparents seem to have two different registration numbers. One was also apprenticed in a trade. Perhaps Grandfather did not need to prove he had authority to sign that set of papers.
JM
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Thanks for the very clear explanation. In the case of the other children, would the original birth certificate have remained without amendement ie no mention of foster parents?
Jan
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I have just been on phone to one of these delightful aunties, born 1919. She married using her birth surname and written permission of my Grandfather, he was recorded as 'foster father' on the NSW BDM mc. :) She needed her local federal MP to sort out an interfering public servant "cross questioning" her about her ID paperwork when she was widowed several years ago. She is happy to answer any questions if it helps anyone's family history - ask away ! :)
JM
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:) Her birth certificate makes NO mention of her foster family at all. This is because her birth was registered before (months before) she was placed with my grandparents. :)
I will phone her brother who was a senior officer NSW BDM and check other options :)
JM
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Thanks again, hope you don't mind me asking more questions.
So, if the birth was only registered once, and there's no record of a marriage or death in the birth name, then it's likely her name was changed by her new parents. Would a new BC be issued in her new name?
I just noticed you mentioned the fostering via a Lodge arrangement - would records exist of such an arrangement?
Jan
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Lodges kept their own records, different lodges had different ways of keeping records, and it depended also on who was the then current person responsible for the record keeping.
Formal Adoptions did not commence in NSW until December 1923, so there was no formal authority for the NSW Supreme Court to become involved in the (fostering) process
Any person could and can still become known by a name that has no bearing on the name on their birth certificate. It is not compulsory for a formal deed poll to be arranged. It certainly was not even a usual process back before WWII. :) When a child started school, it may have been a decision by a class teacher to use the surname of the new parents for that child, particularly if other siblings were also at that same school. :) No BDM paperwork would have been needed. Just because there's no NSW marriage or death registration found at the online index ... well it would be flukey but there are known flaws in the online index. Could the person have married elsewhere .... :) or become known by her partner's surname?
The Child Welfare Act has been amended many times .... here it is in 1924 :)
http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdb//au/legis/nsw/num_act/cwa1924n69222/
My rellie will think more about this and contact me tomorrow.
JM
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Thanks JM, you've given me a lead. I didn't think to check for a marriage under her mother's married name. And one has popped up with the same first name :-)
Jan
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Great. Fingers crossed.
Hopefully Bron (the OP for this thread) will be along shortly to contact davideb ;DHi Bron63,
I have just discovered the RootsChat resource and have now registered. The 2014 chat thread re Adoptions has caught my interest.
Frances Firth (1830 - 1864) who lived in Cassilis, NSW in at least the early 1860's, is my G-G Grandmother on my Dad's side. Before he passed 10 years ago, my Dad told me a piece of verbal family history about a boundary-rider in the Cassilis district of NSW who was killed in a horse accident. That boundary-rider is said to have been Frances Firth's partner and father of her two daughters (Agnes May and Mary Ann Firth). It is thought that he may have been Indigenous (a Wiradjuri man?).
I have for a number of years been using the Ancestry.com and Family Tree Maker resources to piece together a Family Tree, with the help of my sister and a few cousins, but the boundary rider remains elusive! I have scrolled through a number of pages of the Adoptions thread but couldn't find any details that may help me to verify my family history. Do you recall seeing anything at that time that may help me to identify the boundary rider? I would be very appreciative of any assistance you could give. I have also sent this message to Majm. Thanks.
JM
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Thanks JM. I think I'm on to something. Right first name, stepfather's surname, and his first name on her death in the BDM. Different mother's name and age at death is wrong but marriage date makes her a bride at 15, so that seems suspect. She appears in two online trees - , different middle names, no descendants and neither has parents for her. Tantalisingly there are two anonymous comments for her on the Find a Grave site, one of which mentions a younger sister which fits.
Not sure where to go from here. I will get the marriage and death certificates but don't think they're going to be much help.
Jan