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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: jimrob on Wednesday 20 August 14 21:53 BST (UK)

Title: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Wednesday 20 August 14 21:53 BST (UK)
Trying to find anything re James Albert Knighton (the family of) born 1902 in Liverpool with older brother Arthur and younger sister Ellen -- all living in 1911 with their aunt Mary Carpenter and older cousins Elza, Jane and William Carpenter, at 126 Farnsworth in Liverpool.
James Albert was my father, a ship's steward sailing out of Southampton when he died in late 1929 -- 8 minths before I was born so I never knew him. Any comments would be welcomed, thank you.
Jim R.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 20 August 14 22:07 BST (UK)
Hello and welcome  :)

There is this family

1901 3491/117/41

9 Roddlesworth Street

James Knighton 30 yrs able bodied seaman b Nottingham
Charlotte 29 yrs
Eliza 5 yrs
Arthur 3 yrs

Others born Liverpool

Regards
Heywood
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 20 August 14 22:12 BST (UK)
Hi and welcome to Rootschat

James Knighton married Charlotte White at St Aidans Church Liverpool in 1891

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/2DBH-QY2
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 20 August 14 22:17 BST (UK)
Hi and welcome to Rootschat

James Knighton married Charlotte White at St Aidans Church Liverpool in 1891

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/2DBH-QY2


That's great Carole because William Carpenter married Mary White  :) in 1886
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 20 August 14 22:21 BST (UK)
Struggling to find a death or re-marriage for Charlotte
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 20 August 14 22:45 BST (UK)
The only Charlotte Knighton marriage was 1923 in Northants and I tend to think she is the one b 1893 Northants

The children were baptised in the Catholic Church as follows

Gulielmus Knighton   born 10.11.1892 godmother Maria Helen Carpenter
Baptism 28.11.1892 St Alphonsus 
Father   Jacobi Knighton
Mother      Charlottae White

Also at St Alphonsus to same parents

Elisabeth Knighton born 18.6.1894 godmother Maria Helena Barber
Baptism  25.6.1894
 
At Sacred Heart to same parents

Joannes Albertus Knighton born    25.11.1899 godmother Maria Helen Carpenter
Baptism 3.12.1899
 
At St Michael to same parents

Jacobus Knighton born 4.12.1901 godmother Maria Carpenter
Baptism 18.12.1901

And at Sacred Heart to same parents.  Godmother Maria Helen Carpenter

Helena Knighton b 10.11.1903
Baptism  20.11.1903
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 20 August 14 23:05 BST (UK)
Quote
re James Albert Knighton (the family of) born 1902

Was he John or James?

Births March qtr 1900
John Albert Knighton     West Derby  8b 581

There is a James Knighton birth in 1902 but no James Albert
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 20 August 14 23:08 BST (UK)
It's very odd.

This looks like father James here (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D6657180) - his Navy record. It may show when he left the navy.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 20 August 14 23:09 BST (UK)
William James Knighton aged 7mths was buried 19th June 1893 at Ford Cemetary
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Wednesday 20 August 14 23:49 BST (UK)
I thank you for so promptly supplying information regarding my father James Albert Knighton, each piece confirms the other and my own information from the 1911 census -- although it would seem that Carole's data re Charlotte of Northants would not as likely be related to my grandmother Charlotte Knighton. Also Albert James was born in 1902 according to several documents, one of which carries his signature. Lastly, the west Derbyshire Kniighton is not my James Albert either, he was definitely James Albert not John Albert.
Re the navy link -- that would be my grandfather I guess, I'm not sure how to follow that lead up but will try to do so.
I must say how elated to have learned these facts so late in my life, I'm now 84, and I can pass them on to my 5 grownup children and my Southampton cousin --I am from Canada by the way -- maybe there are some of "my" Knighton's here too. Once again ... much appreciated.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 21 August 14 02:12 BST (UK)
I have now discovered a little more about the family of James Albert Knighton, my father who died 1929, several months before I was born in 1930 – about whom I had little knowledge whatsoever.
I'm grateful for the help of Carole W and Heywood ánd others of the RootsChat Forum, that together with original important material from my good neighbour and friend Angie, has enabled me to put together the following:
James Albert's father was James Knighton, born August 9, 1869 in St.Mary's, Nottingham  -- and who by age 15, in 1884, appears to have been in the Navy with the Official Number 128101.
I assume he later left the navy and ended up in Liverpool to work as a seaman there and in the 1901 cendus was listed as an able bodied seaman, aged 30 years old – a slight year or two difference there but I'm sure he is the right one because his wife and children are listed with him and are the correct names and ages according to my other references.
James Knighton married Charlotte White, a year younger than he, at St Aidans Church Liverpool in 1891. It appears that their first child was born around October 1892, named William James -- but lived a short life of 7 months, being buried 19th June at Ford Cemetary ( I assume in Liverpool ).
From 1901 records (I believe the census) supplied on this Forum by “Heywood”, it shows that there were two more living children in 1901, Eliza, 5 yrs, and Arthur 3 yrs, all living at 9 Roddlesworth Street. My father, James Albert was born the following year, 1902, and sister Ellen 2 years after that.
10 years later, the 1911 census shows Arthur, James Albert, and Ellen living with their aunt Mary Carpenter and her 3 older children at 126 Farnsworth in Liverpool. So from that point we don't know the whereabouts of the sister Eliza Knighton or their father, James Knighton (he may have been at sea) or his wife, their mother Charlotte Knighton -- sister of the aunt Mary Carpenter – their surnames before marriage being White. The ages of the above match ao we can be satisfied they are of the Knighton, Carpenter, and White families of Liverpool.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 21 August 14 02:16 BST (UK)

And I am a James too . . . thanks Jim R,
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Thursday 21 August 14 08:01 BST (UK)
Hello Jim,
We are glad to be of help.
I think this is Eliza in 1911 - perhaps with Knighton relatives in Nottingham where her father was born. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWS8-ZCF

Carole gave you the Catholic baptisms and Joannes Albertus -John Albert was born 25 November and baptised 3 December 1899. His parents were James K and Charlotte White. His birth was registered early in 1900 in West Derby registration district -Liverpool not Derbyshire.
However, he doesn't seem to be in 1901 census one can I see a death.
If James was referred to as James Albert, I wonder if the earlier one did die.

Regards
Heywood

Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 21 August 14 12:02 BST (UK)
Thanks Heywood -- Eliza in Nottingham matches the age so I think that is  correct -- may have been staying at the grandmothers -- and the fact that her mother was not in the picture in 1911 when the other children were with their aunt Mary Carpenter, perhaps she was not alive at that  time.

As for the Catholic family details, I am unable to see the relationships to ages of James Albert and his siblings and relatives -- even though the names Charlotte White, Carpenter and James appear there -- could that be coincidence I wonder ? Thanks for your efforts, a big help in uncovering matters connected to my mysterious past.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 21 August 14 13:39 BST (UK)
Hi Jim

Charlotte is somewhat of a mystery at the moment.  There is no death registration for her and if she was widowed, there is no logical re-marriage for her.

I have checked Catholic burials etc but there is no trace.  Do you have any info on your fathers siblings?
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 21 August 14 13:52 BST (UK)
Heywood -- actually no, nothing regarding the siblings -- and I only learned of them a few days ago. I have no knowledge either of religious affiliations, all on my mother's side are Anglo and I have no way of knowing whether James Albert was Catholic. Because of Charlotte Knighton being missing from the picture in the 1911 census, I suspect she may have died by then -- but Ellen, the youngest sibling of James Albert was 7 in 1911 so Charlotte must have been alive at least until 1904. Thanks. Jim R
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 21 August 14 13:54 BST (UK)
Woops, the above reply was meant for CaroleW -- sorry about that
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: CaroleW on Thursday 21 August 14 14:19 BST (UK)
The only birth that fits for Ellen is this one - Nellie being a "pet" name for Ellen or Helen

Births March qtr 1904       
Nellie Knighton     West Derby    8b   567

An Ellen Knighton married a William T Smith in Liverpool in 1924

2 possible births to that marriage - 1926 and 1929 but names cannot be given here in case they are still alive

Go to freebmd and look for Smith births with spouse/mother name Knighton.  Choose West Derby as the district from the drop down menu on your right    www.freebmd.org.uk
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: garstonite on Thursday 21 August 14 16:16 BST (UK)
JR  have a look at
www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk
Roman Catholic Baptisms .....4 baptisms for Knighton - parents James Knighton and Charlotte White..click on REQUEST FORM ...and you can purchase a copy for £3 each ...
 :)
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Thursday 21 August 14 16:32 BST (UK)
According to marriage registers William Carpenter married Mary Ellen White - father Patrick White.

I can't though, match Charlotte White with either of these.

Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 21 August 14 16:51 BST (UK)
Garstonite -- I did try that RC site re baptisms but rexceived the response: Sorry, but we can not find an entry to match your query. I also not that it mention the site covers only up to 1900 -- wherea my James Albert was not born until 1902 -- I tried from 1890 to 1900 but again get the same negative response. But tahnks anyway.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 21 August 14 16:58 BST (UK)
Heywood -- the 1911 census links Mary and Charlotte White by indicating that Mary (then Mary Carpenter)  is the aunt of the 3 of Charlotte's children living with her at the time -- surely that would establish the relationship would it not ? Thanks again for your help.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Thursday 21 August 14 17:03 BST (UK)
No I mean, I can't find her in earlier censuses to show the relationship.
They are both White on their marriages and Mary's marriage is in Catholic registers so shows her father as Patrick.
It is proving difficult to find them together.

Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Thursday 21 August 14 17:15 BST (UK)
Jim,
Are you happy that the findings are correct.

You mention that James is James Albert in several documents.

Do you recall his birthday?

We have here:
JamesKnighton-  born 4.12.1901. Baptised 18.12.1901

James Knighton - Birth registration West Derby March quarter 1902. He would be registered after Christmas in the New Year

James Knighton Royal Naval Reserve Record birthdate 4.12.1901

Death
James A Knighton December 1929 Southampton. Born abt 1902

At the moment it is only his death that has the 'A'

Is that what you have?
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 21 August 14 18:36 BST (UK)
Yes Heywood -- that is about what I have and I'm sure about the James Albert names. Here is what I have -- from the source:  Document number BT349 in the Registry of Shipping and Seamen: Register of Seamen, Central Index, Alphabetical Series (CR1) I have obtained a copy giving particulars of his employment as a ship's steward – obviously a passenger liner. Here is the information on that form:

It is a standard type of Merchant Navy record, date stamped 1-Sep-1927, it is a small 2-sided form, stating that he was born in Liverpool in 1901 -- was 5ft 8-1/2 inches tall with fair hair and grey eyes. James Albert is clearly written as his Christian Names and he was a First Class Waiter on the vessel Aquitania. The form is signed in competent and fluid penmanship by James A, Knighton. There are a few reference numbers related to his employment and unemployment insurance and at some later date someone has overwritten the word “Died”.

I do also have a copy of his death certificate that states that he died 1929 in the Southampton Hospital in the presence of my mother. It is not at hand just now but I'm fairly sure the name is given as James Albert Knighton, he was buried in Southampton cemetary and I have visited the gravesite.

Now with this information, new to me, I feel that I'm beginning to get to know him.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 21 August 14 18:43 BST (UK)
Hello Garstonite -- if you are still available, and can tell me where and how I may obtain the birth certiificate it would be much appreciated. Thank you. Jim R.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 21 August 14 18:57 BST (UK)
Sorry, I meant Baptism certificate, not birth certificate.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Thursday 21 August 14 19:06 BST (UK)
He may have used Albert- people do add other names.
There is a record- brief- of his confirmation, where he took the name Joseph as a confirmation name. If you are not familiar with that ceremony, it has no legal significance, just the adoption of a saint's name to confirm the faith.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Friday 22 August 14 21:27 BST (UK)
Is it appropriate to continue in this Knighton topic to begin to look for anything on Charlotte Knighton's father, Patrick White may I ask ?
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Friday 22 August 14 22:36 BST (UK)
Hello Jim,
Yes you can carry on in this thread or start a new one. If you start a new one, it would be best to link to here for the background.

At the moment, I think, we only have Charlotte's father as Patrick based on the marriage of Mary Ellen White to William Carpenter and her father us named as Patrick.
You would really need confirmation of Charlotte's father from her marriage to James.
I can see a Mary with a father Patrick but not Charlotte.
I'll check again.

Regards
Heywood
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Sunday 24 August 14 05:28 BST (UK)
From the foregoing entries to this thread, I have been able to construct a plausible scenario of the events and how the individuals mentioned relate to James Albert Knighton and I wonder whether it is permissible to post that here on this forum ? Thanks Jim R.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Sunday 24 August 14 08:56 BST (UK)
Jim,

As I said, certificates are really the documentation which is generally relied upon to 'prove/disprove' our plausible scenarios.  :) Please do post what you have constructed.
I am unsure re Charlotte - finding her with a sister Mary E and a father Patrick is proving difficult at the moment.

Regards
Heywood
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Sunday 24 August 14 14:18 BST (UK)
Thankyou Heywood -- I guess the best way to clear up the questions regarding Charlotte and her father would be to be able to contact a related family member who might know - not liJim R.kely but theoretically possible.    Jim R.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Sunday 24 August 14 14:30 BST (UK)
James Albert Knighton - an interpretation of details related to my otherwise "unknown" father
Born Liverpool December 4, 1901, died of peritonitis November 7, 1929 in Southampton, aged 27.

In looking for James Albert Knighton, I have discovered that his immediate forebears, on his father's side, are from Nottingham and on his mother's side, the White family, are from Liverpool . . . and perhaps earlier from Ireland.
James Albert seems to have grown up in a Roman Catholoic family and we have reference to his confirmation, a ceremony, I believe, that affirms the person's faith and is one of a series of functions of initiation into the Catholic church, taking place in the early teens in many instances.
The parents of James Albert
There is a record of the marriage of James Albert's father, also named James Knighton, to Charlotte White. We can henceforth refer to that James as James Knighton Senior to avoid confusion. At the time of the marriage, James Senior was aged about 20 and Charlotte White aged about 19, the wedding took place at St Aidans Church Liverpool in 1891. Other records indicate that James Knighton Sr. was born in Nottingham August 9, 1869 and  Charlotte was born about 1870, or 1871, in Liverpool. James Knighton Sr, in Nottingham, appears to have been in the royal navy or possibly the naval reserve, from aged about 15 according to an1884 naval entry and it would seem that after leaving that naval branch, still young, he moved to Liverpool to work as a seaman in the merchant navy.
We have no details at this time of James Knighton Sr's siblings if any. Charlotte White appears to have had just one sister, Mary Ellen White who was married to William Carpenter in 1886. Mary Ellen Carpenter was the godmother to each of the Knighton children.
James Albert's siblings, the childreen of James Sr. And Charlotte
James Albert had a brother, Arthur, and at least two sisters, Eliza and Ellen. The 1911 census indicates that James Albert, aged 9,  Arthur, aged 13 and Ellen, aged 7, were living in Liverpool with their aunt, Mary Carpenter, nee White, their mother's sister. The eldest sibling, Eliza, is shown on the 1911 census as living in Nottingham, perhaps with paternal relatives there, she was 16 at the time.
Other than his name on the 1911 census we have no additional information on Arthur and there is little more on Eliza and Ellen. But both of those female names appear to be “family'' names – names of other family members the names of parents or grandparents we can surmise. For instance, the name of the eldest daughter of both Charlotte and her sister Mary, was Eliza – perhaps named after their mother. And Ellen was the second name of her aunt Mary, Charlotte's sister.
There is a reference to an Ellen Knighton being married in Liverpool to William T. Smith in 1924 -- and two children born 1926 and 1929 may have been theirs. If they are still alive, I guess they could be my cousins.
Eliza Knighton was married and became Mrs. Shaw in Nottigham in 1915
The Knighton children were baptised in the Catholic Church and their baptism records identified to date list five children. Not listed there is Arthur Knighton who was born about 1898 according to the 1911 census.
From another source there is an entry referring to an infant named William James Knighton aged 7 months being buried 19th June 1893 at Ford Cemetary --  He apparently was the first born and the first to die. Baptism list follows

At St Alphonsus :
William Knighton born 10.11.1892 Baptism 28.11.1892
Elisabeth Knighton born 18.6.1894 Baptism  25.6.1894

At Sacred Heart
John Albert Knighton born 25.11.1899 Baptism 3.12.1899

At St Michael
James Knighton born 4.12.1901 Baptism 18.12.1901

And at Sacred Heart
Ellen Knighton b 10.11.1903 Baptism  20.11.1903

Where were the parents in 1911?
Since the parents, James and Charlotte Knighton, are absent from the 1911 census records, and the children were living with their aunt, the question arises as to whether they were still alive at that time, especially Charlotte. While it is possible that James, the father, being a seaman, may have been away at sea at census time it is more difficult to account for the absence of Charlotte, then aout 40 years of age if alive.
Grandparents
The Knightons of Nottingham, grandfather James Knighton,  and the Whites of Liverpool, grandfather Patrick White.
So there is still much to fill in . . .
Note: I would especially like to find out about Patrick White, his relationships and origins, if he is indeed James Albert's grandfather.
Criticism and comments welcomed. Thank you, Jim R.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Sunday 24 August 14 14:44 BST (UK)
No criticisms Jim. :)

The way forward and even then it may not help much I accept, would be to purchase the marriage certificate of James and Charlotte. It should confirm her father's name and occupation and perhaps give an address and witnesses to help trace her pre- marriage.

There is a published family tree mentioning the family. However, there is no information to help- we have more here.
It only mentions two children - Arthur and 'Lily' who seems to be Eliza. There are details of Lily's marriage and family.

Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Sunday 24 August 14 14:51 BST (UK)
Yes Heywood, welcome advice, I do intend to purchase any  official records available on Charlotte and James and also baptism certificates for James Albert if available --- I'm not sure from where to acquire those just now. Jim R.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Sunday 24 August 14 15:05 BST (UK)
The marriage shows as below on http://www.freebmd.org.uk
As you can see the page references are different and one is mistranscribed. Looking at the originals, it should be 739 I would say.

West Derby September quarter 1891

James Knighton volume 8b. Page 789
Charlotte White volume 8b page 739

You can order from here http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

You can also order the birth certificate of James Knighton  birth  March  quarter 1902 vol 8b page 579.

I can transcribe the baptism details if you wish, alternatively you can order that from Liverpool History Projects as Garstonite suggested earlier.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Sunday 24 August 14 15:12 BST (UK)
There is a possibility for Charlotte here but no clues yet

1891 2965/ 52/12

113 Lamb Street Kirkdale

Charlotte White 22yrs Soap Packer born Liverpool - boarding with Edith Owens, her sons and other boarders.

It is St Aidan's parish, which is where she was married.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Sunday 24 August 14 15:34 BST (UK)
Thanks, more information of interest for me. About the Liverpool History Projects site I visited at http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolrcbaptisms/ -- it returned no info and states database only up until 1900. Perhaps too I might have some response through the Knighton Family Tree you mentioned -- if I can contact a moderator maybe ..  anyway, I will continue, I hope, to add alittle more here and there -- and have learned so much in just one week. Jim R.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Sunday 24 August 14 16:23 BST (UK)
St Michael's

James Knighton   (Jacobus)
30 Cottenham Street
Birth: 4th December 1901
Baptism: 18th December 1901
Son of James (Jacobi) and Charlotte (Charlottae) Knighton (White)
Godmother Maria Carpenter
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Wednesday 27 August 14 06:53 BST (UK)
Heywood -- I'm back -- and have ordered the marriage certificate of James and Charlotte Knighton, assumed to be the couple mentioned above as married at St Aidan's church in 1891-- from it I hope to find the name of the father of Charlotte and her sister Mary Ellen, believed to be Patrick White as referred to above relating to the 1886 marriage of Mary and William Carpenter -- although no documented links can be found. But the two sisters are mentioned together on all the baptisms of the Knighton children and the children are in their aunt's household in the 1911 census. The marriage certificate might ship September 17.  Thanks, Jim R.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 27 August 14 12:20 BST (UK)
That's good and I hope there are some answers there, Jim. :)

Looking forward to hearing from you. I keep looking from time to time but nothing really reliable is showing.
I had one family in mind but then in 1881 they are in Manchester minus Patrick but no Charlotte either!
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Saturday 30 August 14 18:05 BST (UK)
Now that I am more familiar with what appears might be my Knighton family, based on several seemingly corroborative documented events, I would just like to clarify an item, or two if I may, while I await the purported parent's marriage certificate – just to be more sure that I have the right Knighton.

In looking back on this thread, at the fourth reply to my original question, posted by CaroleW, the first reference was to John Albert and I can see by a Knighton baptism certificate that he is the right one for “my” family.
It is the  second reference, that I would like to question, where Carole W writes “There is a James Knighton birth in 1902 but no James Albert” -- Question: Can we confirm that was a BIRTH or whether it was a Registration of Birth that might have have occurred late in 1901, say November or December for instance?

Since James Albert died 7 November 1929 at age 27, he must have been born in either November or December 1901 to still be 27 at death. (other references show such a birthdate, December 4th)

Your help is much appreciated, Thanks, Jim  R.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Saturday 30 August 14 18:11 BST (UK)
Here you are Jim,

This is what I wrote earlier re James's baptism- mentioned a few times -Jacobus and his birth registration in West Derby early 1902.

Heywood

Jim,
Are you happy that the findings are correct.

You mention that James is James Albert in several documents.

Do you recall his birthday?

We have here:
JamesKnighton-  born 4.12.1901. Baptised 18.12.1901

James Knighton - Birth registration West Derby March quarter 1902. He would be registered after Christmas in the New Year

James Knighton Royal Naval Reserve Record birthdate 4.12.1901

Death
James A Knighton December 1929 Southampton. Born abt 1902

At the moment it is only his death that has the 'A'

Is that what you have?
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Saturday 30 August 14 18:20 BST (UK)
Yes Heywood Thank you -- I am familiar that helpful post from earlier -- my current question though refers to CaroleW's comment about a James Knighton BIRTH in 1902 -- I just wanted to find out whether it really is a Registration of Birth and not an actual birth -- I want to eliminate any possibilities that there may be an alternative to the family that appears in your posting and that I accept as the right one. And as you wrote as well: "He would be registered after Christmas in the New Year".
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Saturday 30 August 14 19:10 BST (UK)
The other question that is bothering me is that if Charlotte and James senior were married in 1891, as shown above, why are there no children, apparently, until Eliza about 7 years later ?
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Saturday 30 August 14 19:54 BST (UK)
Carole meant the birth registration was in 1902. The birth certificate would give you the details. You would have to send for that.
It is a puzzle re the delay in births. There could have been deaths or he was at sea or ....
We have used your 1911 information and tried to track back. Lots does fit but unless it is supported with real evidence, it is all suppositions.


Added
William was born 1892, followed by Eliza.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Saturday 30 August 14 20:25 BST (UK)
Then for the moment we can assume that William you mentioned was the one referred to earlier above as having died aged 7 months, buried 19 June 1893.

We know the Knighton mother's name from the baptism records of James and his siblings and it clearly shows her to be Charlotte Knighton formerly Charlotte White.

The Aunt's name i
Mary Carpenter is listed as the children's aunt on the 1911 census and she is also shown as godmother to the children on each of their baptism certificates. Her middle name was given on some of those baptisms as being Ellen, she was Mary Ellen Carpenter.

There is a record of a marriage in 1886 between a Mary White and William Carpenter, who I believe is the aunt Mary. I hope the awaited marriage certificate will show the same father as  Mary, Patrick White -- if not then will try to get the James Albert birth certificate if there is one.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Saturday 30 August 14 21:49 BST (UK)
I hope we find something from the certificate!

I don't understand why you think there is no birth certificate for James. There is no James Albert, he may have used that name later for some reason.

That is,of course,  if this is all the family of your James Albert  ???
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 25 September 14 18:26 BST (UK)
I have at last received an official copy of the Entry of Marriage for a James Knighton and the former Charlotte White – the possible parents of my father James Albert Knighton, as discussed in the above comments.

The details are: Marriage took place at St. Aidan's Parish, Liverpool, 22 July 1891 between James Knighton aged 21 and Charlotte White aged 22. James was a bachelor and was a mariner, Charlotte was a spinster with no profession given -- [ however, elsewhere, in a census document, she was listed as a Soap Packer] – they were both living at 113 Lamb Street at the time of marriage and James Knighton's father is also a James Knighton, a weaver. Charlotte's father is Alfred White, carpenter. Witnesses were Charles Barber and Caroline Harden

With that information I was hoping to establish a firm link between them and my father James Albert Knighton, but I am not so sure that has been accomplished --  the main reason being that the father of the newly married Charlotte Knighton is given as Alfred White, whereas I seem to recall the father given for Charlotte Knighton's sister, Mary (Maria) was given elsewhere above as Patrick White. Also I would have expected Charlotte's sister Mary to have been a witness – as she was as godmother on every one of Charlotte's children's baptisms.

I know from baptism and other records that I have the right names for James Albert's mother -, I am trying to confirm the name of his mother's father ---- “somebody” named White.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 25 September 14 18:30 BST (UK)
Another reason for doubt is that I was sure that James Albert Knighton's father was also a mariner, (not a weaver) born in Nottingham I believe. Is there solution to this I wonder.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 25 September 14 18:44 BST (UK)
Afterthought: But how likely would it be that there were 2 couples with the exact right names  being married in their district ?  I wonder whether there is a census record of the two sisters when they were children living with their parents ?
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Thursday 25 September 14 18:53 BST (UK)
How frustrating for you jimrob.

The marriage details fit with Charlotte the soap packer though but sadly she is boarding in 1891 so no family there!

Heywood
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Thursday 25 September 14 19:01 BST (UK)
Another reason for doubt is that I was sure that James Albert Knighton's father was also a mariner, (not a weaver) born in Nottingham I believe. Is there solution to this I wonder.

Are you getting confused here between generations?
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Thursday 25 September 14 19:18 BST (UK)
Caroline Harden looks to be a neighbour from Lamb Street. In 1881 she is a Soap Packer - Caroline Mercer.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: garstonite on Thursday 25 September 14 19:24 BST (UK)
The other question that is bothering me is that if Charlotte and James senior were married in 1891, as shown above, why are there no children, apparently, until Eliza about 7 years later ?
William Knighton b 1892 - baptised St Alphonsus,,Lpool ref No 3674 - James Knighton and Charlotte White
Elizabeth Knighton b 1894 - baptised St Alphonsus ,Lpool ref No 3611- James Knighton and Charlotte White

http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolrcbaptisms/baptisms.php
1892-3674   ST ALPHONSUS   282-ALP-1-3 (120)   1892   1892   WILLIAM -    KNIGHTON   JAMES      CHARLOTTE   WHITE   

1894-3611   ST ALPHONSUS   282-ALP-1-3 (203)   1894   1894   ELIZABETH   KNIGHTON   JAMES      CHARLOTTE   WHITE   

These 2 look very likely for your James and Charlotte -I have only read the last 2 pages of the thread ...do you already have these 2 ??
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Thursday 25 September 14 19:34 BST (UK)
Yes Garstonite, in reply 5  ;)
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: garstonite on Thursday 25 September 14 19:44 BST (UK)
OK Thanks Heywood ...
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolaz/gi79.htm
middle of map - Blue school / red church is St Aidens church - Lamb st is also on the map
Kirkdale area of Liverpool ....as Liverpool FC wasn`t even formed until 1892 - they would all have been mad Evertonians at that wedding ... as I am ...lol
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 25 September 14 21:39 BST (UK)
Thanks immensely for your contributions and help for me -- I think I had better take a little time to review and digest this, start from the beginning again -- so many with the same names and living in that time period I'm confused . . .
I was going to answer the earlier question about being confused, saying I don't think so -- but maybe I am --  it looks like both Knighton and White families kept mostly to using names of their parents and grandparents – several generations of James – for instance – just like me being James too. And of course, mariners stop going to sea and do take up other occupations – that's a possibility re the older James the Weaver.

Confusion ?  for instance, this on the 1891 census:

Depending on when the 1891 census there may be connection here, or is it co-incidence ?
   I have an entry that lists both a Mary and a Charlotte, both single at the time -- and probably living as boarders with their widowed mother Mary aged 43 at 64 Eastborne Street --
   Mary White, widowed, age 43, Soapmaker
   Mary White, single, aged 24, Soapmaker
   Charlotte White, sisngle, aged 21 Soapmaker
So if the census was taken before the marriage on July 22 and if Mary was stilll single . . .But wait, I just looked back and see that Heywood sent a comment:
   “ William Carpenter married Mary White   in 1886
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 25 September 14 21:51 BST (UK)
Yes Garstonite – I do have those names thanks – perhaps not all lived too -- in an earlier post on this forum was:

The children were baptised in the Catholic Church as follows

Gulielmus Knighton   born 10.11.1892 godmother Maria Helen Carpenter
Baptism 28.11.1892 St Alphonsus 
Father   Jacobi Knighton
Mother      Charlottae White

Also at St Alphonsus to same parents

Elisabeth Knighton born 18.6.1894 godmother Maria Helena Barber
Baptism  25.6.1894
 
At Sacred Heart to same parents

Joannes Albertus Knighton born    25.11.1899 godmother Maria Helen Carpenter
Baptism 3.12.1899
 
At St Michael to same parents

Jacobus Knighton born 4.12.1901 godmother Maria Carpenter
Baptism 18.12.1901

And at Sacred Heart to same parents.  Godmother Maria Helen Carpenter

Helena Knighton b 10.11.1903
Baptism  20.11.1903
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Thursday 25 September 14 22:04 BST (UK)
1891 has the Charlotte White soap maker living at the same address in Lamb Street where she was married from a few months later.

I can't identify her in earlier censuses nor can I see an Alfred White, carpenter. :-\

I can't see the Charlotte with mother Mary  ???

Found the street - I think the page is missing or out of sequence  ::)

Found them now - they are dressmakers though, I would say.
I also think the street is Westbourne Street.  ;)
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Friday 26 September 14 05:51 BST (UK)
I would like to mention a source that might be useful for researchers looking for relatives who were in the merchant navy. I obtained comprehensive details about the dates and the vessels that my until now mostly unknown father served on during a period of almost 10 years, together with employment records listing his age, birth date, height, eye colour, complexion -- and even his signature -- but best of all there was a photograph portrait of him dressed in his steward's attire -- the only known photo in existence !

The material was provided by an archivist for the City of Southampton who advised that "there are records of service for seamen serving on board British registered vessels between 1918 and 1941". There are merchant seamen's associations and a maritime library in Southampton that, I believe, are holding those records.

Above I listed children of James and Charlotte Knighton, there was another, Arther, born about 1898, his name appears on the census lists for 1901 and 1911 -- but nothing else has come to light.

My next task is to locate the father's name for Charlotte's sister, Mary Ellen White who married William Carpenter in 1886 -- the name should be Alfred White -- but I seem to  recall seeing the name Patrick White as Mary's father -- that would make a problem . . .
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Friday 26 September 14 08:22 BST (UK)

Above I listed children of James and Charlotte Knighton, there was another, Arther, born about 1898, his name appears on the census lists for 1901 and 1911 -- but nothing else has come to light.


This family are quite a challenge  :)

Free BMD has a birth Arthur Knighton September Quarter 1897 West Derby 8b pg 416

I think it is odd that we have John Albert born March quarter 1900 and there is a death in the next quarter but in Barton upon Irwell  ???

You didn't apply for James birth certificate did you? Did his Merchant Navy records confirm that this is the right family?

Great find by the way re the record- you must be thrilled!
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Friday 26 September 14 08:38 BST (UK)
I am trying to find a baptism for Arthur.

In 1899 for John Albert's baptism, the address is 7 Houlton Street - godparents Thomas Canning and Mary Ellen Carpenter.
The Carpenters are at that address in 1901 and Thomas Canning is next door so it does all seem to link together - somehow  :-\

I've found him - transcribed as Heighton.

Arthurus Knighton - mixtae religionis . No address given just the reference to mixed religion where other entries show the address!
Parents James and Charlotte and Mary Ellen Carpenter is godmother -again!
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Friday 26 September 14 12:45 BST (UK)
Knighton Confirmations

I am just adding these for a time line - all Latin

Sacred Heart Church

1906   Elizabetha   Confirmed Maria Agnes     sponsor Joanna Carpenter

1908.  Arthurius.    Confirmed Josephus.        Sponsor. Gulielmus Carpenter

1912.   Jacobus.      Confirmed Josephus.        Sponsor Josephus Smyth

1912     Helena.        Confirmed Maria.            Sponsor Elizabetha Carpenter


Also at Sacred Heart

Joanna (Jane) Carpenter had a sponsor Maria Smith.
Jane Carpenter sponsor to Catharina Smith.

Jacobus Knighton sponsor to Alfredus Lawe in 1913. Is that your James or his father! Probably yours as he was already confirmed he would be eligible to stand as sponsor, I think.

So there is perhaps a Smith relationship but that could be through Carpenter name  :-\. They could just be linked through neighbourhood etc. I think the Smyth/Smith parents were Irish so just ignore for now. :)
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Friday 26 September 14 13:46 BST (UK)
Looks as though Arthur was in Merchant Navy also. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8045518
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Friday 26 September 14 17:01 BST (UK)
With the addition on Arthur, it seems the younger generation is being identified and since both Charlotte White Knighton and Mary Ellen Carpenter named their first daughters Eliza, I am guessing that their mother's first name was also Eliza. So if I find baptism records for Charlotte and Mary I might find their mother's full name -- but I have to be careful not to get them confused with the other White family identified with the same names and ages living nearby -- in fact sharing those names makes me think they are part of the extended family anyway -- all the commonly used family names point that way -- Can anyone kindly advise me of the best source for the Catholic baptism records for Liverpool/West Derby ?
Thanks, Jim R>
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Friday 26 September 14 17:03 BST (UK)
And that would help confirm Charlotte and Mary's birth date too.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Friday 26 September 14 18:01 BST (UK)
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk. Has RC baptisms but not early enough.
Ancestry also has them.

If I have the right Nottingham family for James he is listed as James W in 1881 - aged 11 yrs.

There is a death of James W Knighton 57 yrs in Sept 1927, Nottingham.

Also, if this is the right family, there is a brother Arthur. He is in Eccles, Lancashire in 1901 which is Barton upon Irwell registration district. That could account for baby John Albert's death being registered there.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Saturday 04 October 14 17:18 BST (UK)
Any thoughts jimrob - the death in 1927 and the possible brother connection?
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Saturday 04 October 14 18:12 BST (UK)
Heywood -- yes, it looks like they are part of James Albert's family -- the dates and locations seem right --
and I am gradually sifting methodically back through all the data I have been presented with to establish  the fullest picture. Both families use similar names when children are born, causing some confusion when brothers and sisters have children of about the same ages with same names.

My major problem remaining is that you have discovered that Mary White Carpenter's father is Patrick whereas the Marrriage entry I recently obtained show Charlotte's father as Alfred – That is a dilema, Alfred v. Patrick.

December 4, 1901, the date of birth given on the several documents I have pertaining to James Albert Knighton, convince me that I have identified the right James Albert Knighton, my father who died November 7, 1929, several months before I was born.

I can also be sure of the names of the parents of James Albert Knighton because they are given on the baptism entries of the St. Michael Catholic Church, in Liverpool (or possibly West Derby – part of Liverpool). The matching birth date is given as December 4, 1901.
When baptised he appears to be living at 30 Cottenham Street.
His parents are noted as Charlotte, former surname White, and James Knighton.
And I have accounted for his siblings to a small deree

The baptism entry shows the godmother to be Mary Ellen Carpenter, Charlotte's sister and the aunt to James Albert as shown on 1911 census when she was taking care of James Albert and some of his siblings. Charlotte's sister became Mary Carpenter on her 1886 marrriage to William Carpenter.

Because of the differing brifes father's names, Alfred and Patrick, what I am not 100% sure about is that I have the right marriage certificate for James Albert's mother and father. The Entry of Marriage that I have is for Charlotte and James, it took place 22 July 1891 at St.Aidan's Catholic Church in West Derby. The ages are correct according to matching dates given elsewhere on census documents and the location also appears to be appropriate for the Knighton couple. And how likely is it that there would be two Knighton-White marriages – not very I'd say.

But there are other similarly aged Charlotte and Mary Whites – probably close relatives of our Charlotte and her sister Mary, living in the same parish, even on the same street and working in the same occupation.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Saturday 04 October 14 18:27 BST (UK)
PS -- maybe the Alfred and Patrick Whites are brothers . . .
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Saturday 04 October 14 18:28 BST (UK)
Which are the other Mary and Charlotte census entries that are possibilities and on the same street?
I have seen a pair of sisters with the same names but they can be discounted- if I recall. If you have the ones you refer to and post the details, I will check.

There are one or two Marys but no Charlotte. We are assuming that they are sisters as they are both White and James is a nephew. That may not be true but obviously with the several baptisms it does seem very likely.
That is what makes it so odd that they can't be found together.
They could both be illegitimate and have invented fathers' names. People do that.

I think you said initially that both James snr and Charlotte disappear. The death certificate may shed some light on that- you never know.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Saturday 04 October 14 19:10 BST (UK)
Re the two "other" White sisters: I have a written note to myself as follows:
Piece 2942/Folio 18/ page 32
The 1891 census shows that a Mary White, widow, age 43 yrs, soapmaker, lived as boarder with her two daughters at 64 Eastbourne Street. Mary age 24 and single and Charlotte age 21 and single, both soapmakers --( as was, I believe, Charlotte Knighton before her marriage.)

I also have a note referring to a baptism of Charlotte Louisa White on November 29, 1869 at Parish of Walton on the Hill -- father Robert White, Mother Ellen White -- not sure of any connection -- except for the name Ellen . . .
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Saturday 04 October 14 19:29 BST (UK)
I also see that there is an earlier Knightons in Liverpool, there was a Charlotte Knighton, born in West Derby in the first quarter of 1845 -- that is many years before "our" Knightons apparently lived in the area -- or what ?
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Saturday 04 October 14 19:39 BST (UK)
PS -- the Liverpool Knightons of earlier years leads me to think that the Nottingham Knighton went to Liverpool to find work in the merchant navy and chose West Derby because there were a family or families of Knightons already living there .
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Saturday 04 October 14 19:45 BST (UK)
I think this the family you mean.

1871 3839/37/20

Stewart White 37 yrs
Mary White 23 yrs
Mary E A White 5 yrs
William S White 4 yrs
Charlotte White 2 yrs

1881. 3686/21/36

Mary White 33 yrs
Mary E A White 15 yrs
Living with her brother Thomas Cooper and family

1881 3669/ 37/16
Charlotte White 12yrs is granddaughter to James and Elizabeth Melvin.

I looked at this some time ago and thought for a while that this was Charlotte - no marriage for the Melvins but then I did find Elizabeth Cooper who matches. Therefore, I think that this is the family you have in 1891.

As I said earlier they are also Dressmakers not Soapmakers and the most important thing is that the other Charlotte White we have - the Soapmaker is at the same address in 1891 as the Charlotte who marries James Knighton.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Saturday 04 October 14 19:56 BST (UK)
PS -- the Liverpool Knightons of earlier years leads me to think that the Nottingham Knighton went to Liverpool to find work in the merchant navy and chose West Derby because there were a family or families of Knightons already living there .

I can't see any other Liverpool/Nottingham Knighton links. He perhaps just went there because of the port. :)
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Saturday 04 October 14 21:05 BST (UK)
Thanks, it will take me a little while to absorb this but I seem to have identified the more immediate family, regardless of the possible differences in the earlier father names -- what I will do is purchase the marriage certificate of Mary and William Carpenter to see what is entered there.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Saturday 04 October 14 21:40 BST (UK)
I was going to suggest that to see what Patrick's occupation was, although we have all other details from the Latin church record.
I also wondered if Charlotte used the 'Carpenter' surname as her father's occupation- I think Alfred was a carpenter, wasn't he?
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Sunday 05 October 14 01:26 BST (UK)
Yes, on the Marriage Entry it does say Carpenter. I have tried entering enquiries for an Alfred but to no avail -- but dozens for Patrick White, mostly Irish.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Sunday 05 October 14 01:32 BST (UK)
May I ask where I might find the reference to Patrick White as the father of Mary -- who apparently married  a William Carpenter in 1886 according your reply # 3
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Sunday 05 October 14 02:21 BST (UK)
The 1845 Charlotte Knighton, West Derby birth that I mentioned above, was listed in a Register of Births District 185, Vol XX, Page 1006 -- I still believe it is possible that that family of Knightons, being in West Derby, may have been known to or relatives of the Nottingham Knightons such that it would be natural for the Nottingham Knightons to have gravitated to them while looking for a place to live and employment in the merchant navy. Plausible I think.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Sunday 05 October 14 08:40 BST (UK)
May I ask where I might find the reference to Patrick White as the father of Mary -- who apparently married  a William Carpenter in 1886 according your reply # 3

It is listed in Liverpool Catholic Marriages collection- Ancestry or Liverpool History  Projects http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk. I think you can email and a copy is £3. However, it will not be the same as a civil record and does not have his occupation. I have previously given you the church marriage details.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Sunday 05 October 14 16:36 BST (UK)
" . . .It is listed in Liverpool Catholic Marriages collection- Ancestry or Liverpool History  Projects http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk. . . "

Thanks for the above, I did check that site and entry for Mary Ellen and did see the entry for Mary Ellen White and William Carpenter in 1886 -- but I did not see any reference to a father's name, Patrick or otherwise . . . still a puzzle for me I'm afraid. But thanks anyway.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Sunday 05 October 14 16:59 BST (UK)
You would have to pay to get the details.
The instructions are there.


I transcribed them earlier and thought I had posted them but will give them again. This is the Latin version.  :)

2nd August 1886 St Alphonsus

Gulielmum Carpenter 141 Arlington Street filium Joannis Carpenter

Marian Helenam White 143 Arlington Street filiam Patritii White

Presentibus testibus
  Arthuro Whittingham     2 Anglezark Street
Maria Whelan 12Silvester Street


Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Sunday 05 October 14 17:28 BST (UK)
Thank you so much for that Heywood -- at last I have it in front of me! Will addd to my file Thanks agaun.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Sunday 05 October 14 17:48 BST (UK)
It's a pleasure  :)

Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 09 October 14 17:30 BST (UK)

If I have the right Nottingham family for James he is listed as James W in 1881 - aged 11 yrs.

There is a death of James W Knighton 57 yrs in Sept 1927, Nottingham.
Looking back at this earlier post #68, the age looks right for James with a W -- but I also found a plain just James born 1870, wife Eliza, and who had children with similar names of those connected with James Albert -- William, Arthur, Ann, James S, John A. -- he was an Elastic Bandage Maker and lived for perhaps 20 years at Rye Hill cottages, St. Mary, Nottingham if I recall correctly --
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 09 October 14 17:35 BST (UK)
I guess it would be good to know whether James Albert's father had a second name -- also, for some reason, I was under the impression that JA's father was also in the merchant navy -- if that were so, the same source as that for James Albert, where we found his work records and photo, might also have his father's too.I will try to check that out.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 09 October 14 17:42 BST (UK)
Better ignore my last 2 posts, I'm getting confused with the generations The Bandage maker was born in 1821 or 22 -- maybe he was Jams Albert's father -- but aginst that is the son listed as  James S -- but reading the census entry I cannot distinguish an S as the initial anyway.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 09 October 14 17:44 BST (UK)
Another correction, sorry -- maybe the Bandage maker was JA's grandfather
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 09 October 14 17:59 BST (UK)
I also did see the James W Knighton in the Births Register  in July, Aug, Sept 1870 Vol 7B Page 2257 Line 305:  James William Knighton of Nottingham
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Thursday 09 October 14 20:14 BST (UK)
You are confusing me Jim  ;)

I am thinking/ hoping that James W is the father of your James.

James W's father is James, the elastic stocking/bandage maker.

The oldest James looks to have had two wives- Elizabeth and Eliza. I can't find marriages yet but that would be for the time you are sure that James W is the man you want.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 09 October 14 21:02 BST (UK)
Sorry about the confusion ... and yes, I also think James W, James William, registered birth being 3rd quarter 1870 -- is possibly the father of my James Albert -- I favor him also because the chosen Christian names of his 4 siblings that I have tracked, they seem to be the names commonly used in the family. His father appears as a Bandage Maker in the 1871, 1881, and 1891 censuses - but on the Marriage entry of 1891 for the assumed parents, James and Charlotte, the father's occupation is given as weaver -- that could be perhaps because the son James equated Bandage make with weaving I suppose.
On the wives, the Bandage maker was married to Eliza born about 1831 but she may have died between 1881 and 1891, the 1891 census indicate his wife is Jane Knighton, 10 years younger, his second marriage ?
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 09 October 14 21:06 BST (UK)
PS - The initial given to the Bandage maker's son James, on the 1881 census, is given as S, James S. Knighton, not James W. -- on the actual document's written script it is difficult to discern what the initial is
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Thursday 09 October 14 21:19 BST (UK)
PS - The initial given to the Bandage maker's son James, on the 1881 census, is given as S, James S. Knighton, not James W. -- on the actual document's written script it is difficult to discern what the initial is

He is transcribed as James W on the site I use although the writing on the census page is so bad, it us difficult to read.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Thursday 09 October 14 21:30 BST (UK)
1861 2466/ 65 / 23

James Knighton is married to:

Elizabeth 44 yrs born Radbourn, Derbyshire and they have William 12 yrs born Derbyshire and Ann 10 yrs born Notts.

I can't be sure of them in 1851. I wonder if William is Elizabeth's child and not James'.


1871 wife is Eliza 38 yrs born Hull.
1881 Eliza 50 yrs born Hull

1891 wife is Jane 58 yrs born London.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Thursday 09 October 14 22:37 BST (UK)
Very interesting -- possibly 3 wives, and in the first marriage to Elizabeth, they were living in Derbyshire -- and by 1861 they were in Nottingham -- he was born in Arnold Nottingham according to the 1861 census. More to think about for me. Thanks
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Thursday 09 October 14 23:48 BST (UK)
I can't find suitable marriages for Elizabeth or Eliza.

1851 has an interesting family

James Cook 31 yrs Lace Maker b Arnold, Notts
Eliza 34 yrs b Radbourne, Derbyshire
William 2 yrs b Derby
Ann 8 months b Nottingham

The children fit as does Eliza/ Elizabeth's place of birth in 1861. I would say that this is Elizabeth who is 'married' to James Knighton in 1861.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Friday 10 October 14 00:24 BST (UK)
Are these 2 families maybe -- the problem of dupicate names here ?
The 1861 census also shows the James Knighton, there, with wife Elizabeth was a 43 year old lacemaker born Arnold Nottinghamshire.
The Bandage Maker James Knighton, in 1971 was only 5 years older at 49, born in Arnold, Notts,  married to Eliza, age 38, born Hull, Yorks, with 3 children, Arthur, (3 years) James (8 months) and Annie (2 years?) -- still interesting though.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Friday 10 October 14 00:54 BST (UK)
I think there could be two scenarios:

James Cook / Knighton are the same person

Eliza/Elizabeth Cook and her children William and Ann go to live with James Knighton 1851-1861
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Friday 10 October 14 01:03 BST (UK)
1841 has a James Knighton 20 yrs, Lace maker  in the household of Walter Knighton 25 yrs in Albion Street Nottingham.

There is a James Cook in Arnold and one in Nottingham.

I can't see a James Knighton  in 1851.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Friday 10 October 14 01:50 BST (UK)
And the son Wiilliam Knighton does appear to be, at 33 in 1881, much older than the other younger children
Arther at 13, James at 11 -- somewhat difficult to account for -- except William from the earlier marriage to Elizabeth, maybe remained a while in Derbyshire and late joined his father, now by 1871 married to Eliza, with 3 new children of hers. Arthur, James, and Anny -- and by 1881 William has shown up with them all -- but not the older Ann listed 1861
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Friday 10 October 14 08:18 BST (UK)
Knighton
1861
William 12 yrs
Ann 10 yrs

1871
Anny 21 yrs - no William to be seen anywhere  ??? ???

1881
William 33 yrs

Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Friday 10 October 14 09:13 BST (UK)
1871:  And add Arthur 3 and James, 8 months, to Anny for the 1871 census. (No William)
1881:  And with William 33 in 1881, we have Artur, James and John A, aged 7,
1891:  Only John Albert
All still at Rye Hill Cottages in Nottingham -- but James Senior (68) is shown as being from London City, instead of Nottingham -- I assume that's a transcription error , it was his wife Jane from London City.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Friday 10 October 14 09:32 BST (UK)
I was only mentioning the two children who would be in 1851 census - William and Ann - possibly Cook.

There is a big question there. Are James Cook and James Knighton the same person or did James Knighton marry or cohabit with Mrs Cook.

It may be best though to confirm James W's death- if that is him and perhaps then you would have to start collecting birth certificates to establish the two Eliza/Elizabeths.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Friday 10 October 14 12:49 BST (UK)
I will give that some thought, although it is not essential for me to know the whole history, especially since I have no contact personaly with any of the Knighton family - Thanks, it has been interesting to speculate and more may come to light yet. JimR.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Friday 10 October 14 15:39 BST (UK)
I think it would be good to check that James W death to see if he is your grandfather as we thought both he and Charlotte had disappeared completely.

It's been a pleasure and I just sorry that we couldn't find Charlotte!

Regards
Heywood
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Saturday 11 October 14 03:53 BST (UK)
That's Ok, we did well and have a plausible scenario -- and given time I will be checking to see whether I can find out more and will report back accordingly. I am currently reviewing and revising my notes. Cheers.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Sunday 12 October 14 15:06 BST (UK)
.

1851 has an interesting family

James Cook 31 yrs Lace Maker b Arnold, Notts
Eliza 34 yrs b Radbourne, Derbyshire
William 2 yrs b Derby
Ann 8 months b Nottingham

It appears that in 1851 this family is living in Nottingham, Ann, just 8 months old, being  born there.
And Nottingham was an important centre for Lace making – providing employmant for James Cook.
Note: 10 years later, according to the 1861 census, the above Eliza from Radbourn appears to be the wife of James Knighton.
-------------------------------------------
1861 Nottingham
Some time between the census years of 1851 and 1861, it appears that the above Eliza and her two children, William and Ann, became a family with James Knighton where Eliza (Elizabeth) is identified on the 1861 census as the wife of James Knighton. James is 43 and Elizabeth is 44 – there are no other children, presumably Elizabeth is past child bearing age, and that might indicate that her association with James, at least in the 'marital'sense, came nearer to 1861 than to 1851 when she would have been 34.
The occupation of James Knighton is given as lacemaker.
Possible scenario:   Both James Cook and James Knighton were lacemakers, let us assume workmates for the same employer for several years, before and after 1851. They were about the same age and both were born in Arnold, Nottinghamshire so they may even have known each other since childhood.
For some reason, perhaps death or desertion, Mrs. Eliza Cook became, Eliza Knighton – either officially or unnofficially – at this time we have not yet found a record of marriage for them.
Question:
From the census records for following years it seems evident that James Knighton enjoyed being married, at least he did after the age of 40, with Elizabeth, Eliza, and Jane --- But what about the years before then, was there an earlier marriage that we are unaware of ? But if there was, why are there no children from such a liason that would likely have been living under his roof if that wife had died? Or . . . ?
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Sunday 12 October 14 15:12 BST (UK)
Or . . . was there a split in an earlier marriage in which the wife left with the children ?
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Saturday 22 June 19 11:06 BST (UK)
I've been absent for a few years but I am again thinking about genealogical matters pertaining to my biological father -- however I am faced with a dilema:

My father's name is James Albert Knighton, born December 4th 1901 in Liverpool, England.

James Albert was the 4th child born to Charlotte and James Knighton

I have established the names of the parents of my father from his baptism details as documented by the Roman Catholic parish of St. Michael's, Liverpool.

Father is James  Knighton
Mother is Charlotte White

The records of the 1901 Census, gathered earkier that year show that Charlotte's married name was Charlotte Knighton, married to James Knighton.

The census also provides the ages of  Charlotte as 29 and James as 31 years of age as of 31st March 1901.

From that we can calculate the birth year for the Knightons; Charlotte's would be 1872 and James would have been born 1870, subject to their birth months there might be a 1 year difference.

Now comes the problem:
The only marriege entry I can find shows a James and Charlotte being married on July 22, 1891 – which would be about right for my father's parents except that their ages are given as 21 for James and 22 for Charlotte. That would put their birth years as 1869 for Charlottes, 1870 for James. In agreement with census document for James but 2 or 3 years different for Charlotte.

Question:
Are the 2 Charlottes, mentioned above, the same one person or are they 2 people with the same names, both first and surnames?

If the latter, the 2 Charlotttes identified on the marriage certificate and the census are 2 people, it would also mean that they had each marrried a man with the same name, James Knighton, also born the same year, 1870. In other words, 2 Charlotte Knightons  (nee White) and 2 James Knightons

How likely is that?

Your comments or suggestions would be welcomed.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Saturday 22 June 19 11:59 BST (UK)
Ages often varied.

The marriage - https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Liverpool/index.html shows, as you say, that Charlotte was 22 yrs. her father was Alfred White, Carpenter.

Have you found any earlier records of Charlotte?

Jim,
I should have read through this before I posted the above   ::)
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Saturday 22 June 19 13:15 BST (UK)
Thankyou Heywood for your reply, you were very helpful in my original search of several years ago.

Unfortunately I've not been able to find any earlier evidence of her or her father but there are some entries for her sister, Mary Ellen White who became Mary Ellen Carpenter.

There was also a 12 year old Charlotte White listed in the 1881 census, born 1869, living with her grandparents that I like to think may be "my" Charlotte. The Knighton siblings are listed in other census years.

There is also a Charlotte White Birth Registration for the year 1870 in the district of Chorlton in Lancashire (Volume 8C, Page 722, Line 108)  -- but I don't know where that is  -- and I'm not sure how to follow that up.

I will continue searching I think, for a little while at least.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: jimrob on Monday 01 July 19 01:35 BST (UK)
Mary Ellen White, Charlotte White's sister.

Census records and Roman Catholic Church baptism documents show that Mary Ellen White was the sister of my grandmother, Charlotte White.

It appears that Mary Ellen was born about 1866. She married William Carpenter in Liverpool in 1886. The marriage is shown in the England & Wales Civil Registration of Marriages list with Reference Volume 8B, Page 826, Line 146.

It is also listed in the Lancashire Marriage Index for 1886 with Reference
REG WD/110/23

I would like to ask: How can I obtain a copy of the wedding certificate or a document showing names of Mary Ellen's mother and father and which of the above references should I give? I assume from the UK government or would it have to be from a genealogical site? (I live in Canada so it would have to be by mail).

Thanks Jim Robinson





























Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Monday 01 July 19 07:16 BST (UK)
Jim,
The marriage is indexed on Free BMD -https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

 this is the reference
September  quarter 1886
West Derby volume 8b pg 826
William Carpenter and Mary Ellen White

You can order through here https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate

The only extra information to what you already have though would be the occupation of William Carpenter and Patrick White.
Mothers’ details are not shown on marriage certificates.

Heywood

Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: heywood on Monday 01 July 19 07:20 BST (UK)
Jim,

A death has been mentioned in Nottingham for James Knighton, I think.

I am not sure if this death has also been mentioned.

Nottingham December 1930 vol 7b pg 440
Charlotte Knighton 56 yrs

I don’t think the age matches but I thought I would mention it.
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: CarolA3 on Monday 01 July 19 09:41 BST (UK)
Hello Jim and heywood :)

Liverpool Roman Catholic records are available on Ancestry.  (I haven't read the whole thread so don't know whether Jim has access.)

Translated from church Latin, the entry shows that William CARPENTER of 141 Arlington Street (son of John) married Mary Helen WHITE of 143 Arlington Street (daughter of Patrick) at St Alphonsus church on 2 August 1886.  No ages or occupations are stated, but of course they would be on the GRO certificate, currently costing £11 including airmail.

Hope this helps,
Carol
Title: Re: Knighton from Liverpool born 1902
Post by: CarolA3 on Monday 01 July 19 09:50 BST (UK)
The information I've just posted was previously given by heywood in 2014 - see reply #85 on page 10 of this thread.

Carol