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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Laois (Queens) => Topic started by: daydreamer on Thursday 21 August 14 14:45 BST (UK)
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My Greatgrand Pa Francis (Frank) McDermott married Jane Dawson (from Co Kerry)17th Sept 1872
at Parish Church Coolbanger Queens.
I have all the children 1st one was Jane b 1872
On Francis and Jane Marriage Cert it stated he was a widower. ( which was a surprise)
I would like to know who his 1st wife was and when she died, or anything about her.
And if Jane b 1872 was the daughter of his 1st or 2nd marriage.
I would appreciate any help to solve puzzle.
many Thanks
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Hi There
My first question would be, what was Francis' occupation on his marriage cert.
The reason I ask this is that McDermott is not a Coolbanagher surname so we need to figure out how he was in the area, and if he was from outside the area then his first marriage needs to be looked for further afield.
Tara
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Hello Tara,
Thank you for your reply.
He is listed as a servant, and residence was Mountmellick.
His Father as John as a Labourer.
His son John ( my Grandpa) marriage was at St Marys Church Donnybrook and his Father Francis was listed as a coachman that was in 1906.
I am not familiar with the places in Ireland,I have done a lot of google searches but still get confused.
Maureen
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Hi Maureen
I'm FROM Dublin yet LIVE in Laois so I know both counties well.
Well, the occupation makes more sense as it defo adds up to him not being a Coolbanagher man.
Coolbanagher is a lovely little area, it would be interesting to know who he was a coachman for. Emo Court is quite nearby.
http://www.emocourt.net/
Mountmellick was quite industrious and influential at the time too and had numerous big houses that Francis could have been coachman to.
Was Francis still alive in 1901 ?
Tara
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Where was his son John in 1901 ?
Tara
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I take it that this is Francis in 1901 and it states that he was from WICKLOW !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Pembroke_West/Turners_Cottages__Shelbourne_Road/1289153/
Tara
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I've also noted that Jane says that she was from Laois YET you have said that she was from Kerry ???
Can you clarify ?
Tara
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Francis' daughter Catherine's marriage !
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/ae83830002313
Tara
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Francis in 1911 and still states that he was from Wicklow !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/South_Dock/Power_s_Court/86219/
Tara
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Hi There
You have said that Francis married Jane Dawson in 1872 !
You also say that he had a daughter Jane in 1872 !
Are you sure that these dates are correct ?
Jane on the census is only 18 (although I know that census can be incorrect).
If you could just clarify dates as I'm confused ???
Tara
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I have found Francis in 1871 in Portarlington.
He had a daughter called Maria, and his first wife was called Mary !
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/afdd6a0207945
Tara
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OK SO
Francis McDermott's first wife was called Mary Clements !
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPYR-FLN
Tara
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Hello Tara,
You are a gem.
I don't know where John was in 1901, he was a career soldier with 2nd Batt RDF I thought he might have been at the Boer War.
My Grandpa on my Mum's side who was also a career soldier was also missing from 1901 and thought the same about him.
On Francis and Jane cert she was listed from Lauragh her Father was Richard and he was a farmer.
It would fit that Francis was from Wicklow.
My Auntie Kath came
to visit me in the 1970's and said she was going to Ireland to visit Uncle Bill, and her cousins I have some photo's from her visit, I have been looking for them in my files, it doesn't say on the back which side of the family he was from but some of them scenes from Powers Court and Avoca which I think is Co Wicklow.
Now our problem girl Jane 1872 I also thought they were cutting it a bit fine with Francis and Jane marrying in 1972. Katherine was born 10th Oct 1973 to Francis Macdermot and Jane Dawson according to the cert south Dublin no4 they were living 1 James Terrace and he was a waiter, the only other thing I can think of Jane could have been born 1873 Jan, and Katherine in Oct 1873.
It was my cousin who got all the certs when he was over in Ireland for a visit, and he e mailed them to me in New Zealand where I had lived for 26 years, coming back to Uk 2 years ago.
Poor Mary Clements she must have been very young when she died.
It is a shame none of the senior members of the family are living to ask questions, I am the senior member now and ended up with all the photo's etc
And all the unanswered questions from both sides of our family John's wife Our Grandma Martha Ivy Fennell is another story pops up now and again and to confuse us she changed her name to Margret.
But that is the joys of researching.
Thank you again for all your help
Maureen
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Hi Maureen
Glad to be able to help.
There is still work that can be done on this family !
Would you like me to go on helping or was it just Francis' first wife that you were looking for ?
Let me know !
Tara
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Hi There
Just to clarify one major error that you have made.
In your original post you stated that Jane Dawson was from Kerry.
She was NOT.
She was a Laois lady.
You have stated that her address at time of marriage was Lauragh.
HA You have made the major mistake of googling Lauragh, found a Kerry entry and 'ran with it'.
NO, the Lauragh that Jane was from is near Mountmellick in County Laois, near to the parish church that she married Francis in @ Coolbanagher.
I recommend that you change your family tree to rectify this !
Tara
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Hi There
I can see John's military records and he was away in South Africa at the time that our census was taken in 1901 !
Tara
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Hi There
I wouldn't get hung up on Jane Junior !
I think you can say that she was Jane's daughter for sure.
From what you are saying there is no paperwork saying that she was born in 1872.
I think there was an error somewhere along the way, as the only thing I can gauge her age on is the 1901 Irish Census which gives her an approx. birth year of 1882.
So, you have
Catherine McDermott b 1873 (based on the cert you have)
John McDermott b 1876 (based on rootsireland and military records)
Jane McDermott b 1882 (based on census)
Emily McDermott b 1885 (based on census)
Richard McDermott b 1887 (based on census)
If I was to hazard a guess I would say that Francis' first wife Mary died shortly after giving birth to daughter Maria.
Tara
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Just to answer ~
Yes, Powerscourt & Avoca are in Wicklow.
They are two major tourist spots so wouldn't necessarily indicate that those areas in specific are where the McDermott's originated from.
Interesting though in that there is a second Powers Court, in Dublin City Centre and Francis lived at the 'rere' of this on numerous records.
I'm interested as to what 'the rere' indicates. It's a very prestigious house but in a very built up part of Dublin. HUM I can't imagine dwellings of any sort there.
I wonder did Francis maybe work for whoever owned Powers Court at the time.
He must have had a fascinating life of sorts, travelling around, mainly it seems between Dublin and Laois working for a well to do family.
Intriguing !
Tara
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Hello Tara,
I would love you to continue helping me I didn't want you to think I was taking advantage of your kindness.
Ireland rere for rear, old French nier Latin retro back behind.
Richard birth cert states he was 21/6/1878 and they lived at Hales or Halls cottages.
Emily birth cert states she was born23/11/1884 and they livedat18 Turners cottages Balls Bridge.
No wonder I am confused nobody where I thought they were on the dates that was.
We will get through this.
Will post later to day, I am a night owl so off to bed now 4am.
Maureen
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Their ages are way off from the census allright BUT the fact that you have most of their birth certs is great and you know that THEY are the dates to be working with.
Shame that you don't have Jane's birth cert.
IF she was born in 1872, I think it's more probable that she was conceived out of wedlock, but her parents married before she was born.
The dates don't seem to tally with her being a child from the first marriage.
Also, on John's military records she is referred to as his 'sister' and NOT 'step sister' OR half sister.
Enjoy your bijou snooze zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Tara
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Hello Tara,
I bet you thought I was having along snooze.
Well I have just spent hours going through Ancestry etc.
I think I have got my family sorted.
Someone wrote to my cousin and said he was a Aussie cousin and that Francis 1st wife was Theresa McNamara who died in 1869., and Francis was born 1833, I told him it didn't seem right,
When I was Ancestry I found a Portman/McDermott family tree so had a nosy it was our so called Aussie cousin.
He had Jane Dawson as Francis (1833) 2nd wife, right wife wrong Richard. but it sorted out the children and the ages are now right 1901/1910 census.
Francis (Frank) b 1941 died 1911
Jane Dawson b 1948 died 1910
Katherine b 10/10/1873 died 26/8/1879 have cert
John ( my grandpa) b 23/1/1876 have cert
Male b 22/4/77 I think he may have died because he had no name, have print out
Richard b 24/6/1878 died 21/9/1880 have cert
Mary Catherine ( Kate) b 11/12/1879 have print out
Jane E b22/6/1882
Emily b23/11/1884 have cert
Richard b 21/6/1887 named after his brother who died.
Now what do you think of that!!!!!!
Would you be up for my Grandma (Johns wife) the Fennell's
Thank you again for your help wouldn't have got this far without you.
Maureen
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Hi Maureen
Well,
It's great that the tree is coming together.
It shows how you should never just blindly copy someone elses tree . . .
ALTHOUGH I wouldn't rule out there being a first wife, Mary being a second wife and Jane being a third . . . it's not totally out of the question BUT just put it on the back burner for now.
Shame we can't find the marriage to Mary Clements as it would show whether he was a widower then.
BUT it's very possible that your relation just found a marriage somewhere for a Francis McDermott and presumed that it was YOUR Francis.
So, back to Francis ~ he appears to have 'kept his nose clean' as we say here as I can see nothing for him in the prison records. While no-one wants their relation to have a criminal past, they are SUPER for pinpointing birth places ~ alas no luck there.
His father's name (John), and his father's occupation (labourer) are both too common to get any good leads, so for now I would suggest 'parking' this side of your research.
Jane, however, we SHOULD get some leads there.
A farmer called Richard Dawson in County Laois SHOULD get some leads BUT I can't see anything so far ~ I shall keep trying though.
Are you happy with all the children of Francis & Jane ? Do you know what happened them all, where they went to, did they marry, did they have children etc ? Let me know if you need help there !
Did you correct Jane's County ?
So, YES let me know what help you need with Fennell's, no problem at all !
Tara
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Blimey You are going to LOVVVVVVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEEE ME !
I found a prison record for Francis McDermott and he was from DELGANY in County Wicklow !
Yippeeeeeeeeeeee we now have a townland !
Don't panic re the prison record, he was just 'drunk' - sure we ALL have those records on our trees and you were arrested for anything and everything back then !
Anyway,
It was 1898 - he says that he was 52 (age slightly out but that's common) ~ 5ft 6 ~ Hair Brown / Grey ~ Eyes Brown ~ Complexion Fresh ~ Lost Front Teeth ~ Varicose Veins on Legs ~ Weighed 150lbs.
He was living on Ballsbridge at the time and was listed as a Coachman.
He got 4 days ~ HUM a bit harsh.
Tara
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You mentioned before how family used to visit Powerscourt.
Well, I have attached a map so that you can see how close Powerscourt & Delgany are !
https://www.google.ie/maps/dir/Delgany,+Co.+Wicklow/Powerscourt+House+%26+Gardens,+Enniskerry,+Co.+Wicklow/@53.1593875,-6.2072698,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x4867af4f64a15161:0xa00c7a99731f9c0!2m2!1d-6.091!2d53.131!1m5!1m1!1s0x4867a6fd021be2a7:0x3dbbbe4c7f7d85bc!2m2!1d-6.186633!2d53.184251!3e0
Tara
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This is the record as best as I can get it !
Tara
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GV For Delgany
No McDermotts on it which I thought might be the case :(
http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/wicklow/delgany.htm
Given that John was a labourer I said it would be trickier but HEY we are getting closer !
Tara
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Hold onto your socks !
This is SUPER hard to read BUT it looks like an Elizabeth and JOHN MCDermott having a bit of a fight in 1856 in DELGANY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Could this be Francis' parents ?
Tara
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There are a few prison records for an Elizabeth McDermott nee Thompson b 1838 ish in Delgany.
Hum, it also states that she was Protestant which helps as so was Francis.
A bit tight on ages but I'm trying to see IF she is a possibility as Francis' mum !
Also, there were Thompsons in Delgany on the GV !
Tara
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http://ireland.anglican.org/about/152
Tara
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It's getting exciting now
I have found a John & Eliza McDermott having children AT THE RIGHT TIME in Delgany.
John Thomas McDermott b 1830
Richard McDermott b 1838
Catherina McDermott b 1843
No sign of Francis, BUT this could be for a number of reasons.
These are nearly 200 year old records and a LOT are illegible or were mistranscribed.
Tara
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I shall post these for ref.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FG8G-CYV
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGV5-P5P
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FG6M-HDQ
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGXN-98R
Tara
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Re Turners Cottages
Richard Turner, best known for the Curvilinear Range in the Irish National Botanic Gardens, built his foundry, Hammersmith Ironworks, in 1834 on a six-acre site at the southern end of Shelbourne Road, immediately adjacent to Trinity College's Botanic Gardens. Many sections of the railings of Trinity College were cast in this foundry.
Turner built fourteen houses, known as Turner's Cottages, for his employees. These were located in the laneway opposite the Oval building and survived until the early 1970s. They were known locally as The Gut, for reasons that are not clear.
Tara
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. . . and more
http://www.treebird.co.uk/evasite/ireland_turners.html
Tara
PS Just wondering did Francis work for Richard Turner ?
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Sad
http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/a-tough-life-in-d4-in-the-rare-ould-times-1.1773036
Tara
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Hello Tara,
Well didn't you do well I am amazed.
I had to give myself a day off today, my head was buzzing last night with all the info, so I have paper everywhere . I am going to do my charts and get the families in some sort of order.
It was eye opening to read about Turners cottages, I used to conjure up the idea of rows of little neat cottages with roses around the door, but learn't differently when I researched my other side who came from Cradley West Midlands, they were chain and nail makers( they made the chains for the Titanic) the women and kids made the nails in their back yards and like Turners their cottages were the same, poor people they had it very rough, some very sad history( I love history, old castles and churches etc ) I have managed to get back to the late 1700's on this line.
Thank you again
I really enjoyed the sites you put up it is just knowing where to look and I don't, I had a smile over Elizabeth she sounded a real handful.
I will be in touch soon with the Fennell queries.
Goodnight Maureen
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No Probs at all Maureen.
I'm on a roll here today helping someone else with their tree ;D
Tara
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HI Tara my name is John McDermott Maureens cousin in Swindon England, I'm a bit confused about the first wedding of Frank as it shows he had a son Francis William born 1868 and his wife was Teresa McNamara which all works very nicely with his later marriage to Jane Dawson. I have been to Lauragh and seen where the house was they were servants i've been inside the church at Coolbangher as well. hope to here from you soon Regards John
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Hi John and Welcome !
First question is do you have a marriage for Frank to Teresa McNamara ?
Tara
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Hi Tara I'm trying to get my head round rootschat at the moment, in answer to your question i don't have any certificates but i will try and get them from another person i have made contact with. this is very confusing as i thought i had it all worked out.
kind regards John
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Hi John
Yes, please do get back to me with what paperwork that any of your family members have for Frank.
I will then do my utmost to help you guys piece this all together.
There is usually a simple explanation ;D
Tara
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this is the information we have received from someone in Australia, who claims her tree connect to ours. However, we are not sure we are talking about the same Francis McDermott, which is where she has made the connection, through one of Frances wives Jane Dawson.
The attachment is too big to send, can we have an email address to send separately please?
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I'm afraid that I don't give out my email address.
What is the attachment that you are tying to send ?
Tara
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Hi Tara it's a family tree of McDermott's from Australia showing Francis married to Teresa McNamara with a son called Francis, they employed a genealogist's in Ireland to do it for them but they missed my Grandfather of the list.
regards John
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Is the tree on ancestry do you know ?
Tara
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Hi John
OK I can see this other persons tree on ancestry.
Firstly I must state that I am NOT a professional genealogist.
Given that this other person hired a PROFESSIONAL GENEALOGIST I would usually defer to those with credentials BUT there is one vital issue that I would like your family to note.
The tree states, and I can only presume that they were given this information by the hired genealogist, that Francis was from Dundrum.
HUM
Dundrum is NOT in Wicklow - where ALL his census records state that he was from.
ALSO
Did you see the prison record that I gave you guys whereby Francis states that he was from Delgany in Wicklow.
The tree had given Francis ALL sorts of siblings based on a Dundrum family but I REALLY don't think this is the correct scenario.
ALSO
The tree states that there was a marriage for a Francis McDermott to a Teresa McNamara in 1868 YET there is NOTHING to back this up attached to the tree.
There is a child stated as being Francis McDermott Junior born 1868 to this couple and this is where the Australian Contingency enter the frame.
This is Francis Junior
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5ZX-ZY4
SO WHERE TO FROM HERE ???
There are a few scenarios ~
We know that Jane Dawson is 100% correct and is the mother of John McDermott, and this is of course the most important part of the tree as it's where you and Maureen come into the frame.
We know that Francis was a widower when he married Jane.
BUT he could have been a widower TWICE over.
He could have been married to Teresa McNamara, had a child called Francis and then Teresa passed away.
He could then have gone on to marry Mary Clements, had a daughter called Maria, and then Mary died.
He then, either way, went on to marry Jane Dawson.
There could also have been illegitimacy.
We know that he was married and widowed prior to Jane BUT it could have just been ONE of these ladies, making either of these 2 children illegitimate.
It's SUCH a shame that for some reason Francis was not fond of getting his marriages and children's baptisms officially registered.
Tara
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Are you still in touch with 'Robert McDermott' in Australia ?
I'm interested as to what paperwork he has to link all of this together !
Tara
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The Australian McDermotts
http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcdermott/messages/1826.html
Tara
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. . . and again . . .
http://www.sumgenius.com.au/mcdermott_family_tree.htm
Tara
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It appears that the McDermotts were living here in 1910 (55 Shelbourne Road)
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3301727,-6.2318879,3a,75y,268.51h,88.22t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sJyfRDW7WpdkrzB45qC9tUw!2e0
Tara
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Hi it's John McDermott just asking if you got any further with Francis McDermott as he was my GGrandfather as well. his first wife was Teresa McNamara and had a son FRANCIS jn