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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: robdavies66 on Wednesday 27 August 14 22:44 BST (UK)
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Thanks to 'Emyr Borth', I know that my 2x great grand uncle, Wiliiam HUGHES was baptised at the Parish Church, Beddgelert on 31 May 1807 and I've made the assumption (based on other family information) that he was born in April 1807 in Hafod y Llyn in Nantmor, Beddgelert.
He is the one member of my HUGHES family where until recently I've had no other clues about him.
However, thanks to an Ancestry Hint for the 1851 Wales Census, there is a potential new development. Taking what I've found (so far), in my logical order, is goes:-
* 1841 Wales Census, William HUGHES, Farmer aged 30 living at Bryngelel, Llanfrothen with Margaret HUGHES (his wife?) aged 30 & Eleanor HUGHES (his daughter?) aged 2
* Select Wales Births & Baptisms, Eleanor, bpt 15 Jul 1839 at Llanfrothen, dau of William & Margaret HUGHES
* E&W Birth Index, 1839 Q3, F(f)estiniog, Eleanor HUGHES -- I have a copy of the birth cert & parents are Richard & Catherine HUGHES
* 1851 Wales Census, William HUGHES, Farmer aged 42. born in Beddgelert & living at Bryngelynan, Llanfrothen with his wife Jane (!) aged 45, born in Llanfair plus his children Eleanor aged 11, John aged 9 & Margaret aged 7 - all born in Llanfrothen
* Select Wales Births & Baptisms, John bpt 8 Aug 1841 at Llanfrothen and Margaret bpt 2 Jul 1843 also at Llanfrothen, both with parents of William & Margaret HUGHES
* 1861 Wales Census, Jane OWENS, Farmer's Widow aged 58. born in Llanfyhangel & living at Bryngelynan, Llanfrothen with son-in-law John HUGHES, Farmer's Son aged 19 & dau-in-law Margaret HUGHES, Farmer's Dau aged 17, both born in Llanfrothen
I'm hoping there's someone with some inspiration who can either tell me wheter I'm on the right track or nor or who can give me pointers on how next to progress this.
Thanks & regards, Rob DAVIES
(a recent joiner of the 'Ancients' -- 70 plus)
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There is a marriage at Llanfrothen Parish Church 26 Nov 1846 (Merionethshire Parish Records 1538-1912):
William Hughes (widower, farmer), son of Edward Hughes and Jane Owen (spinster), dau of Evan Owen. Both residing at Bryngelynen. William Hughes signed, Jane Owen by mark.
There is also a burial at Llanfrothen 27 May 1843 (Merionethshire Parish Records 1538-1912):
Margaret Hughes of Brygelynen, age 37.
Hope this helps.
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Hi Rob
Brynycelynyen (various spellings) is in Croesor. pa. of Llanfrothen. It's now a café/bunkhouse/gallery owned by the local community; just outside the village, on the side of the road up the valley from where you turn left at a crossroads into the village.
You should have posted last week, then I could have challenged you to take part in the Cnicht mountain race, starting/finishing in Croesor, which was last Sunday. I was 2nd in our age group (70+), out of 2!
The daughter Margaret, 27; her husband (head), Charles William, 33; a servant; 2 Boarders, quarrymen; and Jane Owen, Boarding, Widow, 68, Annuitant, Llanfair Merioneth, are at Bryncelynen 1871 Census.
There is a John Hughes of correct age (+/- 1), a servant at Carreghylldrem, which is on the side of the main Beddgelert/Aberglaslyn to Penrhyndeudraeth main road, near bottom of Croesor valley.
Emyr
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Thanks Dragon T.
This is all good news but the best bit of all is the confirmation that this William's father is Edward HUGHES, as this aligns with the baptism record for 'my' William HUGHES.
What could now be the final clincher would be the marriage record for William to his first wife Margaret -- I was hoping the birth cert for Eleanor would have given my Margaret's surname but unfortunately it was for the 'wrong' Eleanor.
As Llanfrothen is an adjourning parish to Beddgelert then there must be a very good chance that they were married in one of these two parishes.
Note:- In the E&W Marriage Index there is just one possible entry for William HUGHES -- registered in F(f)estiniog in 4Q 1838 but the two possible brides are both called Mary OWEN! So, I'm guessing that William's first marriage was before Jul 1837.
Thanks for your help
Regards, Rob
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Hello Emyr & it's good to hear from you again.
Thanks for 1871 Census info as adds to the picture.
I stopped at the 1861 Census as I did not want to go further until I was satisfied in my own mind that this William HUGHES was the same William HUGHES whose baptism you found five years ago.
Unfortunately my running days are well & truly over.
After I had to stop at the 8k mark in the Chichester 10k in Feb 2013, when I got a sharp pain in my left knee & then could barely even walk, it took several months before the specialist stated that I had a worn inner cartilage and would never be able to run properly again.
She said that for me it losing my shock absorber!
It means I'm now a regular (3-4 times a week) at a local gym trying to keep my leg strength by using the cross trainer, the bike machines (upright & lay back) & the treadmill for hill walking (at 5k per hour speed & 11.5% gradient). I also swim a quarter of a mile after each session so funnily enough my overall fitness is now probably better than when I was just running!.
Off to the Mumbles this weekend for a (late) celebration of my 70th mainly due to Swedish schools hols ending in mid Aug. I'm picking up my elder dau & her two children at Bristol Airport tomorrow & then joining up with my other dau, our two sons and our other seven g/children.
We had our honeymoon at the Gower Coast 48 years ago & it will be the first time we've been back!
Best wishes, Rob
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Hi
I found this earlier but assumed that DragonT had answered your query:
Marriage: Llanfrothen, 22 Jan 1834 William Hughes of this parish to Margaret Jones of Llanfihangel.
Hope this helps.
Gadget
(Sorry about another Jones but we all have them - I've got 8 separate lines of them :-\
I've just found another line of them - the father of one of my illegit ancestors! )
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Thanks Gadget, this looks promising.
It may be co-incidental but William's second wife's birthplace is shown on the 1861 Census as Llanfyhangel.
No problems with the JONES surname as my great grandmother (mother of my maternal grandmother Jane HUGHES) was born as Mary JONES from Llansytumdwy -- so although David Lloyd GEORGE may not 'have known my father' (or his ancestors who all came from Glamorgan), he may have known my JONES ancestors!
Regards, Rob
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Sorry Gadget, but I should have asked in my original reply if the father of William (& of his bride Margaret) are shown on the marriage record.
If you don't ask, you can't find out the answer!
Regards, Rob
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Hi Rob
Sorry it didn't. Pre-1837 marriages rarely did :-\
Gadget
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Hi Rob
Assuming you've got the right William Hughes, the Bryngelynen family, and from replies by others and what I've been able to find, it appears likely that his descendants have married into a prominent family in the area. The familiy's ancestry is included in Ceiri Griffith's books of family trees. I seem to recall that you have a copy of his second book; is that so ? I have a copy of the latest edition, published 2012. I don't know, without checking at the County library or Archives, whether or not any changes have been made. In my edition there's something seriously wrong. He shows a brother and sister as having married, and also has made a mistake between 2 persons of the same name. I'm referring to [204] top right corner, in latest edition, 'Tanrhiw, Aberglaslyn a, Croesor Uchaf, Llanfrothen'.
I now have Census and other info re. families involved which should enable me to correct the error. It would help if you have access to one of Ceiri's books. I await your reply.
I won't be able to name descendants beyond brothers Emrys Annwyl and David Charles Williams. A second cousin of mine has married one of Emrys' grandchildren, but I've only met her a couple of times and am not in contact.
Emyr
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Hello again Emyr,
Currently I'm still only 95% confident that this William HUGHES is 'my' William HUGHES.
I've ordered copies of two birth certificates (one for John & the other for Margaret) which if they are for the children of the above William, then hopefully they will show mother's maiden surname as Jones -- which will raise my confidence level to 99%.
Anyway, I've already taken the plunge & started adding the details to my (public) Rob Davies' Family Tree in Ancestry. So far, I got as far as the all the Census records for Margaret plus her death records. From her husband, Charles' 1911 Census record it indicates they were married in 1863 (although I can't find any evidence to back this up) & had 8 children -- only 7 are on the Census records.
I can confirm that I have the 2003 edition of Ceiri Griffith's book & I've found the entries you mention on Page 204. However, I remain to be convinced that this links to 'my' William Hughes' descendants. The birth of Anne Charles Williams, daughter of Charles Hughes & Margaret, nee Williams was registered in 2Q 1882 & was living unmarried with the father at the time of the 1911 Census. In the book it shows Robert Anwyl Williams died on 18 Feb 1894 aged 29
Anne's brother David Charles Williams' birth was registered in 4Q 1873 so he would have broken a few records if he died in 1991.
By the way, I do have a famous living Welsh relative.
Professor Bryn(ley) Roberts, now 83. is my mother's first cousin -- both comes from my Bontnewydd Williams' line. He was one of the three tutors who taught Prince Charles Welsh & has been The Librarian at the Welsh National Library. Although I'm now in email contact with him we've never met, although I (& the elder of my two brothers both younger than me) stayed with his parents for a week in Aberdare in 1958!
Regards, Rob
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Hi
Does the edition you have of Ceiri's book show both Annie vch Charles Williams and Robert Annwyl Williams as being children of David Williams/Catherine Parry, and as also being wife and husband ? Also, does it show Annie/Robert's children as being Emrys Annwyl Williams and David Charles Williams ?
Annie vch Charles Williams married a different Robert Annwyl Williams. I've mislaid the paper I wrote details on; but from memory, they got married in 1911 after the Census date; Emrys born 1912 an David Charles 1921.
Emyr
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Hi Emyr, I tried to send a scan of Page 204 as an attachment but failed as the file is too large.
It does show Annie (no dates) & her husband Robert (date of death only) as the children of David Williams & Catherine Parry -- but clearly is only valid for Robert.
It does show Emrys (no dates) & David (death year only) as the only two children of Annie & Robert
Regards, Rob
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Great News,
I've now got copies of the birth certificates for John Roberts HUGHES who was born on 20 Aug 1841 at Penrhyn isaf, Llanfihangel (y traethau) & Margaret HUGHES who was born on 24 Jun 1843 at Bryngelynen, Llanfrothen where in both cases the father is William HUGHES, Farmer & the mother is Margaret HUGHES, formerly JONES.
Note:- I've also now got copies of William & Margaret's death certificates
So, I'm now 99% convinced that the life history of William HUGHES, my 2x great grand Uncle (& brother of my 2x great grandfather, Daniel Hughes 1801- 876) is:-
* Baptised on 31 May 1807 at the Parish Church, Beddgelert, with parents as Edward & Catherine HUGHES
* Married first wife Margaret JoONES on 22 Jan 1834 at Llanfihangel (y taethau?) where his father is shown as Edward HUGHES
* His & Margaret's first child, Eleanor HUGHES was baptised on 15 Jul 1839 at the Parish Church, Llanfrothen
* He, Margaret & Eleanor are shown on the 1841 Census as living at Bryngelen, Llanfrothen
* His & Margaret's second child, John Roberts HUGHES was born on 20 Aug 1841 at Penrhyn isaf, Llanfihangel (home of Margaret's parents?) and baptised on 8 Aug 1841 at the Parish Church, Llanfrothen
* His & Margaret's third child, Margaret HUGHES, was born on 24 Jun 1843 at Bryngelynen, Llanfrothen and baptised on 2 Jul 1843 at the Parish Church, Llanfrothen
* His wife Margaret died on 24 Jun 1843 at Bryngelynen, Llanfrothen -- was she buried at the Parish Church, Llanfrothen on 27 Jun 1843 rather than 27 May 1843 , as per dragon T's RootsChat message (reply #1) dated 28 Aug 2014?
* Married second wife, Jane OWEN(S) on 26 Nov 1846 at the Parish Church, Llanfrothen
* He, Jane & his three children from his first marriage (Eleanor, John & Margaret) are shown on the 1851 Census as living at Bryngelynen, Llanfrothen
* He died on 20 Jan 1854 at Bryngelynen, Llanfrothen -- but don't have any burial details
Unfortunately with surnames of HUGHES, JONES & OWEN(S) it's impossible to be 100% certain as it's always possible that there's another family around that time who also 'match up' -- as I've discovered to my cost with my paternal grandmother's ancestors from Somerset!
If anyone can add more light on this William HUGHES, then this would be great.
But, in all honesty I'm only expecting (at best) it will only be for his descendants.
Rob from Fareham, Hampshire
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Hi
Have been researching Penrhyn Isa family. I'm having trouble with my computer at the moment, keeps freezing, won't write much until I've got that sorted out.
Have a look at [130] in Ceiri's book, top right. There are errors, so don't take too much notice of the details for the moment.
John Roberts' children are by 1st wife, Mary Jones, died 1806. My interest is in the descendants of his daughter, Elizabeth Jones; your's in John Roberts jnr.. John snr remarried in 1809, moved to Hafod y Wern, his 2nd wife's home, and died 1812. His son John took over the tenancy of Penrhyn Isa in 1809. In John snr.'s will the children have 'surname' Jones, following the Welsh tradition, but John jnr. was involved in the English legal system because of a famous murder at Penrhyn Isa. He was referred to in that case as John Roberts, and he adopted surname Roberts.
John jnr is at Penrhyn Isa 1841 Census, age 60 (should be 60+); also William and Margaret Hughes, both 25+; I assume they're married. There's a William Hughes, 7; and 2 female servants.
Census 1851 you've got William Hughes, Head, 39 and wife Margaret, 36; and children, William, 17 and John, 9 (I assume John Roberts Hughes born 1841). Penrhyn Isa is in parish of Llanfihangel-y- Traethau. Early records for the family are to be found in that parish church registers, but later in Llanfrothen parish. Ll-y-T church is the other side of the Dwyryd estuary, and difficult to get to; whilst it's ony about 2 miles overland to Llanfrothen church.
Moving back to Charles Williams. You say:
Anyway, I've already taken the plunge & started adding the details to my (public) Rob Davies' Family Tree in Ancestry. So far, I got as far as the all the Census records for Margaret plus her death records. From her husband, Charles' 1911 Census record it indicates they were married in 1863 (although I can't find any evidence to back this up) & had 8 children -- only 7 are on the Census records. .........
I assume that you interpret the figure given for 'completed years of marriage' as 48. I think it's 40 with a little ink blot at the top of the '0'; compare with the '8' in the 'no. of children' column. 40 makes more sense when you look at birth date of first child, c. 1872. There's a marriage in UK BMD, Ffestiniog Q4 1870 11b 751, Charles Williams to Margaret Williams. In North Wales BMD, it only gives date by year, not quarter. It gives possible variations in 'surname' if the father's surname is different to that of his child. There is an explanation on the website. There are 2 different surnames for Charles, Williams and Charles; and 2 different for Margaret, Williams and Hughes. NW BMD also says whether it was a Church or civil marriage. If church they say which church and you can check the parish register. Unfortunately this was a civil marriage, probably in a 'chapel', nonconformist church.
Emyr
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Thanks Emyr & wow, what great detective work.
I've now found the 1861 & 1871 Census entries for the L-y-T William & Margaret HUGHES. In the 1861 Census is a son John ROBERTS! aged 19. Birthplace fro Margaret & John is shown as Penrhyn. In the 1871 Census it's just William & Margaret with no children -- & Margaret's birthplace as Penrhyn.
I'm therefore convinced that the birth certificate that I've got for John Roberts Hughes born on Penrhyn Isaf, L-y-T is NOT for John, the son of the William & Margaret HUGHES living at Llanfrothen (in the 1851 & 1861 Census records).
However based on the one valid birth certificate (for Margaret HUGHES) plus all the other inter-linking records, my confidence level, that the subject Williams HUGHES is my 2x great grand uncle, still remains at 99%.
Margaret WILLIAMS, nee HUGHES is shown in the 1911 Census as a Visitor of Edward Ch & Maggie (her married daughter) HUGHES at Caedu Farm, Blaenau Festiniog where it shows she's been married for 40 years -- which confirms your interpretation on how long her husband Charles had been married.
Note:- Can you read the birthplace of Maggie's husband?
I've also found in Ancestry, the public WILLIAMS/CRAMPTON Family Tree owned by 'dafyddwms' who appears to be the great grandson of Jane Ellen Charles WILLIAMS (daughter of Charles & 'birth certificate' Margaret) who married Thomas CRAMPTON -- born in India, married in London & died in Seattle, USA!
On this Family Tree there are some photos of headstones in Tan-Lan Cemetery, which I've copied to my public Rob Davies' Family Tree in Ancestry.
'dafyddwms' also shows on his Family Tree that Anne (shown as Annie in the E&W Marriage Index) Charles WILLIAMS married Robert Anwyl WILLIAMS on 2 Apr 1911 where Robert's parents are shown as David & Catherine WILLIAMS. Robert is shown in 1891 Census as living at Croesor Uchaf, Llanfrohen with his parents & brother Willam and in the 1911 Census at Croesor, Llanfrothen with with (now married) brother William.
In all honesty, this seem more likely than that shown on Page 204 in Ceri Griffith's book.
Once I've finished my research into all the children of Charles & Margaret (the sons are more challenging!), I will contact 'dafyddwms' via Ancestry as he has Charles' wife as Margaret WILLIAMS.
Best wishes, Rob
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Hi
CORRECTION to my Reply #14 :
According to gravestone inscription 6th line should read " (should be 55+) "; died 13/12/1842, aged 59 yrs.
Seen William & Margaret Hughes' grave at Llanfrothen, covered in 4ft high brambles; had to do some gardening to be able to see the inscription. It's in Welsh - says:
In memory of Margaret wife of William Hughs of Fron y Gelynnen, who died 24th June 1843 aged 41. Here also was buried William Hughes of Fron y Gelynnen who died 20th January 1854 aged 47.
NOTE
2 different spelling of Hughes.
Welsh for June is Mehefin. It's been abbreviated to Me. Could be mistaken for May.
Moving on to your latest post.
The 1841/51 William Hughes family at Penrhyn Isa, are at Hafod y Wern in 1861, including John. In 1871 just the parents at 7 Penlan, William now a Coal Merchant.
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Thanks Emyr for the Correction as it all makes sense.
On her death certificate Margaret HUGHES, nee JONES (I hope!) it shows she died on 24 June 1843 (the same day as her daughter Margaret was born) where the Cause of Death is Child followed by something like 'bed' when I was expecting it to be 'Birth'.
The photos of headstones in the Tan-Lan Cemetery, Llanfrothen that I've copied across from 'dafyddwms's Family Tree to my own Family Tree are:-
1) Charles WILLIAMS died 1914 & his wife Margaret nee (I hope) HUGHES died 1921
2) David Charles WILLIAMS died 1928 -- I've added a comment about his on 'dafyydwms's Tree as above it is a John WILLIAMS who died in 1914 & below it is David's wife Margaret nee (possibly) THOMAS whose date I cannot read
3) Ellis DAVIES died 1926. his wife Jane Ellen nee WILLIAMS (but previously CRAMPTON) died 1967 & Annie Regina CRAMPTON (from Jane Ellen's first marriage) died 2001
4) Robert Anwyl WILLIAMS died 1969 & his wife Annie Charles, nee WILLIAMS died 1955
I've also found a photo from Find A Grave of the headstone for Thomas CRAMPTON in Seattle, USA.
Regards, Rob
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Hi everyone,
This is just to advise that I'm now in email contact with Dafydd WILLIAMS, who advises re the Headstone for David Charles WILLIAMS that "Next time I'm at Tan Lan cemetery at Llanfrothen (I'm a monumental mason) I'll have a proper look for you."
Thanks to everyone who has helped in getting me to this point.
Regards, Rob
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Hi
Visited Tanlan cemetary yesterday. Don't know whether or not GFHS have a book of MIs.
Info from gravestones, all in Welsh:
Emrys Anwyl Williams, Anwylfan, Croesor 1912-1997
Enid Williams 12/09/2010 aged 92
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Gerallt, son, different grave, 1939-2011
........................................................
David Charles Williams, formerly of Parc, Croesor, 01/01/1921 - 18/07/1990 (will check, Ceiri gives 1991)
...................................................
Line in 'Ceiri' showing Annie and Robert as being sister/brother needs to be deleted. Ceiri doesn't follow Annie vch Charles' ancestors, but you have that info from Bryngelynen Census info etc.
.............................................................
Moving to Emrys/David Charles' parents:
Annie Charles Anwyl Williams, Tan y Bryn, Croesor 29/08/1955 aged 73
Robert Anwyl Williams 17/01/1969 aged 84
............................................................
Also at Tanlan, Annie' parents:
Charles Williams, Bryngelynen, Croesor 11/04/1914 aged 77
Margaret 22/01/1921 aged 77.
................................................................
Have more info, but need to check something out and find misplaced notes re. Ramoth Cemetary.
Emyr
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Thanks Emyr, that's fitted more pieces to the jigsaw.
As I can't find a matching entry in the E&W Death Index for David Charles Williams 01/01/1921 - 18/07/1990 (or 1991), I wonder if he died abroad thus explaining the comment "formerly of Parc, Croesor" -- although Ceiri's book shows place of death as Llanwrst
While I've found the 1951 Q2, Merioneth North entry in the E&W Marriage Index for David C Williams & Ann G Owen, I can't find any realistic entry for Ann Grace Owen in the E&W Birth Index.
Regards, Rob
(Still waiting for the copy of the marriage certificate for Charles Williams to see what it shows as the maiden surname & name of father of his bride Margaret as everything could come tumbling down if it's not 'my' Margaret Hughes!)
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Hi
DCW was from Croesor, but moved to Llanrwst area. One of his sons still farms in Llanfrothen parish. I'm told DCW died as a result of a car accident in Porthmadog/Pentrefelin area. If he died in hospital I think the death would have been registered in the registration district the hospital was in. I only have Free BMD which only goes up to 1984, and North Wales BMD, up to different dates in different districts, probably does not go as far as 1990. Will contact his son to check my info.
Re. Ceiri [204]:
David Williams, Croesor Uchaf/Catherine Parry, Rhyd - death info agrees with that on gravestone at Ramoth cemetery.
Have census info for Catherine back to 1841.
Also have info re the 'wrong' Robert Anwyl Williams shown as Annie vch Charles' husband, also his brother James and nephew Rowland (Rolant).
Off to Llanberis now to help marshal the Pedol Peris mountain race.
Emyr
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Hi Emyr, I hope the mountain race went well.
Thanks for the details on the parents of the Robert Anwyl Williams that did marry Ann(i)e Charles Williams but as they are 'only' the parents of the spouse of a blood relative, I don't maintain such records in my Family Tree,
You have to draw a line some where & I draw mine at blood relatives & just their spouses/partners.
Regards, Rob
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Eureka!!
I've now got a copy of the marriage certificate between Charles WILLIAMS & Margaret WILLIAMS which shows that they married on 21 Nov 1870 at Croesor Chapel, Llanfrothen.
The bride, Margaret WILLIAMS is shown as a Spinster, aged 27, living at Bryngelynen, Llanfrothen where her father is shown as William HUGHES (deceased), Farmer.
So I've now got a complete 'line of sight' as follows:-
* Daniel HUGHES, my 2xg gf, bpt 25 May 1801 Beddgelert son of Edward & Catherine HUGHES
* His brother, William HUGHES, bpt 31 May 1807, Beddgelert, son of Edward & Catherine HUGHES
* William's first marriage to Margaret JONES who he married on 22 Jan 1834 at Llanfihangel y traethau
* William & Margaret's third child, Margaret -- with mother as Margaret HUGHES, formerly JONES -- born on 24 Jun 1843 at Bryngelynen, Llanfrothen (the same day as her mother died)
* William's second marriage to Jane OWEN who he married at Parish Church, Llanfrothen on 26 Nov 1846 where William is shown as a Widower with his father as Edward HUGHES
* Margaret's marriage (as above) to Charles WILLIAMS
My sincere thanks to everyone (& in particular, once again to 'EmyrBorth') who helped me come to a very successful conclusion on this aspect of my HUGHES line.
Regards, Rob
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As an interesting aside (small world thing) my 2x great grandfather, Robert Williams Esq. and younger brother to David Williams Esq., of Castell Deudraeth fame lived out his final years at Penrhyn Isaf, dying there in 1869 :)
Congratulations on coming to a successful conclusion with your search :)
Rachel Williams
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Hi Rachel & thanks for the info,
It's a pity that I can't use your new info as I basically I restrict my Family Tree to my blood relatives,
All I can say, is that's it's just about as much a I can (scarcely) manage & to go any further on links by marriage would 'blow me out of the water'!
Best wishes on your research into your Family Tree
Rob Davies (alias the Welsh Dagger -- & that takes some explaining!)