RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: bibliotaphist on Thursday 28 August 14 22:13 BST (UK)
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I'd rather pluck out my eyeballs than watch Mrs Brown's Boys, but I thought this was gripping. However according to my wife I have an unhealthy interest in "miserable Irish history".
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Just one thing Wiki knew who killed him some time ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jocelyn_Lee_Hardy
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Nope -- bored after 10 minutes - so havent watched it through. I am getting more difficult to please these days.
Dont watch Mrs Browns boys either.... So didnt relate to Brendan O'Carroll.
sorry, will try and watch it ... soon maybe
xin
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That wasn't a family history programme. He knew what had happened to his grandfather, the whole programme focused on trying to ascertain why he was shot and by whom.
The single person focus was reminiscent of the Patrick Stewart programme in the previous series.
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I'm the same, I think 'MRs Brown' is terrible and I must admit I thought 'Ireland, here we go again', but this was fascinating.
I particularly liked that he refused to jump to conclusions and questioned each piece of information as it was presented.
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That wasn't a family history programme. He knew what had happened to his grandfather, the whole programme focused on trying to ascertain why he was shot and by whom.
The single person focus was reminiscent of the Patrick Stewart programme in the previous series.
Why is that not family history? Just because it didn't have a genealogical focus? I find a detailed history of an individual can be more interesting than one damn ancestor after another ;-)
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I have to say that I wasn't exactly keen on rooting for Julie Walters and her brand of Irish rebels and I certainly wasn't going to for the IRA
For a horrible moment at the end, I thought he was actually at Hardy's grave and going to spit on it or something!
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I very quickly became bored with this episode I'm afraid....but you can't please everyone.
Carol
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I have to say that I wasn't exactly keen on rooting for Julie Walters and her brand of Irish rebels and I certainly wasn't going to for the IRA
For a horrible moment at the end, I thought he was actually at Hardy's grave and going to spit on it or something!
Been my grandfather I would have done more than spit on it, a hammer comes to mind.
Fascinating programme but it was hardly WDYTYA as he already knew the gist of it. I prefer the ones that delve further back.
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Sorry, I know it's always a matter of personal opinion but I just could not get into it, I understand people liking the single person search/focus, or the journey back through several generations but never mind Mrs Brown, I thought I was watching Miss Marple. :-\
Not an episode for me I'm afraid.
Frank.
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I thought I was watching Miss Marple. :-\
Frank.
;D ;D ;D
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As a stand alone show i enjoyed it. As a WDYTYA, not so much.
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I agree with Vicki. Not a fan of Mrs. Brown's boys, but I found this very enjoyable; but I find most history things enjoyable. :) Anna
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The first time, I have turn off, half way through. :( :( :( :(
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My husband came in whilst I was watching the programme and asked "What programme is this". He couldn't believe it was WDYTYA. After watching it and seeing Brendan O'Carroll saying there was no justice etc. etc. my husband's response was where was the justice for the English soldiers killed by the IRA.
I'm afraid this programme was too political by far.
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Just one thing Wiki knew who killed him some time ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jocelyn_Lee_Hardy
This seems to have been added tonight (?), since the relevant footnote credits WDYTYA as the source.
EDIT: I meant that the line about Peter O'Carroll's murder had probably just been added, not the whole entry. And I now see that it has been expanded since last night.
I didn't expect to like this, but found it fascinating, albeit not as a 'proper' WDYTYA.
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There is another website about the Cairo Gang - the auxiliaries intelligence group - which has the whole history and more. Peter Carroll carried on an illicit trade in buying arms and army boots off British soldiers. The history of the Carroll's family involvement and Jocelyn Lee (or Howard) Hardy is well documented and there does not appear to have been any original research for the programme as regards the murder and the culprits. In fact an underlying theme was hinted at in the visuals but not made explicit in the verbal narrative: The fight between the British regime and Sinn Fein over money - the attempt by Sinn Fein to raise funds from home and abroad to set up an independent Ireland. I did not know any of this history so found it a very interesting programme but googling I found the entire history straight away including more details about the family and this has obviously been on the web for some time.
Just one thing Wiki knew who killed him some time ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jocelyn_Lee_Hardy
This seems to have been added tonight (?), since the relevant footnote credits WDYTYA as the source.
I didn't expect to like this, but found it fascinating, albeit not as a 'proper' WDYTYA.
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Well l have to say that l love "Mrs Browns Boys". So There LOL.
This was just a documentary about his Grandfather and for me, not a genealogy programme.
I was waiting for the usual tree to go up on the screen and it never came.
The only show for me that has been gripping when centred on one person was that featuring Kim Cattrall.
Very disappointed with this episode but l will keep watching as next week...................??
Its Sheridan Smith, swoonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!
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I nearly switched off when I heard what the focus was going to be - not Irish history again! - but it was absorbing, just as the Patrick Stewart episode was. Maybe the murderer was, in fact, already known, but I didn't know, and the process of discovery was fascinating. Better than some of the episodes that follow the well-used format of chunks of marginally-relevant social history to pad them out - I've got bored and given up a few times in the last couple of series.
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I didn't even get to half way before switching off. Definitely not WDYTYA as far as I am concerned. He said himself all he wanted to know was who killed his grandfather.
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I thought it was an interesting story, but I prefer my WDYTYAs to be about the lifespans of people (so finding out where they were born, how they grew up, their job, marriage and death etc) rather than about a single issue.
This reminded me of the Rick Stein episode when Rick traced the mental health records of his father - I kept wondering to what extent the average person on the street would have access to these records. Are the witness statements open to all?
It is, however, a bit disappointing if the answer to the question of who and why was he shot already known as per nospringchicken's post below.
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Although it was said that the IRA in the 1920s was different to the later IRA I think in the average persons mind the IRA means one thing - murdering British soldiers.
Because of this I think it was a gamble on Brendan's part to make this programme, did it come off?
I don't know although personally I don't think constantly dragging up this murky period in British history does any good to anyone.
No side was innocent so lets have a story of someone murdered by the IRA if the BBC feel the need to keep going back to this period of our history.
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Better than some of the episodes that follow the well-used format of chunks of marginally-relevant social history to pad them out - I've got bored and given up a few times in the last couple of series.
I agree totally.
Although it was said that the IRA in the 1920s was different to the later IRA I think in the average persons mind the IRA means one thing - murdering British soldiers.
Because of this I think it was a gamble on Brendan's part to make this programme, did it come off?
I don't know although personally I don't think constantly dragging up this murky period in British history does any good to anyone.
No side was innocent so lets have a story of someone murdered by the IRA if the BBC feel the need to keep going back to this period of our history.
It always surprises me how little most people in Britain seem to know about recent Irish history. Especially given how recent, how close, how bloody, and - as you say - how murky it all was. I might be biased because it's something I'm interested in...
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Not sure if it's appropriate to add it here, but a MOOC from Trinity college of this period in Irish History starts on Monday.
https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/irish-history
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The programme alleges Hardy was Peter O'Carroll's killer because of the comment made by the Dublin Castle mole to concentrate on Hardy? Is there any proof? Could it have been one of the other auxilleries? Did you see Brendan's jaw drop when he was told there were no Black & Tans in Dublin? Auxilleries were in Dublin not Black & Tans.
I thought it was an interesting programme. I used to think it was just the IRA who went round murdering people. These killings by the Auxilleries were before it all kicked off on Bloody Sunday so gave an insight into the secret war that was going on. I would have liked to have seen Brendan's family tree though to see the surnames in his family.
Blue
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I too think he was taking a 'chance' on letting this story be aired.
I know lots of people have moved on from these terrible times......
BUT lots havent, and talking of secret wars ----- in this day and age- :-X
Good luck to him and I hope he has achieved his aim - through the programme, whatever that may have been.
For myself, I would much have prefered to have learnt more about his ROOTS. but hey it has to be
something to make people watch.
xin
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His mother was a very interesting woman but not far back enough of course, there is an interesting story about the couple who ended up not going on the Titanic, one set of his Grandparents I think.
I'd imagine they stuck to the one story format because as usual with Irish families it's impossible to trace back more that a generation or two.
His mother http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maureen_O'Carroll
I didn't see the show so can't comment on it.
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Lots of Irish people like looking into this part of their history because these times helped to create their country. It's part of the national narrative in the Republic of Ireland. The old IRA were seen as freedom fighters and the secret war was seen as just because of the refusal by the British of some form of home rule or independence for the Irish when there was a majority wish for it. The conflict shouldn't have happened. Partition at an earlier date should have happened that would have satisfied most of the people, most nationalists and unionists.
Blue
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I wasn't keen on this episode. I thought it was too political and very specific to Brendan O'Carroll. Not particularly useful for those who want general information on tracing their family history.
Chris
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Didn't watch it.
I'm afraid I'm getting tired of Irish social/political history on the BBC version of WDYTYA . I would prefer to see more British social history, especially about the English working class and their struggles. A subject that has hardly been covered at all.
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I watched programme right through but nearly switched off.
It might well be just me after a busy day. I found myself asking questions - what information did we learn of his grandfather. Newspapers kept showing him as an invalid, what was his connection to the IRA (we did get some information from his obituary) why put on your trousers and socks and carry your boots downstairs, was he expecting a visit from IRA comrades, (I think it would have been possible to be out during curfew) At time I would have looked out the window to see who was knocking at the door. How much credence can we have in evidence given so much later?
Maybe I watch too many crime stories to be convinced. Is there someone who thinks this would stand up in a court of law?
Sandra
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These days the bullet could be traced, but back then nothing like that.
It was such a murky, dirty time that who ever did it did their best to lay the blame on the other side.
You don't know if Peter suspected someone either friend or foe would possibly come to the shop that night and he was half prepared to go out himself.
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Not sure if it's appropriate to add it here, but a MOOC from Trinity college of this period in Irish History starts on Monday.
https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/irish-history
Thanks; well spotted!
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According to The Genealogist, Brendan O'Carroll's father, Gerard, then aged 10, was also badly injured in the Peter O'Carroll shooting https://www.thegenealogist.co.uk/featuredarticles/2014/who-do-you-think-you-are/brendan-ocarroll-149/
http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/hardy/hardy.html
Scroll down to see this information. The information appears to have been gathered by David Grant who runs the Cairo Gang website. http://www.davidgrant.org/david-grant/david_grant.htm David Grant asked for info on Jocelyn Lee Hardy on Rootschat in 2010.
'1920 Oct 16. Mr Peter O’Carroll was shot dead by the Military at his home in Manor Street Dublin. Dave Nelligan in WS380 cites Collins as saying they should "Concentrate on Hardy" as the perpetrator. Though clearly Peter O'carroll was not a senile old man, as his son's WS314 says his father was in Irish Republican Brotherhood and bought arms from British soldiers ...
'At 1.50am Peter O’Carroll and his wife Annie were awoken by a heavy knock on the front door of their home at 92 Manor Street. Mr. O’Carroll got out of bed and put on for his trousers and stockings. A night-time military curfew was in place in Dublin and the family was accustomed to such late night intrusions. Two of the O’Carroll’s seven children were members of the IRA: Liam was Adjutant of the 1st Battalion of the Dublin Brigade, while Peter Jnr was a member of ‘A’ Company of the same Battalion. Mrs O'Carroll later said that this raid was unusual in that there were only 2 or 3 men outside, rather than the lorry load who turned up on other raids. Peter O'carroll went to open the door, there was a thud then silence. When Mrs O'Carroll went down to investigate, she found her husband close to death. He had been shot once in the side of the head. There was no evidence of a struggle. The murderers pinned a note to his chest purporting to be from the IRA and claiming the murder. Peter O’Carroll had in fact been murdered by members of the Auxiliary Division of the RIC ...
'WS755. The full significance of the presence and activity of that 'Murder Gang" was illustrated by the perpetration of the slaying of Mr. O'Carroll. of: Manor St. One of his sons, Liam, was Adjutant of our (1st) Battalion; another, Peter, was a member of "A" Coy of the same Battalion. Not finding the boys at home, the. "Murder Gang" struck at the father
'WS 314 and WS594. Of Liam O'Carroll says My father and his father were members of the Irish Republican Brotherhood. Through my father, I became associated with the Nationalist Movement. ... We had a fair number of Lee Enfields. We were buying them at that time from British Army men. As a matter of fact, my father bought quite a quantity. He had a shop in Manor Street. These fellows, when they wanted a few drinks, would take anything out of the Barracks. The usual thing was that they would bring a parcel around; and he would give them five shillings in any case; it might be a pair of old boots; it might be two .45's. On one occasion, there was delivered to him a lorry load of petrol in two-gallon tins.
'WS380 Dave Nelligan (DMP Special Branch and IRA spy in Dublin Castle) An old man named, Carroll kept a locksmith's shop in Stoneybatter, a working-class quarter of the city. He had two sons, active Volunteers. Carroll had a visit from a British Army officer who warned him that if his sons did not surrender at the Castle before a given date he would be shot. Carroll. was found shot dead in his shop later. On his body was pinned a card: "Spies beware, I.R.A.". Tobin brought me a slip of paper and on it was written in Collins' writing: "Concentrate on Hardy". That was the name of the killer. MacNamara and myself knew this man well. Re was an Orangeman, with an artificial leg, on the Castle garrison and was an Intelligence Officer in the Auxiliaries and a very hostile killer ...
http://www.cairogang.com/murdered-men/angliss.html
Similarly scroll down for information on the murder of John Lynch.
'1920 Sept 23. John Lynch, a legal clerk carrying a large sum of money to Collins, was murdered in his hotel bed in the Exchange Hotel in Dublin by the Cairo Gang. Apparently Lt. Angliss, under the influence of drink, divulged his participation in the execution to a girl who inadvertently passed this information to an IIS informant. The porter at the hotel said
'...soldiers came to the door of the hotel at two o'clock in the morning, asked to see the register, looked for a name and went to room number six. They left. Nobody heard any sound. And some half hour or so afterwards two policemen came and knocked at the hotel and said to the night clerk: "We are going to guard room number six, where a man lies dying. The military told us to come here." All the next day they stood guard at that room, and did not even admit the proprietor of the hotel into that room. They supposed the man was dying. He was shot in the throat. The military held the inquest.'
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Not sure if it's appropriate to add it here, but a MOOC from Trinity college of this period in Irish History starts on Monday.
https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/irish-history
Thanks; well spotted!
I've signed up for this.
Re: This episode of WDYTYA, - I found it very dull...
I was disappointed that it didn't have more about the ADRIC, - (My late Uncle was in 'Q' Division). And if Brendan O'Carroll wanted to know about it so badly, - why didn't he Google about it? (There's lots about it available).
Btw, - I've been trying to find the Armstrong and Miller spoof clip about WDYTYA, - it doesn't seem to want to play anymore:-(
Can anyone else on here resurrect it please??
Romilly.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c65QRaR16io
is this it?
xin
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c65QRaR16io
is this it?
xin
Yes!!
Thanks so much, - I couldn't get it to play:-(
Romilly :)
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I enjoyed this episode...and I liked the single person aspect for a change. But as has already been said you cant please everybody. (Plus I liked Brendan) :)
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Not for the first time, I seem to disgree with the majority on here. I thought this was a fascinating programme, although probably better suited to a stand alone documentary than an episode of WDYTYA.
Mrs Brown's Boys is a programme I would never watch, but Brendan O'Carroll came across as a very genuine and likeable person, as did his whole family. They were natural in front of the camera!
I do think most people have a very limited understanding of the whole Irish story, and this was an enlightening different perspective, as is the additional information posted here as a result of the programme.
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I own up, I'm one of the few who have posted watches Mrs Brown.
We did see a lot of what has been shown in the links and I have still not 100% sure. I plead tiredness and a certain amount of boredom and may have missed vital parts. Did Brendan mention that his father was hurt in the incident? Another report says Peter was found by a neighbour and taken for medical assistance.
Why I am struggling with this when everyone else seems to be convinced? Enough from me - away to make plum vodka.
Sandra
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I thought it was a really interesting programme and brought home the brutality and dirty tricks employed in war, the witness statements are available to all and the Irish governments far more accommodating in allowing access to historical documents than the British one. Some of the comments on here are illuminating on how the Irish are viewed, particularly those who fought against the British in the war of independence, and suggest maybe some people feel we should still own them. As an aside it was British soldiers who fought in that war, not only English ones. That the programme focused on one ancestor and around one specific incident doesn't change that it was an investigation of ancestory. I suppose you can't please everyone though.
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We thought it very interesting - part of our heritage.
I love the 'confessions' of the Mrs Brown viewers. ;) I can watch bits but then become very prudish!
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Most watched WDYTYA for 3 years according to this
http://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2014/08/brendan-ocarroll-most-watched-wdytya.html
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Haven't watched more than 5 minutes of each programme this series, producers seem to have lost sight of the fact of the initial concept. Too much focus on single individuals. I'm sure 'non-celebs' could have at least one relative who would be of interest to viewers. As for it being the 'most watched' ... that may have something to do with the popularity of Brendan, a great comic, nice man etc so not his fault the show fell short. As previously mentioned this was a great documentry, not WDYTYA. Come on producers get back to basics, encourage newcomers to get involved in genealogy, for some time now it's made to look so easy. A celeb says what they want to find out, a professional is hired to research, celeb has instant access to documents, story complete. Wonder why it's taken me best part of thirty years????
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Confessions of a Mrs. Brown viewer :-X
I liked this episode much better than the other two (to date)! I don't mind an episode that focuses on one person (Remember Carol Voderman and her father and the underground printing press during WW2?) I do have a great interest in Irish history & Irish family history and perhaps this all helped me to keep focused on Brendan's story.
However, it is a shame so much of it has been found to be online. nospringchicken has added quite a bit of information except one of her links on the Cairo gang says that Hardy died in the 20's while the expert on WDYTYA tells us he went on to be a banker and wrote two books ???
But I too liked the way Brendan kept going back to his source (the newspaper article) and questioning what it said. But a better understand of the whole situation of the O'Carroll family I think would have stood us in better stead.
I know this episode has been controversial due to the political nature of it - but I think sometimes we do need to be reminded of uncomfortable episodes in our history.
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It's a long time since I heard "Stairheedrammy". Keep the old expressions alive.
I do agree that in most conflicts use dirty tricks and brutality and that they see it as being part and parcel of their fight and boy are we seeing that today, except that a lot is not hidden. All dreadfully sad.
Plum vodka made in readiness for Christmas and New Year.
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I know this episode has been controversial due to the political nature of it - but I think sometimes we do need to be reminded of uncomfortable episodes in our history.
The point that quite a few people have made is that the producers of WDYTYA only seem interested in Irish history, when there is a lot of other history out there about England, Scotland and Wales, as well as overseas history - although we've had that with Colin Jackson and a newsreader whose name I can't remember at the moment.
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I know this episode has been controversial due to the political nature of it - but I think sometimes we do need to be reminded of uncomfortable episodes in our history.
The point that quite a few people have made is that the producers of WDYTYA only seem interested in Irish history, when there is a lot of other history out there about England, Scotland and Wales, as well as overseas history - although we've had that with Colin Jackson and a newsreader whose name I can't remember at the moment.
I tried to recall how many Irish history I.e. With a political slant - Dervla Kerwan; Julie Walters and this latest one comes to mind.
There have been several subjects with Jewish heritage and as you say overseas.
What about Jeremy Clarkson,Jane Horrocks, Robert Lindsay, Lesley Garrett for example. I'm not entirely sure but I think these were British and some working class or industrial areas.
Irish political history often seems to be controversial on these boards.
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Just found a list of subjects here (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Do_You_Think_You_Are%3F_(UK_TV_series))
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Many of us have a mystery in our family lines that we would like clearing up and I believe Brendon took this opportunity to find some answers to who shot is Grandfather and why...I don't blame him for that and he now has a clearer picture of the circumstances surrounding the events.
It just didn't hold my interest but I'm sure there are a lot of people who learnt something from the programme.
You can't please everyone.
Carol
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Treetotal - I think the point is that he could have found out any of that information just by looking on line. It wasn't a random murder that he was trying to solve, his family were well known in the IRA at the time. I just don't think it was WDYTYA material, a one off programme maybe or as the BBC like Irish history they could have done a series on that including Brendan O'Carroll.
Next week Sheridan Smith. The write up says it will be a happier show, if only because Sheridan Smith is such a happy personality ::)
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Many of us have a mystery in our family lines that we would like clearing up and I believe Brendon took this opportunity to find some answers to who shot is Grandfather and why...I don't blame him for that and he now has a clearer picture of the circumstances surrounding the events.
It just didn't hold my interest but I'm sure there are a lot of people who learnt something from the programme.
You can't please everyone.
Carol
He was on the Late Late Show a few hours after the filming for WDYTYA finished so spoke a little about it, I could be wrong, it was a while ago, but I think he kept saying 'they' as in it wasn't his idea to focus on that particular man, obviously he couldn't say much at the time.
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The Jane Horrocks episode is one I'd really like to watch again; can't find it online anywhere.
Most looking forward to the upcoming Billy Connolly and Reggie Yates episodes... tbh I've little idea who the other people are.
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Next week Sheridan Smith. The write up says it will be a happier show, if only because Sheridan Smith is such a happy personality ::)
..but not sure why they need to put details of the whole episode in the papers beforehand:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/sheridan-smith-left-distraught-broody-4111726
(Don't read unless you want to know who she finds)
Richard
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oooh didnt read it... but thought Sheridan Smith was a fella ??? oh dear.
Just checked her out and she is about to play Cilla !! uhm :-X
xin
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Confessions of a Mrs. Brown viewer :-X
However, it is a shame so much of it has been found to be online. nospringchicken has added quite a bit of information except one of her links on the Cairo gang says that Hardy died in the 20's while the expert on WDYTYA tells us he went on to be a banker and wrote two books ???
Hi, According to this link in the Cairo Gang website Jocelyn Lee Herbert died in 1958. http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/hardy/hardy.html Which link did you find which stated he died in 1920? In fact there was also another one legged man in the auxiliaries which also begs a question.
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Hi, According to this link in the Cairo Gang website Jocelyn Lee Herbert died in 1958. http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/hardy/hardy.html Which link did you find which stated he died in 1920? In fact there was also another one legged man in the auxiliaries which also begs a question.
[/quote]
sorry I know this is serious answer - but I for some reason got the giggles when reading it --- forgive me... I am going out now so will not interrupt again (maybe :) )
xin :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
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but not sure why they need to put details of the whole episode in the papers beforehand:
I don't read the articles as I like to watch a programme to find out the details, I had just read a comment about it probably being more cheerful next week, but I didn't read anything about which ancestors had been discovered.
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Xin - Sheridan Smith is ubiquitous on TV at the moment, every time there's a new play or series, she seems to be in it. ::)
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Confessions of a Mrs. Brown viewer :-X
However, it is a shame so much of it has been found to be online. nospringchicken has added quite a bit of information except one of her links on the Cairo gang says that Hardy died in the 20's while the expert on WDYTYA tells us he went on to be a banker and wrote two books ???
Hi, According to this link in the Cairo Gang website Jocelyn Lee Herbert died in 1958. http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/hardy/hardy.html Which link did you find which stated he died in 1920? In fact there was also another one legged man in the auxiliaries which also begs a question.
Hi springchick
It was this link - here http://www.cairogang.com/murdered-men/angliss.html
Almost at the end near the photo of the woman holding a pussycat. Or have I read this incorrectly? ???
CD
PS - Yes Heywood - agree with your statement.
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Hi, According to this link in the Cairo Gang website Jocelyn Lee Herbert died in 1958. http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/hardy/hardy.html Which link did you find which stated he died in 1920? In fact there was also another one legged man in the auxiliaries which also begs a question.
sorry I know this is serious answer - but I for some reason got the giggles when reading it --- forgive me... I am going out now so will not interrupt again (maybe :) )
xin :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
[/quote]
I know, I know ... But I didn't mention Tarzan and Peter Cook and Dudley Moore ... ;)
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Confessions of a Mrs. Brown viewer :-X
However, it is a shame so much of it has been found to be online. nospringchicken has added quite a bit of information except one of her links on the Cairo gang says that Hardy died in the 20's while the expert on WDYTYA tells us he went on to be a banker and wrote two books ???
Hi, According to this link in the Cairo Gang website Jocelyn Lee Herbert died in 1958. http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/hardy/hardy.html Which link did you find which stated he died in 1920? In fact there was also another one legged man in the auxiliaries which also begs a question.
Hi springchick
It was this link - here http://www.cairogang.com/murdered-men/angliss.html
Almost at the end near the photo of the woman holding a pussycat. Or have I read this incorrectly? ???
CD
PS - Yes Heywood - agree with your statement.
I think in the programme it was claimed Angliss and Lee Hardy were the same man? However this website has pretty conclusive evidence that they were different men. Angliss and Lee Hardy are different men. However I did think that it was possible that at times they swapped identities ie gave each other's names. Also in the world of double, triple agents etc things can get pretty murky and maybe even the auxiliaries were playing off each other? This last sentence, I admit, is speculation but I think it may reflect the atmosphere of the time and I don't think it's wild speculation like claiming, say, that the O'Carroll family and Hardy were related or some other wild statement!!! In the light of the evidence I've found on the web I find the Brendan Carroll programme very twisty and turny. Brendan O'Carroll did often seem to be making a statement and then end with a questioning 'I would hope?'. By the way on a separate note his mother was an Irish MP.
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Confessions of a Mrs. Brown viewer :-X
I liked this episode much better than the other two (to date)! I don't mind an episode that focuses on one person (Remember Carol Voderman and her father and the underground printing press during WW2?) I do have a great interest in Irish history & Irish family history and perhaps this all helped me to keep focused on Brendan's story.
However, it is a shame so much of it has been found to be online. nospringchicken has added quite a bit of information except one of her links on the Cairo gang says that Hardy died in the 20's while the expert on WDYTYA tells us he went on to be a banker and wrote two books ???
But I too liked the way Brendan kept going back to his source (the newspaper article) and questioning what it said. But a better understand of the whole situation of the O'Carroll family I think would have stood us in better stead.
I know this episode has been controversial due to the political nature of it - but I think sometimes we do need to be reminded of uncomfortable episodes in our history.
I think if l remember correctly, Carol Vordermans episode did not just focus on her Father, the first half was about a Grandfather who was a Butcher in Prestatyn, George Davies.
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Though the story was interesting, it hardly amounted to genealogy
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Though the story was interesting, it hardly amounted to genealogy
Why isn't it genealogy? It relates to episodes that affected his family, as with a lot of other families, and thus is genealogy. It's all very well some people banging on that it's political or social history rather than genealogy, but lets face it the events that went on affected ancestors in one way or another, and therefore are part and parcel of genealogy in relation to how they lived and what they lived through.