RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Bridgets Girl on Sunday 31 August 14 17:54 BST (UK)
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Hello! My relatives are conflicted as to the county of origin for my gr-grandmother, Bridget Donovan; it is either Waterford or Cork.
In Waterford, I found a lot of Bridget Donovans who were born in 1868 on the GRO, but since they do not mention the parents' names, I have no idea how to narrow them down. I may be able to locate some on Ancestry.com to rule them out, but I know I never found that many on there. Is there a way to find out the names of the parents without having to pay for approx. 12 birth record copies? :-(
I do not know for sure that my Bridget was born in Waterford. The sole reason I connected her with Waterford is because the only document I found with her parents' (Patrick Donovan & Mary Sullivan's) names on it was a Bridget born there in 1866. All other records from the U.S. indicate she was born in 1867-68 (except for an errant one that says 1861!).
The only other piece of info I have is that Bridget had a younger brother, Jimmy.
Any ideas for me? Thanks for your thoughts.
Tracey ???
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www.familysearch.org has many extracted Irish births 1864-c1881. This is a possibility for your Bridget but with such common names not guaranteed-
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPY9-XP1
Other possible siblings also listed but you need to be very careful not to trace the wrong Bridget or Donovan family.
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Here are a load of Bridget Donovans on church records ...at least you can eliminate the ones with the incorrect parents.!!
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?namefm=bridget&namel=donovan&location=&yyfrom=1860&yyto=1870&submit=Search
there are lots more James Donovans!!
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?namefm=james+&namel=donovan&location=&yyfrom=1860&yyto=1870&submit=Search
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Hello Tracey and Welcome !
Can I start by asking you whom Bridget married, when & where ?
Tara
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Just to note
Counties Cork & Waterford border each other !
So
It's very possible that Bridget was from one of the townlands that tip both counties; which could add up to her being born in Cork, yet her birth being registered in Waterford.
Tara
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Do you have an occupation for her father Patrick ?
Did Bridget emmigrate by herself do you know ?
Tara
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There is this one as a possible sibling for Bridget !
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPYQ-JJC
As Aghadowey said though we need to be sure that we are working with the correct family first !
Tara
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That Mary Donovan was baptised in Mallow RC Church.
No other siblings found for her on rootsireland free index though.
Tara
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Keep this one just as a possibility !
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRW5-BJD
Tara
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This girl could be from the Waterford scenario !
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N4MV-WPV
Have you researched her ?
Tara
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This is the one I'm leaning towards but yes, like you mentioned I want to be sure I'm not barking up the wrong tree:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPY9-XP1
To answer Tara, Bridget emigrated to America in 1890 (she was unmarried and by herself). She married a William A. Killinger around 1897 and settled in Reading, PA.
No one in the family knows what occupation Patrick had, unfortunately.
Lots to look at! :-)
Thank you all for being so willing to guide me!!
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Much further South West into Cork and there is this scenario
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/f4505e0036309
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/68c70e0146590
Tara
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Do you have her marriage cert AND her death cert ?
What record did you get her parent's names from ?
Tara
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Hi Tracey
I have just seen your tree online.
You have that her name was Bridget Marie Donovan.
Just a theory BUT it was common for woman's first and second names to be interchangeable at the time.
Is it possible that she was baptised Mary Bridget and hence could possible be the Mary Donovan in Buttevant that I sent you.
A long shot I know but you never know !
Tara
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Still very early days on this one but just keep this on file should the Buttevant theory work out !
On the GV there was a Patrick Donovan in Buttevant.
A VERY common Cork surname but it's worth filing away just in case !
http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/cork/buttevant.htm
Tara
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Given all the variables I am also worried about THIS marriage
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VFWB-7C1
Tara
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Sorry
I have just reread your original post and am confused ???
Are you saying that you have NOTHING in your American records to state what part of Ireland that she was from; and are just hoping that familysearch can 'guide you' ?
As other posters have said, these are common Irish surnames, so one hit doesn't mean we have the right family.
HUM
Just to explain re Irish records, our civil registration only began in 1864 but it was nearly the 1900's before it became everyday practice.
Bridget Marie, going by her American records was born after 1864 so in an ideal world her records would be on Familysearch BUT there are a LOT of records that are missing, mistranscribed or were unregistered.
Again, please get back to me with any FACTS and actual paperwork that you have on this lady as we will need a lot from America before we search this side 'of the pond'.
Sorry, I just want to be sure that we are setting you out on the right path.
Tara
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Tara, her marriage certificate is yet another head scratcher....we are sure it is hers since the husband's name and vitals match up w/my gr-grandfather's, but her name was listed as Bridget McDonald (??) and that is the certificate that gives a birth date of 1861, which is the ONLY place I've ever found that has it that early. I see it as 1866-1868 everywhere else. By the way, no one in the family has ever heard of "McDonald" and have no idea why it is listed that way unless it was a mistake.
Her obituary has no further helpful info on it and her death certificate lists her parents' names and only that they were all born in Ireland. Her birthday is listed as 29 Jun 1868 though and that date is nowhere to be found in any records I've seen in Ireland.
You can see why I get so frustrated and confused....LOL!
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P.S. I have no other paperwork that points us in any direction other than the family's recollections....most say Waterford; only one person thinks it was Cork. Everything on paper that I have just states "Ireland".
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Oh, I have one more small piece of info....we were told Bridget was born in or near Convent Hill??
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BINGO !
Convent Hill is the Clincher !
See why you need to tell me everything !
The Bridget Donovan that was born in Waterford was baptised at Church of The Holy Trinity Without which is in Waterford City at Ballybricken.
Convent Hill is in Ballybricken area of Waterford City !
I am attaching a map !
SO YIPPPPPPPPPPPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
We are working with the correct records now ;D ;D ;D
Tara
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OOOPSS
Forgot the map
https://www.google.ie/maps/dir/Ballybricken,+Waterford/Convent+Hill,+Waterford/@52.2585644,-7.1186682,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x4842c69df4d9c329:0x1efff6680d6a9bae!2m2!1d-7.1171866!2d52.259966!1m5!1m1!1s0x4842c69e251dd4cb:0xe9e7b070ec72fae6!2m2!1d-7.1157949!2d52.2571562
Tara
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WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! So I believe my initial gut feeling was right and she is probably the one listed with the October 19, 1866 birthdate! You don't know how long I've been trying to figure this out...this is incredible. You are wonderful!!!!!!
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Yes,
That record is defo the one.
BTW Please don't get hung up on exact dates to match from Ireland to America.
Most people had no clue what their exact date of birth was and it was just more or less guessed when they had to fill in paperwork in their adult years.
Not like the BIG occassions birthdays are these days, in a lots of families back then they were rarely celebrated.
Tara
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So,
You now have a lot of siblings to add to Bridget !
We have ~
Bridget 1866
William 1868
Thomas 1870
Joseph P 1882
Mary 1884
All the above were baptised in the same church with the same parents.
Familysearch shows a
Mary 1875
Anastastia 1872
John 1877
Same parents but I can't see a match for them at the same church as Bridget.
Tara
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Super
In the Same Church
In 1866
Patrick Donovan married Mary Sullivan
Name: Patrick Donovan
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Single
Marriage Date: 29 May 1866
Marriage Place: Roman Catholic Chapel of Trinity Without, Waterford, Ireland
Father: William Donovan
Spouse: Mary Sullivan
Tara
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SO
We are now another generation back as we now know that Patrick Donovan's father was called William !
Tara
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I didn't realize that about birthdays, but I can tell you that family lore says Bridget told everyone she was "42" regardless of what age she actually was. :-)
This woman had a colorful life....she got pregnant on board the ship to America, but we have no trace of what happened to that baby. She had a child 4 years after she arrived but never married the father. Then she married my gr-grandpa 5 years after that.
I have tears in my eyes thinking that I finally know something more about my heritage; thank you!!!! Do you have a suggestion where I should search next for Patrick & Mary? Would it be through the church records where Bridget was baptized? I have to order them online, right? Thanks again!!
Oh, I just saw you attached the siblings. I guess "Jimmy" was incorrect; maybe it was "Joseph". Oh, and also the marriage record. I had saved that one awhile back in case it was right. :-)
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The GV for Waterford (Trinity Without)
Shows a William Donovan at YELLOW ROAD
I'd be pretty sure that this is YOUR chap !
http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/waterford/trinitywithout.htm
Tara
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I'm sooo glad to be able to help ;D
Have you read the bits above that I posted ~
It's early days # I'm SURE I will find more !
Tara
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I'm resending you the google map just to show you how close CONVENT HILL and YELLOW ROAD are !
https://www.google.ie/maps/dir/Convent+Hill,+Waterford/Lower+Yellow+Rd,+Waterford/@52.2579055,-7.1207286,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x4842c69e251dd4cb:0xe9e7b070ec72fae6!2m2!1d-7.1157949!2d52.2571562!1m5!1m1!1s0x4842c426db266775:0xc47d91adfff5c65f!2m2!1d-7.1213601!2d52.2592856!3e2
Tara
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Looking back at the online marriage for Patrick & Mary ~ her father isn't mentioned ???
Might be just an error
Should you wish to order their ACTUAL marriage certificate ~ these are the details that you will need !
Name: Mary Sullivan
Date of Registration: 1866
Registration district: Waterford
Volume: 9
Page Number: 495
This can be done through our GRO in Roscommon, a research copy costs 4 euro.
It will give you their father's names and occupation, it will give you their own address' at time of marriage & it will give you their own occupations.
It will also give you who their witness' were !
NOTE you can also buy a transcription of the church record through the site rootsireland for about 4 euro.
It won't give as much info as a civil cert but some people outside Ireland like to get this one as it's instant access.
Tara
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Looking back at the parish on GV there are a LOT of Sullivans in the area !
http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/waterford/trinitywithout.htm
I HAVE noted that there is a Daniel Sullivan at Longcourse CONVENT HILL !
Tara
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Wow, this is GREAT! I think I will order the one that gives the most info. I went to this page to place my order but they only go back to 1920??:
http://www.hse.ie/lifeevents/marriage_cert.aspx
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There is a LOT on this forum page as to what and where to do it ;D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=599538.0
Tara
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Thank you, Tara!! Do you live near Waterford? I am cyber friends with some Donovans there that I met online and I would love to buy you all a drink some day when I make it to Ireland. :-)
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No I'm in County Laois
But Hey You can get the Donovan's two drinks so ;D
Waterford is beautiful so I DOOO hope you make it there one day !
Tara
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I'm REALLLLLY trying to prove that this William O'Donovan is Bridget's brother ?
Which would make the Mary Donovan listed Bridget's mother !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Waterford_No__3_Urban/Barrack_Street/672826/
I have found records of Donovans living at Convent Hill who were compositors and the William on the above census was a compositor.
HUM I'm probably clutching at straws but you never know, fingers crossed.
Tara
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Yes, his birthdate of 1871 sure does make him a candidate for her brother. By the way, I found I had actually ordered Bridget's birth certificate from the GRO a long time ago (on the hunch that it was the correct one which you helped me prove it is), so I'm glad I spent the money wisely! :-)
I have to have another look at these records you just pulled up. I know I had gone through them before, but now with the connection verified, it should hopefully make the job easier.
Yes, actually I've heard ALL of Ireland is just amazingly beautiful and I can hardly wait to get there once my boys are a tad older.
Being American, I am a mixture of several nationalities, but I feel the most connection to my Irish ancestry. The pull to go there is so strong!! If there is such a thing as "genetic memory" I have it for Ireland, no doubt about it.
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This is the record that I am working with to try and prove that they are Bridget's siblings.
It's re a John Donovan (we know Bridget had a brother called John AND he's the correct age)
~ with a brother Joseph Donovan (we know Bridget had a brother called Joseph)
~ the record has the address of Convent Hill (we know Bridget talked of Convent Hill)
~ occupation Compositor (so you can see why I'm also trying to connect this family to the census)
the important thing is that IF we can prove these are actually Bridget's family then this is an important document.
It would mean that John Donovan was involved (even in a small way) in the 1916 Rising !
Tara
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So, do you have the actual birth cert for Bridget then ?
What was the occupation given for her father ?
What was their address at the time ?
Tara
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John Donovan The Compositor in 1911 (to keep on file 'til proven)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Waterford_No__2_Urban/Exchange_Street__part_of_/670007/
Tara
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HOLD ONTO YOUR SOCKS
I found the family in 1901 !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Waterford_Urban_No__3/Barrack_Street/1764109/
SOOOOOOO all the other records are correct !
YIPPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Tara
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SORRY
I'm getting giddy excited now ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Tara
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Updated Google Map to show distance from Convent Hill to Barrack Street ;D
https://www.google.ie/maps/dir/Convent+Hill,+Waterford/Barrack+St,+Waterford/@52.2570531,-7.1191269,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x4842c69e251dd4cb:0xe9e7b070ec72fae6!2m2!1d-7.1157949!2d52.2571562!1m5!1m1!1s0x4842c420f2e6eb6b:0x4083ce316b9b0dfe!2m2!1d-7.1181673!2d52.2566055!3e2
Tara
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A 1902 Document relating to Patrick Donovan !
Tara
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Oh Tracey
I am SOOOOOO dissappointed :'(
You never said that you already had ALL this information !
http://www.irelandxo.com/node/26030
I shall let you get on with the search yourself !
Tara
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You are just awesome! I had to take the son for ice cream, so had a brief break but I'm back now. I have on the birth record that they were on Barrack Street and Patrick was a boot maker. Previous to that it says in the first column "Uimh 367", second column-Oct. 19, 1866, Barrack Street, Waterford for date of birth, third column Bridget, fourth-female, fifth-Patrick Donovan, Barrack Street, Waterford, sixth-Mary Donovan, formerly Sullivan, seventh-Boot Maker, eighth-Patrick Donovan, Father, Barrack Street, Waterford, ninth-Twenty-sixth Oct, 1866 and tenth-James ??, Registrar.
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Tara, I had some of it, yes, but no proof or verification. You have verified that what I did was CORRECT and for that I am so excited and thankful. You have also given me many other things to look into as well. I did not know if what I had done was right.
You have been the biggest help of anyone I have ever come across!!
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It would have been nice (and saved us, especially Tara, so much work) if you'd mentioned ALL the information you had in your ORIGINAL post :-\
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I haven't found anything else Tracey but enjoy putting together all of your information safe in the knowledge that it is correct.
Good Luck
Tara
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Aghadowey, I did actually mention most of what I knew in my original post but besides that, I'm not understanding anyone's disappointment here. I made it clear that Tara has helped IMMENSELY with verifying what I looked up; I could not piece it together to my satisfaction. I did not want to be barking up the wrong tree and Tara has confirmed what few things I did find AND helped with so much more! She has found other links and for that I am so excited. I'm sorry if anyone felt time was wasted but it most certainly proves that I (as a novice) found the right records, which I had not been sure of AT ALL. Tara has been the best source of knowledge I have ever found! She has made my day today.
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Hi Tracey
You are new to this site so please don't get upset.
It's just that no, in your original post you just referred to a familysearch reference to Bridget.
In later posts you referred to a Convent Hill.
At no point did you say that you already had a birth cert, that you were already told on another forum where Bridget was born, that you were given her parent's marriage details, that you were given the family on the 1901 & 1911 Census, that you were given siblings details.
While you may have very good reason for wanting to be sure of this information, we really need to know that you already HAVE leads but are just trying to prove them.
HA I just get upset because I get all carried away and think I'm finding ALL this new stuff for someone and then it's deflating to find that a person already had it.
I hope you understand where myself and Aghadowey are coming from :)
Tara
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I didn't intentionally withhold any info, honest! (I only thought to pull out that birth certificate a bit ago - forgot I had it since I thought it was the WRONG Bridget). Also, the Convent Hill reference I found as I looked through a bunch of family tree notes I'd filed away right before I told you about it. I was trying to locate any further info that I could relay to you and came across it.
I guess because I really didn't have the advantage of seeing for myself the actual steps taken to come to those conclusions that were on the other board, I didn't see it as being "real" or verified. There are just so many Marys, Patricks and Bridgets, etc. With you, I had the distinct advantage of writing back and forth (we appear to be online at the same time) and I was able to follow along with you and you made sense! :-) Also, honestly you did give me lots of new info and you have every right to be excited - let me tell you I am beyond THRILLED at what you've found. I was walking on air! You showed me the connections whereas I felt the other board didn't and I am forever grateful.
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Oh I know you didn't Tracey !
It IS however why I ask so many questions before helping people.
I know it's the internet but I SWEAR every time I start asking the questions I can HEAR people through the computer saying 'Well, why is she asking that?'
It's just that Ireland is a small country and most of us whom help on this site know it fairly well. Sometimes all it can take is ONE key word to prove or disprove things.
For example Convent Hill, that's all it took for us to link everything together.
THAT's why we ask people 'PLEASE tell us EVERYTHING you KNOW', whether it be verified or unverified' and that way we can use our local knowledge to kickstart the search over here.
I can only speak for myself when I say that I get a kick when I can help someone find their Irish roots . . . I DOOOO love this country.
ANYWAY, YOU and anyone else reading this HAVE BEEN WARNED
DETAILS DETAILS DETAILS
TEE HEE ;D ;D ;D
Tara
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Thank you so much for your graciousness and all your help, Tara! I love your country too even though I've never been there. I hope to see the language and all the unique customs of the Irish culture live on and be preserved for many generations.
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Isn't it so nice though to have Bridget firmly rooted in Waterford City ?!
We know that she must have had somewhat of a nice upbringing as her Dad had a super trade.
We know that her brothers were shoemakers & compositors in the City, so again that's nice to know.
We know that her parent's originated in Kilkenny (great hurlers so google all about that) ~ so now you are going into the next door county.
We know that Bridget's Grandad was called William Donovan. We know that William must have been from Kilkenny and moved on to Waterford sometime in the mid 1800's. We know where William lived in Waterford.
We know that one of Bridget's brother's was involved in the 1916 Rising (SUPER Cool) You HAVE to read up on this time in Irish history.
I think MOST importantly is the possibility that she still have family walking the streets of Waterford, the same streets that SHE walked on yet left over 120 years ago :o
Tara
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Just to follow up on her brother Joseph Donovan !
Here he is in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Waterford/Waterford_No__2_Urban/High_Street__part_of_/670031/
In 1905 he married a Catherine Sprice
Name: Joseph Donovan
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1906
Registration district: Waterford
Volume: 4
Page Number: 372
This is Catherine Sprice in 1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Waterford/Waterford_Urban_No__2/High_Street/1761579/
Tara
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Yes, what a huge relief to know finally where she came from!!
Thank you for putting all that together in such a great summation, as it does get confusing keeping everyone straight...LOL.
Oh, I'd fall off my chair if I could actually make contact with living relatives!! Especially if they had any pictures of ancestors to share!
I've read somewhat on the Easter Rising, but I confess I have much to learn about it! Wasn't it about freedom from England's rule? (We are all for that in the U.S., ha, ha!!). Interesting they were compositors, because I worked in the printing industry for 11 years. :-)
See, I would never have thought to connect the dots as you have with everyone - for example Catherine Sprice being "Katie" on the census as a child. I do hope Joseph or one of the others had male children too so I can more easily trace their descendents. :-)
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Look at this from 1893 !
Tara
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. . .
and this one from 1870
Sooo
We can safely assume that William Donovan, Bridget's Grandfather was a Boot & Shoe Maker too !
Tara
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Hmm, so maybe his shop was on Chapel Street and his home on Yellow Rd....how did you find this? Sweet!!
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findmypast.ie are doing a special at the mo for €1
http://www.findmypast.ie/content/ie_radio
Tara
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I'll have to read that tomorrow! By the way, I noticed you're researching McDonald - have you ever heard of the surname Dennis being a part of that clan? (Not sure if I'm using proper terminology here but when I was at a Celtic Fest I was told that the Dennis family was a part of another clan in Scotland and I think they may have said McDonald).
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I was born McDonnell but when doing my family tree I discovered that my Grandad went by that spelling BUT that all his siblings were McDonald.
HIS father was a McDonald, but his Grandfather flip flopped between one spelling and the other and I never got any further back than that.
It makes me sad that MY actual blood line hasn't gotten that far back so I spend LOTS of time and energy with those that I CAN verify.
I only ever got back to mid 1800's in Dublin, Ireland with the surname so I can't say I know re the whole Dennis situation, Sorry !
Tara
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If it were too easy, we'd all get bored, right? ;-)
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Too True :)
It's the mystery and the challenge that I like.
Tara
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Tracey
Are you aware that there is a Jose Santiago with a tree with totally different information on it to yours re Bridget ???
Tara
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Tracey
How have you gotten on re Bridget's 2 children before marriage to William ?
Tara
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Tracey
Where have the stories or facts come from re Jimmy Donovan ?
Tara
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Hi Tara!
Where is this Jose Santiago's tree so I can have a look?
There are definitely many other Bridget Donovans floating around in that time period in Ireland and many more that emigrated here. That is why I have always been so confused.
Another of Bridget's gr-granddaughters, Karen, had been told while growing up that Bridget had a younger brother, Jimmy by her mother (Bridget's granddaughter).
I found a record in the 1910 census from here in the U.S. that indicated Bridget was the "mother of 7, only 6 living". I'm guessing that first baby from when she was pregnant on the ship (a family story that has been handed down in more than one branch of the family) may have died and that is why there is no mention of it. Only a guess. We know she was in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in 1894 when Karen's grandfather Edwin Cummings, Jr. was born. We have no record of her having married Edwin Cummings, Sr. although in the 1930 census it says she was "first married at 23".
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On another note, does the term "10 County Cork" mean anything to you? One of Bridget's granddaughters just told me she remembers her Dad saying he wanted to visit her birthplace there. I'm thinking Cork was a port and she left from there but wasn't from there.
I have two other family members vouching for Waterford however. One has a note that her mother had written claiming Waterford as Bridget's birthplace; the other just said Waterford was her birthplace and didn't tell me how she knows that. I am writing her again to ask how she knows this. I have never found records of a Bridget Donovan born in the time period I need in Cork and this is why I've always thought Waterford IS correct.
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Got an email in regards to ordering the marriage certificate you found:
Hi Tracey
I cannot issue the marriage cert you are looking for (Sullivan & Donovan 29.05.1866 Waterford entry 18)
You may apply in writing to our head office to see if they can hand write it for you
There contact details are as follows:
General Reg. Office
Government Office
Convent Rd Roscommon
Telephone No: 0906632900
We will refund you
:-(
I have to get a letter together for them and keep trying.
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P.S. To the best of my knowledge and memory, I have searched everywhere on this side of the pond for info, including death certificate, censuses, obituaries, naturalization papers (there are none), etc. One person said something about a "probate" but I'm not sure what that is yet.
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I only met these other family members in the past year (long story but I didn't grow up knowing my biological father's family) so that is why I don't have as much info on Bridget. I sent a mass e-mail to these family members yesterday regarding this stuff but so far only heard back from the ones mentioned above.