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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: cp on Monday 01 September 14 19:22 BST (UK)
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Can anyone help to find my family who moved to New Zealand please?
My Grandfather was Edwin Albert Phillips 1874 - 1954
His brother was John (Jack) Phillips born 1877
They were the children of John & Margaret Phillips of Treffeca, Talgarth, Brecon
Family legend says that Jack moved to New Zealand to farm. He was supposed to have gone to the north of the South Island. He was still in Wales for the 1891 census and then he disappears.
Thanks
Claire
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Hi Claire and welcome
Can you give us any more information on John,did he have a middle name?
There are a lot of John Phillips in NZ deaths and a middle name would help
Cheers Janette
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I wonder if this is him
birth
Births Mar 1877
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
PHILLIPS John Morris Hay 11b 139
The district Hay spans the boundaries of the counties of Breconshire, Herefordshire, Powys and Radnorshire
death in NZ
1958/33356 Phillips John Morris 81Y
Cheers Janette
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Burial in Archer Street cemetery Masterton
Record Number: 007419
Surname: PHILLIPS
First Names: JOHN MORRIS
Age: 81
Date of Death: 5/06/1958
Date of Burial: 7/06/1958
Cemetery: Archer Street, Q E Park
Area: Ex Servicemen
Row: 6
Plot: JMP
Cheers Janette
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Hi Janette
Thank you for the welcome and the help.
Unfortunately I don't think John had a middle name. I found him on the 1881 and 1891 census return and his siblings middle names were listed so I would have thought if he had one it would have been shown. So sadly I do not think this is him. Shame by coincidence I have friends in Masterton.
I have found a record of a John Phillips b 1875 on a ship to Wellington on 25 Oct 1899. Even though the year of birth is out by 2 years very possible I would think.
He was born in Talgarth, Brecon
Thanks again for looking
Claire
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Working from the 1881 census,
Name: John Phillips
Age (Original): 45
Gender: Male
Birth Year: 1836
Birthplace: Breconshire Llangose
Relationship to Head of Household: Head
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Labourer Gen
Address: 6 College Terrace
Event Place: Talgarth, Brecknockshire, Wales
Record Type: Household
Affiliate Publication Number: RG11
Piece/Folio: 5468 / 75
Page Number: 12
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
John Phillips Head M 45 Breconshire Llangose
Margaret Phillips Wife F 37 Talgarth, Brecknockshire, Wales
Joan Phillips Daughter F 13 Talgarth, Brecknockshire, Wales
Edwin Phillips Son M 6 Talgarth, Brecknockshire, Wales
John Phillips Son M 4 Talgarth, Brecknockshire, Wales
GS Film number: 1342315
Births Jun 1867
Phillips Joan Hay 11b 157
Births Jun 1874
Phillips Edwin Albert Hay 11b 162
There are 2 John's
Births Mar 1876
Phillips John Jones Hay 11b 141
Births Mar 1877
PHILLIPS John Morris Hay 11b 139
I wouldn't discount John Morris just yet,the age is correct too
Cheers Janette
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Is this him still in Wales in 1901?
RG13; Piece: 5186; Folio: 17; Page: 26
Llandrindod
Thomas Matthews 39 Butcher Llandrindod
Elizabeth Matthews 41 Gladestry
Gertrude Matthews 6 Llandrindod
John Phillips 24 servant Butcher Talgarth
David Davies 18 servant Butcher Disserth
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Hi Groom
Thanks for taking the time to look for me. It certainly looks possible but of course I cannot prove it. I have attached it to my tree with a note saying I am not sure.
Interesting that he was a butcher as his father was an agricultural labourer so they would have no doubt had contacts in that world.
Thanks again
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Hi Janette
Thanks again for your info. I am trying to decide whether to risk my money on ordering the birth cert for John Morris Phillips :-\
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Does look a good possible. Could you apply for it and say that you only want it if his parents are John and Margaret?
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I thought you could do that but it would appear not anymore, unless I have misunderstood the GRO website.
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Well well .... it would appear that John Morris Phillips is indeed my missing great uncle!
I have just received the birth cert for him and the address (Trevecca, Talgarth) and birth date 26th Dec 1876 matches the census returns and the fathers name, fathers occupation and the mothers name and maiden name all match my grandfathers birth certificate ...as beyond doubt as you can hope for I think :-)
Interesting that they did not use his middle name at all on the census returns and they did for the other children.
That then leads me to Masterton in New Zealand ( a place I have visited twice without knowing and where a close friend lives!) to follow up the lead on his grave. Thanks for that info Janette, could I ask where it came from.
Does anyone have any hints on what my next move should be to track down how he got from Wales to New Zealand? I am on Ancestry.co.uk but can't seem to find any emmigration records that fit.
I would love to see if I could track down any cousins in New Zealand :-)
Thanks again everyone
Claire
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That's brilliant, I'm pleased it is the correct one- is the Morris after a relation?
I've looked on FindMyPast and can't see an obvious emigration either, I wonder if anyone in New Zealand can find his entry into the country? It might be worth seeing if you can find the one I gave you in 1901 in the 1911 census, if he isn't there it could well be the one you want and would narrow down when he went.
As his death records give him as an ex service man, he may well have served with the NZ army in WW1, it might be worth seeing if these records can be checked. There are quite a few shown on FindMyPast but I think it needs a worldwide subs to see them.
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Yes I have now looked for the family that the John you found in 1901 was with and he is no longer there. I can not find a further listing for John Phillips on any 1911 census returns. If this is correct he left Wales after 1901 and before 1911 census.
I only have a months subscription to Findmypast which sadly is not for worldwide searches.
I have worldwide access to Ancestry but can't find him there either.
Thanks again for your help.
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Quick up date....
I have found the Discharge Documents for a John Morris Phillips which adds to my confusion. His Regtl no is shown as 69268 3rd Batl of Highland Light Infantary but it also showed his Regtl no as 127031 but this was crossed out.
I have found a picture of the grave in New Zealand and that shows the same reg and the Regtl number as 127031
The discharge papers also show he was a butcher (which matches the 1901 census ) and that his Next of Kin was his wife Lily of Hove. I can find one marriage of a John Phillips to a Lily Griffiths in 1912 in Llanelly?
The papers say he joined the Army April 1916 aged 37 which is 3 years out with his birth cert.
Well I am off to bed now.
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The papers say he joined the Army April 1916 aged 37 which is 3 years out with his birth cert.
He may have given a false age so that he appeared younger when he enlisted.
So that means we are looking for a emigration after 1918.
Added: After 14.6.1919 as his address then was 24, Kensington Road, Reading, Berkshire.
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Hi Claire,
I have emailed the cemetery office asking if they can give more information.
This is the link to the cemetery database
http://www.mstn.govt.nz/services/cemetery/
Cheers Janette
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You could purchase a "printout" of his death registration,bearing in mind it is only as good as the informant,
"A scanned image of the original record, however if a record has been updated or corrected it will be typed, as a correction cannot be made to a scanned image.
All records 1998 onwards will be typed as there is no scanned image.
Non-emailed printouts are produced on plain white paper.
"Printout - post 1874 $20.40 A copy of the information from the registration, and usually used for research purposes. It is either handwritten or typed
It is better to have the emailed version as the paper version has very small writing
https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search/
Cheers Janette
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There was another John Morris Phillips born about the same time in Ruabon, Wrexham, Denbighshire, he appears in all the cenuses and married a Letitia in 1902. However, as the regimental number on the discharge papers you found is the same as the one on his grave, I think we can be sure that you have the correct one ie in one born in Talgarth.
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He first appears on the ER's in 1928
John Morris Phillips 1928 Wairarapa Wellington; Manawatu-Wanganui; Hawke's Bay
John Morris Phillips 1938 Masterton Wellington
John Morris Phillips 1946 Wairarapa Wellington; Manawatu-Wanganui; Hawke's Bay
John Morris Phillips 1949 Wairarapa Wellington; Manawatu-Wanganui; Hawke's Bay
John Morris Phillips 1954 Wairarapa Wellington; Manawatu-Wanganui; Hawke's Bay
John Morris Phillips 1957 Wairarapa Wellington; Manawatu-Wanganui; Hawke's Bay
Is this his wife?
Lily Phillips 1928 Wairarapa Wellington; Manawatu-Wanganui; Hawke's Bay
Lily Phillips 1938 Masterton Wellington
Lily Phillips 1949 Wairarapa Wellington; Manawatu-Wanganui; Hawke's Bay
Lily Phillips 1954 Wairarapa Wellington; Manawatu-Wanganui; Hawke's Bay
Lily Phillips 1957 Wairarapa Wellington; Manawatu-Wanganui; Hawke's Bay
Cheers Janette
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Hi
I am blown away by the information I have woken up to today, thank you so much to you both for helping me with this.
Groom, the only thing that worries me about the papers is the fact that the number on the grave is the number that has been crossed out however following the information from Janette it would appear that because of the ER showing a Lily in the correct area I think I am happier about it. I was not sure if once you are given a Reg number in the army you keep it for life?
Janette, what can I say? You are so kind to do so much research on my behalf, it all looks amazing! thank you.
I am just about to go out for a few hours but can't wait to get back and start looking into this.
Can you tell me where you got the information - Added: After 14.6.1919 as his address then was 24, Kensington Road, Reading, Berkshire.
Does the ER give the names of anyone else in the house?
I will try and order that cert, I haven't looked yet but do think I can order it through a link that you have given me from here in the UK? I guess I can pay with a credit card and they will charge me the exchange rate. Not sure how this works in New Zealand.
Thanks again, must dash,chat soon
Claire
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Can you tell me where you got the information - Added: After 14.6.1919 as his address then was 24, Kensington Road, Reading, Berkshire.
That is on his discharge papers.
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Hi Claire
Such an amazing amount found for you in so short a time, but you have had 2 of the best helping you.
I'm joining in with regard to the 2 regimental numbers. My grandfather first attested in 1899 for the Boer War, but when he signed up again in August 1914 he was issued a different number, therefore both appear on the records found.
Perhaps the same happened with JM Philips.
Just a thought.
Susan
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As in this example
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Looking at his service records, he does seem to have been transferred around quite a bit - eg 5th Battalion Norfolk Regiment, Queens RLI, Labour Corp before finally being discharged with malformed feet. There are several numbers that have been crossed out.
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Hi Susan and thanks for your advice. On the back of it I have now confirmed that he had two numbers Labour Corps 127031 and Highland Light Infantery 69268 I have found his WW1 Medal Index card. I have attached it, are those two medals the standard ones all soldiers get?
You are right Janette & Groom have been amazing!
Thanks again Janette, I have now ordered the death print out and hopefully it will have a son or daughter of John's as the informant.
I had not been able to read the address you found on the discharge papers so thank you so much for that.
So we also know from the discharge papers that he and Lily had a child after 1912 if that is the correct marriage I have found but def before 1919 as it says he had a child on them. I think it is also fair to assume that the child went with them to New Zealand provided the child survived.
I also emailed the cemetery but thank you for doing so too.
This is all so exciting.
Claire
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It is just so frustrating that we can't find an emigration or immigration record for John or Lily.
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Frustrating indeed. Also that I cannot find him on the 1911 census return anywhere!
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If that is his marriage in 1912, the chances are that he is somewhere in Wales in 1911.
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Just a thought.......................... :D I have them sometimes ;D
Have you looked at the shipping to Australia,a lot seemed to go that way
Cheers Janette
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It looks like he may have gone to the South Island first as they both seem to appear in Central Otago as well as the Wairarapa in 1928
Lily Phillips 1928 Central Otago Otago
John Morris Phillips 1928 Central Otago Otago
Cheers Janette
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CP - I've sent you a PM about the 1911 as I am sure that is the correct marriage. I think Lily Griffiths was a widow when she married John. Her husband died in Sept quarter 1911. Too many coincidences for it not to be the right one.
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What an interesting story and somehow it sounds familiar so I'm wondering if I've done some research on this for someone else in the past.
As a matter of interest, CP, I live in Talgarth; and Morris is a not uncommon name round here. There are a number of Morris graves in the churchyard. Trefecca (aka Trevecca) is a small village about two miles from Talgarth and the College Terrace is still there.
Interesting the marriage in Llanelly - which should not be confused with Llanelli as they are different places. A lot of people from this area went to work in the Llanelly/Blaenavon area, which was heavily industrialised with coal mines as well as ironworks. Here is a photo of Llanelly as it is today.
Regards
GS
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Yes Janette, that makes sense as I was told he went to the South Island first but I was given Nelson as an area of interest.
I think I am now satisfied that Lily Griffiths was indeed the widow of James Griffiths when she married John. She had two children Annie L Griffiths and John Horace Griffiths in 1911
Hi GS and thanks for the info and photo. I did visit Talgarth a few years ago and saw College Terrace, it is all a lovely area and I hope to return someday. I have been chasing this story for years so it might have been me that you have had contact with in the past.
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By the way Janette, yes I have been looking at Australia with no luck :(
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This looks like Lily and James's marriage
Marriages Jun 1899
Brace Lily Llanelly 11a 1553
Griffiths James Llanelly
Then following Lily's marriage to John, birth of their child
Births Dec 1913
Phillips John mother's mn Brace Llanelly 11a 2495
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That birth has to be the one :)
I guess therefore that John Jnr went to New Zealand with his parents as he must have been 13 or younger when they went there.
This gives me hope that I have relatives in New Zealand.
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Oh dear, just found this. Hopefully it isn't him
JOHN PHILLIPS
Birth year 1913
Age 0
Death Dec quarter 1913 District LLANELLY
County Carmarthenshire
Volume 11A Page 1178
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Hi all,
We have found him for sure! Thank you all soooooo much.
I have to dash to work now so will give a proper update later but you would not believe it but the District Archavist in the area John Morris Phillips lived is his step great Grandson and he has emailed me!
(Janette, your initial lead proved to be invalable)
Sorry I am rushing will be back on later today
A very happy Claire
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That is absolutely brilliant, Claire, I'm so pleased for you. Doesn't it just prove what a small world it is? Even smaller if it turns out that it was you asking GS about him in Talgarth. ;D
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Frustrating indeed. Also that I cannot find him on the 1911 census return anywhere!
Found him, he is in Swansea, same occupation as 1901 - try born 1879. Let me know if you still can't find him - leave out the Morris when searching.
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What good news (doing a happy dance ;D )
Cheers Janette
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I am reminded that someone from NZ was in our local Tourist Information Centre a few months ago asking for details of places in the area as their ancestor had been born in Talgarth, and had been a butcher... We'll never know whether it was the same family though but quite a coincidence.
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Sorry I have been away so long, I hate it when real life takes over ;)
I tried to share the photo that I have been sent of John Morris Phillips but it is too big and I do not know how to make it small (it is a tif photo if anyone knows what I can do).
He did emigrate to New Zealand in 1921. The reason he was hard to find was because he was listed on the passenger list as Jno Phillips and his wife was listed as Mrs Phillips
Do I now need to try and move this thread into completed?
I have another mystery as I can't find any record of his fathers birth but do I need to start a new thread for that?
Thanks again all.
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Great it was the right one - have you now found new relatives in New Zealand?
I think you might have to ask a Mod to mark this as completed as I dont think you can do that now ( you were able to at one time) Just click on the report to mod and then ask them to do it.
If you start a new thread, make sure that you put in a link back to this one so that people dont repeat what we have already found.
I take it that we are looking for his father as John Phillips born 1836 Llangose Breconshire, as given by Janette from the 1881 census? Did the information you received from NZ confirm this? The problem is that if he was born then, you will have to search parish records and baptisms as it was before birth registrations were introduced in 1837.
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Thanks for that groom
Yes I do have relatives in New Zealand and I am waiting to be put in touch with some cousins. My Dad was thrilled to see a picture of his uncle that he had heard about but never met.
Yes it is John Phillips born between 1836 and 1840 in Llangorse. His son's death cert confirmed his name but not his age. When I start the new thread I will list all I know but I do know that his dob varies depending upon what I am looking at!
Thanks again
Claire
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Could this be him?
County Brecknockshire
Place Llanigon
Church Parish Church
RegisterNumber
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 08 May 1836
Forename John
Sex -
FatherForename Richard
MotherForename Mary
FatherSurname PHILLIPS
MotherSurname
Abode
FatherOccupation
Notes
FileNumber 8869
Cheers Janette
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This looks like the family in 1871
Name: John Phillips
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1871
Gender: Male
Age: 35
Relationship to Head of Household: Self
Birthplace: Llangorse, Brecknockshire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Hay
Sub-District: Talgarth
Parish: Talgarth
County: Brecknockshire
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
John Phillips Self M 35 Llangorse, Brecknockshire
Margaret Phillips Wife F 27 Talgarth, Brecknockshire
Joan Phillips Daughter F 3 Talgarth, Brecknockshire
David Phillips Son M 6 Talgarth, Brecknockshire
Cheers Janette
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Another two possible births are:
John Phillips baptised 26th June 1839, Talgarth parents Jane and John
John Phillips baptised 23rd Feb 1840 Hay, parents John and Lydia
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This looks like his father's family in 1851 Llangorse
HO107; Piece: 2489; Folio: 718; Page: 18
William Phillips 34 Farmer 79 acres Llangorse, Breconshire
Amelia Phillips 31 Llanelly, Breconshire
John Phillips 11 Llangorse, Breconshire,
William Phillips 8 Llangorse, Breconshire,
Lydia Phillips 4 Llangorse, Breconshire,
Elizabeth Jones 14 niece house servant Talgarth
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Thank you so much Janette you are so kind.
I have started a new thread for John http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=699851.msg5429997#msg5429997
I think you have found the correct family
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William Phillips married Amelia Pugh 27 Jul 1839 Talgarth, Brecknockshire, Wales
If that is John Phillips in 1851, it isn't the birth Janette found.
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Another marriage to consider
County Brecknockshire
Place Llanspyddid
Church Parish Church
RegisterNumber
MarriageDate 27 Sep 1828
GroomForename Richard
GroomSurname PHILLIPS
GroomAge
GroomParish
GroomCondition
GroomOccupation
GroomAbode
BrideForename Mary
BrideSurname JONES
FileNumber 34964
Cheers Janette
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I cant find that thread, CP
Same family in 1841 HO107; Piece: 1370; Book: 17; Folio: 10; Page: 13
Lower and Upper Llangorse
Talgarth
William Phillips 25
Amelia Phillips 25
John Phillips 2
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Thanks Groom
Sorry ladies I am new to this forum so not too sure how it works, I thought pasting the link would work but here is the title of the thread to search under, thanks again
John Phillips of Llangorse birth record?
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Sorry, quick update, I have just seen that the post is awaiting approval from the moderater
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In the meantime, I think that he could well be the John Phillips with parents William and Amelia as that age and place of birth fit, although I can't find a birth or baptism for him.
Your post may be waiting approval as it has a link added. That does sometimes happen as the system thinks it could be a spammer and so it has to have a mod approve it manually. It is nothing you've done wrong, just a glitch in the system. It's happened to me a couple of times.
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Thanks Groom, that makes sense regarding the link, it is live now :-)
and yes I am convinced they are his parents