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Family History Documents and Artefacts => FH Documents and Artefacts => Topic started by: Maggie. on Wednesday 10 September 14 21:23 BST (UK)
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I'm involved in a very low key archaeological dig and today we unearthed these pieces of pottery, now placed together for the photographs. What do the letters CHDDC or perhaps CHDOC above the door refer to? The ruins we are digging are an enigma at the moment, but on-going. There may have been a house there but this plate is the first significant evidence of domesticity we have found as yet, although there is evidence of farming and possibly industry having taken place there.
My first thought was that it could be Delft pottery, but I'm no expert.
Maggie :)
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Diameter of the plate ?? (You can get a pretty good idea by drawing round the rim of the bit you have, and then completing the circle !)
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Any markings on the back?
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Blowing your second picture up even more, it looks more like CABOC .... (or possibly CABDC)
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It say's "school" over the door
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Doh .... you beat me to it ! Of course it does .... and that explains the children leaving in a hurry through the door !
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It say's "school" over the door
You're right YT. So unless made for export may not be Dutch.
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Looking at the top picture, I thought the word read "SCHOOL", though I do agree the letters look more like initials when viewed under magnification.
However, if they were significant initials, standing for a club or something similar, I would expect them to be larger and clearer.
ADDED - I see I'm not alone! ;D
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The plate is approx. 6.5" in diameter.
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I think it's a cheap, early 20th century child's plate.
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Of course it says SCHOOL - now why didn't we see that!!!
No markings on the back Jan. Probably on the half we haven't got. :(
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I think I'd agree with Alpine, especially considering where its been found .... perhaps it belonged to a witches child Maggie ?? ;)
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The woman looks oddly dressed doesn't she? No pointy hat though.
Lydart - don't let where I live sway your judgement on this. ;)
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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It's an intriguing dig as there are all sorts of different ages of activity. We have found what may have been an outbuilding with a hole in the flagstone floor, it appears to be a drain hole. We have lifted the flagstone with the hole and underneath there were seashells so perhaps some sort of food preparation was going on there. Fairly near here we found this plate. Whatever has been going on though it is no high status establishment.
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I think it's a nursery rhyme plate - and that it shows Doctor Foster off to Gloucester in a shower of rain, hence the umbrella!
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......
He stepped in a puddle
Right up to his middle
And never went there again.
I think if it was depicting this event it would show Dr Foster falling into the puddle for more visual impact. And I still think the teacher/woman is dressed in a very strange way.
Interesting bit on the origins of the rhyme 'Dr Foster' here:-
http://www.rhymes.org.uk/doctor_foster.htm
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When were umbrellas in the style depicted here, invented? That would give a clue to the date as it obviously couldn't pre- date that.
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Looks like a transfer print & tin glazed pottery to me, not hand-drawn, so I agree with alpine too.
Interesting about umbrella design - I have always meant to research that as my Trowsdales were umbrella makers :D. My mother's cousin still has the chest of drawers in which they were kept in the shop. Also 1 ancestor was a witness in court in 1843 as he had been offered a broken [turned out to be stolen] umbrella for sale which he mended.
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Surprised that no one has mentioned the border pattern.
Malky
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If it helps here is a picture of the broken edge. Could it be English Deftware?
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According to Wiki English Delftware was produced between 1550 and the late 18th century. I think if you could date the umbrella style it might help.
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The unbrella seems steeply pitched. The "U" shaped Paragon steel rib, which apparently revolutionised umbrellas, was invented in 1852. Prior to that they were whalebone. Does the shape of this one indicate it is steel ribbed therefore greater flexibility?
The brolly looks very large therefore I think the figure holding it is a child.
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The pictures of English Delftware on Google are all on flat plates, not with embossed rims like the find. Also almost all have Delftware plates have a painted blue border, in fact they are all decorated with blue, not black, and they don't feature figures like that on your plate fragment, so I really don't think your plate is delftware.
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Just by way of not a lot I have tried to reconstruct what the umbrella carrier may have looked like.
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I'm no pottery expert, but to quote Wikipedia on English Delftware ..........
.......its peculiarly English quality has been commented upon: . . . there is a relaxed tone and a sprightliness which is preserved throughout the history of English delftware; the overriding mood is provincial and naïve rather than urbane and sophisticated."
This seems to fit the image on the plate quite well, so I wondered if it was a possibility.
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Very clever Maggie!!
I think the plate was made from a stock of cheaper embossed 'bases' by a manufacturer who then applied the transfers & glaze [just like in the pottery dens of today you can decorate & glaze pre-made bases]. I agree with alpine - again ;D - that it's not English delftware. I always thought that delftware pictures were handpainted.... I am prepared as ever to be wrong though ;)
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Thanks josey ;D
I have wasted yet another morning on that when there were Other Things I ought to have been doing.
I shall rule out the English Delftware then. The embossed edging certainly looks remarkably like the embossed edged cheap plain white supermarket kitchen plates I bought a few years ago!!
Incidentally the image is blue not black.
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It could be Staffordshire pearlware. I can't find one exactly like it, but this is very similar in style, especially the moulded border:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01a00/
Scroll down to the larger picture. Sorry, it's an ebay sale that has ended, so I don't know how long the image will remain.
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That does look remarkably similar, even the style of clothing.
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I found a few similar plates, but not as similar as that one. I agree it looks like pearlware - mid nineteenth century, i think.
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I like Gallium's find a lot. That plate does have a similar feel to mine. No clue as to date though?
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Another similar one:
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/133489576430015365/
Carol
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I don't know about a date (other than 19thC probably), but maybe if you emailed a picture to the Potteries Museum, they might be able to help?
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That's an interesting and similar plate Carol - I like the dog :)
I'm really grateful for the input from everybody - thank-you all for opening up different areas to consider.
We have also sent the pics to a pottery expert we know but it's by snail mail as he has no internet so it could be a while before he gets back to us. His opinion could be interesting. A date for the plate could definitely help establishing what was going on in this place we are investigating, but at least it tends to indicate some sort of domestic activity in addition to the industrial and farming usage we have already found evidence for.
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but at least it tends to indicate some sort of domestic activity in addition to the industrial and farming usage we have already found evidence for.
Well, actually, not necessarily domestic activity on the site. It was, and still is, common to spread muck onto fields from the muck heaps near to the farmhouse, stable and cow shed etc. Domestic rubbish also ended up on the muck heap, so domestic rubbish would then end up on the fields some distance from the farmhouse itself.
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Mind you, judging from the fairly remote area I used to live in, any broken crockery and domestic refuse wasn't put on the dung-heap but thrown into the river. Made clearing the banks as a riparian owner fascinating!
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Well, actually, not necessarily domestic activity on the site. It was, and still is, common to spread muck onto fields from the muck heaps near to the farmhouse, stable and cow shed etc. Domestic rubbish also ended up on the muck heap, so domestic rubbish would then end up on the fields some distance from the farmhouse itself.
Yes - good point. Although it's position doesn't necessarily lend itself to that scenario.
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Just to add a bit of background - the plate was in isolation at a depth of approx. 4" in soil surrounded by buried hawthorn tree roots, with a top layer of nettles and grass.
It was right next to what we have discovered to be a doorway, which led into a small room with a stone flagged floor and a hole in one flag that appears to have been a drain hole. The flag with the hole was lifted and there were seashells underneath the hole. The building(s), of which only the footings remain, has remained undisturbed in living memory.
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Nettles and hawthorns can be indicators of past human activity at a site.
Have you looked on www.oldmaps.co.uk for free access to the old OS maps to see if anything is marked at your site? also look on www.visionofbritain.org.uk for maps earlier than the OS. Also try the County Record Office for tithe maps etc.
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Yes, I know the significance of nettles and hawthorns. Hawthorns have been used since early medieval times in bank and ditches with dry stone walling around here. The ordnance maps show an unnamed building on the site of differing shapes in different years. It is in a rural position with other named farms nearby. The '41, 51, etc census records give names of families at various farms. It difficult to tie down who may have been living at our ruin.
I must recheck the visionofbritain site to be double-sure but I think a map of 1843 is the earliest indication that something was there.
ADDED - a full map regression has been done.
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Indeed, nettles = disturbed ground and elder bushes often grow on the sites of outside toilets. Which makes me wonder about the clump of elders which grow at the bottom of my garden!
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And in an ancient ditch at the edge of ours too GS. ::)
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Nettles & elders like high phosphate levels and are often a sign of human or domestic animal "activity". The effect can last centuries in some cases. I'm no expert ut I would hazard a guess of 1880 plus or minus 20 or so years.
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Thanks, robbo for this information. Those dates make sense with other stuff we have found although all digging has been abandoned now until the Spring.
I had forgotten all about this question I asked regarding the bit of plate.
Maggie