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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Moray (Elginshire) => Topic started by: Agnes14 on Friday 12 September 14 13:07 BST (UK)
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John Cumming, a gamekeeper at Allan, Fearn, Ross & Cromarty was the father of Ann Smith's illegitimate son Thomas Smith (b:1858). There is an entry in the RCE which shows that Ann took John to court. I can't be sure of who Ann was, she is shown as a domestic servant in Knockando but I am unable to read the name of the place. Can anyone help, I have attached a section of the entry in the RCE and hope someone might have a better idea about the place name.
Ann's descendants settled in Birnie, Dallas & Forres amongst other places. We've only just started researching this family so any help anyone can give for either John Cumming or Ann Smith, would be most appreciated.
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a546/AMW122/RCEAnnSmithcrop_zps4c67e4dc.jpg)
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Hi Agnes
This looks a possible entry for Thomas with his mother and her family in 1861:
David Smith 26 Farmer Of 12 Acres
Ann Smith 73 mother, farmer's widow b. Cromdale, Morayshire
Ann Smith 28 sister
Jane Finday 14 niece
Grace Grant 4 niece
Thomas Cumming 3 nephew b. Knockando, Morayshire
Ann Smith 1 daughter
Grace Grant 77 aunt, Pauper Formerly Domestic Serv b. Cromdale, Morayshire
Address: Sheaniecanap, Knockando, Morayshire
Monica :)
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I think after this census in 1861, Thomas' mother Ann may have gone on to have further children with a Charles McDonald. Can't see a marriage though but the following children all show born in Knockando:
Jane 1862 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQZD-2FZ
Isabella 1864 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQZD-KVL
Then 1871 you have:
Ann Smith 60 farmer's mother
Ann Smith 38 daughter, domestic servant
Grace Grant 14 grandchild
Thomas Cumming 13 grandchild farm servant
Ann Smith 11 grandchild
Charles Smith 8 grandchild
Jessie Donald 8 grandchild ...Janet/Jessie/Jane/Jean are all first name variants
Isabella Donald 6 grandchild
Address: ??anip, Knockando
Monica
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Looking back at the entry you have on the RCE that you have added, I think the place name for Ann given there is likely home, as we have in the censuses for 1861 & 1871...except it is showing as two words rather than one as we see elsewhere.
Likely many spelling variations as there is always with these places.
This is a great guide to name places for areas. Now that it is up and running it is pay to view for the actual entries. However, the listing of places is available to view here www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/place-names/Knockando?class=parish&county=Morayshire
A little here: A small hillock on the South Side of where Allt Arder is formed, on the property of Sir G. MacPherson Grant Bart [Baronet] of Ballindalloch. SHIANNACANNUP.
They show there a Shiannacannup. From same link, map ref here www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/record/nls/1615/ordnance-survey-six-inch-mile-elgin-sheet-xxii/os6inch
Monica
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You're a gem Monical. I am transcribing for scotlandsplaces and I have been looking but obviously not hard enough. I found an Ann Smith in the McDonald household, Knockando but I was doubtful about that one because she came from Inverness. I think there might be a little bit more info in the court papers but that needs to wait until we can get time to get to Edinburgh. Your census entry looks promising and there's a lot there I can check out to confirm the family. I don't know how long it would have taken me to find SHIANNACANNUP, if every LOL. Great what a fresh pair of eyes can see, it's very much appreciated.
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Struggled trying to see anything for father John Cumming :-\ Maybe the papers in Edinburgh, when you get to see them, will let you add more.
What happened with Thomas Cumming/Smith? Sometimes future marriage or death certs add more regarding parents where someone's birth is illegitimate.
Monica :)
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Thomas married Elsie McRae in 1883 and settled in Birnie. He was a gamekeeper then went to work in Glenlossie distillery. I don't know for sure yet whether it was him or his son Thomas who was killed in an accident in the distillery when he was crushed between two barrels. We only started on the Smiths last weekend and it's not the easiest name to trace :-( John Cumming could be any age, and working as a gamekeeper one minute he could be something else the next. I've seen a few possibles but nothing that offers any proof. Allan House (it's up for sale, so we can get a sneaky peak at it) I would suspect that David Munro who was owner at that time would have been his employer, but don't know if any of the estate paper would have survived. We still a lot of homework to do to get as much out of a visit to Edinburgh as we can. I'll need to try the census for Thos & Elsie to try to get more of the family.
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I don't know if you have looked at the free Libindx site, which gives details about folk from the Moray area, but there is a reference there to Thomas Smith, married to Mary A. Hardie, who was killed at Glenlossie Distillery on 7th May 1946, aged 60. It refers to a fatal accident inquiry.
If this is the same family, it will be the son, not the father.
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That helps a lot in sorting out father and son, GR2 :)
Thomas b. 1858 seems to flip between Smith and Cumming, not usual for people born illegitimately really.
I think this is 1901 from what has been mentioned so far:
Thomas Smith 43 Distillery Maltman b. Knockando
Elspeth Smith 39 b. Rothes, Elginshire
David Smith 16 Chemists Apprentice b. Urquhart, Elginshire
Edward Smith 11 b. Rothes, Elginshire
Donald Smith 9 b. Rothes, Elginshire
Elsie Ann Smith 7 b. Birnie, Elginshire
Maggie Smith 5 b. Birnie, Elginshire
William Smith 3 b. Birnie, Elginshire
Marion Smith 3 b. Birnie, Elginshire
Address: Glenlossie Cottages (2), Birnie, Moray
Monica
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::) I think this is a rubbish transcription for 1891 (likely also under Smith?):
Thomas Surita 32 Labourer Stillman b. Knockando
Elsie Surita 28 b. Rothes, Elginshire
John Surita 8 b. Kinloss, Elginshire
David Surita 7 b. Urquhart, Elginshire
Thomas Surita 5 b. Urquhart, Elginshire...who you and GR2 have been discussing?
Edward Surita 2 b. Rothes, Elginshire
Address: 56 High St, Rothes
Monica
Added: For completeness on Thomas Smith/Cumming Snr, I think in 1881 he shows as a shepherd, under Smith, at Folds, Urquhart.
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Hello All, If you go to freecen you can follow the Smith Family, from 1841. through to 1871. Also looks like the parents of Ann Smith, were David Smith, Farmer, married to Ann Grant, 9 Feb 1826. Knockando, Moray.
You will also see the various spellings of their address on those census most likely the same place.
Regards
Jonn.
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Ahhh...that makes sense of the names we have seen so far. Thanks Jonn :)
Monica
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That looks like him Monica, I know there was a Donald Smith witness at their son Tom's wedding in 1911 - Tom born 1887 married Mary Ann Hardie in 1911.
Thanks GR2, I have looked at a few Moray FH sites but never came across that one.
Thanks too, Jonn, I have been looking at the 1881 census at David Smith - I found it a bit strange on Thos. (b1858) birth reg. he was registered by a David Smith but the relationship looks at bit like 'occupier', I don't think it's employer but it could be.
(http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a546/AMW122/BCThos1858crop_zpseb683af8.jpg)
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'occupier' is a term that comes up occassionally. I have mostly found it used in the North East areas. Simply means a resident at the same property, in a simple form.
Monica
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So it maybe just a co-incidence with names, without being related?
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It can be, just going by the term. However, with what you have, I would imagine that David Smith in this case is Thomas' Uncle who reported his birth and mother Ann's brother, from what we have for the 1861 census.
Monica
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Hi, I am new to RootsChat and have just found your earlier posts.......my great grandmother was Jane McDonald, a daughter of Ann Smith and half brother to Thomas Smith/Cumming. I know two of Thomas' great grandchildren, they stay in Elgin.
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My daughter's line comes from Thomas, son of Ann Smith so your present family may be the same as my daughter's :)
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Birnie Quine, if you are a great-granddaughter of Jane McDonald, you and I are distantly related. John Sim was my 3rd cousin 3 times removed.
I tried to send you a personal message but you need to have made at least 3 posts before you can use the PM system, so it wouldn't deliver it to you.
Were your best man and bridesmaid DJB and PG? If so, I know who you are and you know who I am!
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Did Ann Smith marry? and do you know what family she had other than Thomas?
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Jane McDonald, daughter of Charles McDonald and Ann Smith, was born at Shian Knap, Knockando, on 23 November 1862. She is probably the eight-year-old Jessie Donald in the 1871 census at Shian Knap. I have not looked for a marriage of Charles McDonald and Ann Smith, but I don't think they married because Ann is down as unmarried in the 1871 census at Shian Knap and (I think) at Claypots in Birnie in 1881.
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PS Shian na Cannup was up Glen Arder from Corglass.
See http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=57.4629&lon=-3.4162&layers=5
Shian seems to be from Gaelic 'sėthean', meaning 'fairy hill' (pronounced 'shee-an'); or at least that is what the 19th century map-makers thought. Matheson's Place Names of Elginshire suggests it is from 'sean' meaning 'old', but that is usually pronounced more like a single syllable, something like 'shyan', and it crops up as 'shen' in anglicised names like 'Shenval'.
Matheson also suggests that 'Cannup' is from Gaelic 'cnap', meaning a small hill, in which case the curious-looking place name might be tautological. 'cnap' is usually anglicised as 'Knap' but often pronounced as if the 'n' were an 'r', and with an aspiration before the 'p' (as if you were pronouncing it crahp, and actually saying the 'h').
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Thanks for all that information Forforian, I didn't have that although research is just starting out. Smith is hardly the best name to untangle. I've had a look on scotlandspeople and couldn't find a record of their marriage. There is an Ann Smith/Charles McDonald marriage in Strathdon in 1882 but this Ann's parents don't match with the same family. It makes me wonder now if there are two different families. Ann of Strathdon is shown as a farmer's widow (Stewart) age 34, da. of William Smith/Mary Calder, our Ann's parents were David S/Ann Grant so we'll need to sort that out.
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Thanks for all that information Forforian, I didn't have that although research is just starting out. Smith is hardly the best name to untangle. I've had a look on scotlandspeople and couldn't find a record of their marriage. There is an Ann Smith/Charles McDonald marriage in Strathdon in 1882 but this Ann's parents don't match with the same family. It makes me wonder now if there are two different families. Ann of Strathdon is shown as a farmer's widow (Stewart) age 34, da. of William Smith/Mary Calder, our Ann's parents were David S/Ann Grant so we'll need to sort that out.
Has to be a different Ann Smith. 'Our' one was already 38 in 1871, so would have been 49 in 1882. As I said, I don't think 'our' one ever married, and she certainly didn't marry Charles McDonald as far as I know.
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Yes Forfarian, we do know each other, connected through my Duncan line. Agnes 14, Ann Smith never married though she had three children. Thomas, as you know, to John Cumming and Jane and Isabella to Charles McDonald. Jane married John Sim, my line, and Isabella married John Grant. Jane had 6 of a family and Isabella had 9 - I think - so quite a lot of family out there! Thomas Smith's grandson, Edward (Ted) 1916 - 1994, who also worked at Glenlossie like his father and grandfather, was the last of the Smiths to live in Birnie. He and his wife were good friends of my parents.