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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Somerset => Topic started by: jackski on Thursday 25 September 14 12:20 BST (UK)
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Can anybody help? I'm stuck trying to trace Irene Julianna Kelly, born 1829 in Bath. I've found her in 1841 (no middle name listed)living with her mother and siblings in Walcot in Bath. She then completely vanishes, neither marrying nor dying, but not appearing on any other census.
Then in 1901, in Walcot, in Bath, appears Irene Goulston, a widow of the right age.
She too has neither married anybody or died that I can find, and doesn't appear on any other censuses. I've tried everything I can think of to link these two as the same person but to no avail.
Any suggestions welcome!!!
Thanks
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The 1841 is interesting - raises all sorts of questions!
1841
Cornwell buildings, Walcot
Anna Kelly 40 leather seller N
Cecilia 15 Y
Leonora 15 Y
William 14 Y
Irene 12 Y
Euphemia 10 Y
Othelia 7
Lyndetesa? 5 Y
Delphina 1 Y
Treelore Flowers 45 shoebinder Y. (Or may be Holmes?)
N.K Kelly 5 days Y
Relationships arent given in 1841, but one does wonder who the parents of the new baby are!!
Not finding any of them in later censuses.Iwonder of the whole family went off to Scotland or Ireland, then Irene comes back as a visitor over the 1901 census night.
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The father is still alive. He's not there in 1841 but turns up in 1851 along with a couple of the daughters, Ophelia (transcribed as Othela) and Maria.
The family were Catholics. Not sure if anything might be found in any records relating to catholics specifically.
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Not finding any of them in later censuses. I wonder of the whole family went off to Scotland or Ireland, then Irene comes back as a visitor over the 1901 census night.
In 1851 Cecilia and Leonora are Governesses at a 'Catholic School' in St Pancras
HO 107 / 1496 / 648 / 27
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Delphinia Ursula was bn Jul/Aug/Sep 1839 and died Apr/May/Jun 1843
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Here is that 1851. Dad is now widowed.
Cornwell Buildings, Walcot
William Kelly 50 pawnbroker bn Monmouth
Maria 20 dtr bn Bath
Othela 17 dtr bn Bath
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Thanks but I've already found this. Its Irene herself that is missing and its very very annoying!! I have a feeling that this Goulston person is her, but just can't prove it.
I've wondered if she lives abroad. I'm wondering if the worldwide ancestry records might show something, but I don't have access to that. The local library might have it I suppose.
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Yes, I know you had found it - you were the one that brought it to our attention!
But in order to try and find Irene, as she doesnt immediately show in intervening censuses, we need to see what happened to her family generally to try and see what may have happened to her. SO that is what we were doing, if you know more about the rest of them then do tell us, to save us going over ground you have covered.
We have now found that Dad (who for some reason wasn't at home in 1841) was born in Monmouth and was a pawnbroker. We have found that Irene's mum died between 1841 and 1851, so Irene between 12 and 22. Actually I am making some assumptions here - as I said before 1841 doesnt show relationships so we dont know for sure that Anna was Irenes mum. Nor that the William (dad to Maria and Othela) was her Dad too.
We have also found that a couple of daughters in London by 1851.
So that has scuppered the theory that the whole family went abroad somewhere. A small piece of progress.
It will be a case of keeping on finding out little bits and pieces until something provides the lead we are looking for to trace Irene.
eg if she is a witness at a siblings marriage (either as Kelly or under a married name), or all sorts of other possibilties.
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Irene's baptism doesn't even show up on the IGI either which makes it worse than ever! I think this is one of the hardest problems I've ever had to deal with in research of this sort. Thanks for your help so far though - I do appreciate it.
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Relationships aren't given in 1841, but one does wonder who the parents of the new baby are!!
She was Melania Teresa (or Melanica) and her mother's maiden name was registered as Green (BathBMD), as with the others. (William Kelley married Hannah Maria Green in 1820.) She died on the 14th Aug 1841, aged 10 weeks and was buried at the Catholic Chapel (see FreeREG).
David
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It would be worth getting a copy of Dads Will, to see if Irene is mentioned and under what surname
Probate index entry -
The Will of William Kelly late of 18 Cornwall buildings in the city of Bath pawnbroker and general dealer who died 7 Dec 1879 at 18 Cornwall buildings was proved at Bristol by James Quin of 14 South PArade Bath, manager of the NAtional Provincial Bank Bath Branch and Winifred Kelly of 18 Cornwall Buildings widow the relict (during widowhood) the surviving exectutors.
Actually this could be Irenes brother - I havent yet checked the death index for age at death.
But the same Cornwall Buildings address!
Edited to add - It IS the Dad. Death Oct/Nov/Dec 1879, Bath ref 5c 424, William Kelly aged 82
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Ooooh thanks!!! You're already getting further with this than I've been able to!!!
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It's very baffling indeed all of it.
There are Goulston names locally (Somerset) so I wonder if she met one and he whisked her off to get married abroad.
What about the people she is visiting in 1901, they might hold some links to the family if we can trace them back.
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The Dad must have remarried then!
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Got to dash, but in 1871 Dad William plus second wife Winifred plus Euphemia are at RG10 2488 40 10 (indexed Kilby on Ancestry)
Will type out another time unless someone can do it before I get back.
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It looks like the mother also died in 1841 and was buried at the Catholic Chapel on 26 June as Ann Maria Kelly, died 21 Jun 1841, aged 40.
There is a transcription of some of the Bath Catholic registers published by the Catholic Register Society but the baptisms only go up to 1824. I have a copy of the index only (just name and page number) but it appears from that to have the baptisms of Cecilia Eleanora Ann, Leanora Elizabeth and possibly William at about the right dates to match this family but not Irene or the later children.
David
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Thanks! This is brilliant. How do I search the Bath BMD? Are they online?
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The Dad must have remarried then!
Possibly :-\
William Kelly & Winifred Weetman, 2 q 1852, Solihull 6d 565.
A Winifred Weetman b. Boughton Warwickshire is living in Walcot in 1851. Same age and birthplace as William's wife Winifred in 1871.
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Relationships aren't given in 1841, but one does wonder who the parents of the new baby are!!
She was Melania Teresa (or Melanica) and her mother's maiden name was registered as Green (BathBMD), as with the others. (William Kelley married Hannah Maria Green in 1820.) She died on the 14th Aug 1841, aged 10 weeks and was buried at the Catholic Chapel (see FreeREG).
David
Is this info available online anywhere? I can't seem to find it.
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Is this info available online anywhere? I can't seem to find it.
She died on the 14th Aug 1841, aged 10 weeks and was buried at the Catholic Chapel (see FreeREG).
freeReg http://www.rootschat.com/links/01a5l/
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Thanks! That's brilliant!
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Ancestry has an Irene Kelly, aged 26, in the Passenger Lists of the Rockcliffe, port of departure, Plymouth, bound for Queensland, Australia. The exact year isn't shown but the lists date 1848-1912.
Jo.
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Ancestry has an Irene Kelly, aged 26, in the Passenger Lists of the Rockcliffe, port of departure, Plymouth, bound for Queensland, Australia. The exact year isn't shown but the lists date 1848-1912.
Jo.
Is that on the worldwide subscription?
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1901 census, Euphemia Kelly, age 70, is a patient in the Somerset and Bath Pauper Lunatic Asylum in Wells. She is still there in 1911, aged 80, single and described as a "Lunatic".
1891 Euphemia is in Walcot, St Swithin and a boarder in the household of Alfred Holbrook.
The sub to Ancestry is for the world.
Jo.
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I've found William the father in 1861 now. Transcribed as HALLY not Kelly. He's there at the same place, Cornwell buildings, with his wife and a new son called Thapes. At least that's what ancestry says it is. I shall have to find him now!
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Its possibly Joseph
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Thanks! This is brilliant. How do I search the Bath BMD? Are they online?
http://www.bathbmd.org.uk/
It has the advantages over FreeBMD that it includes the mother's maiden name for births, the age for deaths, and the exact spouse and venue for weddings.
William Kelly's son Joseph with his second wife was registered as
Bath Birth indexes for the years: 1856
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
KELLY Joseph William Walcot - First Series Bath WEETMAN WL1/14/091
confirming her maiden name (as already suggested by JenB).
David
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Thanks! This is brilliant. How do I search the Bath BMD? Are they online?
http://www.bathbmd.org.uk/
It has the advantages over FreeBMD that it includes the mother's maiden name for births, the age for deaths, and the exact spouse and venue for weddings.
William Kelly's son Joseph with his second wife was registered as
Bath Birth indexes for the years: 1856
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
KELLY Joseph William Walcot - First Series Bath WEETMAN WL1/14/091
confirming her maiden name (as already suggested by JenB).
David
Thanks! That's great.
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The 1841 is interesting - raises all sorts of questions!
1841
Cornwell buildings, Walcot
Anna Kelly 40 leather seller N
Cecilia 15 Y
Leonora 15 Y
William 14 Y
Irene 12 Y
Euphemia 10 Y
Othelia 7
Lyndetesa? 5 Y
Delphina 1 Y
Treelore Flowers 45 shoebinder Y. (Or may be Holmes?)
N.K Kelly 5 days Y
Relationships arent given in 1841, but one does wonder who the parents of the new baby are!!
Not finding any of them in later censuses.Iwonder of the whole family went off to Scotland or Ireland, then Irene comes back as a visitor over the 1901 census night.
In the 1851 census Freelove Flowers is listed as a monthly nurse so was presumably at the family's house to care for Anna and the baby who was only 3 days old.
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The mystery deepens as I have been trying to research Irene Goulston, marriage, death etc. There is no trace of a marriage for an Irene to a Goulston in the UK in the period 1846-1900.
I cannot find a death for her in the UK either. She was in the 1901 census but no death registered for anyone of that name up to 1930.
The onlt thing I would say is that Goulston is a name that could be mistranscribed.
There has to be an overseas connection here, both for Irene Kelly and the possible Goulston link.
I looked at the Biggs family, George and Annie/Mary Ann but there is no obvious connection with the Kelly family.
Jo.
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The mystery deepens as I have been trying to research Irene Goulston, marriage, death etc. There is no trace of a marriage for an Irene to a Goulston in the UK in the period 1846-1900.
I cannot find a death for her in the UK either. She was in the 1901 census but no death registered for anyone of that name up to 1930.
The onlt thing I would say is that Goulston is a name that could be mistranscribed.
There has to be an overseas connection here, both for Irene Kelly and the possible Goulston link.
I looked at the Biggs family, George and Annie/Mary Ann but there is no obvious connection with the Kelly family.
Jo.
Yes it really is a mystery! I have now sent for the father, William's, will to see if Irene is mentioned in that. Its a last chance I think of being able to link these two Irene's together. The weird thing is that both Irene's are born at the same time in the same place, and neither of them appear on any other censuses, get married or die. Overseas is the only explanation, I feel.
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Process of elimination again, this time Othelia Kelly bc 1834.
1851 Othelia is with her father and sister, Maria.
1871, Othilia Kelly aged 34, unmarried, born Bath, is in The Convent at Baddesley Clinton, Warwickshire. She is shown as part of the "Religious Community". Her name is transcribed as Oshilia.
1881, Ophelia is living as a Boarder in the household of Alfred Riches, Upholsterer, aged 47, occupation: "Lady", born Bath. They are living in 8 Sutherland Gardens, Paddington.
1891, there is an Ophelia Frances Kelly, single, aged 56, Dressmaker, born Bath living as an Inmate in Gloucester County Lunatic Asylum, Wootton St Mary, Gloucester.
1901 Othilia Kelly is back in Bath, single, aged 66, born Bath and living on own means. She is living in Stanley Road.
A death registered in Bristol RD in June quarter 1911 for Ophelia Kelly, aged 76 years.
Could Irene have taken religious vows and entered a convent?
Jo
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Process of elimination again, this time Othelia Kelly bc 1834.
1851 Othelia is with her father and sister, Maria.
1871, Othilia Kelly aged 34, unmarried, born Bath, is in The Convent at Baddesley Clinton, Warwickshire. She is shown as part of the "Religious Community". Her name is transcribed as Oshilia.
1881, Ophelia is living as a Boarder in the household of Alfred Riches, Upholsterer, aged 47, occupation: "Lady", born Bath. They are living in 8 Sutherland Gardens, Paddington.
1891, there is an Ophelia Frances Kelly, single, aged 56, Dressmaker, born Bath living as an Inmate in Gloucester County Lunatic Asylum, Wootton St Mary, Gloucester.
1901 Othilia Kelly is back in Bath, single, aged 66, born Bath and living on own means. She is living in Stanley Road.
A death registered in Bristol RD in June quarter 1911 for Ophelia Kelly, aged 76 years.
Could Irene have taken religious vows and entered a convent?
Jo
But the nuns would still be counted in the census wouldn't they? Or do you mean she would be given a new name and recorded under that? Its possible I suppose....
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I'm still troubled by Irene Goulston though.... ???
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Hi Jackski, I have been searching for Irene with no luck so far :( I wondered if she may have used her middle name, Julianna (ref your first post). Where did you find evidence of her middle name?
Jool
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Hi Jackski, I have been searching for Irene with no luck so far :( I wondered if she may have used her middle name, Julianna (ref your first post). Where did you find evidence of her middle name?
Jool
Its an embroidered sampler which I have bought and am researching. It says "Irene Julianna Kelly, aged 9 years, Bath, 1837". Irene seems to be a very unusual name at this point in time, and given that all the family seem to have unusual names I feel sure this is the right one.
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I've looked up every possible way of spelling Julianna too - but without any luck!!
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Hi Jackski
I don't know whether you've got any further with your quest but I'm always up for a challenge.
This may be a bit of a curved ball but there is an EDMUND GOLDSTONE of 3 Camden Place, Bath who receives his certificate of competency as Second Mate in 1851. (Ancestry)
Apart from that, after the 1841 census he too disappears, no marriage or death in this country as far as I can tell.
He was baptised 15 Dec 1830 at St Swithin's, Walcot, Bath
f. William Bryant Goldstone (Surgeon)
m. Frances
of Camden Place
(FreeReg)
It seems possibly more than a coincidence that Irene lived at Cornwall Buildings, Walcot Street and he lived in the same parish just a few streets away.
She could have sailed with him and returned to England after his death.
Regards
Suecee
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Thanks for that. No - I haven't got any further but this is interesting... I will see if I can follow this any further somehow.
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Did you ever get a copy of her Dads Will?
Was Irene mentioned at all? If so, what surname? Were the other children mentioned? Any other clues from it?
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Her Dad's will never mentioned her. It mentioned his widow, Winifred, and his son by this second wife, and also mentioned daughters Euphemia and Ophelia, but not Irene or Cecilia (Cecilia was still alive at that point)
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If she ran off with Edmund (or anyone else) her father may have disowned her. Or looking at Frances Goldstone's estate Edmund could have made more than adequate provision for Irene and wouldn't have needed her father's support. Edmund's father was a surgeon as was his father before him. Perhaps Frances' will may mention Edmund and possible wife.
I also found a reference to Frances Goldstone in a list of notable converts to Catholicism.
Frances and husband William Bryant Goldstone seem to have gone their separate ways, perhaps because of her conversion, or maybe it caused it. She remained in Bath and he was in the Channel Islands in 1851 and 1861 and may have outlived her. Again her will may reveal more.
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The Kelly family were Catholics too.... this is all looking quite promising again after thinking I'd hit a final brick wall!
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Its EDWARD Goldstone who received masters certificate in 1851 - not Edmund! Disappointed now! Thought we were on to something.
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No, I've rechecked and it is definitely EDMUND. ;D
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This one you mean? It names him as Edward and says he was born in 1820.
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UK and Ireland, Masters and Mates Certificates, 1850-1927
Can't work out a way to show you image (if allowed) but this is the Ancestry listing in the search and the image is definitely Edmund, written twice on both sides of certificate. Goldstone is also spelled correctly on certificate.
Name: Edmund Goldston
Birth: 1830 - Bath, Somerset
Civil: 14 Jul 1851 - London
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The image I posted is from ancestry too. It says he was born 1820. Not sure what is going on here at all.
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The image I posted is from ancestry too. It says he was born 1820. Not sure what is going on here at all.
Looks like you have two surgeon's sons from Bath with similar names and who both went to sea.
Edward son of George and Mary Goldstone bap. 1822
Edmund son of William Bryant and Frances Goldstone bap. 1830
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01e6a/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01e6b/
David
There were also surgeons called Richard and Robert Goldstone baptising children in Bath around the same time. Presumably all related.
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I wonder why I can only see Edward's masters certificate? Can't see Edmund's - yet I do have a subscription to ancestry.
I'm even more baffled then when I began!!!!
Edit: Now found Edmund. Ancestry have transcribed it as GOLDSTON without the E at the end even though the E should be there!
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EDWARD 1821 is a mariner in Liverpool in 1851. He married Ann Thomson SEP 1851 W. Derby (Liverpool is in this district) so EDMUND is still looking good for Mr. Goulston. From 1881 Edward is living in Cullompton, Devon with Ann. He died SEP 1896 Tiverton.
The Goldstone family also had apothecaries and a minister Rev William Goldstone who also converted to Catholicism. They seem to have moved from non-conformist to Anglican and on to Catholic.
From Converts to Rome:-
Golds tone, Mrs Frances, (1795-1868), daughter of William and Lucy
Clarke ; wife of William Bryant Goldstone ; mother of the Rev. William
Golds tone, (1826-1905), M.A., Oxon, and curate of St Michael's, Wakefield,
Yorkshire. (1861)
Goldstone, Mrs Frances Elizabeth, daughter of Edwin and Eliza
Bosanquet ; wife of the Rev. William Goldstone, (1826-1905), M.A., Oxon,
and Curate of St Michael's, Wakefield, Yorkshire. (1868)
Goldstone, Rev. William, (1826-1905), of Bath Grammar School ; M.A.,
Lincoln College, Oxford ; curate of St Michael's, Wakefield, Yorkshire ;
son of William Bryant and Frances Goldstone. (1869)
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If Irene was his wife she would have had to be the second wife then. Its a mystery where this marriage is!
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Unfortunately for us he died before his wife Ann. So couldn't have married Irene.
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EDWARD 1821 is a mariner in Liverpool in 1851. He married Ann Thomson SEP 1851 W. Derby (Liverpool is in this district) so EDMUND is still looking good for Mr. Goulston. From 1881 Edward is living in Cullompton, Devon with Ann. He died SEP 1896 Tiverton.
Unfortunately for us he died before his wife Ann. So couldn't have married Irene.
Hi jackski, I think you are getting a little confused ;D . If you read suecee's post again in says EDWARD married Ann and he died in 1896. EDMUND is out there somewhere waiting to be found, hopefully married to Irene. Hope this makes things clearer.
Jool
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Well I AM completely and utterly baffled ;D so its no surprise, (to me, at least) that I'm now getting these two blokes mixed up!
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Don't worry jackski, we all get confused sometimes ;D . Now to try and track down the elusive Edmund (not Edward ;D ;D )
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Now that I've got those two separated in my mind I can see that yes, - Edmund does vanish just like Irene. He's not on any censuses, and there are no marriages or deaths for him. This does seem like a huge coincidence if the two people are not connected. Are there any records I could check to find him which are not on ancestry?