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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => East Lothian (Haddingtonshire) => Topic started by: c145hoo on Saturday 27 September 14 22:47 BST (UK)
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Is it possible to search the 1911 census by address, if so, could a kind person see who was living at Smiths Close, Nungate, Haddington. Interested to see if a Miss Gallagher who was present there in 1916, was there in 1911, if so with whom. Any assistance really appreciated :)
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I'm afraid that you will have to access the 1911 Scottish Census via Scotlands People (and purchase credits to view any results). There are no transcriptions of the 1911 Scottish census on Ancestry as there are with the other Scottish censuses.
I can't find my way around Find My Past enough to know if they have the 1911 Scottish census ....
I'm sure someone will be able to tell you.
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Hi c145hoo
Unfortunately you cannot do an online address search for the 1911 Scottish census on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. Not sure if this is different if you did this type of search at an one of the main genealogy centres in Scotland?
The Valuation Rolls on SP won't help you for now for 1911 as that year falls between the available 1905 and 1915 currently available online...
May be that the only source for this type of search will be a local library search for the Valuation Rolls or Post Office Directories...these again likely have to be personal searches.
Monica :)
PS: Hello Ruskie ;)
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Hi Monica. ;D (our paths haven't crossed for a while)
Might it just be easier if c145hoo searches for "Miss Gallagher" by name in the 1911 census?
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Ruskie...yep ;D
The other thing to bare in mind when ever you see "Close" on Scottish addresses is that the 'Close' may actually be an alleyway off a main street and may not be addressed/indexed that way if you try to search for an address...
Monica
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Ruskie, MonicaL Thanks for the feedback. I have searched Scotlands people census 1911, but needed an address search, which as you have advised isn't available on-line.
Ruskie, FYI - Find My Past - doesn't have the 1911 Scottish census, its the same as Ancestry. :-\
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Ruskie, Thanks again for the update. If Smiths Close is potentially an alley, what would the address likely be? I have Smiths Close, Nungate, Haddington. :-\
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Sadly, for us all, and for a number of reasons....the only source for the 1911 Census is Scotlands People, supported by www.dcthomsonfamilyhistory.com and in conjuction with GROS.
Other years of the censuses are not so restricted...
Monica
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Ruskie, Thanks again for the update. If Smiths Close is potentially an alley, what would the address likely be? I have Smiths Close, Nungate, Haddington. :-\
This info supplied by Monica actually. ;)
c145hoo, is there more you can tell us about Miss Gallagher? The reason you want to find her in 1911? As the name is so formal presumably she is not an ancestor? Where did you get this 1916 address from? I am just wondering if there is another way we might be able to track her down ...
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Ruskie,
She was named as the 'next of kin' as a 'friend' of Peter (or William) Cairnie, on his WW1 Service Record, and he was subsequently 'shot at dawn'. Trying to establish relatives etc. of Peter (or William) to find details about is family/birth etc....... its all very hazy. >:(
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Hazy and confusing on Peter/William's origins isn't :-\
For background, www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=611504.0
What is your connection to this Peter/William, if any. Is this from a WW1 research angle?
Monica
Added: pdf link not working for me, sorry. Likely only me though :-\
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Ruskie,
She was named as the 'next of kin' as a 'friend' of Peter (or William) Cairnie, on his WW1 Service Record, and he was subsequently 'shot at dawn'. Trying to establish relatives etc. of Peter (or William) to find details about is family/birth etc....... its all very hazy. >:(
Thanks for the explanation c145hoo. Poor Peter and how frustrating to be unable to find any more about him.
Presumably in your searches you have tried spelling variations of that surname?
Sadly there would have been many young lads from poor backgrounds (workhouse etc) join up so perhaps your Peter was one of these and left no paper trail? :-\
Doubly frustrating to just have "Miss Gallagher" and not even a first name - and absolutely no clue about age. :( All I suppose this might indicate is that Peter had no family?
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MonicaL,
Hazy. As the official war records have this soldiers service number as Peter Cairnie, and this ties in with the 'Shot at Dawn' data, and this is on his medal card and other war office papers that didn't get bombed/burnt during WW2. Having seen the Field General Court Martial file, (the same service number) is showing as William Cairnie, hence my comment about Peter / William and the questions why this wasn't picked up during his service / the FGCM and is therefore, in my opinion 'hazy'.
Thank you for the link on Rootschat, you'll see that I've been around that loop already, with good exchanges with 'Cramond Brig', but not sure anyone is 100% certain which Peter Cairnie it was.....
As the only other 'available' information was 'Miss Gallagher' I thought it might be worth having a look for her, just to see whether anything showed up. Have found 2 Gallaghers', Esther & a Mary in Haddington in Scottish Census for 1911, both were 28 in 1911, therefore a bit older that Peter ('William'?). Not sure if I order the extract if this will show others at their addresses (whatever address they have) or whether I just end up with details of them individually?
I am doing this for 2 reasons, a). He may be a distant relative. b). He was a volunteer, and therefore didn't deserve his fate, so I'm remembering him on the IWM 'Lives of the First World War' site (https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/5442028) and trying to find out a bit more about his past. :P
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One possible avenue to check may be the Valuation Rolls. SP have been adding years online on their site, as part of a longer term project.
Currently available to view online around 1916 are 1905, 1915, 1920.
Not sure if you have seen valuation Rolls before. An help guide here from SP www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&2080. Will really only tell you name, tenant/owner, address and occupation.
Checking SP for 1915 with 1 credit gave:
John Gallacher, tenant/occupier. Address House Smith Land at NUNGATE HADDINGTON HADDINGTON BURGH - ref. VR37 / 11 / 164
Also showing one more Gallacher that way:
Mary Gallacher, tenant/occupier. Address House Smith Land at NUNGATE HADDINGTON HADDINGTON BURGH - ref. VR37 / 11 / 163
Regarding SP and the 1911 census searches you were doing (you don't have to order an extract, you can view this online immediately and cheaper).
SP now let you search a census household entry with a second name. The Esther and Mary Gallacher entries you mention do not seem to show in the same household. This doesn't mean that they are not next door neighbours and connected in some way ::) You can't tell any more from just the index though...
Monica
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Just as an additional piece of possible info...
Esther as a name is certainly an easier name to look for rather than Mary and specially with the surname Gallacher!
There is this entry in 1901. Not sure if the same Esther you have in Haddington in 1911, but the only Esther showing that I could find around the right age. Everyone showing as born in Ireland except youngest 3:
John Gallocher 53 Insurance Collecter, insurance collector
Mary Ann Gallocher 57
Ann G Gallocher 27
Mary Gallocher 26
Elizabeth Gallocher 24
Bridget Gallocher 20
Esther Gallocher 17 shirt maker b. Glasgow
John Gallocher 15 son b. Glasgow
William Gallocher 10 grandson b. Glasgow
Address: 435 St Vincent St, Glasgow/Anderston
Monica
Added: I think possibility the mother Mary Ann's maiden name may have been Gaffney maybe. Some possible birth entries in Sligo for the 3 eldest girls that could fit this group.
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Hi Monica and c145,
Watching this thread with interest.
Do you think Peter/William Cairnie could be false name?
Looby :)
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Hard to know isn't it. You would think with the amount of attention his case and court martial would have had then and later, something would have come out by now :-\
Monica
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Hard to know isn't it. You would think with the amount of attention his case and court martial would have had then and later, something would have come out by now :-\
Monica
:-\ Yes - Just confusing the William/Peter mix-up.
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On the other thread , it's stated that a Peter Cairns enlisted in 1916 - I think Monica provided the info-
quote- There is a Peter Cairns showing in Service Records who enlisted, I think, early May 1916 at the age of 25. Born in Glasgow, a labourer by occupation and residing at the time at Reilly's Lodging House, Haddington. This Peter's details show as Reg. - The Royal Scots Div. and Reg. No. - 3942.
Service record matches above and they include the record of the execution and matching date.
Is this the same person as Peter/William Cairnie?
Reilly's lodging house was in Bridge Street Haddington and was probably owned by a Martin or Cornelius Reilly according to https://mbasic.facebook.com/260724300623881/photos/a.260737027289275.75790.260724300623881/820095271353445/?type=1&refid=17
Just in case it helps :)
Looby
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Thanks Looby for adding :) Was thinking of looking through again to remind me of age and location etc for the Peter we have in those early military records around 1916.
So, without jumping to assumptions, we have a number of clear references to Haddington and Glasgow.
There is no Peter (or Patrick as a common variant of Peter...never mind adding William to the mix!) Ca*rn* showing in East Lothian on the 1915 online SP valuation rolls. As a labourer, this Peter may have moved around with jobs...
Monica
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Done a wee bit digging - call me an old romantic but I think Miss Gallacher could have been Peter/William's "special" friend. I think it's the formality of Miss -evokes a bygone age when a young man's girlfriend would be called by her title .
Anyway - The Mary Gallacher at Smiths Land, Nungate Haddington in 1915 Valuation rolls is also there in 1920. She is a widow.
1911 Census - Skinner's Close Hardgate Haddington.
Mary Gallacher widow age 50 Outworker born Ireland
Mary Gallacher dau age 22 Outworker born Edinburgh? (I think that's what it says)
Bridget Gallacher dau age 19 Outworker " " "
Annie Gallacher dau age 10 School born Dalkeith
According to the book Closes of Haddington - http://issuu.com/liliantuohymain/docs/haddington_closes_27th_march_pages
Skinner's Close was demolished circa 1915 - so could Mary and her daughters have moved to Smiths Land??
Mary Gallacher jnr appears to marry a William Ross in 1915.
Bridget Gallacher never marries. She dies age 65 at her sister Mary's in Haddington 10th Dec 1958 of Cardiac Failure and TB.
Could Bridget be the Miss Gallacher of Smith's Close Nungate ? :'(
All suppostion ;)
Looby :)
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Supposition is all we have at present Looby ;) Like the look of that too.
Been looking through again the military details of the Peter Cairns we have so far. His ages is clearly given as 25 yrs, no months/days as is practice. So, he either wasn't sure of his exact birth date (not uncommon) or he was born after 5 April 1891 and early May 1891...to match his birth age of 25 on the service papers in early May 1916. Impricise science really though...including I noted he had the name Robina as a tattoo...tried searching for a Robina Gallacher...a couple of possibilities...but this would be streching it daft really :P
I worry that we have nothing hard to connect to really :-\ Even if we were to find the right Miss Gallacher, this would not mean we would connect back to the right Peter (or William :-\) and his own family.
Big struggle this one so far until we find a key piece of personal info for him that helps firm up the information really.
Monica
Added: Looby, been looking through your link http://issuu.com/liliantuohymain/docs/haddington_closes_27th_march_pages - hadn't come across it before. Great link :)
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Just thought to re-add the previous links. The more times we go through all the details, and info already discussed, hopefully someone at some point may add that key piece of info:
Shot at Dawn www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=611191.0
Private (William) Peter Cairnie or Carney www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=611504.0
Monica :)
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Update - When Mary Gallacher (daughter of Widow Mary Gallacher) marries in 1915 - her address is given as Waterside, Nungate, Haddington.
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http://issuu.com/liliantuohymain/docs/haddington_closes_27th_march_pages -
Can I also add what a great link to a fascinating and beautifully presented booklet. :)
You two are doing so well. I'm afraid it is beyond my knowledge and skills so I have nothing constructive to add.
(PS. I originally thought Miss Gallagher may have been Peter's sweetheart, but then I visualised her as a kindly old woman who perhaps lodged in the same lodging house as Peter. My imagination was running away with me. The word "friend" is so vague :-\ ...
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Ruskie...I agree..I think we are stuck again :-\ We have all tried so hard over recent months, but I am not sure now how to take this all forward a bit more :-\ From experience in this type of seach, we miss one key hard piece of info that we can work from to then use as the basis to the searches for family. Miss Gallacher is too loose unfortunately to connect to family...even if we did have her first name really :'(
Monica
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Yes Ruskie - The Closes of Haddington is indeed a well presented book - invaluable for Haddington based research.
And you are right Miss Gallagher could be a sweetheart, a kindly granny figure, or just a friend.
I wish we could get a lead on Peter/ William , he deserves to be identified. I think the tattoo of "Robina" is also interesting. Could Robina be a girlfriend , or a wife (maybe dead), or a child?
The plot thickens.
Looby :)
Oops - our posts clashed Monica :)
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Monica, I have not seen the original sign -up/service papers.
Did this soldier sign up initially as Peter Cairns ?
I've been a wee bit puzzled by that.
Looby :)
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loobylooayr & MonicaL, some really good ideas and feedback in your posts. It was speculative that a Miss Gallagher might lead us back to the correct Peter C. but was worth a try in case something concrete came up.
I've seen the original Field General Court Martial file for soldier Pte Cairnie (No 3942 later 40806) and throughout he is referred to as Pte. W. Cairnie, except in one document that has him as Pte. William Cairnie. The on-line WW1 Service Records for Pte Cairnie 3942 later 40806 all have him as Pte. P. Cairnie or Pte. Peter Cairnie.
I plan to visit The National Archives at Kew next week to see if I can review the actual original documents, and see if there is anything not visible on the image copies that may help - will let you know.
In several posts in this chain, there is reference to Peter Cairns Service Record (which ties to 3942 or 40806) - I can't find anything (Ancestry or FindMyPast) for Peter Cairns, can you provide any further info on this, as I will see if I can get access to the originals of these as well. :)
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Hi C145hoo,
I notice on CWGC website that Private 40806 is recorded as Peter Cairnie, yet on the Grave Registration document his name is recorded (typed) as Cairnie W - with the W scored out with red pen and a small handwritten red P written to the side :-\.
You wonder if the Court Martial was so rushed they filled in the wrong name :o
Good luck at the National Archives, I look forward to hearing how you got on .
Regards Miss Gallacher, I would not be surprised if Bridget Gallacher was the young lady Peter named as next of kin. She is certainly in the right area at the right time . The flat at Smiths Land was owned by Martin Reilly who also owned Reilly's lodging house (not that that goes for anything as the Reilly's owned several properties it seems).
Lastly re. the tattoo. of Robina....is that clearly written ...a similar name is Rosina.
Looby :)
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loobylooayr, I saw the same on the CWGC documents earlier this week and sent a request to them to enquire what information they had received that caused them to manually update their record - still awaiting a response, but will pass it on as soon as anything received.
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Have put up copies of Pte Cairnie documents on the IWM 'Lives of the First World War' site which has the 'Enrolment Papers' as well as copies from the Field General Court Martial
https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/5442028
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Have put up copies of Pte Cairnie documents on the IWM 'Lives of the First World War' site which has the 'Enrolment Papers' as well as copies from the Field General Court Martial
https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/5442028
Thanks c145hoo.
I've had a look. They make interesting but very sad reading.
His enrolment is certainly in the name Cairnie and his signature is clear.
I struggled to decipher the description of his tattoo but the name is clearly Robina.
(I had found a Glaswegian Peter Cairns of right age with a wife Rosina and a baby daughter Rosina and wondered if he was worth further investigation :-\ )
Good luck with your search . Lets hope something else crops up for you.
Looby :)
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Looby, the 'Original Record of Service - Enrolment Paper' has no details in the particulars of marriage and in the particulars of children, this too is blank, suggesting he was neither married or with children. I think this backs up why the next of kin is Miss Gallagher, rather than a family member/relative. Rgds c145hoo
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Hiya, Yes I did read that.
And of course it was probably the case that Peter gave Miss Gallacher as his next of kin because he had no-one else.
Sadly through experience tracing my own WW1 heroes, I know that what was filled out on enrollment was not always true :-[.
Some were economical/vague with the truth.
One of my lot served under a false name and gave his next of kin as his mother but under her maiden name with her real street and house number but a different town. He also lied about his age , added 2 years on, although being in his 20s he was already old enough to enlist. He served for 2 years before all this came to light when he went AWOL and was court martialed.
Another claimed he had previously served in army when he hadn't - he was always a miner.
Looby :)
Added - Actually c145hoo , you have inspired me. I should really the details I have of my WW1 Scots onto the In Memorium board. Thanks :)
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Looby, you're of course right that not all information was provided properly, and in this case one has to question why Peter Cairnie didn't correct the FGCM and tell them that he wasn't William Cairnie, unless he was hiding something else, or hoping to avoid his record from showing up that he had gone AWOL on a number of occasions - which may point the Officers at the FGCM to believe he was a persistent offender - he was successful in this, as his 'Evidence of Character' states 'no previous entries, whereas, in truth, he had already had a number of AWOL charges against him. :P
On a different note, hope your relative, that was Court Martialed, didn't suffer the same fate as Peter C. :-\
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Forgive me if my comment just adds to confusion, but was interested re the variations of the name Cairns, Cairnie.
I have a "Cairns" in my ancestors, and she is listed variously as "Cairns, Cairney, Kearney" - and if your man was Irish - could the last spelling "Kearney" be one you would want to check out.. re earlier records especially?
Good luck - with a very difficult one!
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On a different note, hope your relative, that was Court Martialed, didn't suffer the same fate as Peter C. :-\
My Ayrshire born gg-uncle didn't serve with the British Army in WW1, c145hoo.
He had emigrated to Australia just prior to the Great War, working in NSW as a miner ( almost all miners my lot). He volunteered in 1915 with the AIF and for some reason he enlisted with a fictitious first name and his mother's maiden name and gave the other false details too.
He then was trained in Australia, then briefly based in England before serving in France.
He was wounded in April 1918 - shot in the arm - and transported back to a hospital in England for treatment and to recuperate . It was from this hospital he went AWOL in Sept 1918 and was missing for 3/4 weeks. That was when they found out he wasn't who he said he was! And he was found and arrested in his home town. This led to the court- martial in October 1918 where he was found guilty. Perhaps the Australian forces were more lenient or perhaps because he went AWOL while not on active service he was sentenced to jail-time and fined part of his wages. He was in jail on Armistice Day. He returned early 1919 to Australia on a troop ship and lived out his life dying in the 1950s,
Phew.....BTW it took me 7 years searching to find out what happened to this man. I knew from family story that he had disappeared prior to Great War and was never heard from again (Obviously again family members being economical with the truth because he was arrested in their home village!! ;D ). There must have been a sense of shame within the family at the time.
Anyway good luck with Peter Cairnie .
Looby :)
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Looby, you and me both! My maternal grandfather (Peter Cairnie - not the same one we are looking at) travelled to Australia and war was declared during his voyage. He signed up on arrival with the AIF and fought with the ANZACs at Gallipoli, was a casualty and repatriated back to Oz, and finally made his way back to Scotland (although I can't find out how/when).
Your GG Uncle is likely to have been treated at Harefield, in England, which had a large AIF hospital, just outside London. There is an AIF war cemetery at the parish church in Harefield where 111 AIF soldiers are buried.
My understanding of the ANZACs was that they flatly refused to follow the British/French example in executing soldiers who 'lost their way', and no AIF soldiers were executed - much to the anger of British Generals.
Did you know that AIF soldiers records are available on the Australian military site, and they are much more comprehensive than the British records. If you need it, I have their web site address?
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Maggbill...the more the merrier, hopefully someone will pick up on these threads and be able to provide some 'concrete' information. Having Cairnie in my family tree has seen the same individual in records as Cairnie and then as Cairney and then back to Cairnie....and it wasn't that they were illiterate! Unfortunately we have very little information about Peter (William) Cairnie, so back tracking is proving exceptionally difficult. The possible variations of name, just make it more difficult, but thanks for the input. :D
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Did you know that AIF soldiers records are available on the Australian military site, and they are much more comprehensive than the British records. If you need it, I have their web site address?
I would appreciate that link to AIF records site, although I have viewed records on the National Archives of Australia site. That was how I managed eventually to piece my gg-uncle's story together.
Looby :)
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Looby, You may already have it, but herewith
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/SeriesDetail.aspx?series_no=B2455&singleRecord=T
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Thank you.
It may be what I already have :) but I'll take a look.
This Peter Cairnie who was shot at dawn, do you think he is also related to you? Or are you researching him because he shares the name of you grandfather? Was your grandfather from Glasgow too?
Looby :)
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Don't know if he related - but it is possible. Need to do more research on my GGGF/GGF siblings to see if this Peter is one of their children/childrens children. My GF was born in Dalkeith, MidLothiam, although his Grand Father (also Peter) was born in Glasgow (1832).
Came across Peter at The Scottish War Memorials project http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot-ftopic7128.html
and similarity of name. As a WW1 volunteer, he did not deserve his fate, so irrespective if he distantly related or not, felt he shouldn't be forgotten. ;)
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Good luck with your research.
The fact that we are discussing Peter 100 years on means he's not been forgotten. Hope you have success with tracing his origins regardless of a connection to you or not.
Looby :)
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Hi All,
Joined the party late, have been going over old posts.
« Reply #9 on: Sunday 28 September 14 18:33 BST (UK) »
I opened the PDF link, and having trouble with the "Miss Gallagher", it is so formal, why would he not use her first name. Is it "Miss", can it be something like "Aliss". Need the handwriting experts view on this.
Tom
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Hi tidybooks, there is a duplicate copy of Peter Cairnie military service records and one copy is a bit clearer, which identifies her a Miss
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Hi Tom,
To my inexpert eye it looks like Miss. But like you say maybe the handwriting experts will see it different.
Although very formal, it didn't occur to me that using Miss was odd. Just thought it usual that women from this era (even working class women) would not always be referred to by their first names, especially when in conversation with strangers/people in authority. That Peter replied Miss Gallagher in answer to the question Who is your next of kin? did not strike me as unusual.
Looby :)
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That second copy does seem clear as Miss.
But what is written just after Friend ?
And the date 11/1/17? Would that be when Miss Gallagher was informed of Peter's death, do you think?
Looby :)
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Hi c145hoo,
That does make it clear, no ambiguity there. I still find it funny that he would use "Miss" in a next of kin record, and describes her as a friend not a next of kin.
Tom
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Having re-read the Service Record, it is interesting to see the comment after Miss Gallagher, Relationship 'Friend' which could be infd (informed?) particularly as there is a 11.1.17 (11 Jan 1917?) potential date. The handwriting of the next of kin is different to that of the rest of the Service Record, so could have been added on 11.1.17, at the same time as the comment/date. The question then is where did this contact information come from, there is nothing in the Court Martial records about next of kin. Unfortunately as the Service Record was damaged during WW2 bombing, we may never know. Food for thought though! ???
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Hi,
I know Looby thought it was normal, to use Miss for a young woman at that time, but I think you would need christian name to differentiate if there were two or more ladies in the family. Looks like "inf/d" for informed, but it is funny if added later. It is even more strange if "next of kin" was empty on enlisting, even if he was an orphan.
Tom
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Obviously, we will never know but it is possible that Miss Gallagher was just a friend. Not a girlfriend or a fiancee. She could have been someone he knew through his work or a neighbour who agreed to be his next of kin contact. People were more formal then - he may only have known her as Miss Gallagher. :-\
Peter's details are a bit sketchy - no exact age , no relative, a lodging house address -but I don't think that would be too unusual either. The next of kin would have be given by the recruit if not when signing up then before he went overseas. Either Peter had no family, or he didn't want to name his family.
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c145hoo,
I was browsing the Scottish War Memorial site and spotted this thread -
http://warmemscot.s4.bizhat.com/warmemscot-ftopic8817.html
The contributor has listed Peter Cairnie with a snippet of information. There is mention of -
b.1890-1891, Ayr/Kilmarnock - but unfortunately no source provided.
You may have already seen this but I thought I'd bring it to your attention anyway :)
Looby :)
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Looby, Thanks for the following from The Scottish War Memorials Project: -
Cairnie,Peter,40806,Pte.,1st.bn.RSF.,executed for Desertion, 28/12/1916.
deserted trs.nr.Serre,exexcuted 7a.m.at J.15.d. near Bus-les-Artois,E.S.E.of Doullens.
Map 57D NE3
b.1890-91,Ayr/Kilmarnock.WO 71/532,D1916 126/AF 30(25)
name on Thiepval Memorial,Somme,France.Pier&Face 3C.
Have sent a request to them to see if anyone can ascertain where this information came from - will let you know when (if) i get a response.
Have looked on Scotlands People for William Cairnie or Peter Cairnie from 1880 through 1900 and only get 8 responses for William and 10 for Peter and none of these for Ayrshire.
Am still trying to obtain a copy of the book 'Shot at Dawn' Executions in World War One by Authority of the British Army Act by Julian Putkowski, Julian Sykes (ISBN: 9780850526134) which our local library is due to have a copy soon - as according to Cramond Brig there is a bit more information in the article about William/Peter, but not a lot, so don't really want to spend £20+ to review one page!
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Hope you get a reply.
I've also tried Ayrshire for Peter but like you no likely candidate :-\
I will be interested to hear if you get any further info.
Looby
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Hi c145hoo,
Did you ever get word back from the Scottish War Memorial Project re. Peter Cairnie and the Ayr/Kilmarnock place of birth?
I've been taking advantage of FindMyPast's free access weekend and remembering poor Peter looked him up. His records are in a poor state :(
Anyway also checked out Censuses and found this which excited me -
1901 Census -
Wellmeadow, 29, Paisley, Renfrewshire.
James Cairney head married age 34 General Labourer born Ireland
Annie Cairney " age 38 born Ireland
Annie Cairney dau age 11 Scholar born Kilmarnock, Ayrshire
Peter Cairney son age 7 " born Kilmarnock Ayrshire
Ellen Cairney dau age 4 born Paisley, Renfrewshire
James Cairney son age 0 born Paisley Renfrewshire
Phelix Cairney boarder single age 32 General Labourer born Ireland
James McAulally boarder single age 18 General Labourer born Ireland
Looby :)
PS. I visited Edinburgh Castle recently and visited the huge Scottish War Memorial there which has large ledger books of each regiment WW1 and WW2 with the names of all the fallen recorded. I checked out the Royal Scots book - this Peter is listed - just basic name , rank, date of death. My daughter and I quietly paid our respects.
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Looby,
Apologies for long silence, been tied up in other activities! Received the following back from CWGC the other day, although not of much help!
Our Ref: 110588
Date: 23 January 2015
Thank you for your e mail of 25th September 2014. Please accept our sincere apologies for the delay in our response – this is due to the very high volume of enquiries we are receiving, since the commencement last year of the 1914-18 Centenary Commemorative period.
With regard to your query concerning the forename of the following casualty:
Rank: Private
Surname: CAIRNIE
Forenames: PETER
Service No: 40806
Unit: 1st Bn.
Regiment: Royal Scots Fusiliers
Date of Death: 28 December 1916
Commemoration
THIEPVAL MEMORIAL, Somme, France, Pier and Face 3 C.
It appears that the amendment to our record was made in the 1990s – we can assume that general, internal research during that time brought to light that the individual was named Peter; as you suggest his service records and medal card refer to him as Peter and in addition, two key publications on field court martials (‘Shot at Dawn’ and ‘Blindfold & Alone’) both refer to him with this name as well. The reference to him as being named ‘William’ has yet to be explained, but one could speculate that this was either a simple reporting/transcription error at the time the early military records were being compiled, or even possibly a name he used to confused the authorities at the time of his several arrests for desertion. Other than the above casualty details we have no documentation, dating back to the post war years that indicates next of kin or family contact details and I am sorry to disappoint you in this respect, and I regret that we have no further information to offer clarification in respect of the difference in names. May I thank you however for taking the time to write to us and for waiting for our response, in what is a very busy time for the Commission.
Kind Regards
:-[
Re. Peter Cairnie and the Ayr/Kilmarnock place of birth, will post a further update shortly...
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Hi again c145hoo,
No need to apologise ....life can take over from Family History...sometimes :P
Good to hear an update
What a pity there was no further info from CWGC on Peter but at least they have clarified that he was a Peter.
Look forward to any further update.
Looby :)
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Herewith the response back from A.N. Other who posted the original details on The Scottish War Memorials Project web site: -
I first penned the Article in 2003 when the Info was very sparse on the executed men.I used the book "Death Sentences passed by military courts of the British Army 1914 - 1924" for much of the Info. Against Peter W. Cairnie's name was Note 529 - bn.from Ayr/Kilmarnock. I have never updated the detail as such. I couldn't find any Cairnie from Ayrshire that matched the Info available.The FGCM papers gave his Christian name as William, so there I left it.
I've since read 'Blindfold & Alone', 'Shot at Dawn', 'For the Sake of Example' & 'The Thin Yellow Line' but these add no additional information or clarity on Pte Cairnie. I've yet to get hold of a copy of "Death Sentences passed by military courts of the British Army 1914 - 1924". There is a new edition of 'Shot at Dawn' due to be published in late February 2015, so will see if anything gets updated in that version.
Will post updates once I get to see both the books mentioned.... ;)
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Hi,
It seems that the area in Nungate Haddinton was named after a James Smith it seems he was an Architect.
See old map attached.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Hi again,
if you call the Library at Haddington they might be able to help you Telephone: 01620 820680 they are very good, it is better calling them and tell them clearly what you want.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Archie,
Thanks for the map and the library details, it all helps building the picture. I'll phone the library and see if they are able to help and will post an update.....