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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: thetowers on Monday 29 September 14 04:19 BST (UK)
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Here's a mystery which may benefit from a fresh pair of eyes.
One of my in-laws relatives recently came across this newspaper account of the wedding of her great-aunt, Sophia Louise Madgwick (1878-1950), to George Toynton in 1907. Apparently, the "Wellington Times" was only added to Trove recently.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/141591291
The curious and novel feature of this story, is the mention that the only bridesmaid was Miss Elsie Nichols, niece of the bride. The identity of this Elsie is a mystery.
This Sophia Madgwick had one brother, who was married in 1906 and whose oldest son was born in 1907. Sophia also had 9 much older half-siblings by the name of Nicholls or Nichols, the offspring of her mother's first marriage. Obviously, this alleged niece would seem to be one of their children. But whose ?
Only one of Sophia Madgwick's Nichols ( or Nicholls ) half-siblings was a male - William Nicholls (1854-1934). According to Sophia (Madgwick) Toynton's daughter, who passed away a few years ago, she knew this old chap, when she was a child, he was not married and had no children that she knew of.
The other 8 of Sophia Madgwick's Nichols half-sisters were females. Apart from one who died aged 6, the others had a whole bunch of children. The catch is, there doesn't seem to be any Elsie among them, and they all seem to have had their husband's surnames. There doesn't seem to be any obvious reason why any of Sophia's identifiable nieces would have been called "Miss Elsie Nichols".
Any suggestions on how to identify a mystery niece bridesmaid ?
My in-laws' screed on this family runs to about 97 pages, I haven't retyped all of it here, happy to provide any further details that are already known.
Sophia's half-sisters were:
Catherine (1851? 1937) married Dougherty, 13 children.
Elizabeth (1856-1931) married New, 5 children
Ellen (1861?-?) married Brown, 9 children. When this lady died, is another mystery.
Mary(1864-??) married New and then McLeod. 2 children.
Margaret(1866-1905) married McLeod, 8 children
Flora(1868-1952) married Clifton, probably 2 children.
My relative says she has looked for any subsequent marriage or demise for this 'Miss Elsie Nichols" and could not find any.
Any suggestions on how to identify a mystery niece bridesmaid ?
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Well it is definitely a mystery :)
Sands 1905 and 1909 NSW Country Directories
None with surname TOYNTON
None with surname MADGWICK
Sands 1905
NICHOLS, J R, a baker, Ballina
NICHOLS,S A wheelwright, Baulkham Hills
Sands 1909
NICHOLS, K, fruiterer, Woonona
NICHOLS W.T, jun, auctioneer etc Ashford
NICHOLS William J., butcher, Ournie
At the conclusion of your cutting there’s mention of “Mudgee Guardian”, so perhaps that newspaper was the source of the Wellington Times article? Perhaps there’s more info in the Mudgee Guardian? (currently it is in the process of being digitised)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/20258079?selectedversion=NBD8101450
http://blog.sl.nsw.gov.au/pls/index.cfm/2013/12/17/future-nsw-newspaper-digitisation
Mention that Miss Elsie MICHOLS, the bride’s niece, attended her….
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/103246735 The Newsletter: an Australian Paper for Astralian People 23 March 1907
Groom of Windorah, Wellington.
NSW Electoral Roll 1903 ROBERTSON, polling at Leadville
William NICHOLS, of Denison Town, labourer
None with the surname MADGWICK; none with given names Sophia Louisa (there were 161 electors listed)
Cheers, JM
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I don't get your point. The existence of Sophia Madgwick and George Toynton, and their large family, is not in any doubt, regardless of whether they appear in your directory.
The question being posed, is, who is this supposed niece Elsie ?
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Here's a photo of their tombstone at Molong.
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=7286158 (http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=7286158)
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I don't get your point. The existence of Sophia Madgwick and George Toynton, and their large family, is not in any doubt, regardless of whether they appear in your directory.
The question being posed, is, who is this supposed niece Elsie ?
I was trying to find your Elsie NICHOLS, so looked in the same districts as the bride and the groom as mentioned in the cuttings, expecting to find them in that 1905-1909 era. I looked in the 1903 electoral rolls, for ROBERTSON as that is the electorate that covered both Wellington and Mudgee at that time.
I have found that when I am searching rural NSW family history these rural families can be found via both the Sands directories and the electoral rolls.
The directory is the Sands Directory. Here's a link to it .... It is a well respected directory http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
Cheers, JM
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NSW Electoral Roll 1903 ROBERTSON, polling at Leadville
William NICHOLS, of Denison Town, labourer
None with the surname MADGWICK; none with given names Sophia Louisa (there were 161 electors listed)
Cheers, JM
Perhaps your Miss Elsie NICHOLS was of Denison Town and perhaps related to the above chap.
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Denison Town Cemetery 1850 - 1915 has 1 x NICHOLS and 1 x MAGICK
MAGICK / MAGWICK etc .....variations on name to be found.
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Could this be HER...
ELSIE CATHERINE NICHOLLS Daddy was WILLIAM Mummy was MARGARET and she was registered at PARRAMATTA Ref # 18001/1876
Neil
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Good find Neil.
NSW ER 1878 PARRAMATTA
William H NICHOL, of Parramatta Junction, freehold Harris Park.
Cheers, JM
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Good find Neil.
NSW ER 1878 PARRAMATTA
William H NICHOL, of Parramatta Junction, freehold Harris Park.
Cheers, JM
Is that from SANDS?
Neil
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Could this be the marriage?
5561/1863 William NICHOLLS married Margaret FINNIGAN @ Sydney
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Could be them as they had nine kiddies from 1864 to 1879 at Parramattata
Neil
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Thanks for those suggestions, I will pass it on to my sister's husband's sister to look into.
According to my relatives' huge file on this family, which they have been working on for decades, William Nichols (1854-1934), the older half-brother of Sophia Madgwick, was a poor gold miner his whole life and lived at Apple Tree creek which I believe is just south of Mudgee. Maybe he also owned land at Harris Park, Parramatta. But I kind of doubt it.
Apparently this newspaper story only came to light recently and they are bamboozled who this Elsie may have been.
It is curious that the Wellington paper names the neice as Elsie Nichols and the "australian newsletter for australian people" names the niece as Elsie Nicholls. They are also ambivalent about Windorah or Windora. I wonder what the Mudgee paper's version will say.
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Could this be the marriage?
5561/1863 William NICHOLLS married Margaret FINNIGAN @ Sydney
William was supposedly born around 1854, so that might be a bit early for him to be married. Although there are factual conflicts whether William or his sister Catherine was older.
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This may be the in memorium notice for the couple William and Margaret. They died in the same year, so perhaps we are looking at the wrong people.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15850449?searchTerm=william%20AND%20%22margaret%20nicholls%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=margaret+nicholls
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Do you have Williams' death certificate or details of his death?
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I don't know if it is the wrong family as one of the children was Ruth Nicholls she must have married someone by the name of Knowles?
I don't think we should discount anybody as we don't have a birth date, but you can if you like. ::)
Neil
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It says here that William Nichols died on the 23rd April 1934 at Church Street Mudgee, late of Cudgegong shire. His death certificate says he was a miner.
It says he was born on 12 january 1854 and baptised 7 March 1854, and his sister Catherine was born on 10 december 1851 and baptised on the same day 7 March 1854. Which makes it seem that Catherine was 2 years and 1 month older than William. These dates apparently come from the film of the baptism register.
However, the death certificate of their father, John Nichols, who died in 1868, says that William and 16 and Catherine 14. And the death certificate of their mother who died in 1929 says her children were William (77) and Catherine(75).
This apparently makes it seem likely that the preacher who baptised both of them in 1854, wrote down their birthdays the wrong way around in his book.
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Here is Elsie Stirrat's notice re the death of her Mother and Father Margaret and William Nicholls in 1918.
Trove : Sydney Morning Herald 3rd October 1918
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01aa5/
Neil
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Even if William was born in 1851 and not 1854, a marriage in 1863 seems unlikely. My in-laws seem to believe he was never married. Maybe he had a daughter, Elsie, anyway.
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Even if William was born in 1851 and not 1854, a marriage in 1863 seems unlikely. My in-laws seem to believe he was never married. Maybe he had a daughter, Elsie, anyway.
Maybe
Neil
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This may be the in memorium notice for the couple William and Margaret. They died in the same year, so perhaps we are looking at the wrong people.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15850449?searchTerm=william%20AND%20%22margaret%20nicholls%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=margaret+nicholls
I was just thinking along the lines that as there was no family stories about a wife or children, and he was known as an old man who wasn't married, perhaps his wife died young or they separated. This newspaper article with them dying close together discounted my theory and made me think we were looking at the wrong couple.
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William NICHOLLS born 10 Dec 1851, baptised 7 March 1854, son of John and Mary
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTHV-7WL
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTDY-FL4 born Wellington NSW 10 Dec 1851
NSW BDM has William as 1851, ref Vol 40, line 1211
NSW BDM has Catharine as 1854, ref Vol 40, line 1210.
So both were baptised on the same day, and Catharine’s baptism was recorded on the line above William’s.
There are quite a number of NSW marriages prior to 1935 where the groom is recorded as young as 14, and the bride 12.
Here’s one where the bride was 11. This was 1924. This certificate is on the NSW BDM website
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/resources/m1924-3913.pdf
Add
It says here that William Nichols died on the 23rd April 1934 at Church Street Mudgee, late of Cudgegong shire. His death certificate says he was a miner.
It says he was born on 12 january 1854 and baptised 7 March 1854, and his sister Catherine was born on 10 december 1851 and baptised on the same day 7 March 1854. Which makes it seem that Catherine was 2 years and 1 month older than William. These dates apparently come from the film of the baptism register.
However, the death certificate of their father, John Nichols, who died in 1868, says that William and 16 and Catherine 14. And the death certificate of their mother who died in 1929 says her children were William (77) and Catherine(75).
This apparently makes it seem likely that the preacher who baptised both of them in 1854, wrote down their birthdays the wrong way around in his book.
I think you will find that the clergy wrote it correctly and the researcher has simply mis-read their transcription of the film, afterall, it seems likely that the two siblings were baptised on the same day....
Cheers, JM
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The in memoriam notice posted by Elsie and James Stirrat, apparently concerning Elsie's parents, looks to me as though it says her father William Nichols died in 1890 and her mother Margaret Nichols in october 3 1917.
That what the 1918 one says, anyhow. In the 1919 one, the year of her father's death is smudged. I don't think Elsie Stirrat's parents died in the same year.
This Elsie Nichols appears to have married James Stirrat, at Ashfield in Sydney in 1894. NSW Marriage 2115 of 1894. It seems improbable that she is the "Miss Elsie Nichols", bridesmaid in 1907.
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NSW ER 1870 MUDGEE
William NICHOL of Two mile Flat, residence, Two mile flat
John Henry NICHOLS, of Mudgee, household, Cox Street
William NICHOLS, of Two mile Flat, residence, Two mile flat
Charles NICHOLLS, of Campbell’s Creek, freehold, Campbell’s Creek
Cheers, JM
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Is it possible that one of William's sisters had a child (Elsie) before she married? This would explain the surname of Nicholls.
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In the sydney morning herald of 3 october 1918, the noticed by both alice david and elsie stirrat, commemorating the first anniversary of their mother's death, say that their father william nicholls died 21 March 1890.
The death of this William Nicholls is in the herald of 25 March 1890:
" NICHOLLS.-March 21, at Callan Park Hospital, William Nicholls, after a long illness from affection of lungs and brain, in his 50th year, leaving a wife and large family to mourn their loss."
This is a different family to the William Nicholls who lived at Mudgee and died in 1934.
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In the sydney morning herald of 3 october 1918, the noticed by both alice david and elsie stirrat, commemorating the first anniversary of their mother's death, say that their father william nicholls died 21 March 1890.
The death of this William Nicholls is in the herald of 25 March 1890:
" NICHOLLS.-March 21, at Callan Park Hospital, William Nicholls, after a long illness from affection of lungs and brain, in his 50th year, leaving a wife and large family to mourn their loss."
This is a different family to the William Nicholls who lived at Mudgee and died in 1934.
I agree, I think we can eliminate this family.
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Is it possible that one of William's sisters had a child (Elsie) before she married? This would explain the surname of Nicholls.
I was referring here to your William's younger sisters as mentioned in post#1
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This Sophia Madgwick had one brother, who was married in 1906 and whose oldest son was born in 1907. Sophia also had 9 much older half-siblings by the name of Nicholls or Nichols, the offspring of her mother's first marriage. Obviously, this alleged niece would seem to be one of their children. But whose ?
The other 8 of Sophia Madgwick's Nichols half-sisters were females. Apart from one who died aged 6, the others had a whole bunch of children.
Sophia's half-sisters were:
Catherine (1851? 1937) married Dougherty, 13 children.
Elizabeth (1856-1931) married New, 5 children
Ellen (1861?-?) married Brown, 9 children. When this lady died, is another mystery.
Mary(1864-??) married New and then McLeod. 2 children.
Margaret(1866-1905) married McLeod, 8 children
Flora(1868-1952) married Clifton, probably 2 children.
I think that there is a sister missing here. There are 6 named plus the one who died aged 6. Was there another?
Regards
Jennaya
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NSW ER 1870 MUDGEE
William NICHOL of Two mile Flat, residence, Two mile flat
John Henry NICHOLS, of Mudgee, household, Cox Street
William NICHOLS, of Two mile Flat, residence, Two mile flat
Charles NICHOLLS, of Campbell’s Creek, freehold, Campbell’s Creek
NSW ER 1878 MUDGEE
NICHOLLS Charles, senior, Campbell’s Creek, freehold, Campbell’s Creek
NICHOLLS Charles, junior of Campbell’s Creek, freehold, Campbell’s Creek
NICHOLLS, James, of Campbell’s Creek, freehold, Campbell’s Creek
NICHOLLS, Harry M of Slasher’s Flat, residence, Slasher’s Flat
NICHOLS Henry M, of Grattai, residence, Grattai
TOYINGTON Isaac, of Bara Creek, leasehold, Bara Creek
TOYNTON John Wright of Bara Creek, residence, Bara Creek
TOYRINGTON Isac Wright of Bara Creek, residence, Bara Creek
May I enquire please as to the 1907 marriage certificate? On that document, how old was Sophia, and how was her maiden name recorded by the officiating minister/registrar? What information did she provide about her parents?
Cheers, JM
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Grevilles PO Directory 1875 DENISONTOWN
James MAGIC, farmer, Talbragar
Mary NICHOLS, selector, Talbragar
NSW ER 1870 THE BOGAN
James MAGICK, of Coorootheic, freehold, at Talbragar River
Joseph NICHOLLS, of Mungery, residence, at Bogan River
So, who was Mary NICHOLS, selector at Talbragar is she the widow who re-married?
Cheers, JM
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Births/Baptisms for the girls
Catherine NICHOLLS, Vol 40, line 1210, 1854
Elizabeth NICHOLS Vol 121B, line 4269, 1856
Ellen NICHOLS, #7083, 1861 registered Coonabarabran
Mary NICHOLS #7638, 1864 registered Cassilis
Margaret J NICHOLS #7613, 1866, registered Cassilis
Flora S NICHOLS, #8364, 1868, registered Cassilis
Sophia L MAGICK, # 11031, 1878 registered Cassilis
Cheers, JM
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To address your questions in some sort of chronological order, as I understand it ( the file is about 2 inches thick, this is the 300 word summary). Some of these, I have verified myself, some by my brother-in-laws's sister, aunt and cousin, and some from other people.
James Madgwick and his brother William were from Windsor NSW. Their purported father William Madgwick dies in 1860 at the reputed age of 108. They moved to the NW frontier, where James remained and William returned to Windsor. The actual father of them may have been a man called Westbrook, which is someone else's problem, not mine.
James was married to a half-aboriginal woman and had about 13 children. She died on 15 October 1872.
Meanwhile, Mary Cameron was born in Scotland and came to Australia, aged about 5, in 1839. In 1849, she married at Dubbo a man called John Nichols or Nicholls, who appears to have been a former convict but now some kind of policeman. Depending which documents you believe, they had between 8 and 10 children. John Nichols died at Mudgee on 29 August 1868. At some point he retired or was fired from the police and he had a small selection at Denison Town.
The widow Mary was married to James Madgwick or Magick on 2 September 1875 and she had two more children, Archibald born 23 June 1876 and Sophia born 28 August 1878. James Madgwick died in December 1880 at "Pine Ridge" station. He also owned a property at Cobbora. If the birth date for Sophia is correct, she was 71 and a half when she died, the tombstone says 70 I think, close enough for me. There isn't a copy of the actual marriage certificate in the file I have, she would have been 28 or 29 when she married. In 1907, he father was dead since 1880 and her mother was still alive and present and appears to be mentioned, as Mrs Madgwick, in the newspaper account of the wedding.
Magick or Madgwick, it's the same people, I don't know if they could not spell or numerologists or Mr Westbrook or whatever.
It's confusing the posts now appear in the reverse order.
The James Madgwick at Cobbora in 1870 and the James Magic at Denison Town in 1875 are the same person. The Mary Nichols, selector, at Denison Town is the same person, she was a widow for 7 years before her second marriage, which probably occured in 1875 after the directory compiler had come along so he didn't get her new married name.
There were several other families called Nichols or Nicholls in the Mudgee region. None of the people in your post listing people near Mudgee seem to be connected, as far as I can tell from what I have here.
John Wright Toynton was the father of George Henry Toynton who married Sophia Madgwick in 1907. I dunno about Isaac.
Archibald Magick, who was a businessman at Binnaway and died in 1974 aged 96, used the name Magick consistently. Sophia used the name Madgwick. The children of James Madgwick's first marriage, who mostly lived at Gilgandra, appear to have used both spellings indiscriminately.
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Jennaya has hit the nail on the head by pointing out the numerical discrepancy in what I said before about Mary Cameron's daughters.
The missing one is Ann Agnes Nichols. This woman appears anachronistically in the old church records born 10 December 1862 baptised 12 July 1864 by Rev Alexander McEwan, abode Denison Town father John Nichols. According to the file, no birth registration has been found.
This woman appears to have died on or about 11 April 1936 at Little Bay. The SMH of 14 April has "Funeral Notice: Nichols - The funeral of the late Mrs Agnes Annie Nichols will leave our private Mortuary Chapel, 265 Elizabeth-street, Sydney, this Tuesday at 1:30 PM for Botany Cemetery. Mrs P Kirby and Son, Ltd, leading funeral directors, 265 Elizabeth-street Sydney."
Note that Nichols here has 1 L, registry index entry has 2 L's. Also, deceased is described as "Mrs Agnes Annie Nichols", although she appears to have never married.
The file says this is death 6527 of 1936, Agnes Annie Nicholls, parents John and Mary. It is unclear whether my in-laws have verified this with an official certificate.
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Is it possible that one of William's sisters had a child (Elsie) before she married? This would explain the surname of Nicholls.
If one of William's married sisters had a pre-nuptial child in the 1880's, you'd think they would be trying to gloss over or obscure this 25 years later, rather than drawing everybody's attention to it, in the newspaper. Unless somebody had an axe to grind.
But what about the un-married sister ? I noticed this one
Birth reg 23209 of 1885, Helsey M Nichols, mother Annie A, father not stated, district Cassilis.
Is "Helsey" a name ?
Based on the amount of stuff in the file compared to the others, it appears my in-laws never found out very much about this Ann Agnes Nichols.
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A death recorded for the above "Helsey" possibly.
ELSIE M NICHOLS, FATHER ERNEST A, MOTHER ALICE M, AT BURWOOD NSW REF# 1033/1898
Neil
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Hi there,
I am surprised that the question of who was Miss Elsie NICHOLS has only arisen now, and only as a result of the newspaper cutting becoming available via TROVE. I would have anticipated that the question as to who was Miss Elsie NICHOLS would have arisen back when the earlier researcher obtained Sophia’s 1907 marriage certificate and then researched the names of the witnesses on that document. Perhaps the document records Elsie as simply as “E NICHOLS”. and the researcher compiling that 97 page document was not interested in establishing any family relationships in respect of witnesses.
The various spellings of the surnames is of course understandable, afterall, the early electoral rolls were established by the local police making enquiries and then recording the responses.
Re Helsey M Nichols, mother Annie A, birth registered Cassilis in 1885, and your question ‘Is “Helsey” a name ? “ ; there was no definitive lists of ‘names’ that were approved for use. Even in the 1880s there’s many a child whose given names include family surnames (with various spellings), and of course, the index for those 1880s births that you can see at NSW BDM online was not actually commenced until a volunteer project was established in the 1930s.
So it is possible that Helsey is a mis-read of the entry held by NSW BDM. Of course, when spoken aloud, “Helsey” could be “Elsie”. Births were registered by the informant providing verbal answers to verbal questions at the rural registrar's office, often located at the local court house, so the spelling is dependent on the deputy registrar's talents.
Perhaps that birth registration would be a document that should be obtained. NSW Birth Certs can be quite informative, including details of where the mother was born, and her then age, plus where the baby was born, and the midwife attending the birth (often a female family member in the rural districts).
Cheers, JM
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MMM... I wonder whether the mother of the child--
Birth
REG 23209 Yr 1885, Helsey M NICHOLS,
Annie A,
Cassilis
chose to give her daughter the surname of the father (whom she later married)
Marriage-
REG 2661 Year1897 ELSLEY Frederick
To NICHOLLS Anna
At ALBURY
Sue
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Further to the 1885 birth registered Cassilis...
The informant registering the birth does not need to be the child's mother. The informant was required to state their relationship to the child. This information is noted in a different section from the details about the child's parents. So, it was possible for the child's father to register the birth, and be recorded in the lower section as such, even if he was not formally married to the child's mother and therefore the child's birth is not indexed in his name. There was no space provided for a child's surname on NSW birth registrations until sometime in the late 1960s.
Red post ..... that's a possibility Sue :)
Cheers, JM
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Discount my earlier as the Nichols family had other children in Sydney sadly it would seem they lost two of three triplets in 1904 as well as the earlier Elsie in 1898.
Neil
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The missing one is Ann Agnes Nichols. This woman appears anachronistically in the old church records born 10 December 1862 baptised 12 July 1864 by Rev Alexander McEwan, abode Denison Town father John Nichols. According to the file, no birth registration has been found.
May I note that your in laws seem to have located the original parish registers but it seems these entries have not been included in the NSW BDM online indexes. So may I note that the NSW BDM would likely be interested in updating their records.
From their website: http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh/bdm_rec.html
“Acquiring the Early Church Records
The Registry began acquiring copies of Early Church Records since 1856. Efforts to acquire or copy these registers were undertaken in 1856, 1879 and 1912. In recent years further church registers have been found and copies of their contents forwarded to the Registry for inclusion in the State's records.”
I was one lass who together with a Church Archivist, found that such a register had not been included in the Early Church Records, and subsequently, after quite a number of years have passed, the entries are now on the latest update of the NSW BDM indexes.
There is of course a number of logical explanations for the records not reaching the NSW BDM.... Particularly in the 1860s, the quarterly returns were forwarded in the mail, which of course travelled in the same coaches as the gold. There were disruptions to these deliveries ..... bushrangers, floods, overturned coaches, etc. And of course, if the clerks in the Sydney office could not read the scribble on the returns, then these were not in a state to be processed. So, if other baptisms in the same parish register are also NOT included in the NSW BDM online index, then perhaps the civil registration quarterly returns did not make it to Sydney.
Cheers, JM
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Births/Baptisms for the girls
Elizabeth NICHOLS Vol 121B, line 4269, 1856
Perhaps another Elizabeth NICHOLS :)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTX4-RYF
Elizabeth NICHOLS, baptised 29 July 1855, C of E, dau of John and Mary
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTC3-46T
Elizabeth NICHOLS, born 7 May 1855, baptised 29 July 1855, at Kelso, dau of John and Mary.
Cheers, JM
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The missing one is Ann Agnes Nichols. This woman appears anachronistically in the old church records born 10 December 1862 baptised 12 July 1864 by Rev Alexander McEwan, abode Denison Town father John Nichols. According to the file, no birth registration has been found.
I think the following would be the 1862 birth and 1864 baptism for Ann Agnes Nichols, as indexed at NSW BDM. I am including Elizabeth and Margaret S indexed info too, as it shows the sequence of line numbers leading to Ann A NICHOLS registration. Civil registrations commenced 1 March 1856, however, the NSW BDM does have quite a number of "V" registrations for many years after civil registrations commenced.
Oops, here they are :)
1856 Elizabeth NICHOLS dau of John and Mary Vol 121B line 4269
1858 Margaret S NICHOLS dau of John and Mary Vol 121B line 4270,
1862 Ann A NICHOLS dau of John and Mary Vol 121B line 4308
Cheers, JM
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The missing one is Ann Agnes Nichols. ...
In the first post. I said there were 8 Nichols daughters, and then actually listed 6.
She was "missing" from the list of six because she had no known marriage or children. There is a list here in the file of all of Mary's grandchildren, and that was the page I was looking at when I copied down the list of daughters and the number of their children, and Ann Agnes wasn't mentioned on that page at all. I was not paying enough attention. Sorry.
The other one was the first Margaret, who died aged about 6, and is supposedly buried in the old cemetery at Denison Town.
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She says here at Elizabeth Nichols and Margaret Sophia Nichols have both a birth certificate AND an "old church records" reference.
The new NSW website is very confusing, isn't it? IIRC you can go and look at the actual films for most of those at the state library. That would be hard to do without those V number.
She's made a note here, she's looked at the film apparently
New South Wales Baptism Transcription (early church records), AO Film 5014 / Reg Ref V1856 4269 121B/1856, 1859. Elizabeth, parents John Nichols and Mary Cameron, born May 26 1856 bapt. 30 January 1859, born Mundooran, father constable, Minister Alexander McEwan.
New South Wales Baptism Transcription (early church records), AO Film 5046 / Vol 1856 4269 121B / 1856. Recorded on Register page headed "Presbyterian Baptisms in the District of the Western Goldfields, County Wellington, Year 1859". Actual location of the baptism was not stated.
Why would it be film 5014 and also 5046 ?
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Most likely reason for the two films would be that two different registers were being used concurrently, one as a 'back up' of the other. Many of the denominations used (and still use) two registers. For example, when marrying in a church, the bride and the groom are still often asked to sign three or more registers. One will be the civil register, and the others will be the parish register and its back up. The parish registers are often required to be stored separately from each other, both in fireproof safes, so say one would be kept within the Church building, and one at the clergy's manse.
The Early Church Records are, of themselves, interesting. Back in 1810, Gov Macquarie issued a general order requiring all the clergy (of all the denominations) to transmit records of baptisms and burials (and later added marriages) that they celebrated back to the NSW Chaplains. So, at times it may seem that a bdm event occurred at say St Philips C of E, Sydney, when in fact that was simply the NSW Chaplain recording a transmission from a clergyman, including not just the Protestant denominations, but also Roman Catholic ceremonies. Many of the apparent 'duplicated/triplicated/quadruplicated' entries at NSW BDM 'pre 1856' (ie the V series) are simply the recorded transmissions from the outlying districts. One of my 1810s ancestors has FOUR entries for her baptism. So I have four different films AO (NSWSRO) reference nos. for those. (Add and each has a slightly different piece of 'gleaned' information about either herself or her parents)
Cheers, JM
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I would have anticipated that the question as to who was Miss Elsie NICHOLS would have arisen back when the earlier researcher obtained Sophia’s 1907 marriage certificate and then researched the names of the witnesses on that document.
I would have anticipated that too. My brother-in-law's aunt started this in the 1980's. Things were different before the internet. It may not have been an issue. When she started, all of Sophia Toynton's children were still living and she might have just asked them about it.
Also, the bridesmaid doesn't have to be a witness. I just looked at a bunch of my own which I have here. Most of them weren't.
Perhaps that birth registration would be a document that should be obtained.
I think so.
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Is it possible that one of William's sisters had a child (Elsie) before she married? This would explain the surname of Nicholls.
If one of William's married sisters had a pre-nuptial child in the 1880's, you'd think they would be trying to gloss over or obscure this 25 years later, rather than drawing everybody's attention to it, in the newspaper. Unless somebody had an axe to grind.
But what about the un-married sister ? I noticed this one
Birth reg 23209 of 1885, Helsey M Nichols, mother Annie A, father not stated, district Cassilis.
I would definitely recommend getting this certificate. "Helsey" and "Elsie" do sound the same. Also if Annie did have an ex-nuptial child, it's possible that she stayed home on the farm with the child and raised her (this happened with one of my ancestors). It would also explain her being chosen, out of all the nieces, to be the only bridesmaid. She would have had a closer relationship with her. It would also explain Annie dying as Mrs rather than Miss. It might be good to get the death certificate of Annie as well.
25 years later the scandal of the ex-nuptial child would be over, and also the newspaper just says she is a niece, not an illegitimate niece.
Regards
Jennaya
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I agree with Jennaya, re the 25 years was more than enough time for the gossipers to have forgotten. Also, on at least one of the public submitted trees, there's a mention that Margaret, the mother, was a mid-wife, so perhaps Elsie was delivered by Margaret. But as to what became of Elsie after her Aunt Sophia's marriage .... I have not yet found any sightings, sorry. I have skimmed many of my hardcopy resources, (mostly NSW, and then mostly Central West and Western NSW) but not found any leads. (Most of my resources are 19th Century, so 1907 becomes 'quite recent' in that sense).
I can find Mary NEW, at Windora, on the NSW ER 1903 ROBERTSON, polling at Wellington. But no mention of anyone surnamed NICHOLS there. (there's a NICOLLS, but different given name).
Sorry,
Cheers, JM
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Could this be Elsie marrying in Queensland in 1920?
B24685 Elsie NICHOLLS married Victor GILES.
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Mary Cameron Nichols Madgwick was a midwife, do you think Margaret was also ??
The Mary New at Windorah is Mary Nichols b. 1864.
She married first to her sister Elizabeth's father-in-law, and then when her younger sister Margaret Jane died in 1905, she divorced her first husband and married her dead sister's husband John Allan McLeod. I think there is another thread here where someone was asking about her.
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I agree with Jennaya, re the 25 years was more than enough time for the gossipers to have forgotten.
I also agree, which is why after 25 years, I'd be avoiding reminding them.
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Could this be Elsie marrying in Queensland in 1920?
B24685 Elsie NICHOLLS married Victor GILES.
How about these, then ? Married aged 8 and 5 ?
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=9168975
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How about these, then ? Married aged 8 and 5 ?
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=9168975
NSW BDM has Victor John’s 1980 dc as #10452.
That document should give you when and where he married. It may well be a different couple from the 1920 couple in Qld.
Cheers, JM
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Could this be Elsie marrying in Queensland in 1920?
B24685 Elsie NICHOLLS married Victor GILES.
How about these, then ? Married aged 8 and 5 ?
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=9168975
Not sure what you are getting at here. I also found this couple, but it could hardly be the same couple as the ones who married in Brisbane in 1920 as they are too young. People did move states in those days so there is no reason to exclude the Brisbane marriage, especially as we can't find any record of Elsie in NSW. We can't say it's definitely her either. Elsie could also have moved to Victoria.
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Perhaps Agnes death certificate will have a mention of whether or not there were children
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Who was Madame Elsie Nichols
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16269128 SMH 12 Dec 1925
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16266278 SMH 14 Dec 1925
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/105934588 Cumberland A & F Advocate 20 Oct 1932 (PHOTO of her)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/108136444 Catholic Press 20 March 1930
Who was Miss Elsie NICHOLS of Petersham, of the Sydney Harmonic Choral Society in the All Australia Exhibition in Tasmania
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/23619595 Mercury, 27 October 1922
Could Miss Elsie Nichols of Petersham in 1922 and Madame Elsie Nichols be one and the same? Or is it simply a co-incidence that both their voices had been trained Choralists. (errrr ..... if there’s such a word ;D it is late at night, at least that's my excuse :))
Cheers, JM
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Without going through all 7 pages do we have a rough year of birth of Elsie. Could it have been 1884 ??? ??? ???
Neil
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The "Helsey Nicholls" birth earlier in this thread was registered in 1885. Pretty close I think. :)
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There is a death registered in NSW in 1955 for a Elsie Giles with a birth year of c 1884. Not to discount the finds of the Singer Elsie Nichols that Majm has come across. Just another follow up?
Neil
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How about these, then ? Married aged 8 and 5 ?
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=9168975
An Elsie OLLEY married a Victor GILES at Lismore in 1937, so perhaps that’s the couple mentioned earlier as at Lismore Cemetery. (NSW BDM)
Cheers, JM
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The Elsie NICHOLS indexed at Ryerson SMH 2 August 1967 was a married lady, aged 80, with greatgrandchildren.
http://www.ryersonindex.org/
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC (This should get you to The Sydney Morning Herald, and so to coverage to 1989ish for the classifieds for family announcements that can help cross-matching from Ryerson index) Try this link and scroll through if other link falls over http://news.google.com/newspapers
Also, there’s online coverage SMH to 1995 via NSW State Library Readers Card; these cards are available to NSW residents.
Cheers, JM
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There is a death registered in NSW in 1955 for a Elsie Giles with a birth year of c 1884. Not to discount the finds of the Singer Elsie Nichols that Majm has come across. Just another follow up?
Neil
I drilled down and got a death date of 13/08/1955
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Birth reg 23209 of 1885, Helsey M Nichols, mother Annie A, father not stated, district Cassilis.
I drilled down and got an event date of 30/11/1884. So this Helsey was born 1884, and birth registered 1885.
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There is a death registered in NSW in 1955 for a Elsie Giles with a birth year of c 1884. Not to discount the finds of the Singer Elsie Nichols that Majm has come across. Just another follow up?
Neil
I drilled down and got a death date of 13/08/1955
Could this be Elsie marrying in Queensland in 1920?
B24685 Elsie NICHOLLS married Victor GILES.
SMH death notice for GILES, Elsie Jane died Aug 13, 1955. Relict of the late Frank GILES.
so probably not the one marrying in Qld
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I cannot find likely death for Madame Elsie .... perhaps I am not looking carefully enough, but she seems to vanish. I phoned the daughter of my original violin teacher (who was known to all her students as "Madame ......") and asked her if she was aware of any way I could search out for other musical disciplines and their "Madame" teachers.... She will look through her Mum's scrapbooks over this long weekend and let me know if there's any lists/names of local (NSW) societies etc. My "Madame" 's qualifications / certificates etc are framed and in the hands of other family members, but the details are also in those scrapbooks.
I explained it could all be for a 'wild goose chase', and wasting her valuable time, but she replied "I will enjoy re-living my mother's memories"
Fingers crossed, that there's the remote possibility that I am on track on this one.... so often I am way off the mark. ::)
Cheers, JM
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I was off track .... way ... way off .... track with Madame Elsie NICHOLS ….
Madame E NICHOLS, 21 Croydon Street, Petersham
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/103424902 Arrow 16 September 1932
NSW Police Gaz, Watches and Jewellery Reported Stolen, Missing, etc 26 Oct 1927
Owner: Victor R NICHOLS, 193 Albany Road, PETERSHAM …. A gold medal “Elsie Nichols 1922” also other words on back; a silver medal with gold centre “Madam Elsie Nichols” also other words on back.
NSW BDM has a Victor Richardson NICHOLS, 54 years of age, died at Marrickville, 1936 (#22823)
And a marriage registered Petersham for Victor R NICHOLS and Elsie KETTLEY, 1915 (#10291)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17282016 SMH 2 Nov 1936, at the Home of Peace Marrickville, Victor R NICHOLS, late of Whale Beach.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17282284 SMH 2 Nov 1936 (late esteemed Treasurer Masonic Choir)
I will phone my "Madame"'s daughter in the morning.
ADD
It is now morning, I have phoned, and perhaps we may soon have a new RChatter.
Cheers, JM
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Majm, the word is chorist, or chorister.
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Agh, well now you have posted those two words, well of course I remember.... now why could I not remember that last night.... ::) Chorister ! Chorist :)
Many thanks Pine, you have rescued my grey cells.
Cheers, JM
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Right,
Now, who was Miss E NICHOLLS, secretary of the Grattai Tennis Club in Sept 1916
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/156891900 Mudgee Guardian 21 Sept 1916
(The Ad reads …… please return same, immediately to where they took them from. If they fail to do this, a meeting of the members of the Club will be called and the guilty party will be severely dealt with. )
Miss E NICHOLLS, Secretary (JM notes this Miss had two “l” in her surname, and possibly was a schoolie, cause she knew how to threaten to deal out punishment ! ! ! despite her grammar )
Or who was Miss E NICHOLS winning some Needle and Fancy Work prizes at the Manildra Show ….
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/139851242 Mudgee Guardian 12 Sept 1908
Cheers, JM
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Possibly also rifle shooting in 1912. E. Nicholls of Grattai.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15306209
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As an aside,
Archibald Magick, who was a businessman at Binnaway and died in 1974 aged 96, used the name Magick consistently. Sophia used the name Madgwick. The children of James Madgwick's first marriage, who mostly lived at Gilgandra, appear to have used both spellings indiscriminately.
While waiting for Trove to upload the full digitised version giving details of Sophia's 1907 marriage, I noticed a mention of a Mr Archie MADGWICK of Leadville. Towers, are you sure that your chap used the name Magick consistently? You see, from my armchair perspective, I can find Archibald and Ethel F MADGWICK listed as the parents of two children whose births were registered at Gulgong. His surname is indexed as MADGWICK on those births, and also with that same spelling on his marriage registered in 1906, and thus, to me, he is likely the same chap as mentioned in the Mudgee Guardian 20 Dec 1906 as Mr Archie MADGWICK of Leadville and likely Sophia's brother.
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
I know this thread is a good few years old by now but i'm hoping someone sees this post.
My great grandmother was Elsie Merle Nicholls of Mudgee. I wish to find out a lot more about her if possible or any relatives of the Nicholls family.
thanks so much,
Shilo
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Hi Shilo
Welcome to Rootschat.
Esie has proved to be a bit elusive.
Perhaps you could start by telling us what you already know about her.
Birth, marriage, death dates etc.
Regards
Jennaya
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Hi Shilo,
Welcome to rootschat :)
This is a long shot!
I wonder if this is her marriage description in 1936 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article162107806
Elsie Merle NICHOL of Mudgee. ???
The NSW marriage index also has Elsie Merle NICHOL so it's not just a typo by the newspaper.
1936 Elsie Merle NICHOL to Stanley Arthur ROCHESTER at Mudgee reg 16348/1936
They divorced in 1946 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article27910527 https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/1185398
Ros
adding : This lady possibly married William John GASH (named in divorce) and possibly died in Queensland in 1972
1972 Elsie Merle GASH, father George Henry NICHOLLS, mother Catherine LEE B37005
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Hello and thank you for the welcome :)
Wow! You guys sure are quick off the mark. rosball you were spot on! That is my great grandmothers details you found. Elsie Merle Nicholls (or Nichols/Nichol - I'm never entirely sure which) married her first husband Stanley Arthur Rochester in 1936 but I'd never seen the trove newspaper links so thank you so very much for sharing. She did indeed divorce Stanley and marry William John Gash. Apart from these facts I do not know much other then she died in Brisbane, Queensland at the age of 53 (in the house I grew up in) in 1972 as you mentioned. Which puts her to be born in 1910, making the role of 'Bridesmaid' at 3 years old (1907) seem rather impossible? Maybe my Elsie isn't the mystery Elsie after all?
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I do apologise, looking back to my research, I forgot to mention some more details about Elsie - Not sure if they're helpful or if we're even talking about the same Elsie but worth mentioning never the less.
Elsie's parents were George Henry Nicholls and Catherine Lee. George Henry died in 1926 at just 26 years old (this is an entirely different and interesting case that I would love to know more about but don't want to pay out any more $$$ on a particular website that costs a bomb :-[ ). Catherine Lee remarried Roderick J T McRae.
From what I have found, Elsie's siblings were as follows..
Marie M Nicholls - Born & Died 1927
Myril C Nicholls - Born 1924 Died 1988
George Nicholls - Born 1926 Died 1991
Half Siblings
Elizabeth A McCrae Born 1932 Died 2002
Alexander D McRae Born 1934 Died 1944
Marie McRae Born & Died 1936
Baby boy - Stillborn 1937
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Vic Death: 1963 #5397 William John GASH
Father's name: GASH Thomas
Mother's name: Julia (Holland)
Place of birth: Natimuk
Place of death: Jordanville
Age: 59
The Age 11April1963 pg15 (pg 8 in this link) http://tinyurl.com/ybxrkdea
(1st column of Law Notices 2nd notice from bottom)
Letters of Administration for WILLIAM JOHN GASH of 45 Cleveland Road Jordanville in the State of Victoria, Turner and Fitter...be granted to ELSIE MERLE GASH of 45 Cleveland Road Jordanville ....Widow and one of the next of kin of the said deceased...
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Oh dear, Math is not my strong point!.. I just realised I said Elsie could not be the bridesmaid in question because she would be 3 in 1907.. um, more like not even conceived yet. ::)
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Vic Death: 1963 #5397 William John GASH
Father's name: GASH Thomas
Mother's name: Julia (Holland)
Place of birth: Natimuk
Place of death: Jordanville
Age: 59
The Age 11April1963 pg15 (pg 8 in this link) http://tinyurl.com/ybxrkdea
(1st column of Law Notices 2nd notice from bottom)
Letters of Administration for WILLIAM JOHN GASH of 45 Cleveland Road Jordanville in the State of Victoria, Turner and Fitter...be granted to ELSIE MERLE GASH of 45 Cleveland Road Jordanville ....Widow and one of the next of kin of the said deceased...
Oh my goodness! Wow! Thank you so much for sharing. You truly are all wizards with information finding. I hope I can learn these skills one day. This is amazing. I'm so glad I stumbled across this site. Thanks cupoflife :) :) :)
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Shilo I can photograph Elsie's divorce papers the next time I am at the state archives.
I can also photograph any probate packets for your family https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/ who died in NSW (mostly before 1980 but a few available after that). Just type their name into the main search box.
Ros
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Here is a snippet of the inquest decision on George Henry NICHOLLS 1926. It's hard to read but sadly I think he shot himself in the heart ...?
Ros
adding : I think it says "effects of a bullet wound to his left heart inflicted by himself" with something inserted which I can't read.
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Here is death notice for George Henry NICHOLLS who died in 1991
Ros
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Ros, that is amazing of you. Thank you so much. Wow, shot himself in the heart. How awful.
And thank you for the clipping of my Uncle George who passed in 1991. I remember going to his funeral in Sydney as a little girl.
So kind of you to offer to take photos of divorce and probate packets. I will get back to you with some names. :)
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No problem Shilo :)
I try to get to NSW RO every 3 or 4 weeks to take photos of probates divorces etc for rootschatters. I limit myself to 16 files per visit now [getting old and klutzy :( ] so if it's a long list some will have to wait for future visits. Just list them by priority :)
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I just read this interesting thread.
According to my uncle's notes, which I just saved from the bonfire, this might be of interest
"Mrs. Annie Agnes Nichols, of Horatio-street, a resident of Mudgee for 26 years, and a native of Mendooran, died in the Prince Henry Hospital, Sydney, last Saturday, at the age of 72. Mr. A. Magick (Binnaway) is a brother, and Mesdames G. Toynton (Molong) and R. Dougherty (Leadville)are sisters. Mrs. M. Collins (Paddington) is a daughter, and Misses Elsie and Myril Nichols and Mr. George Nichols, all of Mudgee, are grandchildren. There are also another daughter and two other grandchildren in Sydney."
This looks like a printout of Trove and it is from the Mudge Guardian of 16 April 1936.
He's crossed out Mrs. and written n.m. next to it. Not married ? He's also crossed out brother and written half brother at the side. Underneath he's written mother of George also ?
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Looks like you may have solved the puzzle
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Looks like you may have solved the puzzle
Well the Elsie Nichols mentioned in that newspaper in 1936 was the daughter of George Nichols the motorbike mechanic who shot himself, and she was born about 1920, so she wasn't the bridesmaid in 1907.
Either "Mrs M Collins" or "another daughter with 2 grandchildren in Sydney" must have been the elusive bridesmaid from 1907.
It looks like Annie Agnes Nichols, who was born around 1863, had three children, none of which had an identifiable birth registration.
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I was actually referring to the fact that it looks like Annie Agnes Nicholls # 34 did in fact have an ex-nuptial child. In fact it looks like she had three. The Helsey Nicholls born to Annie A. #35 looks like she could possibly be the elusive Elsie who was bridesmaid at the wedding. If I was the OP, I would be looking as getting some certificates to prove this.
Regards
Jennaya
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What kind of certificate would prove the identity of a bridesmaid ?
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Here is the newspaper cutting mentioned in reply #86
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162102107 page 7
It seems that death is indexed as NICHOLLS, Agnes Annie, registered Redfern district, with parents as John and Mary. #6537.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17325166 SMH 14 April 1936, to Botany Cemetery.
ADD
See also reply #34
JM
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Thanks JM, saved me looking it up. :)
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What kind of certificate would prove the identity of a bridesmaid ?
My I suggest that it is not just a certificate that may be suitable, but any document providing a family history relationship in its information, and also giving a signature for Elsie, so two signatures can be compared to confirm/eliminate ...
In NSW records ...
:) perhaps Elsie was an informant for a death of a family member, then of course, if she married, her signature ... or perhaps she was a bridesmaid several times over ... perhaps for other family members ...
:) perhaps she provided statement with her signature for a probate matter, and perhaps that was proven in NSW Supreme Court, and perhaps the packet is currently held at NSW Archives
:) perhaps a family member served in AIF, during WWI, perhaps their service record is digitised at National Archives website ... perhaps there's correspondence there with Elsie's signature on it.
May I mention that the OP has NOT been online since April 2016.
JM