RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: bibliotaphist on Monday 29 September 14 10:54 BST (UK)
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I understand that coats of arms on internet "Family Crest Stores" don't always have much bearing on reality, and that I most probably have no particular claim or right on them just because they match a particular surname.
But the arms offered for a particular surname (e.g. mine (http://www.4crests.com/stainthorpe-coat-of-arms.html)) by these companies must have come from somewhere. Are they generally invented from scratch? Plucked from an old book of heraldry at random? Or is it likely that they will be associated with somebody of that surname at some point in the past? Does anyone know how these companies operate?
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The coats-of-arms always have a link to someone of the surname mentioned - but you can only (officially) use them if you are a direct descendant!
Just imagine if your name is Smith (for example) - how many coats-of-arms are there for the name Smith?!
Even my own surname (Garrad) has a few listed.
However, I found a blazon (description in heraldic language) of the arms of a defunct line. A John Garrad who died without issue in the 1600's.
So I use the shield ONLY, and not the full armorial achievement!
If you carefully read exactly what these companies tell you, it becomes clear.
They usually tell you that a coat-of-arms is "associated with your surname" (or something like that)! ::)
In addition, the company you provided the link for are American! WTF do Americans know about English Heraldry? :o ;D :-X
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I've got no interest in 'claiming' spuriously or otherwise a coat of arms for myself. I'm not sure what I'd do with one if I had one :) ...carry a banner of it next time I ride avenging into battle maybe?
I'm just vaguely interested -- especially as my name is slightly less common than e.g. Smith -- in who it might have been who shared my surname and who was apparently granted arms.
But before I go looking for this person, I want to dispel my nagging doubt that the company in question just made it up or picked one at random. They don't list their sources on their website, funnily enough.
Paul
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There are many books out there containing Armorial Bearings - some old, some not so old.
All they do is create a database of these.
Then hook you in and sell you a load of tat!! ;D
The definitive site would be the College of Arms (for England & Wales).
Others include: www.armorial-register.com/
https://archive.org/details/britishheraldorc02robs
https://archive.org/details/generalarmoryofe00burk
Scotland is different - it is still illegal in Scotland to use a coat-of-arms to which you have no entitlement!
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Thanks for the links! I'll take a look.
Scotland is different - it is still illegal in Scotland to use a coat-of-arms to which you have no entitlement!
Now that's the best reason I've heard yet to try one out ;)
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The one book that nearly all of these "bucket shop" databases are built upon is The General Amory of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales by Sir Bernard Burke. This volume, published in the late 1800s, contains roughly 60,000 coats of arms, organized by surname.
The general method used by the folks who want to sell you "your family crest" is to delve into their database (which may also include J.-B. Rietstap's Armorial Général, containing some 120,000 coats of arms from all over Europe) and either print out the oldest coat of arms used by someone with that surname, or to print out the oldest coat of arms used by someone whose surname sounds similar. For example, if your surname was "Warren," you would probably be sold the arms of William de Warrenne, as his is the oldest attributed use of arms by someone surnamed, Warren (even though his direct male descent line died out in just a few generations). As an example of the latter, I know of an instance where someone with the surname "Scolly" was given the arms of someone surnamed "Scholar."
I hope that this gives you an adequate answer to your initial question.
David
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The one book that nearly all of these "bucket shop" databases are built upon is The General Amory of England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales by Sir Bernard Burke. This volume, published in the late 1800s, contains roughly 60,000 coats of arms, organized by surname.
Aha - thank you David (and again thanks KGarrad) for the useful information. Even with my pretty much nonexistent knowledge of blazon terminology, I can see from the General Armory (https://archive.org/stream/generalarmoryofe00burk#page/960/mode/2up) on Archive.org that the design that several companies are hawking as attached to my surname in fact comes from this entry:
Stamford (temp. Richard III.). Gu. a saltire vair betw. four lions' faces or.
This means "Stamford (http://www.houseofnames.com/stamford-family-crest)" is identical to "Stainthorp (http://www.houseofnames.com/stainthorp-family-crest)" in their database. Clearly a liberal coating of Soundex has been applied ;)
So, even more tenuous than I had imagined.
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Stamford (temp. Richard III.). Gu. a saltire vair betw. four lions' faces or.
This means "Stamford" is identical to "Stainthorp" in their database. Clearly a liberal coating of Soundex has been applied ;)
Yes, that is (far too often) just how it works. Can't find the name a customer is asking for anywhere in the database? Find something that sounds close and use it. The example I gave of Scolly getting the arms of Scholar was from an 18th Century bucket shop in Boston, Massachusetts. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
David
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Stamford (temp. Richard III.). Gu. a saltire vair betw. four lions' faces or.
This means "Stamford" is identical to "Stainthorp" in their database. Clearly a liberal coating of Soundex has been applied ;)
Yes, that is (far too often) just how it works. Can't find the name a customer is asking for anywhere in the database? Find something that sounds close and use it. The example I gave of Scolly getting the arms of Scholar was from an 18th Century bucket shop in Boston, Massachusetts. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
David
In 1998, I worked for a shop in Cambridge (England) which sold Scottish clothing, mostly quite good quality expensive stuff, and mostly to Japanese and American tourists. We had a computer in the corner of the shop into which you could type your surname and it told you to which "clan" tartan you were entitled... you could then spend a few hundred pounds on kilts, scarves, badges etc. matching your "clan".
I'm afraid that mostly operated along the same lines :)
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Basically, I've always assumed it's all a bit of an ego-trip combined with a con-trick!!
I know of one very simple coat of arms associated with my surname (and usually, with heraldry, the simpler it is, the older it is) and another one, which uses the first elaborately quartered with God only knows what, which crops up with monotonous regularity online, usually attached to American trees (sorry: there we go again) - and yet I know quite firmly that in MY direct line there never has been a person who has had a Grant of Arms - and one namesake and only distant relative late 19th / early 20th C, who has been entitled to bear Arms!!
It makes me quite proud that there's "Nowt noble" about my family history!
As said earlier - those firms are in it to make money, and it's really looked on by many as quite sad to sport a coat of arms in any form to which you have no true title. I suppose it's a bit like all the people diligently wearing tartan (19th cent invention really) when tourists in Scotland, who have hopped into a "House of Tartan" or similar, and been flogged the whole kit "related" to their surname! Amusing, but not for real.
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There are three legal ways to acquire a "Coat of Arms" in England and Wales.
The first and oldest way is to simply design and assume the Achievement this is the way the first "Coat of Arms" came into existence and is still a legal way to gain them.
Note, as with all new "Arms" they must be a new design not a copy or adaption of an existing Achievement.
The second and indeed second oldest way is by Royal Warrant or Grant.
The monarch being in control of all heraldry in England & Wales is entitled to grant "Arms" as she/he wishes.
The third and most recent method is by a Herald of the College of Arms.
These newbies to the scene grant "Arms" in the name of the monarch so that she/he may concentrate on more important matters of state. ;)
Cheers
Guy
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Lovely reply. I can just imagine some really modern images!
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The first and oldest way is to simply design and assume the Achievement this is the way the first "Coat of Arms" came into existence and is still a legal way to gain them.
Where did you come by that particular legal nugget...? My understanding was that, technically, apart from inheriting them, they could only be granted by the Crown or the College of Arms or otherwise be acknowledged by the College (eg by prescription). The other problem would be finding out if the design has already been used: even the College of Arms, although no doubt extensive, doesn't have a comprehensive record of all of the arms ever used (in England and Wales).
Of course, "legal" is a bit ambiguous here (at the risk of repeating a previous post of mine). While technically correct that it's illegal to assume arms to which you're not entitled, in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, it's neither a criminal nor civil offence, but a chivalric offence - and the Court of Chivalry hasn't existed since 1737, in part precisely because it lacked comprehensive records and was open to challenge (except for one case in the 1950s, which today would have been covered by modern legislation). Certainly, the legal basis on which to challenge a private individual's use of arms is today as good as non-existent, which undermines the notion of a "right" - rights are worthless if unenforceable, however much you've spent with the College of Arms or however nice that parchment looks.
The coats of arms used by local authorities are interesting in that respect - although they have to be granted by the College of Arms, they're also protected legally by local government legislation in the 1990s, so strongly suggesting that a grant from the College of Arms isn't enough to enforce their legal right. There was a case not too long ago in Kent where a local authority was forced to change their arms because they'd wrongfully "inherited" them from a previous authority that no longer exists - even the local football team had to change their shirts because of that.
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Where did you come by that particular legal nugget...? My understanding was that, technically, apart from inheriting them, they could only be granted by the Crown or the College of Arms or otherwise be acknowledged by the College (eg by prescription). The other problem would be finding out if the design has already been used: even the College of Arms, although no doubt extensive, doesn't have a comprehensive record of all of the arms ever used (in England and Wales).
Snip
Perhaps the most readily available proof that individuals could assume “Arms” comes in the form of the 16th century Visitations.
The Visitations were the means to enable Heralds to tour the country and record correctly assumed “Arms” and destroy “Arms” that were unlawfully usurped borne or taken by any person.
The simple fact that the heralds were to record correctly assumed “Arms” shows that at that time it was recognised that gentlemen could assume “Arms”
The simple modern explanation is under Common Law if a person has held a right “from time immemorial” which currently means for the last 20 years or against the Crown 30 years they cannot be impeached.
In other words if a person has assumed unique “Arms” and is not challenged within 30 years Her Majesty the Queen may not challenge them and her Heralds are obliged to record them.
The case against the assumption of “Arms” seems to stem from a writ from Henry I to various sheriffs in 1418. The fact that the writ was a military one and limited to the specific instance has been ignored.
There is a good argument in favour of assumed “Arms” in the Ancestor (volume VII pages 113-144 : volume IX pages 214-224 : volume X pages 52-69)
Cheers
Guy
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@ThrelfallYorky
For a modern coat of arms see the British Computer Society.
Those items in the chief are pieces of computer memory :-)
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I've just looked that Society up - I could just about recognise the imagery depicted! I'm sure there must be some others out there that are modern in their imagery, but I've never seen any.
I do enjoy seeing how people sport their (often spurious) coats of arms etc. One chap had a blazer badge made up, that must have cost him.
It's much like the queries we so often see on here that say something like "I just know I am related to the Swat family of Tudor times, and am the rightful Duke of Swat, we have exactly the same surname, and just like them I was born in England, only in the south west rather than the North East. I have seen the Swat family tree, when i went round Swat Castle, now a National Trust Property, but for some reason I can't find any of my relatives on it, and would like someone to find me the link to my parents so I can claim the castle ...."
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In my defence, can I say:
My avatar was in use by John Garrad in the 1700's. He died without issue, and the arms no longer used! ;D ;D
Further - I only use it on RootsChat :D
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Just for fun on the subject of modern items...
I was born in wales and used to debug computer systems for a living :-)
I think I obeyed the colour/metal rules ok ;-)
If I add a motto it will probably be the famous 'nil carborundum'
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- Again: I like it!
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I'm sure there must be some others out there that are modern in their imagery, but I've never seen any.
The arms if the British Interplanetary Society (...anyone?) are meant to be based on a stylised picture of a spaceship.
http://www.bis-space.com/what-we-do/the-british-interplanetary-society/the-bis-coat-of-arms (http://www.bis-space.com/what-we-do/the-british-interplanetary-society/the-bis-coat-of-arms)
Not sure I'd have worked that out if they hadn't told me.
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How about a hydro-carbon molecule?
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Or this recent grant by the College of Arms, featuring 35mm film, and guitar necks in the crest?!
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....................................................................In addition, the company you provided the link for are American! WTF do Americans know about English Heraldry?...................
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Sat giggling after reading that.
Frank.
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I'm really enjoying all these up-to-date examples of Heraldry!
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But G O K how one does the blazon for some of them ....
or explosion vert 35mm film entwined proper ?
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But G O K how one does the blazon for some of them ....
or explosion vert 35mm film entwined proper ?
Easy!
Or a concentric Gurges dancetty throughout Vert over all two Loops of 35-millimetre Film one issuant in chief and in the dexter interlaced with one issuant in the sinister and in base proper.
And the Crest:
Within a Circlet of Guitar Necks and Headstocks the latter upwards Or stringed and pegged Argent a Pure Spanish Horse salient Argent unguled Or.
I quite like the Arms granted to Terry Pratchett:
http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/news-grants/grants/item/39-sir-terence-david-john-pratchett
More recent grants of arms here:
http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/news-grants/grants
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More recent grants of arms here:
http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/news-grants/grants
Interesting to see my employer's arms on the third page of recent grants.
http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/news-grants/grants/item/22-university-of-lincoln (http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/news-grants/grants/item/22-university-of-lincoln)
There's a modern(ish) element to the badge, if not the arms themselves - a cog (sorry, "Annulet embattled on the outer edge") to represent the engineering history of the city of Lincoln.
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Love the 'dancetty' :-)