RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Westmeath => Topic started by: BBen on Thursday 02 October 14 19:50 BST (UK)
-
Can Irish experts help please? I have traced my 2nd GG grandmother Kathleen Mary Byrne back to Athlone. She is the 3rd daughter of Edward Byrne resident in Sallow Grove.Edward was possibly a JP or Coroner. I have found an Edward Byrne resident in Sallowgrove 1841 this is from from Lord Morpeths roll of honour. I have also found one other daughter Sophia b 1853 Roscommon. Also in the mix is Charles Augustus Byrne b 1847 died Sallow Grove Athlone 1899. Getting really confused. ???
Many thanks
Bryan
-
Hi There
Who was Edward Byrne's wife ?
Tara
-
Help that you were given on ancestry (including Shane Wilson), whom I'm pretty sure if he didn't find anything then you'd be hard pushed to get a better expert than him.
Did you buy the record that was suggested to you ?
Did you get the mother's full name ?
PLEASE give as much information as you have as otherwise we can't help !
Tara
-
Second marriage I take it !
http://www.connectedhistories.org/Search_results.aspx?pc=Theddingworth&ct=n&st=60
What was his occupation on English census ?
Tara
-
Daughter's Marriage !
http://www.GenesReunited.co.uk/searchbna/results?memberlastsubclass=none&searchhistorykey=0&keywords=fanny%20belville&county=leicestershire,%20england
Tara
-
findmypast.ie has 26 petty sessions records where Edward Byrne of Sallygrove (Name variation that Shane Wilson gave you) is mentioned.
Tara
-
HUM ???
I can see an 1843 where Edward Byrne Esq Sallygrove Athlone was listed as a REPEAL ARBITRATOR.
Googling is not giving me an exact definition of this ???
Tara
-
Possibilites Here !
http://www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/hints-and-hits-irish-caricature-and-the-trial-of-daniel-oconnell-1843-4/
Tara
-
3rd September 1863 Edward Byrne of Sallowgrove, Athlone was appointed to the Commision of the Peace for County Roscommon.
So, he married in England in April 1863 and then returned to Ireland !
Tara
-
Edward's 4th daughter Annie Mary married a Patrick Cody of Ballinasloe in 1875!
Tara
-
Tara,
many sincere thanks for your help. Yes, I did appreciate the help and advice offered by Shane Wilson & Burgess Donnelly on Ancestry and purchased a subscription to Rootsireland.ie. I got a bit further yesterday but am still bit confused. I believe there were 2 Edward Byrnes, one born 1805 married to a Catherine Kelly and his son born 1841, possibly the son that married Emma Lovell. I am just about to trawl through your findings to see if they tie up.
Bryan
-
Byrne's House Sallowgrove mentioned here.
Please remember that Athlone borders counties Roscommon AND Westmeath !
http://www.westmeathindependent.ie/news/schools/articles/2012/07/11/4011353-historical-walk-in-brideswell-/
Tara
-
Edward Senior is obviously the Commission of the Peace due to the timeline.
Can you explain why you are confused ???
Tara
-
Is it possibly Edward Junior whom married in April 1863 in England ?
Tara
-
I was confused because I originally could not tie the dates together for Edward Byrne, however, if there were two EBs!
I have also now found other Children - Sophia, Joseph Frederick and Elizabeth thanks to the Rootsireland.ie site. It all fits as baptisms were at Ballybay. I haven't found Annie Mary yet but will keep looking. I am also unsure of a Charles Augustus Byrne who dies Sallow Grove in 1899 death is reported by a Lily Byrne but records state his father was John Byrne & Bridgid Keveny. Possibly a nephew of Edward Byrne senior.
Thanks
Bryan
-
It's very possible that John and Edward were brothers as both are listed in what is a very small townland.
Although, I'm always cautious making this presumption given the fact that Byrne is SUCH a common surname.
Have you used the findmypast.ie site yet ?
Tara
-
Do you have the new subscription for rootsireland ?
If so, given the fact that you can look up to 1000 records I would recommend that you get the records for John Byrne (possible brother of William).
Try to see if there is any naming patterns in the children of these two men as it will help give leads as to possible parent's names for Edward.
Tara
-
Tara
no, I have not used findmypast.ie yet. I will have a look.
Thanks
Bryan
-
I am on a roll, I think Edward seniors parents might have been Patrick Byrne & Mary Shea
Bryan
-
It's €10 Euro for a one months subscription.
There are the articles on it that I referred to earlier.
There are also LOTS of Petty Sessions where the Byrne's of Sallygrove are mentioned.
You may not necessarily get back further with your tree, you will certainly get lots of documents from it to bring Edward to life !
Tara
-
Tara
Thanks very much for your help ;D, I will get a subscription, love to see the documents!
-
This book looks SUPER interesting and I'm SURE there are references to your family in it !
http://books.google.ie/books?id=J4MiAQAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=edward+byrne
Tara
-
Gosh,
There are still Byrne's there !
RIP
http://www.rip.ie/showdn.php?dn=234299
Tara
-
Tara
You are the star that keeps giving :)
Bryan
-
Blush :o
Tara
-
Sorry, I missed that post re possible parents for Edward !
Where did you get those names ?
Tara
-
Is this the Charles that you referred to ?
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014912/005014912_00033.pdf
Tara
-
Edward Byrne b1805
Aug
Killalon Clonmellon Co Westmeath
Sponsors James Flood & Catherine Levy
1828
20 Aug
Age: 23
St Peters Athlone Roman Catholic
Marriage to Catherine Kelly witnesses Thomas Flood & Mary Anne Dillion
-
Hiya ~ that's super !
Is that all part of the one record ?
If so where are the parent's names ?
Tara
-
Charles' civil death record should you ever wish to get it !
Name: Charles Augustus Byrne
Date: Jul-Aug-Sep 1899
Death Age: 52
District: Athlone
Volume: 3
Page: 11
Tara
-
Yes that is Charles!
-
Tara
2 records I just did not copy and paste them onto my Ancestry tree, father and mother definitely Patrick and Mary Shea
http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/3351010/family?fpid=24655025874
Bryan
-
Some records just in case !
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F52F-NXP
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F52F-D4L
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F52F-DS6
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F52F-TG8
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5LM-X2K
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5LM-19B
Tara
-
Can you just clarify though where you got the parent's names from !
It's just that naming patterns at the time would dictate that Edward's first son then should have been called Patrick.
I KNOW there were exceptions to this but it's still a good rule of thumb.
Byrne / Shea are a common variation BUT presuming that Edward and John were brothers and John Byrne was also an ESQ I found this records which MAY throw a spanner in the works.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NW9Y-37M
Tara
-
Tara
The names came from Edwards 1805 birth record.
thanks
Bryan
-
No Ben,
I'm worried that you found A birth record for AN Edward Byrne and are presuming that it's YOUR EDWARD !
Can you explain how you are SO SURE that this is one and the same person ?!
Tara
-
Tara,
I am not absolutely sure , however I searched all Edward Byrne births in both Roscommon & Westmeath during feasible timeframes. Possible I have made an assumption. I am just glad I have got Edward nailed, the children confirm it with baptisms in Ballybay! Many sincere thanks for all of your help.
Thanks
Bryan
-
Sorry to shatter your dreams Bryan (sorry for my last typo)
. . . But my gut instinct is saying that those are NOT Edward's parents.
From what I can gather Killtomb and Camma records are only available from 1835.
I would WELL imagine that Edward was from this parish SO you will NOT find his baptism.
Hope that makes sense !
Tara
-
Tara
oh well, you win some you lose some. I have got further in the last two days than the last 5 years! I am more interested in bringing Edward to life as you say. I will definitely get hold of those Sallow Grove documents, I can't thank you enough !!!!! :-*
Bryan
-
Hopefully I was of SOME use Bryan.
I really do think that there is more OUT THERE on this family and will just take some time and patience.
I think a lot of working sidewards ~ getting as much info together on the children of Edward & Catherine; getting as much info on John Byrne Esq (the possible brother) will hopefully yield results.
Tara
-
BTW Do you understand Edward's occupation !?
Sorry if you do already ;D
Just incase not ~
Justices of the peace existed in Ireland prior to 1922, sitting in a bench under the supervision of resident magistrates at petty sessions to try minor offences summarily, and with a county court judge (in his capacity of chairman of quarter sessions) and jury to try more serious offences at quarter sessions.
Basically Edward was a farmer whom was obviously well respected in his area.
He would have been elected by the locals to hold the position.
He would have continued as a farmer but would had mainly gone to local petty session to help in local minor crimes.
As we (Ireland) were under British rule at the time the title of Esquire became an honor that could be conferred by the Crown, and by custom the holders of certain offices (such as barristers, justices of the peace, and higher officer ranks in the armed services) were deemed to be Esquires.
Tara
-
Was there ever any mention of where / when Edward died ?
I'm surprised that a JP Farmer hasn't left a will ???
I don't see him on the 1858 - 1922 Irish Wills !
Tara
-
What Byrne names do you have on Edward's children's baptisms, ie The Godparents ?
Tara
-
Tara
Thanks for the explanation, I did not understand the J.P. thing! The children do marry into well to do families in England. I can not find Edwards death either in Ireland or England
Elizabeth: Dennis Browne & Ann Marie Byrne
Edward Jr: Martin Kelly & Anne Byrne
Joseph Frederick: Daniel & Elizabeth Byrne
Olivia: Bernard Byrne & Rose Byrne
Charles (son of John) Patrick Conlon & Helen Kean
Bryan
-
LOTS of Byrnes there to follow up on.
The Daniel and the Bernard interest me as I'm SURE I saw something on them.
OH YES, Daniel in that googlebooks.
Tara
-
Edward Byrne Esq was still alive and in Sallygrove in 1866 as there is a very cute document on findmypast of him getting a Dog Licence !
Our civil registration began in 1864 so Edward's death MUST be there. There are always ones that weren't registered but usually those with social standing WOULD have been registered.
Have you gotten any possible death records ?
Tara
-
Tara
Nothing I can't find anything in Ireland or England ???
Bryan
-
I'm sure that it's the location that is causing the issue.
I have seen Athlone deaths recorded in Westmeath, Roscommon, Galway & Offaly.
It's just the Athlone is the designated Center of Ireland and is close to sooo many counties.
The nearest good matches I'm getting are in Tullamore District which is not TOOO bad but too early to speculate.
Tara
-
I think this family is CRUCIAL.
I'm pretty sure that they are the link !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Roscommon/Kilcar/Coolagarry/1654359/
Tara
-
Them again in 1911 !
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Roscommon/Kilcar/Coolagarry/776350/
Tara
-
Tara
I think Elizabeth A is the wife of John Byrne (father of Charles Augustus Byrne)
-
Is she not the WIDOW of CHARLES ?
John's wife would have been born about 1810 !!!!!!!!!!!!
Tara
-
OK ANOTHER Great Lead (even if I DOOOO say so myself)
We know there was a Bernard Byrne in the family (BTW Bernard / Bryan were interchangeable in this part of Ireland at the time)
WELL, I've found a Bernard Byrne in our correct location on The Tithes !
http://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/reels/tab//004587411/004587411_00231.pdf
Tara
-
Bernard Byrne was also an ESQ
So, I think this is all adding up to DEFO being your family in that google books (exciting)
Tara
-
WOWZERS
Look who is on this . . . . .
http://www.dippam.ac.uk/eppi/documents/19790/page/539547
Tara
-
Tara
I am getting even more confused. I am an amateur at this!
Bryan
-
HA
No Charles was born in 1847, so this family are correct to be his widow and children.
Tara
-
In 1881 Charles married Elizabeth A Jones in DUBLIN.
Their children are on rootsireland so you should get them to get some leads.
BTW I have a sneaky suspicion that Charles is actually the son of EDWARD.
I just need some proof.
Tara
-
Charles' first daughter called Catherine ~ first son called Edward.
I'm 99% there that Charles is defo the son of Edward Byrne and Catherine Kelly !!!!!!!!!!!
Tara
-
FIRST DAUGHTER'S GODMOTHER WAS OLIVIA BYRNE
ie the daughter of Edward Byrne.
Well, what do you think, I'm SUREEEEEEEEEEE I'm right !!!!
Tara
-
BTW
That earlier Charles Byrne that you found born to a John Byrne IS NOT the correct person.
That's NOT the correct parish !!!!
I'm sure that YOUR Charles Byrne is on ifhf but probably mistranscribed.
IF we can't find out more about Charles to PROVE that he is the son of Edward on the sites that you currently have access to then you HAVE to get the civil marriage record for Charles. It will only cost €4 but will prove it for sure !
Tara
-
ARGGGGHHH
Father Not Mentioned
GRRRRRRRRRRRRR >:(
Tara
-
Tara
They all seem to be marrying people from Leicestershire. Edward Byrne Jr marries Emma Lovell from Leicestershire, Catherine Mary Byrne marries Hiram Edwards from Leicestershire and Elizabeth Jones is from Leicestershire!
Charles' first daughter called Catherine ~ first son called Edward.
I'm 99% there that Charles is defo the son of Edward Byrne and Catherine Kelly !!!!!!!!!!!
Tara
Did you find birth records for Catherine & Edward children of Charles?
Bryan
-
I wonder was their Mum Catherine Kelly possibly from there ?
Anyway, how are you feeling about Charles being the son of Edward ?
Tara
-
Tara,
It fits, I think it was probably mis transcribed
-
Those baptisms are on rootsireland
Put in Charles Byrne and then Jones against the Mum's maiden name and they shall come up for you !
Tara
-
Tara
Many thanks again for your help, I am up at 5am for work so will have to leave it here for tonight. More detective work for me tomorrow!
Bryan
-
No Probs
I think I have come to the end of the line anyway.
Enjoy piecing it all together.
Enjoy Work ;)
Tara
-
I am researching the Edwards family for my Dad's Cousin who married John Edwards a descendant of Hiram Edwards.
One bit of information that may help is that the inscriptions on the back of the family coat of arms has Elizabeth Ann Jones as the daughter of Louisa Edwards & John James Jones. I have yet to find any info on her just her brother William Henry and sister Fanny Edwards Jones.
Louisa is Hiram's sister so its very possible Elizabeth Ann Jones married a relative of her Aunt Catherine Mary Byrne. It says Hiram married Catherine Mary (Kate) Byrne third daughter of Edward Byrne J.P. of Sallow Snova, county Roscommon.
Really glad to have found this thread..
Gary
-
Also about the Lovell Connection, Hiram's mother is Elizabeth Cox and she has a brother Thomas White Cox who married Catherine Lovell. Emma must be related to her.
-
Found Charles Byrne on Familysearch.org baptized in 1842 to Edward Byrne & Catherine Shelly...Think this is the correct one..Typo is Shelly instead of Kelly.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5LM-LLY
Regards
Gary
-
Hi Gary,
I have done quite a lot of work here. Don't know if you are on Ancestry but my tree is public. Hiram was my 2nd great grandfather.
Thanks Bryan
-
Harry Francis is my grandfather son of Elizabeth (coolgarry Kilcar)
-
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Roscommon/Kilcar/Coolagarry/1654359/
My Grandfather is Harry Francis Byrne named in this census.