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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: spades on Friday 03 October 14 02:20 BST (UK)
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Hi Eeveryone,
I'm a bit stumped with this lass.
Mary PHILLIP emigrated to New Zealand prior to 1870. In 1875, as the widowed Mary TURNBULL, she married Elijah VINCENT at the mining town of Greenstone, Westland.
In 1876 their first child, Ann Adeline Elizabeth VINCENT was born at Greenstone. Mary, aged 41, listed her place of birth as [illegible] Argyle, Scotland.
Mary died at Hokitika, Westland in October 1877 of heart disease. She was born at [illegible], Scotland and had lived 8 years in New Zealand. Her parents were listed as James PHILLIP, a contractor, and Mary Phillip formerly (née) CAMERON.
Can anyone help me pin down her place of birth, please?
I wonder if she married Mr TURNBULL in Scotland, as I can't find a New Zealand marriage. I'd be grateful if anyone can solve that little mystery as well. :)
Spades
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Hi, Just joined roots chat and saw that a few years back you had an interest in the Perriman family of Dunedin, New Zealand. I am a descendant living in Dunedin and just wondered if you had got all you needed.
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Hi Natwil, and welcome to RootsChat. :)
I had to use the search function to find it, but you must be referring to my Scavenger Hunt topic of 2011. The alternative spelling was PERRYMAN.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=565704.0
I don't have any connection with the family, I was only interested in the background to the original newspaper article.
Spades
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Hi Spades-
Familysearch have a Mary Phillips marrying a Thomas Turnbull at Barony, Lanarkshire on 16 Aug 1853.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTTJ-L4T
Maybe worth looking at?
I know it's not Argyll, but so many communities/families moved during that period to Glasgow etc.
Looby :)
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Hi Loobylooayr,
Thanks for that record. It might well be her but as yet I have no way of proving it.
Spades
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Hi spades
Is this a possible for her in 1851 ~
Condorrat, Cumbernauld
James Philips, 43, Manager Whinstone Quarry, b. Aberdeenshire
Isabell, w, 38, b. Inverary, Argyll
Mary, d, 16, house servant, b. do
plus four other children
In 1841:
Goatfield, Glassary, Argyll
James Phillips, 32, b. Scotland
Issabella, 28, b. do
Mary, 6, b. Argyll
Issabella, 2. b. do
Nk, (female), under 1 year, b. do
Mother's name is wrong but as you know death certs are notorious for such errors.
The 1851 might fit with the 1853 Barony marriage.
Gadget
PS - the marriage entry doesn't have much info - I think it says that her brother resided in Barony :-\
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An interesting family in Argyll in 1861 that might fit:
? quarry*, Duror, Argyll
James Phillips, 53, stone dresser , b. Aberdeenshire
Mary, 38, b. Cumbernauld
Ada, 12, b. Kirkintilloch
Ann, 6, b. Liverpool
James, , b. do
Charles, 3, b. Argyllshire
Janet, 1, b. do
If Isabella died and James remarried, this might explain mother's name.
Gadget
* possibly Ballachulish
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Charles is registered as Charles Simm Philips at Ardchattan in 1858.
There is a marriage in Liverpool in Dec q, 1854 for a James Phillips - a Mary Ann Simm is on the same page.
Added - just checked the Liverpool register - this was not the couple
Need a death for Isabella 1851-1854
Gadget
???
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYT1-KRX
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Following on from Gadgets finds of the Phillips family -
Gilbert Phillips son of James and Isabella marries at Duror, Argyll on 13th Feb 1861 -
Isabella's maiden name on marriage certificate is Dewar :-\
James's occupation is Quarrier of Granite ?? (then a word I can't decipher)
Looby :)
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Hi Looby
I typed this out and then felt guilty cos husband was digging in garden and I was doing this - so I up and left to help! Anyway, this is what I found:
Have traced a son of James and Mary - Gilbert b.c. 1842, Argyll . He was informant on Charles birth cert and James' death cert (1867 - which just says 'married'). He married in Duror in 1861. The record shows his parents as James Phillips, Quarrier of granite and Isabella m.s Dewar (dec)
Gilbert and Catherine were in Virginia in 1880 census with 7 children.
Gadget
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This might well be where the Cameron came from:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYZS-SF8
Isabella's mother was a Mary Cameron
Gadget
PS - I'm sure I saw a ref to the birth of a son Duncan -
in 1851 Census:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VYYT-GCL
in 1861 census:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VB75-19B
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And here's James Phil(li)p* bpt with father Gilbert!
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBB1-LLN
Really good example of trad naming convention ~
Mary 1835
Gilbert 1842
Duncan 1844
Gadget
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Well done Gadget,
I wasn't sure about this being the correct Mary when I found her mother to be Isabella Dewar. But having a maternal granny called Mary Cameron is quite compelling evidence to suggest this is the right track. Easy to see when poor Mary died how the informant of her death could have got details wrong.
Wonder if Mary and Mr.Turnbull had any children? I'm wondering if Mary maybe married in England? :-\ Her father obviously moved there for a short time in the 1850s for him to remarry and have a daughter in Liverpool.
Looby :)
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I've had a quick look for Turnbull marriages in England, Looby, but so far your Barony one is the only one that seems to fit.
The cert says that Thomas was a carter. Mary would have been 17 ish but no brother that I can find was living in Barony at the time - maybe her mother had died and the family had dispersed and she just told the minister that :-\
Gadget
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for all the information.
It's very hard to interpret the cramped writing on one certificate and faint writing on the other (I have to hold it up to bright light to see the text) but the last three letters of her place of birth appear to end in '...ara' or '...ary'. The word length is six or seven letters.
Spades
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Hi everyone,
Thanks for all the information.
It's very hard to interpret the cramped writing on one certificate and faint writing on the other (I have to hold it up to bright light to see the text) but the last three letters of her place of birth appear to end in '...ara' or '...ary'. The word length is six or seven letters.
Spades
Could be Inverary or Glassary?
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Oo, on the birth certificate it could be....yes. ;D ;D
Certainly no 'G''s or esses.
On her death certificate the place seems to read as 'Inamara'. There is no 'y' at the end.'
But it might be' Inverara' now that I have Inverary.
Spades
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Can't seem to find any other marriage for a Mary Phillips to a Turnbull that the one at Barony but I'm not convinced that's your girl :-\
When Mary arrived in New Zealand was she on her own? No other children?
If she was having a first baby in her 40s you would have thought she would name her after family.
The Mary from Argyll that has been found did have a sister called Ann and a sister who on the 1851 Census is called Adbyron ( haven't seen original /think the transcriber has had a problem with this name). Can't find a OPR for this baby, but she seems to be known thereafter as Ada. Long shot, I know but Mary's daughter is Ann and her next name is Adeline.....mmm....makes me wonder about Adbyron ??
Anyway to bed!!! zzzzzzzzzzzz
Looby :)
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Thanks Looby and Gadget,
To have gained her place of birth is a major victory on its own, so I'm very happy. ;D
At this stage I know nothing else about Mary PHILLIP/S apart from her marriage, mother of Ann Adeline, and death. I'll work on it.
Spades
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Hi there,
I'm trying to find the paternal father of Louis Clyne, b. Louis Hume 1915, Dunedin, NZ to Eliza Mary Hume, father unknown. He was given up for adoption and lived with Robert and Elizabeth Vincent (nee Murdoch) in Mosgiel, Dunedin, his surname seemed to have been changed from "Louis Hume" to "Louis Vincent" according to the East Taieri school records in 1921. When Elizabeth Vincent became ill, he was placed in the care of Elizabeth's sister, Martha and John Riach in 1923 and then adopted out two years later in 1925 to Alexander and Mary Clyne of Oamaru, NZ.
In looking at the background information on Robert Vincent, his death certificate lists his place of birth as Kumara, Westland, NZ abt. 1878 and his parents, Elijah Vincent and Mary Vincent (nee Turnbull), however, I can't locate a birth record for Robert Vincent. I'm wondering if he was adopted? There is a birth record for Ann Adeline Elizabeth Vincent, b. 1876 to Elijah and Mary Vincent but any further information that anyone has would be much appreciated as I have hit a brick wall regarding Robert Vincent?
Cheers Kristy :)
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Hi Kristy, and welcome to RootsChat :) :)
You've just solved my long-standing puzzle about the identity of the Louis HUME mentioned in the 1915 will of Robert VINCENT! Many thanks!
I can provide you with information on Robert VINCENT and his parents. I suspect that rather than being adopted, his birth was just not registered by his parents.
If you can reply twice more to this topic, just a couple of smileys will do, I can send you information via the Personal Message (PM) facility. You need to have made at least two posts to activate it.
Spades
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Hi Spades, wow this is wonderful news, I look forward to chatting more :)
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:)
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Thanks Kristy,
I’ll be in touch tomorrow.
Spades
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PM sent.
Spades