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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: koo_mck on Sunday 05 October 14 07:12 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I was wondering if someone could please help me find the birth certificate (or point me in the direction) for "Marianne Dorothea Rebecca MacDonel" who was born in 1819 in Hambury, Finsbury, Germany. I know her father's name was John, but I have no other details for her except for her marriage to Edward Sugden Price in Lambeth, London in 1844.
Thank you for your help.
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Hi Koo, So sorry I hadn't seen you message a few years ago when you posted it. If you are still researching Marianne McDonald and Edward Sugden Price, I'd love to make contact, as I too cannot find her birth records - but I'm descended from this family.
Looking for any new "cousins" or anyone who can help.
Patricia.
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Hello Patricia,
Welcome to RootsChat.
I was thinking that you would be struggling to move forward here, but I think I have found a very good lead for you.
Sophia Elise Therese Macdonel died in St. Pauli, Hamburg on 26 Feb 1890 at the age of 70 years and 11 months. She was unmarried and the daughter of John Macdonel, a dealer in fashionable clothes (Modehändler), and Catharina Margaretha born Holtz.
The Hamburg address books of 1818-20 records that John Macdonel, Modehandlung, at Krayenkamp no. 72
http://agora.sub.uni-hamburg.de/subhh-adress/digbib/view?did=c1:13382&sdid=c1:13519&hit=3 (http://agora.sub.uni-hamburg.de/subhh-adress/digbib/view?did=c1:13382&sdid=c1:13519&hit=3)
Moving forward to 1844, we have John Macdonel running a Wein- und Kaffehaus (wine and coffee house) at Kielerstrasse no. 60 in St. Pauli.
http://agora.sub.uni-hamburg.de/subhh-adress/digbib/view?did=c1:169563&p=193&z=150 (http://agora.sub.uni-hamburg.de/subhh-adress/digbib/view?did=c1:169563&p=193&z=150)
I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that that was one and the same John Macdonel, the only one in the Hamburg address books.
Krayenkamp runs behind the St. Michaelis church - a protestant church. The parish registers (Kirchenbücher) are held in the Hamburg State Archives http://www.hamburg.de/bkm/benutzung/5017640/englisch-benutzung/ (http://www.hamburg.de/bkm/benutzung/5017640/englisch-benutzung/)
Justin
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WOW Justin,
This certainly looks VERY interesting. THANK YOU so much.
If it is indeed my family, then Sophia would be Maria Dorothea Rebecca MacDonel's sister. She would have been born about 2-3 years after Maria (who was known as Marian for most of her life).
It's interesting that on Maria's Marriage Certificate to Edward Sugden Price in England in 1844, her father John is listed as a "Publican". I had always assumed he had returned to London to run such an establishment. However, it seems he may have still been in Germany, running such a house.
My goodness, after 20 years of searching for her family ("Struggling" is an understatement) ............. you may have answered my prayers. Now I'll have to ask my good friend Mr. Google to translate all the sites you have so willingly provided. It looks like I have a lot of work ahead of me - not that I mind as that's what keeps this old brain ticking.
(I had finally ascertained -guessed- that her mother was "Ellen" as she was the only child of the marriage whom I couldn't connect to a family member, but it looks as though my supposition may have been wrong - but I don't mind if I can prove that Catharina is indeed her mother.)
Many, many thanks, as I really appreciate your prompt reply.
Patricia in Sydney, Australia.
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Hello again Patricia,
I couldn't resist doing a few more searches in the Hamburg address books.
John disappears from the mid-1820s to mid-1830s (I haven't checked every year). However, he was listed in 1838 and 1840 at the "Tavern Royal Victoria" Zeughausmarkt 20.
http://agora.sub.uni-hamburg.de/subhh-adress/digbib/view?did=c1:378511&sdid=c1:378642&hit=15 (http://agora.sub.uni-hamburg.de/subhh-adress/digbib/view?did=c1:378511&sdid=c1:378642&hit=15)
Then in 1841 at "The Royal Victoria Tavern", Stubenhuk 32.
This must have been Maria(n)'s father.
Have fun. Justin
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Thanks again Justin,
Just as a "personal" question: Do you read and understand German? or like myself do you depend on a "google translate".
Having just woken the following morning and about to begin a day of research, I'm wondering (in advance) how hard it's going to be for me.
Now that I've got the sites you've listed I also want to look for Marian's future husband (Edward Sugden Price) as I have a feeling he was working in Germany when he met her.
Anyway, just a thought as I step into unknown waters, as to what I'll be able to understand.
Once again, thank you so much for your interest in helping me with this frustrating family.
Kindest regards,
Patricia
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Schönen guten Morgen!
I lived and worked in Germany for nearly ten years, so I do have that advantage of a very good command of the language. I have also been researching my own ancestry from Germany for over 15 years and am very familiar with the old handwriting styles. A branch of my family had a presence in Hamburg for over a century.
However, you are not going to need much German to search through the Hamburg address books.
Here is the introductory page in English:
http://agora.sub.uni-hamburg.de/subhh-adress/digbib/start-en (http://agora.sub.uni-hamburg.de/subhh-adress/digbib/start-en)
There are several people here in RC that are able and willing to lend a helping hand with German. If you get stuck, just ask :)
Justin
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Thank you once again Justin,
I really appreciate the new link as Google in unable to translate the Directories.
The Introductory page will make a big difference. THANK YOU again.
Patricia.
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Hi Patricia
the person who first posted "koo_mck", has a private family tree on Ancestry.
Her name is Kate McKenzie Redman.
To view be able to view her tree you need to contact her through an Ancestry subscription.
https://www.ancestry.de/connect/Profile/0230c458-0006-0000-0000-000000000000
If you need help contacting her let me know.
Dave
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Oh Dave,
If only I had realised where I'd seen that name before !!
It is a pseudonym for my 3rd Cousin's niece - and she got all her information from ME !!! (She has only recently got married and changed her profile to reflect her married name). I haven't looked at her tree, because we chat regularly - and as a matter of fact I'll be seeing her this week. I was quite excited that I'd be able to tell her the latest news of what "Justin" has passed on to me.
Oh well, what a small world !!!! However I had just been telling another friend what a wonderful world our "Genealogy Family" is (with everyone helping each other), and you have just doubly proven it to me. (First Justin, then yourself).
Thank you so much, I really appreciate your input. (Funny as it's turned out to be).
My kindest regards
Patricia.
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Hi Patricia
it´s a small world.
Justin did some good work there.
If you let me know what info, docs, certs, etc. you have i´ll see if i can find any additional info.
Saves doing things twice.
Dave
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WOW Dave, what a wonderful gesture. Thank you for the offer.
Although unless you too can understand German I've probably got all the English records possible. I've been researching this family for close to 20 years.
I have Maria MacDonel & Edward Sugden Price's Marriage certificate (which is where I first knew of her being born in Germany. I also have all their English Census records - except cannot find either of them in 1841 - prior to their marriage. Thus I have always suspected (along with old family folk-lore) that Edward may have been working in Germany too. (He was an Milner/Engineer working in the Mills in England after their marriage). He had been born in Yorkshire in 1810 and I have his Baptism record. (I also have most of their children's birth certificates - or sufficient info to "prove" their relationship). I have recently found a "missing" son's family in Canada - and when they didn't believe me I proved it by us all taking a DNA test !!
Just as an aside, Maria and Edward's eldest son (John) ran away from home when he was about 12 or 13, stowed away, joined the Merchant Navy, jumped ship, was gaoled, re-deployed on a ship to Australia, jumped ship again, changed his name, went "exploring" with a well known Explorer in Queensland, married Thrice (bigamously) and lived happily ever after with my Great Grandmother. Oh yes, he was a character !!! Loved by all !!!
So you can see why he is my favourite Great Grandfather and I've put a lot of years into researching him. Especially as his wives didn't know he had jumped ship, let alone changed his name - and my G Grandmother was shocked beyond belief when she opened a locked "Pandora's" Box after he died - and SOME of his secrets were revealed. The OTHERS I'm still finding regularly!
Oh yes, he's lots of fun to research !!! But I've still got a long way to go to prove (or disprove) some of the stories he's told. Meanwhile, I've written the Price/Edwards story and given it to all the family for them to enjoy - including Kate !! (it's just that I can't publish it as I keep finding more and more information - like those bigamous marriages which I only found this year !!!).
But, I digress. I think we were discussing his PARENTS !!! Oh dear, I'm sure you know how easily it is to be distracted in this wonderful hobby.
Many many thanks again
Kindest regards,
Patricia.
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WOW Dave, what a wonderful gesture. Thank you for the offer.
Although unless you too can understand German I've probably got all the English records possible. .
I´ve lived in Germany for 45 years now so i´m quite familiar with the language and old handwriting.
I´ll see if i can dig up anything.
send me your e-Mail address per PM
Regards
Dave
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Hi Dave,
I've replied via PM with my email address.
Please let me know if you receive it OK.
Meanwhile, heading to bed after such an "exciting" day.
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Hello Patricia,
I came across this Macdonel file dated 1836 in the online database of the Hamburg State Archives.
https://recherche.staatsarchiv.hamburg.de/ScopeQuery5.2/detail.aspx?ID=1972225 (https://recherche.staatsarchiv.hamburg.de/ScopeQuery5.2/detail.aspx?ID=1972225)
Unfortunately, the system does not allow you to order copies of documents :(
Vormundschaft is guardianship.
There is also a file in this archive category (232-1) relating to my gggf and dated with the year he died. He left behind a widow and a 14-year-old daughter (and other children over the age of 21). Although, I haven't seen the file (perhaps it's time I did), I imagine it relates to the legal transfer of guardianship to my gggf's surviving widow.
This might then suggest that John Macdonel died in 1836. Was it perhaps a son who established (or continued running) the tavern?
It might be worth your while hiring a researcher to go to the archives.
Justin
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Thank you Justin,
You have certainly been busy on my behalf. It's very much appreciated.
The only thing I query is that Maria said her father was a Publican in 1844 (when she married) - but she may have just meant that it HAD been his occupation.
Yes, I think You're right and I may have to consider hiring someone to do the ground-work for me.
Thank you again - it's certainly worth following up.
Regards
Patricia