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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Inverness => Topic started by: irenaf on Monday 06 October 14 12:24 BST (UK)
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I am looking for some information about my grandfather's uncles James (b1840 d 1907), John Fraser b1838 in Dores and his brother Donald b1848 also Dores. Their parents were James Fraser b1802 and Mary Fraser b1810. Father James was a blacksmith in Dores as were sons James and Donald.
Son James is on the 1881 census but this is the year his father died so it is possible he just returned to help out. His death is noted on the family gravestone but I cannot track his death on Scotland's People so where did he die?
Donald seems to have disappeared and may have emigrated or joined the army he is not mentioned on the family gravestone.
John is mentioned on one census when he was at home as an assistant minister at Daviot Church He is not mentioned on the family gravestone.
They were an educated family and would be likely to have kept in touch but we have no idea what happened to the 3 sons - their brother Thomas was my ggrandfather, a master blacksmith.
I wondered what had happened to these brothers so if anyone out there has any thoughts perhaps you could get in touch. Thank you!
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Hello irenaf,
You didn't mention if you had the 1891 census:
96A Dores, Inv-shire
Wester Dores
Mary Fraser, 80
John C Fraser, dau, 49, Housekeeper
James Fraser, son 46, Blacksmith
John E Fraser, son, 48, Assistant Minister, Daviot Parish
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Thank you for getting back to me so promptly. Yes this is them (except it is Kate who is the housekeeper and there is only John C, the asst minister, the other John is McBean). Looks like James has taken over the Blacksmith business as he has an apprentice working for him. However, the 1901 I can't find him and if he didn't die until 1907 (from graveyard) where did he die?
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So that 1891 census record from A*y is a bit of a muddle? Not the first time that's happened!! It might pay to look at the original from Scotlands People. I was working from that record showing John E Fraser to be the Minister, hence:
Rev John E Fraser was alive in 1897:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01aj5/
from http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
John Edward Fraser died 1917 Dores, Inv-shire aged 78
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Ah! there is another John Edward Fraser, born Inv-shire ~1845 who was a civil engineer
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Thank you so much you have resolved a problem which has been bugging me for 2 years. I am very grateful. You are correct as I downloaded the cert from SP see attached. The interesting point is that I had the death cert all the time as his sister died the month before him in 1915. He was staying with her at the Post Office, I note that they each had gangrene from some injury. It was the E. that threw me because the birth cert did not have the E included. I note that they have down as his occupation Probationer what does that mean? Would he be training to help his sister at age 78?
So one down and 2 to go. Irene
Moderator comment - image cropped , copyright.
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Sorry, I wrote 1917 for John E Fraser’s death not 1915, but if you had the cert anyway, no precious credits lost! Probationer in regard to the church usually means that the person is not yet fully licensed as a Minister. In relation to the Post Office I’m guessing he was still learning the ropes! Odd that he and his sister both died of the same disease and so close together.
I think this may be Donald:
1851 & 1861 with parents at home
1871 with brother Thomas at Gorthlick, Dores
1881 with parents
1891 a blacksmith, lodging at 71 Castle Street, Inverness with Alexander Russell (born 1841)
1901 a blacksmith, married to Johan (b 1863 Inv) at 7 King St, Inv
1911 possible match on scotlandspeople
Also, a free digital copy of this newspaper article can be ordered from Inverness Library: http://www.ambaile.org.uk/en/newspapers/index.jsp
Law & Order > Miscellaneous
Dores - Donald Fraser, blacksmith, Dores, appeared at Inverness Sheriff Court accused of taking forceful possession of a house belonging to his brother, James Fraser
Scottish Highlander Thursday, December 1, 1887
Page/Col Ref:5C
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Probably you’re familiar with this website? It has more info on the family and 1887 court case http://frasersandatkinsons.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/fraser-children-of-dores-grow-up.html
Extracts from the 1901 Inverness-shire Directory:
James Fraser, Blacksmith, Dores by Inverness, annual rent £5
Thomas Fraser, Blacksmith, Duhallow, Gorthlick, annual rent £14
Rev John Fraser, United Free Church, Dores, annual Rent £16
(This is a different Rev John Fraser; he was married with children)
The closest match for a death for James in 1907 is at Inverness/Inverness shire aged 59 (b 1848)
(bearing in mind that the 1891 census gives his birth year as 1846 and the 1901 as 1851)
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Thank you again for all the info. I am following up your details on Donald at the moment and will get back to you.
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Hi Both :)
irenaf...nice photos of the period for the post office in Dores http://southlochnessheritage.co.uk/dores/#jp-carousel-651 (main link here http://southlochnessheritage.co.uk/dores/
Monica
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Thank you for the photos - I wonder if that is the postmistress outside the PO or just an incidental photo for the cottage and view?
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I checked up Donald and obtained the relevant certs. His wife Johan died in 1926 and he was still alive then so unsure where he went after that.
You mentioned another website. The author of that site is in contact with me and we tend to share most of our new info. I see there is some data still to updated on it. It is unlikely that our James Fraser was not in Craig Dunain. There is another James Fraser, similar age, from same area who was termed a 'lunatic' on his death cert.
I note you also have the story re Donald and James. I checked with the various census and have the following problems with it. Father dies in 1881, Donald not living there at that point - Mother still living there and James running the blacksmith's business. If a property is rented then how can someone say the house is 'his' or someone elses. The mother would be the one who was 'Head' of the house. Knowing the family history - ie members who were born in 1878 and 1882 - and how they lived their lives, there would have been a considerable respect for the parent. I checked the census and found another 2 Fraser families (blacksmith's) in the area who had a Donald and James of similar ages. So there has to be some doubt about which family to which the story refers.
I really appreciate you taking time to uncover so much material which is so helpful in building up a background picture. Thank you.
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Monica, those photos of Dores are great! I also wondered if the ladies standing outside the PO were Frasers.
Irenaf, Regarding the lease on the smithy house – going from our own family Testaments, although I believe it to have been the general way of things in Scotland, after a father’s death the lease would pass to his eldest son with ‘liferent’ use of the dwelling going to the mother and sometimes also to unmarried sisters, so the son (the only one with an income) would have been responsible for the rent and his mother’s keep so long as she lived. It’s curious that there were two sets of brothers, James & Donald, all smiths, in Dores, isn’t it? And tantalising to know which set the story relates to, clearly there was a power struggle going on! It can be said though, that if they were your James & Donald, one would expect such a brotherly scrap to occur after the mother’s death (1892, I think?)
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As you know in the late 1800s engineering was growing and Inverness had some important works.
Northern Agricultural Implement Foundry Co. 1872-1895
Rose Street Foundry & Engineering Co. 1895-1945
As a blacksmith then described as a Springsmith in 1891 (see link http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Spring-Smith), Donald wouldn't have needed all the agro from fighting with his brother..and one would reason that as you say he would wait until his mother died (1892) . He would have had to transfer his blacksmith skills into something very skilled. His brother, Thomas, was not only a master blacksmith but invented various pieces of agricultural machinery, therefore it does not seem strange that Donald would seek a challenge. In the family most of the men in 2 generations were engineers of some sort.
Re the PO in Dores. If you look at the old photo of the PO and then at the Inn you will see that there is a space between them. That is were the James Fraser's smithy was. It was demolished though I am unsure when. Possibly after James died. Anyway thank you again for your input. All the info helps me to create a timeline and place family members and their events within it.
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I am not adding anything of importance to what you and Br1gau have been discussing, sorry :P
So, apart from the photo site (you might want to email them to see if they have any further info on the photo of the post office), thought you might like to see this recent story in the Guardian www.theguardian.com/technology/2001/jul/26/internetnews.onlinesupplement1 which names the Dores Post Office, as "the country's smallest post office" as at 2001.
In case you can see more recent family connections, www.family-announcements.co.uk/localworld/view/3140086/lily-fraser although the surname Fraser may not be uncommon in that immediate area.... ::)
Monica :)
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1902 PO Directory here with some possible family entries:
Fraser, James, blacksmith, Dores, by Inverness ... 5
Fraser, Rev. John, U.F.C., Dores... 16 (another Rev John in Petty)
http://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/pageturner.cfm?id=86044749&mode=transcription
Nothing really jumping out for Donald here on pg 77, same year 1902, in the Invernessshire County Directory http://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/pageturner.cfm?id=86044725&mode=transcription
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Just a final thought Irenaf. You were pondering yesterday about Rev John Fraser, (Licentiate of the Church of Scotland in 1901 census) having the middle name of Edward later in life. Perhaps he chose it to distinguish himself from the other Rev John Fraser, also Dores who was with the United Free Church.
Monica! Did I see you upthread poking your tongue out? :o
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You certainly did ;D Apologising to both of you for having done so little!
The only thing I have just found is that by the 1905 Valuation Rolls, they show:
1905 Owner - Edward Grant FRASER-TYTLER - HOUSE AND SMITHY DORES - DORES INVERNESS COUNTY Ref: VR103 / 35 / 467
I haven't viewed the image, just the search index result page.
Monica
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thank you to you both for your interesting info. Poor Lily Fraser, no relation, - she seemed so bright in 2001 with the new computer being installed. In the article she mentions the elderly, former postmistress (82) and then 12 years later Lily is in care and passes in her sleep. Really sad how quickly time passes by.
This PO is the new one that was built - probably had electricity and running water. When she talks about the original post mistress ( gosh 60 years ago must have been just post war!) this was surely for the new building.
Interesting re John's name - I had though in the records it was a C (as Cleather was a family name) so the E was a surprise. I must look back at the Church records and see if he was given two names at the christening.
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Hi.
I am a Canadian Fraser. My g.g.g grandfather was James Fraser from Balnafouch near Dores. He was married to Anne Fraser and worked as a blacksmith. He and Anne had 8-9 children between 1786 and 1810. One died young, 6 came to Canada and at least one stayed in Scotland and may well have been a blacksmith. I am not certain of the name. If you might be a descendant of the Scottish branch of the family, please let me know
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By the Way. James Fraser and Ann Fraser had a daughter Mary Fraser born about 1810.
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Hi WD,
You may want to edit your post to remove your email addy as this is prohibited on forum but let people know you are willing to send them your email by PM (Private Message).
To ensure the PM option is in place you could place another post just to notch up your 3 entries as it's to deter spamming.
Annie
PM's
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
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Thank you so much for your response to my request. I came to a halt a couple of years ago because I needed to go into this branch of the Frasers, and there are so many Frasers it was difficult to identify which ones were which. I have the Fraser family tree on Ancestry and so you are welcome to look at it. It is under Moodie2. I have started up again looking back at the early 1800s. You given me lots of clues so it shouldn't be too difficult to move on to the next stage. The James who was the blacksmith was my gg grandfather. (1802-1881). His oldest son Thomas (1834-1921) was also a blacksmith and lived in Errogie. the house and smiddy was only recently demolished. My plan for this coming winter was to dig a bit deeper into the period between 1746 and 1830 just to establish genuine links. I know there were a number of Fraser families at Balnafoich around 1800. I would like to keep in touch with you so we could share what information we have of this period. I will look up the people you have mentioned and see exactly if and where they fit in. Perhaps I should add that I was brought up in Inverness and knew my great aunts and of course my grandfather. One of my great aunts did not die until 1974, she was in her 90s. They visited and stayed with their grandparent in Dores village at times.
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To Br1gau
I note your response was some years ago so sorry. I missed it. However your idea was totally correct! It appears that this adopting another middle name was commonplace to distinguish yourself from someone else of the same name. Probably the very reason you suggested. Yes John seems to have adopted the Edward, again a family name from the past. He came to a very sad end in that he and his sister were involved in an accident in 1914/15 from which they each suffered from broken bones and then gangrene from which they both died. Thank you for your suggestion.
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My grandfather at age 60 was living at Balnafoich in 1871 with his family including my grandfather, age 8. I visited there in 1990-beautiful view of Loch Ness! I also have an old picture of the of the house with two women standing outside. Captioned on the back is Mrs. Carl??? Mrs. F. Tyther. There is no date.
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Thanks for the Information. The James and Anne Fraser who I am seeking were married in about 1784 (on Christmas Day). Their first son John was born in 1786 and the second son James in 1789. I suspect that the last born entered the world around 1805. James married in Canada to an Isabelle Grant who was the granddaughter of 'Angus the Robber' Grant who was sent into slavery in Barbados for 14 years after the '45. After being pardoned, he and his family went to the US for some time and end up, paradoxically, as United Empire Loyalist, being expelled to Canada after the Am Revolution. Talk about being consistent in choosing the loosing side. She married James Fraser in Martintown Ontario. I own the log cabin they built in 1818, still in good condition. So Thomas the Blacksmith may or may not have been from this family. Thomas' father, if his name was James, was not the son of the above James, who had already migrated to Canada..
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By the way, if you wish to continue the discussion about Balnafoich Frasers, please send your email address, or set up a gmail address where it would be possible to chat.
Thanks
WD FRASER
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Hi GordonF
Thanks for your contribution. It would be interesting to find out how long your grandfathers family stayed at the farm. The name of the lady you mentioned was Fraser-Tytler, the occupant of Aldourie House. I will check the census to see if the other female's name is mentioned. You didn't note your grandfathers family name. Even if not related still useful to help identify people at different times and their location. Could you share the photo? No problem if not.
Thanks, Irene
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HI WDFraser
Some very detailed info here and extremely helpful with dates etc. I will keep a note of it all and see how far I get. I tried to send you a PM, not sure if I was successful. You can get back to me if it was and I can always share my email address at that point, or continue using PM.
Irene
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Irene: I'm a Fraser. Great grandfather: Alexander(Wife: Margaret), Grandfather: Simon.
From at least the 1770's until at least 1841 the family was located at Wester Clunes, in 1851 and 1861 they are at Lettoch, 1871 they are at Balnafoich and in 1881 they are in the village of Dores.
I'll be happy to get a copy of the picture to you. Please PM me with your email.
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By the way, if you wish to continue the discussion about Balnafoich Frasers, please send your email address, or set up a gmail address where it would be possible to chat.
Thanks
WD FRASER
Hi there - do you have a date for the 1789 birth of James? Was chatting to someone about a similar Fraser, wondering if they are one & the same? Thanks
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Hi Irene
I was in Scotland in October and visited Balnafoich. Alastair Forbes, local historian and a remarkable person, took me to the Smiddy (now a cottage) where James Fraser worked in the late 1700s. I did not find his place of burial. But I did find the abandoned croft of his James' son John's wife was born in 1806 at Loinmarstaig near Pitlochry. I would very much like to see what you have found out about these Fraser's if Balnafoich. I am not proficient at the personal message system on this rootschat. But I will try to follow this link to keep in touch. WD Fraser
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By the way, I did not find the DOB of James as yet. Bill
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PSS. The Smiddy is standing and serves as a cottage but the original cottage was taken down.
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I have been searching for more details of my grandmother's grandfather - Hugh Fraser born 1826 at Fort Augustus. I have his obit and it quotes he was a blacksmith. Feel there must be some connection with your blacksmith as trades tended to run through the same family. He is buried at Dorres and lived at Torness. He is mentioned in several descriptions of the churchyard and the book Country called Stretterick. He lost his arm in an accident and became the "man with the iron hand" - so he should be relatively easy to identify. After he lost his arm his obit quotes him as the post runner for Urquhart - that has always puzzled me - perhaps he crossed Loch Ness by boat as post runners did travel large distances in those days. If you feel there is a connection please let me know Thanks Geoff Dixon
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Hi Geoff
I am uncertain. The James who was my GGG GF would have been born around 1760. He had 5 sons who came to Canada. It is possible that he had a grandson named Hugh born to a son who stayed in Scotland. The families did not correspond much after the migration, however I am not aware of a cousin of my GGGF loosing a limb. Best. WDF
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Stretterick = Stratherrick.
www.southlochnessheritage.co.uk/
Skoosh.
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James Fraser does not appear on the 1881 census in Dores because he was a voluntary patient at the Craig Dunain psychiatric hospital at the time. He is on the census entry at that address. I have been told by a family member that his sister Catherine left a position in Kent and returned to care for him in the family home. One of aspects of his mental health issues was that he would occasionally lock his parents and siblings out of the home.
This doesn't entirely account for the drama reported in the December 1887 Scottish Highlander of the conflict between Donald and James.
James continued to live with siblings Catherine and John until his death in 1907.
Catherine and John were in the same carriage accident in 1915, and both died as a result of their injuries. I suspect that John himself added 'Edward' as a middle name. His passion was geology and archeology, and he had articles published in those fields. He studied theology for a year at Aberdeen University and was ordained in the Church of Scotland, which at that time had more ordained ministers than positions available. Hence the description as 'probationer' or 'missionary' for his pulpit supply and interim ministry work.