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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Topic started by: jstjones on Wednesday 08 October 14 01:19 BST (UK)
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Newbie here, this is my first post so if I'm going about things the wrong way please set me straight. I feel like I'm searching for a certain pair of needles in a pile of needles the size of a haystack! lol.
My name is John William Jones and all I know about my father's father's family and ancestry is this:
My father's name is William H Jones, Jr. and he had a brother Owen H and a sister Glenna H.
My grandfather was William H Jones Sr. and he had brothers named John O, Hugh Owen, and Robert, and a sister Elizabeth.
My great grandparents came to the U.S. from Wales between 1883-1887, settled in Parsons, Luzerne County, Pennsylvania and were married about 1889. His occupation was Stone Mason.
- Owen JONES, born January 1862 in Wales, both parents born Wales.
- Catherine WILLIAMS, born December 1868 in Wales, both parents born Wales.
That's all I know! The usual search methods are pointless and I have no idea where to start or where to turn. Is my quest to find my Welsh roots hopeless?
Thank you in advance for any advice you might be able to offer.
John W. Jones
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat!
If I have located the correct marriage on Family Search, Owen married as Owen H Jones to Catherine Williams 26th June 1889 Luzerne, Pennsylvania, I see they were living with family there in the 1900 census, their is this potential family in the 1881 UK census:-
Hugh Jones 58 occ Slate Quarry Agent
Mary 48
Robert H 21 occ Slate Quarrier
OWEN H 19 occ Slate Quarrier
Hugh H 16 occ Slate Quarrier
William H 14
Elizabeth H 12
Ann H 9
Ellen H 5
Plus 1 Servant
All born Llandwrog, Caernarvonshire
Residing at 1, Fron Uchaf, Llandwrog, Caernarvonshire
Census Ref RG11/5564/34/23
Keyboard86
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@keyboard86:
Wow! That is amazing!! I've been looking for months and it seemed that half the people in Wales were named Jones and half of the male Joneses were named Hugh, Owen, or William! You nailed it in less than an hour! I am so elated, my heart is pounding! This is fantastic! I should have found this site a long time ago.
Thank you! Thank you!! Thank you!!!
John
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Hi sorry to say this but the Owen b c 1862 on the 1881 census is still in the UK on the 1891 census with his parents and some of the siblings ??? Census Ref RG12/4656/64/19
So if he went to the USA c 1886 then this cannot be him?
Will look for you again, so sorry.
It would possibly help if we could locate if he emigrated with any other siblings or even parents in 1886?
Keyboard86
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@keyboard86. Understandable, like I say there are LOTs of Owen, Hugh, William Joneses! BTW, I did some more checking on the U.S. side and they also had a son named Robert, which is another match in Owen's siblings. And his age and occupation in the Wales 1891 census matches. But then again there are just too many other Owen Joneses that could have been 19 at the time and a slate quarrier there.
If the one you found was still there in 1891 then that tears it. I will look for other U.S. census data for Luzerne County, PA to see if there is other family there. Also will try to find any passenger lists.
Thanks again!
John
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Found it! Arrived Philadelphia 30 MAR 1887 Ship "Indiana" from Liverpool.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-21551-3119-73?cc=1921481
Jones:
Hugh -Father (farmer)
Annie - Wife
Anne - Spinster
Owen - Labour
Robert - Labour
Owen's passenger index card states he was accompanied by four others. There was also a "E.H. Jones" (Male - Labour) on board.
Update: I'm beginning to have doubts that this is my great grandfather (Owen) and his father, mother, brother, sister. There are no Anne's in his descendants (there are just a couple of females and they are both Elizabeth (although they might have been Elizabeth Ann).
Also there are no ages to help confirm name matches, and we've already seen how unreliable simple name matches can be when they are Hugh and Owen Jones!
But my biggest concern is that I can find no other references to any of these people besides Owen in the Luzerne, PA area during the two decades after their arrival. It seems to me that they would have all settled together. It doesn't help that the U.S. 1890 Census was destroyed in a fire.
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Could be a stretch but found possible passenger record for Catherine Williams:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-21482-6901-96?cc=1921481
Arr. Philadelphia June 5, 1883 British Prince from Liverpool
Mrs. Williams - Wales, Wife 35
"Miss" 16 Spinster (this would make her the right age for Catherine)
"Child" 10
Unfortunately even if this is her, doesn't provide any more clues to her parentage other than mother's age. And that she had a brother or sister 6 years younger...
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The age is a bit off, but there is a death certificate for Owen Jones born 6 Oct 1864 in Wales and died 6 Oct 1913 in Parsons, PA. He was listed as a stone mason. No marital status is given for him. He died from shock following injury to his leg (compound dislocation). His parents were listed as One Jones and Annie Evens or Evans, both born Wales. The informant was Mr. or Mrs. C.W. Brown. His burial appears to be in City Cemetery, which may be a match for this - http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=jones&GSfn=owen&GSiman=1&GScid=2182879&GRid=121004437& - which shows his age as older than on the death certificate.
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There are some possible matches for Catherine as a widow in the census in Elmira, New York.
1915 - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/K9FY-3HP
1920 - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MJ2M-C4X
1925- https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KS9B-ZPH
1930 - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X7HP-8CR
Do those seem to fit with the later information you have?
www.fultonhistory.com has a lot of Elmira newspapers.
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Hi Shellyesq! Thank you immensely for your suggestions. I apologize for the delay in responding. I got very busy with work and home for a few weeks and had to put this research on hold. The Elmira census records for Catherine are definitely her as she was living there with my grandfather and granduncles, despite her calculated birth year varying from 1866 to 1870!
The death certificate you found is almost certainly my GGF. We know they lived in Parsons and that he was a stone mason. I have found corroborating census records from 1900 and 1910:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M3Q3-DQ3 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/M3Q3-DQ3)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MG4G-TCB (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MG4G-TCB) (Note: Owen was misread as Alvin)
I had no idea when he died (or how - but now I do! Thanks to you) but it all adds up. After Owen died in 1913 as the result of an accident, Catherine and her sons moved north, where you found them in the 1915 census.
The good news is that we now have more vital clues:
1) The Certificate of Death lists Owen's parents as: Owen Jones and Annie Evens (or Evans) both born in Wales.
2) In the 1925 census Catherine self-reports being born in "North Wales" so that narrows things down a bit for her but it should not imply that Owen and/or his parents were also from there.
I have yet to find any evidence to indicate that Owen and Catherine knew each other before they each came to America. Some documents infer that they both immigrated in 1886 or 1887 but not necessarily together. We do know that they married 26 JUN 1889 in Luzerne County, Pennsylvania. His residence is recorded as Parsons, PA and hers Miners, PA.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VF9V-44Y (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VF9V-44Y)
Interestingly both of their birth dates are recorded on the Marriage License with just the year, as if neither knew the day or month. And these are 1861 for Owen and 1866 for Catherine which puts them each a year or more older than many other inferences.
Anyway, I really appreciate the additional information you have provided!
Thank you!!
John Jones
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You're quite welcome!
I think Catherine later remarried. On www.fultonhistory.com, if you search for the exact phrase Catherine Jones Cahill, a death notice and obituary from 1951 come up. Her sons' names seem to match your Catherine. This appears to be her in the 1940 census - https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KQ5K-TNF A 1940 Elmira city directory gives an address for Catherine Jones, widow of Owen, at 432 Pine St., which matches the census record.
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This looks like Catherine's burial - http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Cahill&GSiman=1&GScid=66781&GRid=99726800& You could make a request on that site for a photo of the gravestone. Occasionally, they contain personal detail.
I have less experience with immigrants from Wales, but I find in researching Irish immigrants from that time period, that fluctuation in date/year of birth is pretty common. It may be possible that they didn't know their exact date of birth. I thought it was interesting that the date of birth given for Owen on his death certificate was Oct. 6, which was also the date of his death, but his age was listed as 49 years, 0 months, and 2 days. Either he died on his birthday, someone calculated the age wrong, or perhaps someone just randomly picked a date to fit his age.
It might also be worth noting on Owen's death certificate that his birthplace was listed as Wales Old. I don't know if that has any particular meaning.
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Shellyesq! You are fantastic! Once again I am wowed! I had no idea that my Great-grandmother had remarried. And the fultonhistory site is fantastic! After looking at the obits for her I found four articles about my dad. One announcing his marriage to my mother, and another 19 months earlier announcing his engagement - to another woman! Again, I had no idea! There was even a photo of her, and one of my mom too. They both look great! Then I found some other articles about my grandmother. Very interesting. So I can't thank you enough for enlightening me. I don't know if there is a way to send a PM on here but if there is I can provide more details.
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Over the holidays I met with my second cousins and their father told me that our greatgrandfather Owen H. Jones was from Caernarvon. Hopefully that will help narrow it down a bit.
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Welcome back, the only likely/possible marriage in the time frame and location is the Owen Jones to Ann Evans June qtr 1856 Carnarvon 11b 843 EDIT ( Not this one)! although their are other possibles in Anglesey.
A possible for Owen jnr in 1881census:-
Owen Jones 19 occ Stonemason Journeyman b Bethel, Caernarvonshire he is boarding at North Penrally, Caernarvonshire
Census ref RG11/5568/47/4
Keyboard86
PS what was the middle name for your father and his brother/sister i.e. "H"
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Hi Keyboard86! That's great question about the middle names that each start with H. My dad has passed, but when I was a child I asked him what the "H" stood for and he said "nothing, it's just H" and he always wrote it with no period after that. I don't know if that was also the case for his brother and sister, or for his father for that matter. Since may father is William H Jones, Jr. it stands to reason that his father was also William H Jones (Sr.) with just H for his middle name. However, he (my grandfather) had a brother named Hugh so if the H did stand for anything my guess would be that, at least for the males. For my aunt Glenna, who has also passed, I have no clue unless it too is just "H". But now that you have reignited this question I will reach out to my cousins to see if they know better.
Thanks!
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@Keyboard86:
BTW, it's also interesting to note that in the family you found earlier (see above) the middle name or initial for every one of the seven children (including three daughters) is "H"! Now that I have confirmed that the shire is Caernarvon I would be wondering if the 1891 U.K. census was in error by still showing Owen in the household, but because I have also since found his death certificate indicating different parents I can't even make that leap.
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Hi again, no I do not think the 1881 family I showed contains your Owen, in 1891 he is still with his parents Hugh/Mary and his occupation is still a Slate Quarrier.
The 1881 Owen I showed above is a more likely option due to the occupation bearing out his role in the USA?
It is finding him in 1871 which I have been having a great deal of trouble with eg with parents Owen & Ann!
Keyboard86
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Keyboard86,
Yes, I think you are on to something. Check out Huwcyn's comments at:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=709573.new#new
Thank you.